Can anyone give us all the stats for EA?
I gnow that the defense per enemy affected is 18.75%
But what about:
Duration
Recharge
End Cost
End Drained
Range(compare this to Chilling Embrace's range, please)
Thanks
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Okay, its like this...
Lets say the defense on primary armors (FA/GA) were capped at 30%, and your secondary armor (WI) were left at around 20%, and Chilling Embrace still offered its 25% Recharge rate reduction.
And then lets say we wholesale switched EA from DEF to RES, keeping the buff the same.
Under this scenario, from 1 to 4 mobs from +0 to +6 level mobs, Invuln wins through every comparison.
At exactly 5 mobs, Ice is marginally ahead, but Invuln still gains and eventually exceeds Ice at +5/+6 level mobs.
And from 6 to 10 mobs Invuln again takes the lead because Ice simply doesn't get any better at that point (whether the 5 mob cap is in place for EA or not).
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I've been thinking about the fact that Ice Tankers have only Defense, and I actually like that.
I don't want the devs to go ahead with the EA changes since is the only way we can get our defenses high enough under extreme conditions (Again: Against stuff like DE's quartz beacons the only way we are able to tank is by adding more and more mobs to the group)
To be honest in general we can tank just as good as any other tanker, what I'd like to see is for the devs to code Monsters, AV's and the likes to do only 50% of the damage (-psionics) that they currently do against Ice Tankers. Why not psionics? Because no tanker has a +Res Psionics power (Stone provides defense agianst psionics only)
It may sound hard to do, but the mechanics are in place already! After all spawned AV/Monsters cone purple "even level" to everybody... In fact if you go to the Monster Island on Test the monsters there don't have a level number anymore! I imagine that's true for all other zone monsters/AV's. How hard could it be to add an extra field that tells the monster to inflict only 50% of the damage?
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Can anyone give us all the stats for EA?
I know that the defense per enemy affected is 18.75%
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That number I don't know if is for Test's EA or Live Server's EA. From geko's post it could be either way.
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But what about:
Duration
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45 Seconds
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Recharge
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60 Seconds
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End Cost
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20-ish End Points
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End Drained
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Depends, even level minions is about 1/3 of their end.
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Range(compare this to Chilling Embrace's range, please)
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Have you seen Tanker/Blaster's Ice Patch? Larger than that. 1.5 times larger maybe? That would make EA to have 3-4 times the range of CE.
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Thanks
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NP.
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I've been thinking about the fact that Ice Tankers have only Defense, and I actually like that.
I don't want the devs to go ahead with the EA changes since is the only way we can get our defenses high enough under extreme conditions (Again: Against stuff like DE's quartz beacons the only way we are able to tank is by adding more and more mobs to the group)
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I'm there with you. Again, I'm sticking to my stance of the following that I made a few posts back:
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This means that adding a flat Resistance is not a good choice. You need to add something that tapers off like Defense does when fighting higher level enemies. Or something entirely outside of the realm of either DEF or RES.
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To me since adding RES doesn't solve the problem, then its not the correct solution. And something else is needed.
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To be honest in general we can tank just as good as any other tanker, what I'd like to see is for the devs to code Monsters, AV's and the likes to do only 50% of the damage (-psionics) that they currently do against Ice Tankers. Why not psionics? Because no tanker has a +Res Psionics power (Stone provides defense agianst psionics only)
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Yeah... that's the kind of things I'm looking for when I say "Or something entirely outside of the realm of either DEF or RES." It has to be more creative then just adding RES to balance properly.
For example, one thing I looked at, that doesn't help all that much is to have mobs always have a fixed accuracy when fighting an Ice Tanker -- meaning level difference doesn't come into play. Like I said thought it doesn't help, but these are the kinds of things that need looking at.
Also I 100% agree. vs minions/lts/bosses we generally do just fine (in the absense of them having an ACC buff or us having a defense debuff). AVs and Monsters we're not as successful against, unless we take an number of pool powers to compensate.
The only thing I don't like about your idea is that it doesn't solve the other issues we have. But it does target one of the more annoying ones. I'd like to see AVs have a similar change versus us to be honest. Here's the list as a reminder:
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- superior or buffed accuracy (occurs in the game a lot)
- defensive debuffs (occurs in the game a lot)
- certain pets (Swarms) or other powers that appear to be auto-hit (though these may just be insanely high accuracies, this is unclear and unproven)
- Archvillains/Monsters (due to large attacks designed to overcome the resistances of high Resistance, these attacks will one-shot an Ice Tanker)
Not to mention we have more weaknesses than any other tanker:
* Fire
* PSI
* a glass jaw
* the fact that our primary buff is something we have to manage rather than something that works automatically for us
* streaks in the RNG
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Right now, it looks like the solutions to prevent one-shot death are ablative armor, damage resistance, reduced damage from AV's/Monsters or extra health. The only one that affects AV's/Monsters directly would be the reduced damage. All the others would make us very powerful against minions, etc.
I'm not sure what the number should be but would 50% be enough? Didn't I read that someone was hit by Bobcat for 3,000+?
I for one would love for this change to go into effect because AV's are a big part of this game especially in the upper levels. No one wants to stand on the sideline watching the rest of the team take them on.
The other side of this coin is to just reduce their attack damage for everyone and have damage resistance scale to level.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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Yeah... that's the kind of things I'm looking for when I say "Or something entirely outside of the realm of either DEF or RES." It has to be more creative then just adding RES to balance properly.
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An excellent idea. As Snorii mentioned, we could reduce damage against AV/Monsters by something like 50%. But I have a feeling they are less likely to hard-code something like that for Ice tankers. Imagine all the special requests for hard-coded changes to follow.
I'd like to see the Damage Debuff. It's better then resistance, and team friendly. Place it on one of our AoE toggles, and it only helps us against melee targets (unlike Resistance). 25% or 50% or whatever... Saves us the one-shotting, and scales well with level.
I'm all for this idea. I'd support an Ice Tanker rally in favor of this movement...
Who's with me???
I'm with Circ on this one: I will not stand for a proposed change to be Dmg Res of any sort for Ice Tankers. I like being the Defense black sheep. I do however really like the idea of maybe a DefDebuff on Chilling Embrace and a Damage Debuff on Icicles (or the other way around) with increased Fire resistance for Permafrost and Psy Def for EA. Along with normal aggro and Enddrain abilities to all targets within EA's range, I think this would be a great fix to the Ice set.
I want to see what Geko has to say about our suggestions/data.
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I'd like to see the Damage Debuff. It's better then resistance, and team friendly. Place it on one of our AoE toggles, and it only helps us against melee targets (unlike Resistance). 25% or 50% or whatever... Saves us the one-shotting, and scales well with level.
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This I agree actually sounds better then resistence, any easy fix to make it work and not over power resistance tankers is to hard code the AV/Monsters with a certain percentage of unresistable damage, just like blasters in PvP. With lower damage the unresistable percentage wont affect resist tankers but would help bring ice up to the resist lvl of tanking.
Dirges
The only thing I don't like about the damage debuff is we will still be susceptible to alpha stikes from AV's which will still one-shot us before the debuff goes into effect. (At least that is how I imagine it would be.)
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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The only thing I don't like about the damage debuff is we will still be susceptible to alpha stikes from AV's which will still one-shot us before the debuff goes into effect. (At least that is how I imagine it would be.)
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I can say, if it's in Chilling Aura, that I can rush an AV, and expect it to frost him over before he pops his Nuke. Sure, it's still a risk, but usually they don't fire it off till you're in range, so if you're fast about it, it'll work. With a 50% debuff, asumming Damage/(1 + %), a lone Ice tank would reduce the damage to two-thirds. Another Ice tank would reduce to half damage... and so on.
Or, you just pull around a corner. He'll be next to you and frosted/debuffed before he can nuke, and you should survive the attack.
Now I'm sure I may get surprised by an attack, or sometimes I may not make it to him in time. But it works a lot better, and would be a tactical consideration, instead of waiting to die. 
Reading your post, points out what worries me about putting the Damage Debuff in Icicles. With Icicles, I have a miss chance, per attack tick. So, if I drop 3 SO acc into it, and close to range, and hope like hell I don't get that 5% miss, I'd be fine. Otherwise, I'd be no better off, since he'd not be debuffed. And what about later, if it misses mid-battle, and he slams on me a few times. I think Tanks deserve a "sure thing" when it comes to bread & butter powers that keep them alive.
I love the concept of a damage debuff attached to something in the Ice armor line. I think this could be very viable, and help Ice tanks match the other tanks. Be kinda fun, too.
I proposed something similar for Ice melee, attaching a resistance debuff to an attack from the set- and I like the concept (though I'd make that tohit instead of auto).
I also think CE would be the place to stick this effect. Of course it'd require an end cost increase, but frankly there's almost no reason to slot that power as of now in any case and this would certainly give us better reason.
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Reading your post, points out what worries me about putting the Damage Debuff in Icicles. With Icicles, I have a miss chance, per attack tick. So, if I drop 3 SO acc into it, and close to range, and hope like hell I don't get that 5% miss, I'd be fine. Otherwise, I'd be no better off, since he'd not be debuffed. And what about later, if it misses mid-battle, and he slams on me a few times. I think Tanks deserve a "sure thing" when it comes to bread & butter powers that keep them alive.
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JJ, it's not like Icicles' Damage Debuff would wear off between hits, it's effect would last for atleast 2 more ticks. Then if it misses you have to hope the next one hits, which is good because then the power has its downsides, just like all powers should.
Wow, I really like this idea of a damage debuff and a defence debuff. Although I do I see the PBAoE versions being a big problem to balance with it's massive step on the toes of Defenders. Perhaps, like somebody suggested that if a damage debuff was fairly slight and put on icicles which has a short range and a to-hit chance it could be acceptable. I REALLY like this idea. I too want to be the black sheep of tanks. I like a challenge and being different from everybody else. I chose a tank when there weren't many in the high levels and now they are a dime a dozen. I chose an ice tank simply because everybody said they sucked. And other than a few small issues, I think they are pretty cool, pun intended. But this idea is GREAT.
Hell, I was gonna suggest, since they 'balanced' Energy Absorbtion, I was gonna suggest that it gets a to-hit buff like Invincibility does. Seems only fair. But when I read that idea, it made perfect sense. This would even give ice tanks a tiny edge in psi damage to make it a damage debuff like that. Make it a fraction of one a defender would get. Just enough to take the edge off people who can one and two shot us internal squishies(read: Ice Tank). Hell, set an AV attack as a standard to hold it too. Just enough def buff to survive a nuke or whatever from an AV. Or make two AV shots into 3 or so.
Anyway, great idea guys.
I do like the idea of adding a damage debuff to Icicles; as it stands now, the relatively small amount of damage it does hasn't been enough for me to take it, given its prohibitive Endurance cost. However, my only concern with this is how much would it need to do, to be effective?
After all, it's often the alpha strike (ie the very first attack) that sends an Ice Tanker to the floor, so the debuff would have to be large enough to make a difference right away, while at the same time it can't be so much that Bosses and lower-classed villians are nearly dropped to null damage. Also, there aren't Damage Debuff enhancements presently in the game, so we would have no method of enhancing how much debuffing we would be doing.
And it also doesn't address the problem of Permafrost still being completely useless for our set. There are virtually no enemies that use Ice-based attacks; the only ones that come to mind are Council Marksmen, Outcast with Ice powers, Crey Scientists and Crey Cryo Armors.
Instead, I'd like to offer a counter-proposal. One, place a small amount of S/L resistances into Permafrost. The amount an Invulnerability scrapper gets from RPD (9.375% base + 1.875% per SO if I remember correctly). Secondly, make the Damage Debuff into an Accuracy Debuff. This works more in theme with the Ice Tanker set (by making us that much harder to hit), plus since there are Accuracy Debuff Enhancements, we can tweak them if we so desire.
EDIT: Added the Outcasts to the list of enemies that do Ice damage.
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JJ, it's not like Icicles' Damage Debuff would wear off between hits, it's effect would last for atleast 2 more ticks. Then if it misses you have to hope the next one hits, which is good because then the power has its downsides, just like all powers should.
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Yes, the effect may not wear off between ticks. Even if it lasts 5 seconds after "any" hit from Icicles, we still have the same issue.
If the first "attack" made by icicles misses, I don't have my damage debuff. I still get one-shotted. The "downside" to CE is that, like Icicles, you have to close to melee range before it kicks in. Do you take stealth to sneak in? Do you take SS to rush quickly? Or pull, without using a power pull, and use a corner to your advantage?
CE seems to fit the bill perfectly, and would even fit the idea of the power (frostbite on fingers, so mobs are hitting weaker). I'm not at all against changing both Perma-frost (a wasted power) or Hibernate (needs work before it's even close to Unstop. or Granite). But I just feel that Icicles is still a "roll of the dice", much like we face now with the defense cap. Never-mind that powers that debuff our accuracy would cripple Icicles too...
I believe that a 50% damage debuff, that nets a single Ice Tanker a 33% reduction in damage from any target in melee range, is more then fair. (100/(1 + .5)=66.6) The power is not much different then a melee Enervating field. It would stack with other powers of the sort, but between diminishing returns, and no Damage Debuff enhancements, I can't see Ice becoming a FOTM because of it.
But it's a juicy carrot for taking an Ice Tanker. And from what others above are posting, this idea seems popular.
Would Rad defender/controllers be upset? Our Damage Debuff is not also a Resistance Debuff, like Enervating Field. Their power remains better then ours in that light.
Any Rad's out there feel they would be cheated by this, I would be glad to hear the discussion...
I'm all for the 50% decrease if the devs will hard code the change, but as someone already mentioned it will cause quite a stir for more hard code changes from various classes. I'm all for the damage debuff as well if they want to go that route.
I still think that they should just reduce the overall attack damage from AV's/Monsters and have resistance scale to level or have unresistable damage from AV's/Monsters. This would be a universal change that would hopefully allow us to tank AV's as well as anyone else provided we have enough defense. This would at least fix the one-shot problem.
As for Energy Absorption, I don't see any reason to change the power. I would at least like to see the taunt effect and endurance drain remain for any enemies in range.
*Edited out complaint* (sorry for my lapse)
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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I proposed something similar for Ice melee, attaching a resistance debuff to an attack from the set- and I like the concept (though I'd make that tohit instead of auto).
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Not sure if this would be such a good idea, since there's more than just ice tankers that take Ice Melee. Could you imagine a Fire tanker with a resistance debuff? Stack that with Burn, and oh my...the FOTMs would pour in.
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I also think CE would be the place to stick this effect. Of course it'd require an end cost increase, but frankly there's almost no reason to slot that power as of now in any case and this would certainly give us better reason.
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Hey, I slotted that power....with Taunts
Perhaps they should just revert Hoarfrost back to the old days, when instead of giving +HP, it gave +res to S/L....
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Is it just me or is does anyone else feel crazy trying to defend Ice Armor? I feel like I'm at my wit's end trying to explain that we are in no way overpowered. It just seems so obvious to me that we are in fact quite the opposite. 
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Agreed... For some time now, on the Tanker boards, the few Ice Tankers who post on the boards had been asking for changes made to the set. Only after seeing how pitiful Hibernate was, did I jump on and start getting involved.
As for now, I think people figure this thread has a very good chance that the Dev's are watching. We're hoping that if they're looking to make changes to EA, they're also willing to throw us a bone.
The Universal changes (less Tank damage from AV/Monsters), or unresistable damage, would have far reaching effects. A single change to add a Damage Debuff would be one power changed, and one thing to test. Much more in scope, I would hope.
We'll see if Geko ever swings by, and lets us know if we should branch this off to another thread. (Blatent Dev Name-dropping)
Hmm still no posts from a red name? That's disappointing.
I like the damage debuff idea. And if it's at 50% does it really need enhancements anyway? Sounds pretty good to me and should help in avoiding the 1-shot death syndrome.
You know you'd think with all the posts about Perma-frost sucks, Perma-frost needs to be fixed and don't ever take Perma-frost that the Devs might actually I don't know look at improving it?
on Virtue:
Darkennedy dark/sonic Def
Lena Slayer NightWidow
Vengeful Woman Energy/Rad Corruptor
Hella Effing Cool cold/sonic def
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As for now, I think people figure this thread has a very good chance that the Dev's are watching.
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Just so we don't have people slamming the devs or calling them out on this thread, since that generally gets a thread ignored or locked -- which none of us want to happen -- I will let you know that my received PMs state explicitly that the chances that this is being looked into and this thread is being read by the devs are 100%.
So lets keep to pertinent well rounded discussion and not call them out, because they are already watching.
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I will let you know that my received PMs state explicitly that the chances that this is being looked into and this thread is being read by the devs are 100%.
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Guilty as charged. I didn't mean to call out the devs, nor do I think our screaming "DEVS FIX THIS NOW" will do anything but make them turn a deaf ear. My hope was if the Devs didn't want us to continue the thread on the "cool ideas to help ice tankers", they'd just let us know. I'm all for making their lives easier, if we can.
Like Circeus said... please don't spam the Devs on this thread. They just turn on a spam filter anyway, and your comments go the the junk folder of posts.
And thanks for the info on your PM's. Glad to have confirmation.
I think we can all agree that Energy Absorption needs to be left alone until fixes to Ice Armor come. It is our only defense... literally.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
First off, I hope that none of my posts have looked as I were complaining to/whining to/accusing the devs of doing things that weren't helping Ice Tankers; I honestly tried to keep my posts impassioned without being flammatory or derogatory. Enough of my friends on Virtue have heard that (and to them, I extend my heartfelt thanks for listening to me gripe and bellyache about this since I've played here, and putting up with me).
The fact that they are listening gives me a sense of relief. I love my Ice Tanker Halley's Comet, and would love to be able to continue experiencing all the game has to offer with her. The current state of EA on Test had me quite concerned that even being able to tank was going to be extremely hard without a respec and lots of work.
EDIT: Typing on 3 hours sleep = lots o' typos 
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Not sure if this would be such a good idea, since there's more than just ice tankers that take Ice Melee. Could you imagine a Fire tanker with a resistance debuff? Stack that with Burn, and oh my...the FOTMs would pour in.
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I considered this, but I wasn't actually talking about a -major- debuff. On the order of 10%, single target, requiring a tohit roll- Ice Melee's damage is so amazingly bad compared to other sets (pulling data from here, but I verified it myself) that even with 10% more damage it tops out at well under any other tanker melee class. And if you think fire/ice isn't already FoTM, I'd ask for a hit off that pipe. *grin* Plus, you ever seen -anyone- use the level 9 power from ice melee?
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Hey, I slotted that power....with Taunts
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So did I...originally. When deciding how I wanted to respec, I copied over to test and tested a -lot- of combos. Turns out, the 'taunt' from CE 'naturally' lasts around 2 seconds. So when you 6 slot it, you're -still- talking almost zero taunt time. Verify for yourself, of course, but I cannot justify putting slots there for now.
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Perhaps they should just revert Hoarfrost back to the old days, when instead of giving +HP, it gave +res to S/L....
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Huh.....
Well, I kind of like it, but I think we need the hp boost more.
And I'd like to chime in that I really am kinda proud of the ice tanks posting on here (all 10 of us...*sigh*), since we really have been constructive, polite, and willing to explore/discuss various options.
In that vien.....I know it's been suggested before, but I thought I'd throw it out to this crowd. Add in a small amount of resistance (being oneshotted is so not fun it's absurd- there's just not a thing cool with it), and some +regen. I know Stone has this, but I don't think anyone is about to claim that Stone and Ice are too similar. As it is, not only is Health near required, but almost every Ice tank I know slots it out- because without that, Swarms -hurt-.
Of course, turning us into another regen with more HP is not a brilliant strategem. Just wanted to throw it out there.
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Under this scenario, from 1 to 4 mobs from +0 to +6 level mobs, Invuln wins through every comparison.
At exactly 5 mobs, Ice is marginally ahead, but Invuln still gains and eventually exceeds Ice at +5/+6 level mobs.
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Agreed. So I'd say they'd need to up the defense on FA/GA to a higher level... and/or WI while they are at it. A balance could be found that would be closer to Invincibility, with us having higher defense, and Chilling Aura to slow things down. I'm not saying they could do a 1:1 swap on EA and make things work. They'd have to run some numbers, and get things set right. I still vote for a damage debuff.
I guess this thread is being derailed. I saw the patch notes, and assuming this is the "quick fix" for the arena before a more substantial patch down the pipe, I'll just keep my fingers crossed.
Does the new version of EA, currently on test, work? or does it break our set?
My feeling is no, it does not break the set. We have just as many strengths and weaknesses as we had before, and this power is now somewhat more capped, to avoid possible abuse. It's a known issue that we don't endo drain more then the 5 mobs we hit, so I will assume the fix for that is forthcoming.
A rebalance of the Ice Tank set seems destined for an Issue to be named later, or perhaps an after Issue mega patch.