Boss level too high!

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Therfor you can't complete the mission without killing the bosses in order to free the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guys holding aren't bosses. Mez the bosses, kill the hostage holders, and go home.

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What possible defense can be employed against something that wipes you out in one stroke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Enervating Field and Darkest Night for a couple. They debuff damage. But not all defender types have such defenses.

Debuffing accuracy still leaves at least a 5% chance to hit; or in other words you'll get killed around 1 in 20 times with one shot attacks at best.

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So if anyone points out evidence that directly contradicts your assertions, you will brush it off by just assuming that it is the result of a bug? If the facts don't conform to the theory then they must be discarded, eh?

The facts are that there are missions in every story arc where you have to defeat a boss who is not mentioned or hinted at until you take the mission, and sometimes until you find him in the mission.

[/ QUOTE ]

The facts, Scorus, are something we'll each have to confirm for ourselves, aren't they?

So, instead of freaking out and declaring that I've ignored facts, get a grip and deal with the fact that all I'm ignoring is anecdotal reports that may have other explanations, that I can't confirm. Meanwhile, my experience trying to solo missions without killing bosses, at 1300 hours of playtime with a Mind Controller, is fairly extensive.

I'm saying, people may not be paying very good attention. I'm saying, I recognize two things: Akarist and Terra are special exceptions, and there's a bug with hidden defeat-all conditions on missions.

Does that mean states is wrong? Of coruse it does. He's wrong. But the reason is, there are a couple of exceptional missions that have to be that way for the sake of content, and there's a known bug that's needed to be fixed a long time. And aside from these two things, States is right.

You're welcome to think it's fact that missions with boss-defeat objectives that fail to say so are commonplace. I think you're wrong. And I'm going to adduce evidence myself whether you want me to revere your opinion as truth or not.

Meanwhile, you know, this leaves a huge looming cryptoargument, which is, are missions harder than they're really meant to be? Of course they're not. They're just hard, and some of them are now not soloable by everyone. They should always have been harder than they were prior to I3, and there should always, and have always, been SOME missions patently unsoloable by SOME builds.

This is not to say I think there're no problems with the game as it stands-- I'm waiting on the serious invuln tanks to give us the word on their major rearrangement (before I respec my own L28, as it happens). And as Ahtropa points out, I'm seriously wondering whether I3 doesn't bring a long-standing problem with the irrelevance of healers to a head.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therfor you can't complete the mission without killing the bosses in order to free the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guys holding aren't bosses. Mez the bosses, kill the hostage holders, and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, YOU can mez them, you're a Mind Controller. But many of us aren't. Ahtropa isn't, and my little Blaster isn't either.

You were with me on my DE save the lawyers mish today. You saw that undocumented Devoured, orange flavoured, at the end near the last hostage. If it was JUST me, I'd have been in for a world of hurt. Why? My Blaster doesn't have the ability to mez. Sure, the hostage was in the corner, MAYBE I could have gotten in and gotten him out from under the nose of the boss and the other mins roaming. I have Stealth and Superspeed, those two combinations give me a good pseudo-invis. But a toon who doesn't have that is in for a hellish fight.

I was with my SGmate who's a Scrapper today. He told me in all of his solo missions today before teaming with me he had bosses, either near the glowy or hostage. He has stealth of a sort from DA, however, they still aggrod and he was in for a fight regardless. Until he teamed with me and had a much easier time due to Aht's buffing. But still, more than once today I had to unexemplar in mid-mission just to be able to handle the damage the bosses were applying. And at one point I almost lost him when I paused in the spam-heal to apply Fort and AB. One hit, ONE hit and he was dropped to red. It took a spam-heal and Heal Other to get him back to full because of how hard he was being slammed. A L44 Emp nearly being overwhelmed by the damage of a L31 boss. That's just ridiculous.

As for mezzing the boss, as you suggest. It's easy for YOU. YOU have a toon that CAN handle bosses of just about any type. You hold, sleep, Terrify, whatever you need to do to get the job done. YOU can do this. We, myself included, canNOT. Only if we roll an MC specifically to have a character which CAN do what you do.

See the diff? What you suggest is well and good, but it's most often NOT an option. Not for a solo player who doesn't have that ability on their toon. Now, going out and finding an MC willing to team is another solution. But, and as has been relayed and in my own experiences, finding a good pick up team is time consuming and most oft times nearly impossible.

[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean states is wrong? Of coruse it does. He's wrong. But the reason is, there are a couple of exceptional missions that have to be that way for the sake of content, and there's a known bug that's needed to be fixed a long time. And aside from these two things, States is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, except for the fact that he's wrong, he's right?

Hairsplitting

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The guys holding aren't bosses. Mez the bosses, kill the hostage holders, and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh, silly me, I keep forgetting to buy those mez enemy inspirations.

[ QUOTE ]

ON a side note, has anyone noticed the level difference that's happening in missions. For example my CoT mission had mobs from level 33-37

[/ QUOTE ]

Some mobs have a levele cap in your case it would be the Behemoth overlords that have a level cap of 35 i believe. So it is possible to have bleue con mobs standing in among the oj minions.

2. What is the “Vision” for CoH?

Our vision for City of Heroes is to deliver an enjoyable game experience to players regardless of their MMP experience. A person should be able to log into City of Heroes, play an hour, have fun and accomplish something. A player should be able to find something to do solo, while team ups should be enjoyable & rewarding. City of Heroes is meant to emulate the world of comic book heroes as much as possible within the constraints of a MMP.


5. Why did you incorporate a mission slider to make some missions more difficult and increase the boss difficulty level when bosses make up such a large percentage of missions?

We’ve found that as players go up in level, minions and lts. become much easier to defeat – to the point where it’s boring. Players instead resort to street sweeping in order to find something tough enough that’s both fun and rewarding. Missions, however, are a great part of the game! So we wanted to give players an ability to raise the level of the spawns within a mission so that they could make missions as fun & rewarding as their skill dictated.

Well the first question is answer much the same way it was when I first found this game. He even says we should be able to find some thing to do solo. I like the missions because of the story. I really don't street hunt that often unless I am just taking a break from the normal game for some fun. So this seems like a good statement. Now take a look at the second question. Ask's about the mission slider and the bosses. Ok good question lots of people have been wondering about it. Now the answer has nothing to do with bosses. All he says is we added the mission slider because people like to fight harder minions and lieutenants. What about the second part Jack? I under stand the minions being to easy and even some of the lieutenants, and for that reason I like the mission slider. The bosses on the other hand were a challenge especial because they had minions and lieutenants with them. You see a group with a boss and he has underlings. Now you can take the underlings out first or you can take out the boss first. If you go with the underlings then you have to worry about the boss kicking the crap out of you. I have found that the bosses are best fought and taken out early that way you aren’t one hit killed. That was fun and a challenge pre I3. Now we have these uber bosses with underlings and they regularly one or two shot any one. Scrappers, Tankers, Defenders, Blasters, Controllers doesn't matter who you are the uber bosses kick the crap out of a lot of them. I like a tough fight but an impossible one is no fun. Now I do more street hunting because it’s easer to kill groups out side than it is in my own missions. Skipping content just the opposite of what you wanted. So please address the real issue of the bosses and don't ignore it like you did. Thank you.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therfor you can't complete the mission without killing the bosses in order to free the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guys holding aren't bosses. Mez the bosses, kill the hostage holders, and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, YOU can mez them, you're a Mind Controller. But many of us aren't. Ahtropa isn't, and my little Blaster isn't either.

You were with me on my DE save the lawyers mish today. You saw that undocumented Devoured, orange flavoured, at the end near the last hostage. If it was JUST me, I'd have been in for a world of hurt. Why? My Blaster doesn't have the ability to mez. Sure, the hostage was in the corner, MAYBE I could have gotten in and gotten him out from under the nose of the boss and the other mins roaming. I have Stealth and Superspeed, those two combinations give me a good pseudo-invis. But a toon who doesn't have that is in for a hellish fight.

I was with my SGmate who's a Scrapper today. He told me in all of his solo missions today before teaming with me he had bosses, either near the glowy or hostage. He has stealth of a sort from DA, however, they still aggrod and he was in for a fight regardless. Until he teamed with me and had a much easier time due to Aht's buffing. But still, more than once today I had to unexemplar in mid-mission just to be able to handle the damage the bosses were applying. And at one point I almost lost him when I paused in the spam-heal to apply Fort and AB. One hit, ONE hit and he was dropped to red. It took a spam-heal and Heal Other to get him back to full because of how hard he was being slammed. A L44 Emp nearly being overwhelmed by the damage of a L31 boss. That's just ridiculous.

As for mezzing the boss, as you suggest. It's easy for YOU. YOU have a toon that CAN handle bosses of just about any type. You hold, sleep, Terrify, whatever you need to do to get the job done. YOU can do this. We, myself included, canNOT. Only if we roll an MC specifically to have a character which CAN do what you do.

See the diff? What you suggest is well and good, but it's most often NOT an option. Not for a solo player who doesn't have that ability on their toon. Now, going out and finding an MC willing to team is another solution. But, and as has been relayed and in my own experiences, finding a good pick up team is time consuming and most oft times nearly impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That censored mission cost my blaster tons of debt just pre-I3. That orange Lesser Devoured was with a hostage around a corner, so no snipe for me - if you can see him, he's in your face. And nope, I don't have superspeed or stealth. It was really, really ugly. I shudder to think about it post-I3. Doubt I'd even have completed the mission solo.

Hmmm. I can see that. One of my group, a Blaster, invested in 2 different holds, and is capable of holding a boss on her own. That gives her time to snipe in relative safety, and unleash a few other attacks, then follow-up with more holds. That tactic has worked in her case.

[ QUOTE ]
If it is now impossible for me to solo kill a boss two levels above me with out a lot of candy. How is it a Boss two levels below me (My character should be a Major Boss in mobs eyes IMO) to kill me after a fairly long battle that I got him down to 1/3 his health. Again this boss was two levels below me and actually conned white to me. I should have no more problems killing it as I would a minion of equal level. Please readjust the Boss levels. Major Bosses, IIE Named Bosses in Missions, AVs, Monsters make them as hard as you want but your everyday run of the mill boss on the street and in a random mission should not be impossible to kill. Your taking the fun out of the game for those who like to solo, who only play 1-2 hours a day (Thus not using up valuable bandwidth) these people are the bread and butter of the game. They are the majority.

Again please reconsider the boss level, and just the boss level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bring up the original post because we're sort of getting side tracked.

Okay, yes...bosses are harder now. Yes, you can, some cases, ignore the boss. Only times when you cannot is when it's a defeat all (known objective or stealthed) or when you must arrest a Named boss (known objective or stealthed).

The OP brings up a good point: a white or lower con boss and ability to deal with it.

Sure, if you have the ability to ignore the mission, you can level and come back in. But even blue bosses are hard. I went into a DE mission with my Blaster (a pick up team where my SGmate was part of for a bit) and the boss was blue. I figured I'd have an even chance. No. It took a swipe, spit, swipe, spit in rapid sucession and I couldn't take it down fast enough. A BLUE boss.

I tested boss difficulty and found a boss green to my L35 Blaster, another DE, and nearly was taken down. Yes, Blasters are squishy, but not THAT squishy. And given how hard hitting the punches in the Electric secondary are, when I can one and twoshot a white and yellow con min and Lt. (and sometimes even orange mins and Lts.), this is just doesn't make sense.

When you go into a mission, solo or teamed, the boss is usually the level of the mission holder and either orange, red, or purple. Okay, given point, makes sense there. But when you're facing cons below your given level and they're such a hardship, that doesn't seem right.

Bottom line: the new boss hp and damage raise has drastically changed the gameplay for a good majority of the player base. Many are finding the change difficult and their reason for playing, the fun factor, is greatly diminished. They must 1) change their way of playing (team more, use more inspirations, skip missions wherever possible), 2) change out enhancements in their current slots (more damages instead of accuracy etc.), 3) respec, or 4) start over with a toon that enables their way of playing.

WHY after 8-9 months of bosses being "too low" as it seems Statesman feels they are, WHY the sudden change? WHY wasn't this fixed before launch? If this was part of his Vision(tm), if it was such an integral thing, then WHY is it just NOW being "corrected"?

That's what has most upset from what I've read and heard in-game. Months of bosses as they were and suddenly a change due to their being "wrong".

Bleh, I'm starting to rant...I'll stop now before I really rev up. Suffice it to say, the boss upgrade really isn't a good idea. For some, it's great, but overall it seems that the majority of the player base, whether they have squishy-shouldn't-be-soloing-in-the-first-place toons or not, isn't happy. And considering the bread and butter of CoH is the casual player, quite frankly angering that portion of the player base really isn't a good idea.

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The problem is, YOU can mez them, you're a Mind Controller. But many of us aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Doh, silly me, I keep forgetting to buy those mez enemy inspirations.

[/ QUOTE ]


Without placing blame for miscommunication, my point hasn't been taken.

The poster said: "You can't comlpete the mission without killing the bosses in order to free the lawyer."

I was making a point in an admittedly smartalec way. The smartalec part is: That poster is dead WRONG. *I* could SOLO that room conned for two people with the tools I have available at the level I got the mission. And I could do it with or without taking down the boss.

But the point part was: the poster used the generic "you" as if to say "Wah! Nobody can solo this mission (without taking down the boss)."

Saying nobody can solo that mission is flat wrong. A number of controllers, most tanks, and most scrappers, can, at that level.

And what's more, all kinds of ATs can solo that room, so long as they're willing to die a few times, and do some running.

The game still has lots of soloable content. You just have to make some semi-intelligent choices about AT or at least powers IF YOU WANT TO SOLO A LOT. That's an EXTREMELY REASONABLE place for the game to be.

The fact that it's not universally soloable by any build whatsoever, for example a melee-oriented blaster with no defenses aside from stealth, is, to be sure, a disheartening development for people like Ahtropa whose melee blaster used to be able to do that stuff.

That flaw lies with the fact that bosses were *ever* soloable to such a character. If CoH had been released in I3 form, we could avoid all this acrimony and the disappointment of players. But the disappointment of individual players over individual characters is does not necessarily mean it's a bad move for the game overall.

Meanwhile, I still would have a rough time being as disappointed as Ahtropa is in her Blapper. I always *thought* her concept for the character was extreme-damage with support. And that character performs SUPERBLY. She and I duoed can take down 10-strong cons of reds as fast as two scrappers, more safely, with only one of us doing any serious damage.

Seriously. I blink, and she has stuff on the pavement. We were routinely taking down +4 clusters including Bosses yesterday; we cleared out two "arrest 50" hunts like that.

That's sick.

From Statesman:
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[Actually, if a boss will appear in a mission, the mission briefing mentions it. Check the text.]

[/ QUOTE ]

From Enantiodromos:
[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean states is wrong? Of coruse it does. He's wrong. But the reason is, there are a couple of exceptional missions that have to be that way for the sake of content, and there's a known bug that's needed to be fixed a long time. And aside from these two things, States is right.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not a flame or a snide comment, I just wanted to address the people who keep pointing out that Stateman is mostly right, that many bosses are "skippable" and we need to read better. The problem is, that isn't what the good Dev said to begin with. He simply stated that if a "boss" (not uppercase, not "named", just boss) *appears* in a mission it will appear in the mission text, which is clearly not the case as a couple of us have screen shots to prove.

The problem with this isn't to just nit pick syntax. I3 has very deeply affected the way I am able to play or enjoy CoH largely due to the fact that I did not pick a FOTM or cookie cutter build. I tried to avoid the "must have" powers unless they fitted my character. I do not have Stealth. I could take Stealth and the other "must haves" but then before I even get to apply concept to my character my secondary and 3 power pools are determined (Devices*, Health, Concealment, Speed (for Hasten)). And I think it's unfair to expect everyone who played CoH because they enjoyed the solo aspect to now, after 8 months, re-create their toon from scratch if they accidentally picked a fun build and didn't have the foresight to see this change coming (out of the blue, many months down the road).

I can't run by a boss if he's protecting the glowie or standing in a narrow hall. I could try, but post 40 they either 1-shot, stun, sleep, mez, KB or make snide remarks that end up in my quick demise.

The fact of the matter is that bosses are a lot harder these days and the gap between classes that can solo and those that can't has gotten very wide; some classes that could solo most content now are finding it very difficult to impossible. We are not all dumb players that can't read. To suggest that we can't read something that is clearly not there (there ARE bosses in missions that are not mentioned, despite whether you must kill them) and very often the bosses strategically protect or are in such a position that for many classes they must be engaged to win.

Should every AT and every player be able to solo all the content. No. Should bosses be trivial to the point that they are just a minion + 5 seconds? No. Should a generic, unnamed boss that is no more special (content-wise) than the minions or lieutenants be able to 1-shot a super hero? No.

If we were just "rescuing kittens, opening doors" kinds of everyday heroes, okay, then maybe I'd agree. But we're supposed to be made of stronger stuff than boy scouts, right?



*Okay, so maybe Devices isn't a must have anymore, for the first couple weeks I was beaten to death by other blasters who were amazed that anyone in their right mind would not take Devices. heh

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[ QUOTE ]
Therfor you can't complete the mission without killing the bosses in order to free the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guys holding aren't bosses. Mez the bosses, kill the hostage holders, and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when did I become a controller to Mez a boss? The 2 DE holding the hostage are located in the middle (not to the side) of a full mob (8 +) of DE containing 1 or more bosses (Lesser Devoured). Every hostage is in this kind of mob. You can't kill the 2 holding the hostage and not fight the whole mob with the boss.

[ QUOTE ]
The game still has lots of soloable content. You just have to make some semi-intelligent choices about AT or at least powers IF YOU WANT TO SOLO A LOT. That's an EXTREMELY REASONABLE place for the game to be.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with the spirit of that comment, although I agree with the comment itself. You're right, if I started over from scratch and applied some basic guidelines as they exist now, post I3, to building a character, in 41 levels I will be able to solo the bosses and missions that I am getting now.

Unfortunately, since we can't respec our AT, primary power pool or secondary pool, I can't simply adjust to the changes. My Fire/Fire blaster can't become a Spine/Regen scrapper and then go take on that boss that's being a pain in my [censored].

The problem isn't that the game now isn't balanced in terms of itself. The game may be much more balanced on a whole. But for many of us that created characters and locked in choices based on the way things were and now stuck very much in the cold with the way things are.

I'm glad you take pity on us poor melee/AoE blasters. It isn't so much that I want to be able to solo 90% of the content. I am willing to live with the changes as they stand if they were applied equally. What is most disheartening to me is that one day I was a super hero, able to fight great evil and feel pretty confident about my power and skill. I had learned to use my powers to a fine edge and ride the thin line between death and glory. People thought I was a nut the way I would put myself in harms way to pull out that last minute victory. I was confident in my abilities.

Now I feel like a hollow shell who runs from groups of minions, is being told that I should ask for help all the while listening to how "scrappers are boss killers" and scrapper after scrapper giddy with power is soloing faster and better now raking in more xp than before. More power to the classes that benefited from this release! I mean them no ill will.

I just don't know why we had to go from many people having fun to many fewer having fun and the rest of us being told to start making scrapper/tank friends if we want to play.

Just seems to me that this "balance" has made some characters powerful, others too weak to solo and removed the feeling of "hero" from many. I refuse to believe that was the intention.

He said that in the context of a discussion of the soloability of a mission. The soloability of a mission does not normally depend on defeating everything in the mission.

His statement at face value means nothing to the soloability of a mission. So in a discussion of the soloability of the mission, we'd have to believe he was making a completely random remark like "the sky is blue" to interpret it as you have.

It goes against common practice in communication to assume people would be making completely random remarks. So we should look for a different intepretation.

Also, every mission I can think of (post L10 or so) can con bosses with the right number of teammates. His statement, taken out of context as you have, must mean: every single mission without exception should warn you that "there may be a boss here."

For one thing, since that's the case, it's common knowledge that every mission can con bosses, and mission breifings ought not waste space mentioning them.

For another, to interpret it this way, you are forced to assume States doesn't understand the basics of how missions con, and doesn't understand what are mandatory elements of mission breifings. IOW, your interpretation requires that we think States is a COMPLETELE ignoramus.

Even were it not completely unreasonable to assume such a thing, according to the standards of communication it's still impolite. Hence we should be looking for other possible interpretations.

In fact, that's a large part of the reason people have been jumping on Statesman's statement. Not to correct actual misalignments of the game (if so, you should be [censored] about the hidden-defeat-all bug), but only because you enjoy sticking it to Statesman with the rude assumption he doesn't know a damn thing about the game he's the lead developer for.

That's very cute, being insulting that way. You'll excuse me for not being impressed with your polemics.

Oh-- Davistian reminds me of something, and though I have to run, I want to say this (not that I'm afraid of having people hate me... but...):

I think it really is reprehensible that they'd push I3 without making the free respec available.

That was a fairly stupid thing to do, and very unfair. I happen to be in a good place with my build, but I'm very sympathetic to people with builds that don't work as well in I3 who don't have respec.

That sucks. Sorry.

[ QUOTE ]
The soloability of a mission does not normally depend on defeating everything in the mission.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, but it does depend on having to kill a boss (actual mission requirement or not) often enough to make his statement, even in the context of soloing a mission, seem a bit disingenous.

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That's very cute, being insulting that way. You'll excuse me for not being impressed with your polemics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite as cute as taking a civil discussion and turning it into a personal insult.

Yes, any mission can have a boss in it, granted. Does that mean every mission has a boss in it? No. Would it therefore be a waste of space to have the text perhaps highlighted in a color reflecting the relative con of the mission. For example, if it is likely to have a boss, make the accept link text orange or red. Easy. No waste of space.

As far as taking Statesman's comment out of context, I have read this thread thru from beginning to end and I did not quote his statement out of context. Was it perhaps not what he meant? Granted. It's a bit naieve to think he doesn't know his own game. What people are discussing here, however, despite what you choose to believe, is that for many of us even normal bosses are show stoppers.

I don't have anything invested in "sticking it to Statesman". In fact I wish, hope, pray that he would come out of hiding more and be MORE clear about this. A simple, one-line it's in the text, read better is insulting since it doesn't address the spirit of the discussion. The topic is that bosses (general, non-specific) are too difficult, not to mention the occasional Named.

I understand that a Named should kick my heroic butt all around the room unless it's that 1% of the time that my advantages far outweigh his. I understand that for the sake of storytelling sometimes we don't know about those bosses. I'll buy all that and think they're good choices. (I disagree that some classes should be able to solo them and others not, however as that goes against them being difficult period to "difficult unless you picked right at the beginning", which doesn't make the boss stronger, but me weaker.)

What I do object to is that there are randomly generated, generic bosses that are no more difficult now than they were before to a few classes, but wipe the floor (like a named boss) of many other classes and MUST be dealt with unless you were smart enough to min/max or lucky enough to pick the right class pre-I3.

I don't think it's too much to ask that considering how different the game is, we get a little forewarning in our missions. Its obvious to me I'm not going to get to respec AT or that they will magically roll back I3 as some people are still hoping for. But at least give us the tools to be able to deal with the sweeping changes that were made.

On a personal note it sucks when my playtime is curtailed because I don't have friends on, have 2 missions with bosses in them, 1 AV mission and have to spend 5-10 minutes flying around PI looking for a street group without a boss so that I can fight something, knowing that there are other AT's chewing through content undeterred by any of the changes and getting more xp to boot. That's why I am disheartened.

So, since we're here to communicate as a community and offer suggestions, there are mine. 1) We need more communication, not less, particularly after a patch that has left many of us upset, confused and confounded. 2) Look at the game mechanics and see if there's someway to help us deal with the changes. If the AT's and powers are more balanced, then a non-power way like color coding misisons or being more clear about whether it is appropriate or not as solo content so that we can make more informed choices. You don't have to even pander! No need to say "Whoa, dude, there's a boss here!"

Hell, the color coding system could even dovetail nicely with the slider so that you could see, by visiting a contact, that your missions have gone from green to yellow to orange to red. Would be a nice visual aid since the mission slider is a bit of a mystery when you encounter it.

Oh ya and bonus points for using "polemics". Guessing that's a first for these boards.

[ QUOTE ]
The soloability of a mission does not normally depend on defeating everything in the mission.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder why you use the word "normally".

In my experience, 'stealthed' boss-missions ARE missions in which you have no choice but to go face-to-face with the big bossman himself. The number of times I HAD to defeat the boss(es) FAR outweigh the number of times I didn't.

Also, I find it QUITE odd that this type of mission is considered to be a "known bug". Why the hell hasn't it been fixed yet? Tonight I had the Tsoo tattoo parlour mission. NOTHING in the mission description said ANYTHING about a boss. Just the "find the blinkies and defeat all Tsoo". In the last room, there he was: Iron Reaver.

Another character, just turned 31. Went into my mission (again, a defeat-all mission) with a group of four. Both that mission and the one immediately after that had bosses. Lots and lots of bosses. The second mission had 7 bosses! Rikti and Nemesis. I can understand the scaling to numbers in a team, but that was a little outrageous.

[ QUOTE ]
He said that in the context of a discussion of the soloability of a mission. The soloability of a mission does not normally depend on defeating everything in the mission.

[/ QUOTE ]

At my level, the soloability of the mission depends on 'defeat all' or 'defeat boss + his mob' or 'defeat archvillian' at least 50% of the time. I think it's a little facetious to attempt to imply otherwise...particularly to all of the people (L25+) who are affected by this change and know better.

While we're discussing in context/out of context, instead of leaning on the letter of the argument, let's examine the spirit of the argument...that the boss change was unnecessary in light of the slider addition, reduces the soloability of some specific AT's, and further increases the already large gap between the AT combinations that have "good" anti-boss powers versus those who do not. And further that that addition of the slider creates an EXPERIENCE inequity between AT sets.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, YOU can mez them, you're a Mind Controller. But many of us aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Doh, silly me, I keep forgetting to buy those mez enemy inspirations.

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Without placing blame for miscommunication, my point hasn't been taken.

The poster said: "You can't comlpete the mission without killing the bosses in order to free the lawyer."

I was making a point in an admittedly smartalec way. The smartalec part is: That poster is dead WRONG. *I* could SOLO that room conned for two people with the tools I have available at the level I got the mission. And I could do it with or without taking down the boss.

But the point part was: the poster used the generic "you" as if to say "Wah! Nobody can solo this mission (without taking down the boss)."

Saying nobody can solo that mission is flat wrong. A number of controllers, most tanks, and most scrappers, can, at that level.

And what's more, all kinds of ATs can solo that room, so long as they're willing to die a few times, and do some running.



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And here is your original statement that I was quoting, especially the last line:


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There are many missions you can complete solo withOUT defeating the bosses in the missions. If you can complete a mission solo, the mission is soloable.

Until HE says to the contrary, I'm remaining convinced that he meant that every mission that *requires* you to beat the boss *to finish the mission* mentions the presence of a boss.

IOW: The issue isn't undocumented bosses, because you don't need to beat those to be able to solo.


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OK, so you’re saying I should be able to solo this mission and not defeat the Lesser Devoured bosses. I think I figured out what you’re actually saying. I can go into the mission and snipe 1 of the DE holding the hostage, run for my life to a different floor or out of the mission, before the rest of the mob/boss 1 hit kills me. Wait for them to go back to their places. Come back and snipe that same DE (who has recovered most of the health I took from him the first time), and repeat running like hell. Now they’ve created a Tree of Life, and then any damage I do from my 1 hit gets healed because if I stay around to put a second shot in I’d have to fight the mob, and that means fighting the boss. Or I can simply put two shots in and die. Not sure if 2 shots would be enough to kill the DE though. If not, by the time I got back he’d be back to full health.

So you’re right, I could sit in this mission doing this over and over and never have to fight the boss. I probably will never complete the mission, but I didn’t have to fight the boss. Maybe I could see if I can recruit an ubber Mind Controller like you to come and help. But that means I’m no longer soloing the mission.

So what you’re really saying is that all of these other missions with bosses in them can be soloed as long as you are willing to die many, many, many times, and spend 6 hours per mission taking pot shots at the bad guy you need to kill.

Sorry, I simply misunderstood your original stand on this issue.

'We shouldn't have it because we didn't have it sooner' is rather poor reasoning, I think. If (as hopefully all of us want) City of Heroes is around for years and years, any change that's better in the long term should probably be undertaken - each day that passes creates a larger and larger group of people who would suffer when it occurs.

Doing well in the past and not doing well (or having fun) now is probably less important than the answer to the question 'could you have fun if this was how things were on day one?'. Or perhaps even more fun? Not with the same character, but with the character you would have made given the different circumstances. Because some people are starting RIGHT NOW.

I think the changes bring things more into line with how things were 'supposed to be' - scrappers do the best solo, tanks survive but progress slowly, and blasters either use extreme caution or make lots of trips to the hospital. Yes, I have characters who will have a tougher time now, though probably not as tough going as many people who have posted here. If it's any consolation, I deleted two characters in their 30's and started over with them before respec because I had made a poor choice - I felt the same principle applied (And I DID have more fun and was much more confident the second time).

I am sorry that many will see the situation as a loss, but would suggest that if the exchange of your time for some fun in the past was worthwhile, you will not really have lost anything. Your investment paid off! Do it again!

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Perhaps, but it does depend on having to kill a boss (actual mission requirement or not) often enough to make his statement, even in the context of soloing a mission, seem a bit disingenous.

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Well, fair enough.

We can disagree on how to characterize how many of them are boss-objective missions. (I think: few, not sure, but I think you think: many.)

And we disagree on whether it's fair to call non-boss-objective missions "soloable." (I think it's very reasonable. You I guess think it's a dodge.)

We do agree, BTW, on whether or not Statesman's treatment of this issue is flip, at this point; it is. I think so, anyhow. If I'm wrong about what he meant, I've already called him an ignoramus. And if I'm right, he should have said what he meant.