Issue 4 Changes for Gravity - Official Thread
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2005-03-22 14:26 in Developers' Corner
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Lvl 50 grav/rad/psy here.
Been a while since I've been here, and in light of some soloing and occasional teaming on test... new wormhole still gets my nay vote.
It loses a lot of the utility that it had for pinpoint control. And I can safely say it isn't replaceable with TP Foe. For all those who say 'TP Foe is a pool power! We don't want a glorified pool power!' here's a few other examples:
Scrapper melee attacks and boxing. They do the same stuff, so why do scrappers have attacks?
Stealth and Superior Invisibility. They do the same stuff too, so why Sup. Invis?
It's not a bad thing to have an all-around-more-powerful version of a pool power in our primary. And wormhole-on-live is exactly that.
The new wormhole is, as has been described, poorer for managing enemies. The scatter + teleport + knockback causes confusion even if you drop them in the same place you picked them up from. It's another power for us to gain agro from our team-mates with.
In addition, it needs a lot more slot love to be effective without endangering the team. As it stands we already need to dedicate a lot of slots to other powers (GD, GDF, Singularity, secondaries to make up for our control gap). It's nice having powers that don't need significant slotting to be effective instead of downright dangerous.
Finally - PvP. TP Foe is proving to be quite a nice PvP trick. It'd be nice to be able to do similar, only with the power to pinpoint-place that squishy near the scrapper or in the debuff field of tar pit. But unfortunately doing so nets you the scrapper that has been tasked to protect the squishy too - meaning that TP Foe is now a better PvP power than wormhole. Nice to see a pool power outperforming its primary power counterpart.
We need some love, and particularly we need some love in the 12-17 range. Whenver I RSK down, that's where I feel the pain the most. Changing a lvl 26 power that worked fine thanks is not the solution - even if it gets whined about a lot on the forums. Of course you only see the whines - typically people who are happy don't comment. Now, of course, we have just reason to.
The sad thing is a rad/dark defender can control better from 12-17 than a grav/rad controller. When a defender secondary provides better control than a controller primary then something is wrong.
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Exactly. Hell, when you add up Tar Patch+Fear+Petrifying gaze+dark servants, even the defender Dark Miasma can achieve equal or better control than Grav. Fear alone recycles so much faster than GDF it is almost laughable.
We asked for a fix to the control gap. The control gap is present very early on and waiting for 26 levels (really more like 27 or 28 becuase it needs slots) is hardly a viable answer.
Moreover, the "answer" is more problematic than it is helpful. Look, the new wormhole may be a great new novelty power with a great new coolness factor for Grav. Im sure we can find some interesting uses for it. Still, It does not adequitly address the control gap effectively in a team environment. In fact it can hinder it.
GDF drops, you are still waiting for it to recycle... you need to get some control over the mobs again... you wormhole the group... you have just removed every melee teammate's target. You have removed them, sent them flying away with all the precision of a shotgun full of rock salt and have now caused them to scatter all over the room in random confused directions. Thats if you grab them all and don't miss some. Some of them are now possibly shooting at you from right where they were... now half a room away from the rest. How many times are you going to do that before your teammates tell you to quit doing it or they will kick you from the group? Even if you do take the necessary time (because we all know how patient your teammates can be in waiting for you to line things up just so...) to shoot them into a corner and then apply CF onto the group to keep them from scattering (now using two powers in conjunction to do what most controllers do with one and paying for it in stam and time) then you still have to deal with the fact that you just potentially caused a wasted high stamina draining attack from half your teammates who only struck air where the mobs "used to be". And now they get to chase them over to the corner... until the next time you use Wormhole... yet again adding to their aggrivation.
Hey, you're just trying to do your job and these are the tools the devs are giving us. I'm sure the melees will understand and the next time they have a choice between you and say an Earth or a Fire or an Ice controller, or hell even a Dark/Rad defender... I'm sure you and your team friendly wormhole will be considered fairly. After you get to level 27 and catch up in ability (sorta) with those other sets that is.
Wormhole may be a neat new power as I said... It is not however an answer to what we have been asking for. It simply is not. It does not address the issues faced by Gravs in the teens and early twenties. And even after you do get it, it becomes such a situational and potentially aggrivating power as to make it's use a detriment in many cases. To your team and yourself in the long run.
I'm still of the firm opinion that it would be much better to add an AOE disorient to Propel, to give us our second AOE control power. it comes in at a much earlier level and doesn't change the functionality of the wormhole. (I prefer the old version)
Upsen.
The problem with the argument of scrappers hating you for wormhole is that's not a tactic you'd use with any powerset.
If you are doing anything else to a scrapper's target besides holding, flopping around on ice or a quake, or laying down a targeted debuff... you're doing something wrong. If you immobilize them, they are attacking you rather than the melee guy. If you disorient them, you're still making the tanker lose aggro and making them walk away from the scrapper. If you phase them, you're sure to be kicked from the group fast. Even if you had an AoE lift, launching them in the air and dropping them with precision, the problem still exists.
Mob control is more for the mobs that your melee guys are NOT handling at that time.
Just don't target the power at the guys near your melee combatants. You shouldn't have been doing that with the old wormhole either.
--
My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
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The problem with the argument of scrappers hating you for wormhole is that's not a tactic you'd use with any powerset.
If you are doing anything else to a scrapper's target besides holding, flopping around on ice or a quake, or laying down a targeted debuff... you're doing something wrong.
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You are missing the point here. The whole point is we were asking for something exactly along those lines. An AoE control function to fill the control gap we currently are plagued with. Like an Ice slick or a quake or a secondary hold, etc... thats not what we've received.
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If you immobilize them, they are attacking you rather than the melee guy.
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Which is why we need another AoE control option other than GDF since the only other thing we have is an immobilize which is little more than a "please kill me" power. Even still, at least the mob is still right there for the melee to attack and kill, yes? You haven't ported them away, knocked them back and sent them strolling all over the combat field.
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If you disorient them, you're still making the tanker lose aggro and making them walk away from the scrapper.
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Yes, but at least the melee tank and melee scrapper still has them targetted, is still right on top of them, and can still attack/kill the mobs by just following a step or two behind their target.
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If you phase them, you're sure to be kicked from the group fast.
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Which is exactly why Wormhole with an AoE teleport, AoE knockback AND and AoE Stun/Disorient all in one fell swoop is just as bad an idea in any team situation involving a melee. You might as well have phased them out.
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Even if you had an AoE lift, launching them in the air and dropping them with precision, the problem still exists.
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No, lift does not break a melee's attack. The mob is still essentially in the exact same position relative to the melee and doesnt move except for straight up and from my experience even the knockup doesn't interfere with a melees attack landing if the melee has already triggered the attack. If not it's just a matter of a half sec wait till they hit the ground right at their feet again.
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Mob control is more for the mobs that your melee guys are NOT handling at that time.
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Thanks for the tip. Your insight is astounding.
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Just don't target the power at the guys near your melee combatants. You shouldn't have been doing that with the old wormhole either.
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Dude... I don't even know how to respond to this last bit... oh, yes I do... the old wormhole was not used as an AoE control power... and as it stands... the new one won't see much use as such either.
But therein lies the problem. Wormhole is not (either in old or current incarnation) ideal for controlling non-engaged enemies, because they wake up entirely too soon and they hate *you*, the controller.
If you're after non-killzone control, dimension shift is still superior to wormhole in either of its incarnations.
A controller has two key roles: preventing additional agro, and killzone control.
Preventing agro is fine with sleeps, etc. Dimension shift actually does this job remarkably well up to the point that your team-mates become interested in the additional agro.
Wormhole on live is pure killzone control. It can be used to selectively move a specific target to a specific point - that can be one of:
1) enemy defender removal. DE spores, sappers, sky raider FF generators, tsoo sorcerers, rikti guardians, etc. are all enemy defenders, and can benefit with being singled out of a group and dealt with sepeartely (either by a lone scrapper or fed to your singularities)
2) debuff management. similar to above, but can be used to move your own debuffs to more tactically significant places. As a /rad, I feel this advantage more than others. But if you're teaming with a defender there's a good chance you'll meet someone else who uses anchor powers. They will like you if you move their debuff-anchors into more useful locations. Especially if one of them has done a runner from the fight then got snagged by an accidental immobilize.
3) too many bosses. Sometimes a scrapper may be in over their heads. Having two red-con paragon protectors all over you is never fun. I have yet to meet a scrapper who has objected ot me taking the PP he wasn't playing with and feeding it to the singularities. It's faster than hitting GD twice, and more effective too.
You can't do any of this with new wormhole. What you can do is very briefly disorient a group. If its a killzone group, you create player agro - anything from 'don't do that please' to 'you have been kicked from the team'. If it isn't, you get a similar experience to using crushing field without any additional support, then show your superior concrete-kissing skill.
Wormhole as it was did not favor the brute-force controller. It was a finesse power, not a brute one. It's been changed to a brute power. It has some very nice looking short-term effects, but it doesn't appear to have staying power.
And - as has been said many times - it doesn't address the key grav issue.
Just to add fuel to the fire I went back and found RedWarlock's summary on the controller issues thread. I now quote the Grav portion, just trying to get some historical perspective on the issue.
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Gravity Controllers:
47 people seemed to agree the devs need to replace Dimension Shift all together or give it a severe fix (most actually said just get rid of it)
losing 2 entropy, RedGuy, anachrodragon, Dwimble, Robson, Continuum, _Ishtar_, Gravo_Matric, Pheroz, Airhammer, Tetra, Xugumad, Ami_Chan, Detain, MasonL87X, killawatt, rockdeity, Relentless, Ariel, Constant_Motion, Manipulon, FireIron, BlackSly, Psi_Wren, Defender_King, _Pax_, Aristotle, Voidchild, Zloth, Circuitboi, Bloodspike, Fire_Drake, Dr_StrangeFate, Dark_Angel, Kosmos, Idlemind, PsychoKinetic, Gravaton1, Lycanus, Circuitboi, SymonStar, Cinder Imp, Galaxy124, Psychokinetic, Heroic, Darth Mord, Vermin010
3 people I found felt that Dimension shift is fine
Itioteraser, Seniara, Ayradyss
29 people seemed to agree that Gravity generally needs a boost across the board
losing2entropy, Pheroz, Jasmijn, Heroic, Gigglebunny, Ariel, Airhammer, Cyynfull, DarthMord, Thief, Starfox, Liekki, Drakana, Amethyst, BlackSly, Defender_King, _Pax_, MildMannered, JF_Carbon, Manipulon, Kosmos, Major_Force, Ramas100, LFire, Beyondthepixal, Dreamlord, Cyberzerker, Blue-bandana, Heroic
3 people I found seemed to feel that Gravity is just fine, leave it alone.
Killawatt, ket_Lad, SymonStar
28 people seemed to agree Propel needs more damage and/or lower endurance cost
losing2entropy, Detain, PsychoKinetic, Gravo_Matic, Dwimble, Kendal, Tetra, BlueBattler, MasonL87X, KalythR, Starfox, Constant_Motion, Telok, FireIron, Psi_Wren, Aristotle, VoidChild, Dr_Strangefate, Ground_Force, BattleFlag, Idlemind, Paveway, Grav_Sink, Red Warlock IMcurious, QuinnBlackwatch, Heroic, Darth Mord
20 people seemed to agree Propel needs shortened casting time
Detain, Airhammer, Xugumad, BlueBattler, MasonL87X, KalythR, Rockdeity, LAKmastin, Constant_Motion, Manipulon, Telok, Fire_Drake, Idlemind, Paveway, Grav_Sink, Gravaton1, Kharisma, IMcurious, QuinnBlackwatch, Darth Mord
16 people seemed to agree Propel needs a cone
_Ishtar_, Detain, Gigglebunny, Tetra, MasonL87X, Rockdeity, Constant_Motion, FireIron, Aristotle, BattleFlag, Sandolphan, Cinder_Imp, Buji, QuinnBlackwatch, Heroic
15 people seemed to agree Propel needs something
anachrodragon, continuum, Gigglebunny, Pheroz, Nishnig_Jones, Ariel, Nightheat, Zloth, Circuitboi, Bloodspike, PsychoKinetci, SorenXero, Payne, Darth Mord, Vermin010
1 person seemed to feel Propel doesnt need a change
Robson
21 people seemed to feel Wormhole needs a fix such as:
shorten casting time; and/or increase damage; and/or have no Knockback; and/or increase range, magnitude & chance of disorient & let TP work on bosses; and/or decrease the cast/recharge time; and/or Reduce Endurance Cost; and/or falling damage needs to be credited to the player, not the environment; and/or it should be TP foe AND TP friend; and/or Wormhole just needs some serious fixing
_Ishtar_, Detain, Contnuum, Gravaton1, LAKmastin, Gravo_Matic, EinValentine, Dwimble, Kosmos, Tetra, Psi_Wren, Grav_Sink, Pheroz, MasonL87X, Ariel, FireIron, Fire_Drake, Aristotle, Cinder_Imp, Heroic, Darth Mord
7 people seemed to feel Wormhole is not that useful, and/or should be replaced with something better
Starfox, Defender_King, _Pax_, Espionage, Flamechild, Psychokinetic, Darth Mord
3 people seemed to feel Wormhole is great, leave it alone
Robson, Zloth, circuitboi
1 person seemed to feel Wormhole should keep Knockback
ProcessedMeatMan
21 people seemed to agree Casting time for most gravity powers need to be shortened in general
Detain, Gravo_Matic, anachrodragon, Pheroz, Airhammer, Drakana, Ariel, BlackSly, Psi_Wren, Red Warlock, Gravaton1, Dirges, Circuitboi, Amadan, Arc_7, QuinnBlackwatch, Ayradyss, Ghobetween, Psychokinetic, Heroic, Darth Mord
10 people seemed to agree Singularity should up its damage
_Ishtar_, Kendal, EinValentine, Tetra, Xugumad, Constant_Motion, Defender_King, Gravaton1, Espionage, Darth Mord
3 people I found felt we should leave Singularity alone
Robson, Zloth, Grav_Sink
10 people seemed to agree Gravity needs more damage in general
Kendal, Drakana, Amethyst, SymonStar, Magnet_Hope, Gravaton1, Red Warlock, IMcurious, Heroic, Darth Mord
1 person seemed to feel Gravity doesnt need more damage
Robson
5 people seemed to agree devs should shorten the casting time for Gravity Distortion
_Ishtar_, Detain, Dwimble, BlueBattler, Ariel
7 people seemed to agree Crushing field needs some fixes, such as: shorten casting time, shouldnt draw so much aggro, should have a chance to disorient, should do more damage, etc.
Detain, Xugumad, rockdeity, FireIron, Ariel, Heroic, Darth Mord
8 people seemed to agree Gravity Controllers should have a power called Gravity Well that pulls villains into the ground and does smashing damage and holds villains once in epicenter:
UnknownBlade, Continuum, Circuitboi, Psi-Wren, Sandolphan, Cinder Imp, Ghobetween, Heroic
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That portion of the discussion was when we were asking for the stars, right? Asking for the absolute best possible fix, in our minds. Which is still "gravity well in place of DS, wormhole single target, increase damage on propel, reduce animation times across the board." Well, that's my take for ideal, you might differ.
Back then, we were looking for a way to keep wormhole and improve our AoE. Instead the devs dropped the AoE wormhole on us, something we didn't anticipate. I don't think anyone suggested the fix we got.
We did get a bump to propel. Singularities got a speed bump and a resistance bump. The reduced duration is actually a boon to Dimension Shift, giving enough time to heal up and get buffed but not dragging the game into complete "wait for it" tedium, or short enough to actually have applications in combat if you are careful and smart. And the new wormhole has its own set of possible applications, admittedly sloppy control but so are all the other sets secondary AoE controls.
Basically, that list is pretty old, and doesn't take into account the changes that happened.
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Thanks for the tip. Your insight is astounding.
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With responses like this, is it any wonder the devs are so hard pressed to CARE about anything said on these forums?
I can easily see how this power can be used for control. Would it be nicer to have it before 26? Yeah. But at the same time, I can see how this power is so nice, it warrents waiting till 26.
Should Propel get an AoE disorient along with it? Hell yeah. That makes even more sense.
There are many ways to play the game. This change allows for another one that is equally, arguable even more, effective.
In my apparantly astounding opinion.
--
My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
Going to quote you in reverse order, sorry.
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There are many ways to play the game. This change allows for another one that is equally, arguable even more, effective.
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The Wormhole change is also arguably less effective, it just depends on what you consider 'effective'. The fact that it's so easy to split hairs on the change seems to me like it's best to leave things as they are on live now and work on another, more effective change.
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Should Propel get an AoE disorient along with it? Hell yeah. That makes even more sense.
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This would be the more effective change that still gets my vote.
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With responses like this, is it any wonder the devs are so hard pressed to CARE about anything said on these forums?
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For the most part, this thread has been very civil even though there's clearly two camps regarding the whole Wormhole fiasco. I've seen Dev responses in threads far, far more inflammatory than this one. It's pretty disappointing that a calm thread with well over 400 posts about issues that greatly affect Gravity Controllers doesn't have a single red comment while far less civil threads get much more attention. Too polite for our own good, I suppose.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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For the most part, this thread has been very civil even though there's clearly two camps regarding the whole Wormhole fiasco. I've seen Dev responses in threads far, far more inflammatory than this one. It's pretty disappointing that a calm thread with well over 400 posts about issues that greatly affect Gravity Controllers doesn't have a single red comment while far less civil threads get much more attention. Too polite for our own good, I suppose.
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Time to start chewing on the furniture then. 
My Grav controller is now 13th level and pretty close to 14th, though I won't have a lot of time to play for the next couple days. So, I still don't have a character big enough to test out the Wormhole change.
I did test out Propel, and really liked it. The only real danger is that I may stop fighting whenever I throw a forklift. For the first day after I got it, I'd announce in SG chat whenever a forklift showed up.
One of my SG mates told me that he'd fear the barrel of hazardous chemicals before he feared the forklift.
Just testing a few times seemed like Prople was doing more damage than Air Superiority, though because of animation times and all that Air Superiority may be better. Despite that, I think I'll stick with Propel for now.
Phear the Phorklift!
Zuri
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That portion of the discussion was when we were asking for the stars, right? Asking for the absolute best possible fix, in our minds. Which is still "gravity well in place of DS, wormhole single target, increase damage on propel, reduce animation times across the board." Well, that's my take for ideal, you might differ.
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Sort of... Ideal to me?
Make us comparable in damage and control to Fire/Earth/Illusion/Ice.
Decrease our casting times. Our powers are among the slowest if not the slowest to activate of any of the control AT's. Slowest to activate and if not the slowest to recycle I would be very surprised.
Increase our damage. And no I do not mean just on Propel. I mean across the board. We cant even touch a Fire or Illusion controller in damage, not even close. Grav has the most highly resisted damage type in the game. My best friends are Fire and Illusion controllers and I am astounded by the amount of damage they can pump out... while still having better overall and consistant AoE control.
Is it any wonder most Gravs retire before they ever get GDF much less wormhole and that most of them are rerolled as Fire or Illusion and that Fire and Illusion out number Gravs by like 20 to 1. Each. Don't get me wrong, I like not being the proverbial FotM, but that doesn't mean I want to be the uniquely rare midiocre controller AT either.
Hell, even Dark Miasma is becoming a more popular "controller" AT than Grav, when it comes to bosses the Dark Miasma single target hold is less resisted than mine. It can often do in one application what takes me 2 or 3 because of the level of resistance mobs have against Grav's power type vs. dark.
Somewhere there has to be a payout for Grav to make the AT comparable to the others. Dam? Control? Speed? Secondary Effect? Something. Anything.
And while we are on the subject of Propel, the power is simply too slow to be used as a single target attack in any team setting. Take the time to use it and at least half the time the mob is dead before the power activates, unless it's a boss or AV in which case you should be stacking holds to keep your party mates alive instead of messing around with a long casting 1 shot for highly resisted Grav controller damage.
And yes I admit I would be much more inclined to accept the new wormhole if either a) Propel came with an AoE disorient to do what we asked for that wormhole imo does not address and/or b) DS were made single target such that I could duplicate the single target scalpel effect I once had with wormhole.
I agree the reduced duration on DS is better than the old, but not enough for me to want to chance pissing off my teammates by using it and therefore I still wont be picking it up. It remains entirely too situational to fit in my build. Which is fine... I'm not really missing it now.
I'm actually happy with our Sings. Though I think it's a bit disingenuous to say they received a speed bonus because in fact all pets did, so that's hardly a bonus to grav in leveling the playing field. Again, I think the Sings are pretty much fine as is.
But for the most part I've given up on being able to pulloff what a fire or illusion controller can do. I've given up on more damage to offset the resistances mobs have against us. I've given up on asking for reduced casting and recasting times. I've given up on asking for DS to be improved into a power that I might actually hate not choosing. And I have also all but given up asking for Propel to be turned into something more useful than an oh so occassionally quick enough form of single target contoller level damage eye candy.
But you'll have to forgive me if I find it very difficult to accept that when Statesman said he was going to send some AoE control help our way that this "porting, knocking back, disorienting, terrain dependant, team aggrivating" wormhole (at the expense of it's previous scalpel like function) which we did not ask for is what he meant or what we had hoped for.
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But you'll have to forgive me if I find it very difficult to accept that when Statesman said he was going to send some AoE control help our way that this "porting, knocking back, disorienting, terrain dependant, team aggrivating" wormhole (at the expense of it's previous scalpel like function) which we did not ask for is what he meant or what we had hoped for.
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You just put that far better than I've been trying to do. Well said.
I don't suppose there's any hope of changing DS into "Implode Singularity"... It'd be nice to clear out the arena with one click! Ah, well.
Here's an idea. We want precise target control with Wormhole, devs want AoE disorient with Wormhole.
We can have both.
Wormhole teleports one enemy, single target and precise. But the exit spot gets the AoE disorient, weak AoE control at level 26. We all get what we want.
The single target grab allows us to throw FF gens, auto-turrets, and DE stumps away from the team. The AoE disorient on exit allows a fig leaf of AoE control. They can even split the to-hit rolls like they do with Blind's hold/sleep setup so the teleport has the normal accuracy and the disorient has the AoE penalty accuracy.
Wormhole gets a clear buff instead of a 50/50 berf. Vote!
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Here's an idea. We want precise target control with Wormhole, devs want AoE disorient with Wormhole.
We can have both.
Wormhole teleports one enemy, single target and precise. But the exit spot gets the AoE disorient, weak AoE control at level 26. We all get what we want.
The single target grab allows us to throw FF gens, auto-turrets, and DE stumps away from the team. The AoE disorient on exit allows a fig leaf of AoE control. They can even split the to-hit rolls like they do with Blind's hold/sleep setup so the teleport has the normal accuracy and the disorient has the AoE penalty accuracy.
Wormhole gets a clear buff instead of a 50/50 berf. Vote!
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That's a really good idea, I know it's been mentioned somewhere but it may not have been on this thread. I think it'd keep everyone at least reasonably content.
Though I'd say we honestly don't really know what the devs want, they haven't communicated with us on this at all. We know they obviously want to give us another AoE control power, and that they considered wormhole ripe for changing. Now, who knows what they want? No one, until they decide to actually talk to us. 
Oh no! Not that "knockback" bit! Pheroz (I think) tore me apart over that one. Old news! I've since changed my tune!
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Here's an idea. We want precise target control with Wormhole, devs want AoE disorient with Wormhole.
We can have both.
Wormhole teleports one enemy, single target and precise. But the exit spot gets the AoE disorient, weak AoE control at level 26. We all get what we want.
The single target grab allows us to throw FF gens, auto-turrets, and DE stumps away from the team. The AoE disorient on exit allows a fig leaf of AoE control. They can even split the to-hit rolls like they do with Blind's hold/sleep setup so the teleport has the normal accuracy and the disorient has the AoE penalty accuracy.
Wormhole gets a clear buff instead of a 50/50 berf. Vote!
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Yay! I likes!
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Though I'd say we honestly don't really know what the devs want, they haven't communicated with us on this at all.
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Aye, I would humbly ask that we have some sort of dev response on the I4 wormhole change. With so much controversy over its new functioning, I would think perhaps something might be addressed.
Just to get a fresh idea on it, I looked over the powers available comparing level 12 powers between the controllers for Dimension Shift and level 26 powers for Wormhole. My impression is that it seems that this new version of Wormhole fits in the level 12 slot better than at 26, when you view the correlation between the powers/effects of all the controller's primary powers at those levels.
If the overall purpose is to bring controller powers at a particular level to be "more in line" with other controller's powers at that level, why does there seem to be such a discrepency here?
Again, I'm not wanting to flame/troll/threaten to cancel my account, I'm sticking with the game and my grav troller because this is a great game that I enjoy. I would however like a Dev, be it Statesman or Positron or whoever, please let us know what's going on in this process with Grav controllers, and if we can expect more changes when controllers in general are "looked at" as States indicated they would be around the I5 - I6 timeframe.
global: @SuperSean
Undersecretary of Awesome
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Here's an idea. We want precise target control with Wormhole, devs want AoE disorient with Wormhole.
We can have both.
Wormhole teleports one enemy, single target and precise. But the exit spot gets the AoE disorient, weak AoE control at level 26. We all get what we want.
The single target grab allows us to throw FF gens, auto-turrets, and DE stumps away from the team. The AoE disorient on exit allows a fig leaf of AoE control. They can even split the to-hit rolls like they do with Blind's hold/sleep setup so the teleport has the normal accuracy and the disorient has the AoE penalty accuracy.
Wormhole gets a clear buff instead of a 50/50 berf. Vote!
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What a cool idea. I'd be happy to have it this way, however, I do like the current change on test. AoE disorient works with my /storm's thuner clap and mass immob keeps the guys from scattering.
My only reservation with this proposed method is it may be very confusing for new players.
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Here's an idea. We want precise target control with Wormhole, devs want AoE disorient with Wormhole.
We can have both.
Wormhole teleports one enemy, single target and precise. But the exit spot gets the AoE disorient, weak AoE control at level 26. We all get what we want.
The single target grab allows us to throw FF gens, auto-turrets, and DE stumps away from the team. The AoE disorient on exit allows a fig leaf of AoE control. They can even split the to-hit rolls like they do with Blind's hold/sleep setup so the teleport has the normal accuracy and the disorient has the AoE penalty accuracy.
Wormhole gets a clear buff instead of a 50/50 berf. Vote!
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Define exit spot. Personally, if i'm pulling an FFG out of a group, i'd like the group to get the AoE disorient, not everything around where I put the FFG to be disoriented.
Wormhole: I prefer the suggestion (made by several including myself) to add a moderate AoE disorient around the destination location. This preserves the orginal use of the power and makes it a viable AoE control. I can play with the new 'supersized' Wormhole, but I'd rate it a 3 on a scale of 1-10 in usefulness, with the proposed being an 8. Please lose the Knockback though, in any Wormhole; it serves little purpose and there is no need to further 'balance' this level 26 power.
Propel: I like the idea of an AE Disorient around the target, especially if Wormhole is kept supersized. AE Knockback fits the power better
Dimension Shift: For starters, I wouldn't mess with the recharge time on this, especially in response to PvP usage. If you want to limit PvP usage, you can grant a 1 min Immunity to Intangible after it wears off, to stop chain-DSing, similar to what other PvP games have done.
You can do tons to make this a viable and even a key power. First thing would be to have it toggle the Intangibility status of foes in the area so it can be shut off (it still wears off in 30 sec regardless), AND so that it can be used to make foes that use Intangibility like Ancestor Spirits vulnerable (and Immobilized BTW). Note that this is better than simply making it a toggle power. Then, add more foes that use Intangible. You can also add foes that are randomly buffed with very high but temporary status resistance, making the only way to easily control them be DSing them until their buff expires. You can add more point-defense mission objectives as in Cape and Respec missions. All in all, this power has great potential for skillful players, but their skill needs to be rewarded with an increased experience rate when used properly. It's OK to keep it situational, just increase the frequency of those situations.
Crushing Field: Not much attention in this thread, but I believe most Gravs respec this out by the 30s. Even with my Rad secondary I find it is just too dangerous to use, and of very little utility. However, adding an enhancable Knockdown effect before the Immob kicks in makes it viable IMO, and a novel and thematic AE control power. Note the Knockdown would be one-time, unlike Ice Slick, but would give enough time to get a tank in there, AE them a little, etc.
Neuronaut, Grav/Rad, Virtue
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Wormhole: I prefer the suggestion (made by several including myself) to add a moderate AoE disorient around the destination location. This preserves the orginal use of the power and makes it a viable AoE control.
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Out of curiosity, how do you invision using it if it was made this way? From what I've read here, most ppl use the (now old) I3 wormhole to pull pesky things out of a group. If that's it's standard usage, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to disorient around the target you are pulling out rather than the area around where you are putting the target?
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28 people seemed to agree Propel needs more damage and/or lower endurance cost
losing2entropy, Detain, PsychoKinetic, Gravo_Matic, Dwimble, Kendal, Tetra, BlueBattler, MasonL87X, KalythR, Starfox, Constant_Motion, Telok, FireIron, Psi_Wren, Aristotle, VoidChild, Dr_Strangefate, Ground_Force, BattleFlag, Idlemind, Paveway, Grav_Sink, Red Warlock IMcurious, QuinnBlackwatch, Heroic, Darth Mord
20 people seemed to agree Propel needs shortened casting time
Detain, Airhammer, Xugumad, BlueBattler, MasonL87X, KalythR, Rockdeity, LAKmastin, Constant_Motion, Manipulon, Telok, Fire_Drake, Idlemind, Paveway, Grav_Sink, Gravaton1, Kharisma, IMcurious, QuinnBlackwatch, Darth Mord
16 people seemed to agree Propel needs a cone
_Ishtar_, Detain, Gigglebunny, Tetra, MasonL87X, Rockdeity, Constant_Motion, FireIron, Aristotle, BattleFlag, Sandolphan, Cinder_Imp, Buji, QuinnBlackwatch, Heroic
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This is an accurate summary of the opinions I posted. That being said, I just want to footnote this: I'm satisfied by the damage buff to Propel that has gone live.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
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This is an accurate summary of the opinions I posted. That being said, I just want to footnote this: I'm satisfied by the damage buff to Propel that has gone live.
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When we got the free respec for the Anniversary, I copied my controller over to the Training Room and tested both Air Superiority and Propel.
I like the damage from Propel, it's a fun power, and even though it's slow, I'm sure I'll find a use for it. So I dropped Air Superiority and picked Propel up with my respec.
Even if the enemy is already defeated, there is still a bit of fun in throwing a forklift at it.
Zuri
Lvl 50 grav/rad/psy here.
Been a while since I've been here, and in light of some soloing and occasional teaming on test... new wormhole still gets my nay vote.
It loses a lot of the utility that it had for pinpoint control. And I can safely say it isn't replaceable with TP Foe. For all those who say 'TP Foe is a pool power! We don't want a glorified pool power!' here's a few other examples:
Scrapper melee attacks and boxing. They do the same stuff, so why do scrappers have attacks?
Stealth and Superior Invisibility. They do the same stuff too, so why Sup. Invis?
It's not a bad thing to have an all-around-more-powerful version of a pool power in our primary. And wormhole-on-live is exactly that.
The new wormhole is, as has been described, poorer for managing enemies. The scatter + teleport + knockback causes confusion even if you drop them in the same place you picked them up from. It's another power for us to gain agro from our team-mates with.
In addition, it needs a lot more slot love to be effective without endangering the team. As it stands we already need to dedicate a lot of slots to other powers (GD, GDF, Singularity, secondaries to make up for our control gap). It's nice having powers that don't need significant slotting to be effective instead of downright dangerous.
Finally - PvP. TP Foe is proving to be quite a nice PvP trick. It'd be nice to be able to do similar, only with the power to pinpoint-place that squishy near the scrapper or in the debuff field of tar pit. But unfortunately doing so nets you the scrapper that has been tasked to protect the squishy too - meaning that TP Foe is now a better PvP power than wormhole. Nice to see a pool power outperforming its primary power counterpart.
We need some love, and particularly we need some love in the 12-17 range. Whenver I RSK down, that's where I feel the pain the most. Changing a lvl 26 power that worked fine thanks is not the solution - even if it gets whined about a lot on the forums. Of course you only see the whines - typically people who are happy don't comment. Now, of course, we have just reason to.
The sad thing is a rad/dark defender can control better from 12-17 than a grav/rad controller. When a defender secondary provides better control than a controller primary then something is wrong.