Issue 4 Changes for Gravity - Official Thread

Did some testing with the new wormhole last night.
Against even level minions and lts (lvl 41 Rikti and Nemesis), I was getting 12 seconds of disorient.
Against my friend in the Arena I was getting 5-6 seconds of disorient. I am hoping this is just an Arena bug (and I did bug it), but overall I am not too worried, since it works properly in PvE.

[ QUOTE ]
Disorient +knockback + dodgy teleportation targeting cause a lot more scatter than just disorient alone. More scatter, and much more violent and sudden scatter.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh. I am not going to argue this point, you are correct. As far as how much it matters in game... the scatter of other disorient powers is just as annoying. The extra 3 feet my scrapper may have to run for a mob that has been Wormhole scatterd as opposed to Stalagmite scattered is irrelevant really.

As far as the knockback on wormhole, I too would like to see it removed. I am not arguing that the Devs have made a perfect power out of the new wormhole. IMO, they have made it a better power. Gravity has plenty of single target effects, but was lacking AoE. This gives us another AoE. I am truly sorry for those who prefer the single target version, but IMO this change makes wormhole worth taking and gives valuable control which is almost constantly available (with one Rec Red SO and perma hasten it recharges in about 20 seconds if I remeber correctly).

Things I would like to see them change about the new wormhole:
Remove the knockback - while cool looking, it is annoyingly detrimental to the use of the power.
Make the disorient take effect as soon as the power hits, instead of waiting until after the mob is ported. I don't mind the guys I miss shooting me, but the ones I hit getting a shot off is bothersome.
If the disorient time is still unenhanceable, I would like them to fix that bug (I did not test this last night, it was late I had to sleep).

Have I mentioned how cool a Reverse Gravity Field would be recently?

I'd rather see them leave wormhole and change dimension shift. Granted, there are those who like it, but there are a whole lot more who like wormhole more. And a new AoE control power would accomplish much of what people use dimension shift for, without it's deficiencies.

[ QUOTE ]
Did some testing with the new wormhole last night.
Against even level minions and lts (lvl 41 Rikti and Nemesis), I was getting 12 seconds of disorient.

[/ QUOTE ]

But see, that's my whole problem with it. I don't usually fight even-cons. Set on "Invincible" with a couple of teammates it's spawning 39/40's, sometimes 41's which I think sucks, but that's how it is. Even when I hunt it's usually +2's. So 12 seconds of disorient on a white minion will do what to a +2/3 Lt?!? Exactly diddly-doo.

So that ugly scattering effect IS a big deal. If they're only going to be disoriented for a few, & I DO mean a FEW (in my testing Saturday, a +1 Lt was disoriented for no more than 5 seconds, I wasn't feeling brave enough to test it on +2's after that result :P), having them wandering all over the frigging place sucks & WILL pose a problem. If you don't GDF them the moment they come out, they're lost.

I used it on one of those LARGE groups of Crey in Bricks & it looked like you'd opened the barn door & let the cows loose when they popped out of it. Sure you can send them away, but I don't like "emergency" powers. To me, that means I've failed my job & we're running cause I'm an idiot.

I was showing the new WH to a L50 Grav/Kin I know who loved the old WH & didn't know they were changing it. His response to the results ranged from "OMG!" to "Oh hell no!" to "Holy aggro Batman!"

[ QUOTE ]
Make the disorient take effect as soon as the power hits, instead of waiting until after the mob is ported. I don't mind the guys I miss shooting me, but the ones I hit getting a shot off is bothersome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen. THIS flaw is REALLY huge. On a small-to-medium-sized group it's kinda an annoyance; but I wormholed said large group (@10) that had a lot of Lt's in it, & I got shot at by half of the mobs AT THE SAME TIME. Can you say ALPHA boy & girls? Tried again on a smaller group of Council with a Boss & 2 Lt's & took 2 HARD hits. If I hadn't been hovering with Stealth on I'm pretty sure I'd have been sucking gutter. If that Boss had been a PP I would have been trotting out of the hospital.

I don't think using one of my powers should be a crapshoot. I understand when a power MISSES, but if it hits, why am I STILL getting blasted? That's just dumb. I don't want to roll the dice everytime I use it as to whether I (or all of us if it's an AoE) am gonna dirtnap or not.

NOW, for all those who say those of us who don't like the new WH are just whining, want to "keep Grav gimped", blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, listen: I AM really TRYING to like this power. I already have it & don't really want to burn a Respec to get rid of it if I can't make it work. I AM testing it, I'm listening to everyone's suggestions on tactics, strategy, etc. BUT IMO, it still stinks. I just think some people here have their hands over their noses & refuse to smell it.

I hope the rabid fans & supporters of the new WH are still fans after it goes live. I'd like to see the response from your team the first time you use it. After the mobs disappear, port, reappear, wander all over creation for a count of three, then start shooting/beating/clawing them all to death, I don't think you're get a "Woot! Woohoo, GJ dude!" from you teammates. 1 million influence says it'll be along the lines of "WT*?!?"

[ QUOTE ]
But see, that's my whole problem with it. I don't usually fight even-cons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, netiher do I. I run on invincible. However, 12 seconds vs. an even con is about the same as the other sets get in their AoE disorients. Heck GDF only holds even cons for 15 seconds (I think), I am sure the time degradation for levels between disorients and holds is the same. So if you are saying the wormhole duration sucks, you are also saying GDFs duration sucks. Is that what you are saying? GDF is useless to you vs. the +2 and +3 level of mobs you are fighting normally? Slot it for Disorient duration like you slot GDF for hold duration and all is well again.

[ QUOTE ]
BUT IMO, it still stinks.

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, you want another AoE hold, and that ain't gonna happen. Yes, it is not as good as GDF, but it is nearly as good as Stalagmites and Flashfires (the knockback thing drops it a tier below those). It is a secondary control method, not as good as a hold (it has drawbacks a hold doesn't have). It helps fill the gaps between GDF recharges. It is not another GDF. If it goes live as is, it is better than the nothing we had before (well we had Dimension Shift, but really), and we can work around the drawbacks.

[ QUOTE ]
it is nearly as good as Stalagmites and Flashfires (the knockback thing drops it a tier below those). It is a secondary control method, not as good as a hold (it has drawbacks a hold doesn't have). It helps fill the gaps between GDF recharges. It is not another GDF. If it goes live as is, it is better than the nothing we had before (well we had Dimension Shift, but really), and we can work around the drawbacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This is not a time we should be telling the devs "We consider it acceptable for the second highest power in the gravity control set to be inferior to similar powers much earlier in other sets, many of which have other strengths over grav as well". Regardless of our disagreements about how good the new wormhole is (and I agree that testing it's unenhanced duration isn't a very good way to measure it's actual usability in real play), it simply is not acceptable for us to get such a halfassed power at such a high level with no benefit in return, when sets like fire that already have a massive damage advantage over us also have superior secondary control much earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, you want another AoE hold, and that ain't gonna happen. Yes, it is not as good as GDF, but it is nearly as good as Stalagmites and Flashfires (the knockback thing drops it a tier below those).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want another AoE Hold. What I want is a Disorient added to a different power (added to Propel or replace DS imo) so the current Wormhole, one of my bread and butter powers I use in every fight, isn't sacrificed so Gravity can get an inferior version of a power other sets get at half the level. I'd also love it if a dev would comment in this thread so we know they're at least listening to the large number of Gravs who don't like this change, even if it's to disagree with us.

[ QUOTE ]
"We consider it acceptable for the second highest power in the gravity control set to be inferior to similar powers much earlier in other sets, many of which have other strengths over grav as well".

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I am sure many of those other sets wished their AoE holds were not PBAoE.
Our AoE hold is a HUGE cone that can be used from GOOD range. This is a great advantage.
To be honest, Grav gets a 2nd AoE control at 12th just like the other sets. Yeah, I hate it, you hate it, any good, effective team will hate it. But it is there. I do not think wormhole is Strictly inferior to the Stalagmites and Flashfires, because I believe the porting has uses (I was only comparing wormhole to those powers because they also disorient, but that is really all they do, where wormhole also has mob placement potential). I mean really, Bonfires is cool, but I wouldn't say it is better than the new wormhole, just different. You can't really compare exactly when the other sets get exactly what, but should compare the sets as a whole. On the whole, the new wormhole brings Grav much more in line with the other set's ability to have AoE control. Could wormhole be better? Sure. Would Ill controllers prefer not to run into the middle of mobs in order to use Flash? Probably. I like holding the mobs from way back here, and when I first started playing it never occurred to me that a controller would dive headlong into mobs, as I have since seen them do.

1) Yes, grav does get a second AoE control at 12. And you're right. I hate it, you hate it, any effective team will hate it, the vast majority of grav controllers hate it. Since everyone hates it, why on earth should we treat it as an advantage of the set? It sucks.

2) I disagree about wormhole not being strictly inferior to those other powers. What we lose in activation time (taking into account time spent making sure we have the ground under the mob targeted rather than some point in space behind it) and in not getting the power until a much higher level than other control sets, plus the loss of the original, much more useful wormhole, IMO far offsets what miniscule situational advantage we get in placing groups of mobs.

3) You're right, we do have an advantage in that our AoE hold is ranged (not a cone, but that makes it even better). That definitely doesn't suck. It also doesn't make up entirely for what other sets get, IMO; sure, illusion controllers may not want to run into PBAoE range, but I'd sure like to be able to drop a horde of pets to do my beatdowns for me.

You've admitted in previous posts that the new wormhole isn't as good as other sets' secondary AoEs, that dimension shift sucks, and referred to the new wormhole as "better than nothing". I can't fathom why you continue to stick up for it rather than asking for something else such as dimension shift to be changed.

Don't need another GDF, I get EMP, a tool that WORKS, in 3 bubbles. So SN, you truly believe that the I4 WH is worthy of being the last power we get before Singularity? That boggles the mind. So the kb drops WH a tier below Stalagmites & FF, which Earth & Fire get at what level? & tell me why I shouldn't compare at what level who gets what again. I look at it as "I waited until L26 to get THIS?!?"

Unless I'm placing the mobs in the next block so we can run, I still don't understand how this "AoE Placement Tool" is a such a great thing. You're all excited because it's AoE & think most of us are "just failing to see the potential". Know what I see? I see you being so desperate, as much so as the rest of us, for another tool, any tool, that you'd be happy if they gave us Fold Space back.

I hope you're right, I hope I'm wrong & that this thing turns out to be wonderful, the best thing EVA since cheese in a spraycan. But I really think you're grasping at straws & you'll find out that we just traded if not the family cow, then one of his healthy calves for a bag of magic beans.

As to testing WH with the default slot, there IS a method to my madness. I'm L37 right now with 1 Respec banked. I will NOT have any slots available to play with until, at the earliest, L40, because I get EMP at 38 & have all the 39 slots planeed for that. SO, I won't even have a CHANCE to put slots in WH until then. Therefore, unless I'm just going to respec then rob slots from somewhere else, it HAS to work "as is" for right now, or I have to take it off of my powertray until I can slot it. I burned the Respec on Test playing around with a PvP build, so don't have that one either.

If anyone is going on the TS tomorrow & wants to play around with WH in some situations, please send me a PM here, I'll come along. If you can show me/sell me on this, I'd be happy to look at it. Besides, a whole team of nothing but Gravs would be pretty sweet.

one question, would anyone help me find a gravity/storm guide? or something i could solo with real well, but at the same time have a storm secondary? thanks 8)

[ QUOTE ]
If anyone is going on the TS tomorrow & wants to play around with WH in some situations, please send me a PM here, I'll come along. If you can show me/sell me on this, I'd be happy to look at it. Besides, a whole team of nothing but Gravs would be pretty sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got Warp Factor copied over to test just after dinging 40, without having trained up yet. So if I can actually get the SOs, I can train her, put the slots in wormhole and try it out. Last I heard though, wormhole was bugged so that enhancements didn't add to the disorient duration. I've yet to get an answer from anyone as to whether this is fixed, the devs haven't mentioned it at all.

[ QUOTE ]
I see you being so desperate, as much so as the rest of us, for another tool, any tool,

[/ QUOTE ]
While this is true, my desperation does not validate you assertions (but it does raise eyebrows ).

Do I think Wormhole is ok as a level 26 power? Yes.
Some controllers do not get their AoE Hold until level 26. If I was a Dev reading your post I might conclude you want me to put Wormhole at level 18 and GDF at level 26. Is that what you want?

I belive the port is more useful than you think. I believe it will save time and reduce accidental agro. I believe this because I have seen it do these things. Could we have accomplished the reduced agro effect in others ways? Yes. But it is nice we accomplished it while disorienting the mobs, and that was back when the disorient was a paltry 5-6 seconds (actually it was even less, since we were fighting +2s, but the disorient was long enough for our pets or the tank to grab agro). Choosing your ground is valuable IME, and by level 26 an efficient team doesn't want a single pull anyway. Wormhole is great for this.

[ QUOTE ]
As to testing WH with the default slot,

[/ QUOTE ]
Really we can all only test it unenhanced, as I believe it is still bugged so that Disorient Enh still don't do anything. I don't think it is crazy to test it unenhanced, as a matter of fact I believe that is the best way to test it. But to say the power stinks unenhanced is a no brainer. Take all your Hold Enh out of GDF and tell me you still love it.

I'm not sure what reducing accidental aggro means? Basically you're getting it from the entire group within the AoE. From what I've seen the AoE is a decent size. It looks roughly the size of GDF actually. I (lvl 50) took a group of 10 or so Tsoo which were spread out in a loose group in Talos and ported them all across the water. So when you're talking about even cons that same AoE will roll over everyone in that group - porting some, aggro on others.

Actually, I'm getting used to the randomness of wormhole. By getting used to it, I mean, I decide not to use it in situations that I normally would have....i.e. using it less. Right now the use for me is to worm to the same spot to get the disorient and maybe even a toggle drop. Post 26 my teams were taking on Paragon Protectors - groups with 2-4 at a time. With the PPs having MoG, wormhole was a great tool to pull and dispatch them one at a time.

Honestly, I don't feel strongly either way anymore. I think its a lost cause for those who took the single target wormhole. Since all we've gotten is AoE wormhole features and tweaks - it looks like this is what the devs want (not a good number of users who've invested in it btw) - its a shame they've turned their backs to us, but we old schoolers will have to deal with it.

[ QUOTE ]
one question, would anyone help me find a gravity/storm guide? or something i could solo with real well, but at the same time have a storm secondary? thanks 8)

[/ QUOTE ]

Look in the controller forum BW. I think there's at least two guides geared towards grav/storm. If you haven't played grav before, you'll probably have a difficult time soloing in your early levels. Hurricane (at lvl 20) should be a big help.

GDF with one slot is still very nice, with 5 DOs in Hasten and AM it's even up relatively often. Wormhole with one slot is a nice way to split a group in two and suck aggro.

The problem I have with the new WH isn't as a pulling tool, GDF is much better for that if I'm using an AoE. The problem I have with it is that I lost the other 80% of my useage of Wormhole because I now have to use another AoE control either before (CF) or after (GDF/CF) in order to avoid scatter and mass aggro. Replacing a single target, easy to use, every fight power with a AoE, terrain dependant, once in a while power is annoying. Furthermore disorient powers are a very weak form of control unless combined with immobilize or slow powers, and you need to be able to combine those powers quickly to avoid the inherent scatter effect of disorient, which we can't do because of added knockback and long animations.

The new Wormhole may in fact be a very good AoE pulling power. As non-pull foe TP or as a disorient it's just not good enough to use at level 27, and I don't see it becoming any more useful with more slots. Pulling with it is pretty bad too. When I solo an AoE disorient pull is useless next to GDF. When I'm grouped we either just walk in and nail everything or we single pull to avoid getting overwhelmed. You just don't pull with AoEs unless you can handle everything that's going to aggro, and in that case you don't need a foe teleport.

At level 27 this power fails to improve my control options solo or in a group. Secondary powers and power pools are better long term choices as pet buffs for level 32 than AoE Wormhole is as a control power.

I haven't had a chance to go on the test server yet, but for the record just conceptually I really don't like the Wormhole changes, and the added damage for Propel doesn't impress me. We need more than this, and Wormhole is useful as it is anyway. I'd rather keep my precision placement tool rather than have a crappy slow-casting mass disorient.

As a recent wormhole newbie, I'm still trying to get a handle on the best way to use it...seems like a very involved power to use: Obtain Target, activate, target destination, cross fingers, click. But I was using it quite effectively tonight against FFG in the Respec Mission. So I for one would like to see Wormhole remain as is, and I would love to see the Propel with the AoE disorientate at target spot. That just sounds so cool!

But, I now have my respec, so we'll see what the future brings...

I'd really, really like to see a reasonably detailed explanation for the wormhole change, as opposed to changing other less popular grav powers, similar to the explanations for the most recent round of changes. Devs?

I too would like to see this. However, I would not be willing to say which powers in Grav were the least popular. For all we know lots of Gravity controllers love DS and I know I see a lot of them with Propel (mostly, of course, because they were hoodwinked into thinking Propel did damage).

I would hope the devs looked at the data and saw that wormhole was the least selected Grav power, and that is why it was chosen for the change, but it may just have been because it already had the disorient on it, which might have made it easier to change?

I know this has been argued, and I really don't want to revisit those arguments. But my experience has been that, in fact, dimension shift is not very popular. I don't remember ever having seen it on another grav controller's build (I often take a look at other characters' power selections if they have the same power sets as my main characters), and I haven't ever heard a grav controller in game ever argue for it's utility. So I very strong doubt that lots of gravity controllers love DS.

I realize some grav controllers claim to have reason to think otherwise, and that's fine. That's their perspective. But as my experiences in game are pretty consistent with what's been said on the forums, I'm inclined to think it's pretty accurate. It's not proof, but it's the closest to proof any of us is going to get on the topic.

I just got off the test server, was grouped with a friend and we did a few missions to test powers/builds.

27 Grav/Rad (Loche), SK to 32 Storm/Elec (Carli)

I was primarily testing the new Wormhole, tatics were heavy on the use of stealth to gain inital strike and corners to maximize our powers. Both maps were laboratory indoor maps, lots of corners but few hiding places and some areas without decent corners. I led, she followed, no serious damage or opposition due to groups of only five level 32/33 minions and one boss (32) with two minions. Slotting was one 25 (yellow) accuracy SO, perma-Hasten, perma-Acclerate Metabolisim. For comparision GD is one 25 accuracySO and five 25 hold SOs, GDF is two 25 accuracy SOs and four 25 hold SOs.

The AoE size seems to be about the same as GDF, mabey a hair smaller. Most of the stuff I hit with GDF was in the Wormhole radius. No real suprise or complaints here.

The attack range is your usual range, you have to be within range to use your normal powers. The long exit range allowed me to run off across rooms and feed additional mobs to Carli while the clouds ate and controlled them, only reason I got away with this is because I had GDF up most of the time to hold anything I missed.

The accuracy was interesting for me, no hard numbers but a very definite impression from both of us. I used Wormhole on live and got the same accuracy as I do with GD, on test the accuracy is less than both GD and GDF. I was normally hitting around 70% of the minions I was targeting with Wormhole while GD abd GDF had the usual 90%+ hit rate. This suggests to me that AoE Wormhole now has the controller AoE accuracy penalty as applied to our holds.

The effect duration was noticeable in that it wasn't, after the first set I used Wormhole on we made sure to corral the mobs with wind or gravity before activating Wormhole. Carli would do this just using Hurricane and standing in the target corner, if I needed to I used GDF. The knockdown was sufficent that I could get a GDF or Propel off before mobs could get back up, the disorient counted for nothing in this duo.

When using Wormhole to pull it quickly became apparent that an additional form of control was needed to immobilize the mobs after they had be moved, the knockback and disorient combined to spread them out beyond effective AoE control in under five seconds after they got back to their feet. Additionaly the accuracy issue meant I was often eating a accuracy and/or defense inspiration before using it. The aggro from pulling seemed interesting. When I hit all of the targets is seemed not to matter how close to another mob they were, as long as I hit everything only those Wormholed seemed to aggro on me (most of the time, there were exceptions but they were fewer then expected). However if I missed anything, everything aggroed on me without exception. Luckily the two of us did little enough damage that GDF was pretty much always available.

When using Wormhole to move enemies while in combat the AoE nature helped a little, the long recharge hurt alot, and the accuracy made the recharge highly annoying. When attempting to move something I couldn't be sure of moving anything because I kept missing 1/3 of the targets. The ability to precisely position a target was also hampered, if enough targets were hit the conga line effect when they came out could throw them out of the corner I was aiming at.

After the tests I'm annoyed at the change to Wormhole. It's now harder to use, needs slotting (absolute minimum of two accuracy), and I wouldn't use it as often. Carli said [ QUOTE ]
It seems good if there's a corner. But if you don't it just looks like a piss-off power

[/ QUOTE ]

The flaws in this test are fairly obvious. It's a duo with a limited number of mobs, slow enough pace to always have GDF as back up (needed it too), possible the best deftroller primary powerset for this, and an excellent player for a partner. Unfortunately getting a decent randomized team on the test server is still impossible due to the Arena crap and the team seek functions chashing CoH every time you use them.


Good hunting to you and keep sending the devs feedback.

[ QUOTE ]
After the tests I'm annoyed at the change to Wormhole. It's now harder to use, needs slotting (absolute minimum of two accuracy), and I wouldn't use it as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it needs slotting is because it's a control power now. Just like you wouldn't expect Gravity Distortion Field to be effective with just one or two slots, you can't expect Wormhole to function great with just one yellow SO.


Have you tried putting a disorient enhancement in there? I'd like to know if I'm the only one that's reporting the bug where enhancements do nothing to add to the duration.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason it needs slotting is because it's a control power now. Just like you wouldn't expect Gravity Distortion Field to be effective with just one or two slots, you can't expect Wormhole to function great with just one yellow SO.

Have you tried putting a disorient enhancement in there? I'd like to know if I'm the only one that's reporting the bug where enhancements do nothing to add to the duration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even going to try, the build I built has extremely tight slotting just to get to where it is now. It feeds speed and to-hit from secondary/pools so the primary can skimp on accuracy and recharge in exchange for hold duration. I have way more options for powers than for slots until after 37, freeing up four or five slots for a minor boost in disorient will hurt recharge and accuracy for the primary powers.

Part of this is that I build characters that aren't based on doing respec trials and being fully functional even if exemped to any level. That means I skipped the immobs totally because they didn't do enough without some form of backup, AoE Wormhole is too little and too late to be that backup. I find that I control better alternating Lift and GD then I do simply immobilizing. In theory I could slot up CF and Radiation Infection to get that, but at what cost? I would completely lose perma-AM, it's recharge, endurance, and status effect resistance. The problem with that is that I don't actually need CF, with a heavily slotted RI you can just hold the anchor and walk in.

It's all various options. I don't feel any control gap because I've optimized speed and accuracy on this character. On another controller I am going with the RI option, but that isn't a Grav. Single target Wormhole offered me a tool to move one target anywhere without needing alot of slotting or specific terrain. The AoE still does the same thing but it needs slotting, terrain, and annoys the team if you send something away.

Plus, GDF is great even with one slot at level 18. At level 26 with only one slot Wormhole is 'eh, interesting effect.' Inaccurate, slow recharge, slow animation, much much less useful than GDF even if slotted.

Not all powers in all sets are good matches for all playstyles. Sorry that the change doesn't mesh with so many of your builds, but that's hardly a reason to scrap the fix and try again.

The issue at hand was addressing the gravity set control gap on AoEs. The modification of wormhole does this in two ways. First, it provides a disorient which you can extend, perhaps covering the gap so that problem goes away. Second, it can send a group out of range, creating another method to reduce the control gap, although it is much sloppier than most of the controls gravity is used to.

Sloppy control powers are all over the other sets, you know. AoE disorients are sloppy. AoE Knockdown is sloppy. AoE sleeps are sloppy. Aoe confuses are sloppy. Sure, they can couple their sloppy secondary control with a root in most cases. We are still experimenting with the best way to accomplish this, but we'll figure it out.

So, in response, I don't much care that you guys miss the single-target version of wormhole. If you want that ability, you can take teleport foe. The change does what we asked for--help to close the control gap. I'm fairly happy with it all.

No dev response and their continued [Censored] with Worm Hole is really starting to worry me.

It seems clear to me the overwelming majority do NOT LIKE the new Worm Hole. Why have the devs seemingly ignored this little insight?

Please STOP wasting dev time on WH. Remove the new WH code before you patch it live. Read this thread. The Majority would prefer the I4 WH not go live. Look into Propel as an alternative AoE stun or even DShift. Please.