Davistian

In case anyone wants to know, there is a thread over in the Developer's Corner started by Statesman (IIRC) about the boss changes where he specifically states the intention of boss changes as well as a basic outline of how/why bosses (including generic, unnamed) show up in a mission.

I found this very enlightening and I hope that with all of the anecdotal evidence people are giving there they really look into what is going on. States said directly:

[ QUOTE ]
A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY.

[/ QUOTE ]

His caps, not mine. A lot of people are chiming in that they feel the # of "boss override" missions are either out of proportion or so great that "boss override" is more the norm.

They are looking into the one-shot issue, apparently.

Thought I would point it out to you folks that haven't seen it yet since it has helped me understand the situation a bit more and it seems like a thread that is being watched more closely by the devs than our current debate.

Very good point. *IF* you can group. The problem lies in the fact that now that is the only way for many classes to enjoy the slider, whereas other classes can enjoy it grouped or ungrouped. An extreme, and a bit far fetched, similar (though not exact) example would be if they released a new zone and said,"Okay, defenders can come here any time for xp, but the rest of you folks need to come in with a defender or in groups of 3+." Would limiting the content (missions) like that be fair in the spirit of promoting groups?

Admittedly it isn't that dire, I can still go into a mission with my slider bumped up one notch or two and just re-enter repeatedly until there isn't a red con mezzer at the door and I can carefully, hazardously try to farm the mission for some XP while I am waiting for a group (sometimes finding one, sometimes giving up after hours of looking and false starts). But I can't finish my mission, I can't "see" the content.

So, although I can group and solve that problem easily, if the arguement for the change is to promote grouping and I am forced to do so, as so many others, why is there even a AT or set of builds that we can point to that are even highlighted as being soloing sets? Either grouping should be good and forced or it should be a choice that individuals can make. It shouldn't be forced for some and purely incidental for others.

Okay, like I said, it's not that dire, I'm talking in some abstraction. I can still group to a certain extent. I don't mind that it's been cutailed to a great degree, but I understand the "promote grouping" logic. It just seems to me that this was the wrong way to do it and it was VERY un-evenly applied if that was the basic intention.

You're turn, fire away.

At the risk of stepping back into the line of fire...

I agree completely that there should be a compelling and sometimes mandatory content driven reason for people to group as opposed to soloing.

It would be ridiculous in an MMORPG (note, the multi-player aspect) to try to provide an lively and interesting single-player experience to everyone who wanted it. Balancing a game so that a single player could successfully accomplish encounters and goals that were balanced for a team would likely be nightmarish and result in essentially two games anyway. CoH was never touted as being a single-player game with incidental multi-player aspects.

That being said, I think that the ability and rewards for soloing should be balanced fairly. If the game is becoming more of what it was intended to be by creating greater and more dangerous obstacles to grouping, why has the game also singled out certain ATs for solo experience bonuses? I have seen many posts of people (mostly scrappers, with the occasional tank or blaster (which boggles my mind!)) who have claimed they have bumped the difficulty slider to the max and are still soloing their way through their missions. Perhaps a little more slowly, but with just as little risk.

If my ability to solo has been reduced with the understandable intention of promoting grouping, why has that intention been applied only to some classes and others? I know the manual says that scrappers are one of the premiere solo classes, but I don't think it mentions they can also do so with a significant XP bonus as well.

Adding a difficulty slider with xp increases to promote grouping for only most classes is not very balanced. If you want balance you don't widen the gap between characters.

I agree, grouping is good and I enjoy grouping. My build shines in a good group since I am not a single target weapon of death. But shouldn't grouping be good and encouraged across the board instead of rewarding some people for picking the right AT and telling others they now have to play by a manual that for many months was left ignored?

On a side note, they've made a lot of changes to the game to differentiate it from what was printed in the manual. I would be hard pressed to say that because this is what the manual originally said it is a good change. Especially since I think that some of the ways the game is different from the original manual (or intent, if they are the same) have made the game much more enjoyable and alive. If the change is truly better for the game, more power to them, and if this change promotes grouping and fosters a better online community, then I will agree its a good change. However, so far I've seen more dissatisfaction, people leaving or shelving toons and unwilling to restart. If the vision is standing in the way of building a stronger online community, shouldn't the vision adapt?

Maybe this is a shakedown. Maybe we should call I3 the begining of CoH 2.0 and just realize this is a different game in many ways; not a game that all the players of CoH 1.0 would want to play. It's sad that they won't be with us in CoH 2.0, but this new version is striving for something other than it's predecessor.

Just my two cents, well...actually a few more than two.

Oh ya and bonus points for using "polemics". Guessing that's a first for these boards.

[ QUOTE ]
That's very cute, being insulting that way. You'll excuse me for not being impressed with your polemics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite as cute as taking a civil discussion and turning it into a personal insult.

Yes, any mission can have a boss in it, granted. Does that mean every mission has a boss in it? No. Would it therefore be a waste of space to have the text perhaps highlighted in a color reflecting the relative con of the mission. For example, if it is likely to have a boss, make the accept link text orange or red. Easy. No waste of space.

As far as taking Statesman's comment out of context, I have read this thread thru from beginning to end and I did not quote his statement out of context. Was it perhaps not what he meant? Granted. It's a bit naieve to think he doesn't know his own game. What people are discussing here, however, despite what you choose to believe, is that for many of us even normal bosses are show stoppers.

I don't have anything invested in "sticking it to Statesman". In fact I wish, hope, pray that he would come out of hiding more and be MORE clear about this. A simple, one-line it's in the text, read better is insulting since it doesn't address the spirit of the discussion. The topic is that bosses (general, non-specific) are too difficult, not to mention the occasional Named.

I understand that a Named should kick my heroic butt all around the room unless it's that 1% of the time that my advantages far outweigh his. I understand that for the sake of storytelling sometimes we don't know about those bosses. I'll buy all that and think they're good choices. (I disagree that some classes should be able to solo them and others not, however as that goes against them being difficult period to "difficult unless you picked right at the beginning", which doesn't make the boss stronger, but me weaker.)

What I do object to is that there are randomly generated, generic bosses that are no more difficult now than they were before to a few classes, but wipe the floor (like a named boss) of many other classes and MUST be dealt with unless you were smart enough to min/max or lucky enough to pick the right class pre-I3.

I don't think it's too much to ask that considering how different the game is, we get a little forewarning in our missions. Its obvious to me I'm not going to get to respec AT or that they will magically roll back I3 as some people are still hoping for. But at least give us the tools to be able to deal with the sweeping changes that were made.

On a personal note it sucks when my playtime is curtailed because I don't have friends on, have 2 missions with bosses in them, 1 AV mission and have to spend 5-10 minutes flying around PI looking for a street group without a boss so that I can fight something, knowing that there are other AT's chewing through content undeterred by any of the changes and getting more xp to boot. That's why I am disheartened.

So, since we're here to communicate as a community and offer suggestions, there are mine. 1) We need more communication, not less, particularly after a patch that has left many of us upset, confused and confounded. 2) Look at the game mechanics and see if there's someway to help us deal with the changes. If the AT's and powers are more balanced, then a non-power way like color coding misisons or being more clear about whether it is appropriate or not as solo content so that we can make more informed choices. You don't have to even pander! No need to say "Whoa, dude, there's a boss here!"

Hell, the color coding system could even dovetail nicely with the slider so that you could see, by visiting a contact, that your missions have gone from green to yellow to orange to red. Would be a nice visual aid since the mission slider is a bit of a mystery when you encounter it.

[ QUOTE ]
The game still has lots of soloable content. You just have to make some semi-intelligent choices about AT or at least powers IF YOU WANT TO SOLO A LOT. That's an EXTREMELY REASONABLE place for the game to be.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with the spirit of that comment, although I agree with the comment itself. You're right, if I started over from scratch and applied some basic guidelines as they exist now, post I3, to building a character, in 41 levels I will be able to solo the bosses and missions that I am getting now.

Unfortunately, since we can't respec our AT, primary power pool or secondary pool, I can't simply adjust to the changes. My Fire/Fire blaster can't become a Spine/Regen scrapper and then go take on that boss that's being a pain in my [censored].

The problem isn't that the game now isn't balanced in terms of itself. The game may be much more balanced on a whole. But for many of us that created characters and locked in choices based on the way things were and now stuck very much in the cold with the way things are.

I'm glad you take pity on us poor melee/AoE blasters. It isn't so much that I want to be able to solo 90% of the content. I am willing to live with the changes as they stand if they were applied equally. What is most disheartening to me is that one day I was a super hero, able to fight great evil and feel pretty confident about my power and skill. I had learned to use my powers to a fine edge and ride the thin line between death and glory. People thought I was a nut the way I would put myself in harms way to pull out that last minute victory. I was confident in my abilities.

Now I feel like a hollow shell who runs from groups of minions, is being told that I should ask for help all the while listening to how "scrappers are boss killers" and scrapper after scrapper giddy with power is soloing faster and better now raking in more xp than before. More power to the classes that benefited from this release! I mean them no ill will.

I just don't know why we had to go from many people having fun to many fewer having fun and the rest of us being told to start making scrapper/tank friends if we want to play.

Just seems to me that this "balance" has made some characters powerful, others too weak to solo and removed the feeling of "hero" from many. I refuse to believe that was the intention.

From Statesman:
[ QUOTE ]
[Actually, if a boss will appear in a mission, the mission briefing mentions it. Check the text.]

[/ QUOTE ]

From Enantiodromos:
[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean states is wrong? Of coruse it does. He's wrong. But the reason is, there are a couple of exceptional missions that have to be that way for the sake of content, and there's a known bug that's needed to be fixed a long time. And aside from these two things, States is right.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not a flame or a snide comment, I just wanted to address the people who keep pointing out that Stateman is mostly right, that many bosses are "skippable" and we need to read better. The problem is, that isn't what the good Dev said to begin with. He simply stated that if a "boss" (not uppercase, not "named", just boss) *appears* in a mission it will appear in the mission text, which is clearly not the case as a couple of us have screen shots to prove.

The problem with this isn't to just nit pick syntax. I3 has very deeply affected the way I am able to play or enjoy CoH largely due to the fact that I did not pick a FOTM or cookie cutter build. I tried to avoid the "must have" powers unless they fitted my character. I do not have Stealth. I could take Stealth and the other "must haves" but then before I even get to apply concept to my character my secondary and 3 power pools are determined (Devices*, Health, Concealment, Speed (for Hasten)). And I think it's unfair to expect everyone who played CoH because they enjoyed the solo aspect to now, after 8 months, re-create their toon from scratch if they accidentally picked a fun build and didn't have the foresight to see this change coming (out of the blue, many months down the road).

I can't run by a boss if he's protecting the glowie or standing in a narrow hall. I could try, but post 40 they either 1-shot, stun, sleep, mez, KB or make snide remarks that end up in my quick demise.

The fact of the matter is that bosses are a lot harder these days and the gap between classes that can solo and those that can't has gotten very wide; some classes that could solo most content now are finding it very difficult to impossible. We are not all dumb players that can't read. To suggest that we can't read something that is clearly not there (there ARE bosses in missions that are not mentioned, despite whether you must kill them) and very often the bosses strategically protect or are in such a position that for many classes they must be engaged to win.

Should every AT and every player be able to solo all the content. No. Should bosses be trivial to the point that they are just a minion + 5 seconds? No. Should a generic, unnamed boss that is no more special (content-wise) than the minions or lieutenants be able to 1-shot a super hero? No.

If we were just "rescuing kittens, opening doors" kinds of everyday heroes, okay, then maybe I'd agree. But we're supposed to be made of stronger stuff than boy scouts, right?



*Okay, so maybe Devices isn't a must have anymore, for the first couple weeks I was beaten to death by other blasters who were amazed that anyone in their right mind would not take Devices. heh

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if a boss will appear in a mission, the mission briefing mentions it. Check the text.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If a player sees a boss of his level, he should probably get help...

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I need to vent now too. I read this today and let me say it got me a little bit miffed. Let me translate...

1. There's nothing wrong with the game, you don't know how to read.
2. There's nothing wrong with the game, you don't know how to solo.

Funny, I thought someone sent something out about a wonderful first 8 months or something? So, for that entire first 8 months when I DID know how to read and I wasn't getting slaughtered by the random boss in my mission, that was all fairy tale? Must've been, because I didn't see anywhere in the patch notes that said "Hey, we noticed everyone had it way to easy, so we're changing the way you have to play drastically." I don't remember being told I had to find a group to finish missions that ALWAYS told me when there was a boss at the end I would not be able to solo (even though I could do it, albeit with some difficulty, for the past 8 months).

Here's a little link. One of my missions...
You may notice, in the mission text there isn't a mention of a boss. In fact there isn't even the mention of rescuing hostages, but reading it literally I should just and watch their performance, which might be dull. Nevermind that the performance is in a warehouse.

Now look at the screenshot. Not only are there people that need to be saved, but there's a boss there! Now being a Fire/Fire without Concealment I can't just run past her to the hostage that you can see placed behind her. Nope. I need to go ask people to help me because I couldn't read.

After 3 deaths trying vainly to prove to myself that I might have a chance (isn't it funny how Carnies can summon Phantasms and cast Spectral Wounds all while Phase Shifted. Neat trick!) I gave up. I logged out. I could've asked for help, but none of my friends are on, they've become disheartened by I3 already. My supergroup was busy or not on (same reason).

So the bosses are worth more XP. So far this one has been worth close to -90k for me. So I'm not a solo AT, funny...I was mislead for the previous 8 months. So I'm not a boss killer, maybe I3 should be relabled the "Rude Awakening" patch.

Okay...i think that's all the venting I needed.

Guys, Devs, States... I love this game. I *PAY* to play this game, that should tell you something, it should tell you I WANT to play this game. I work hard for my money, as do you, so please respect it and me when I choose to give it to you willingly for the enjoyment this game brings. I do NOT want this game to be easy or cater to my every desire. I bought into your vision, it entranced me and got me excited. Why are you blaming me, the player, for not knowing how to read. Why are you changing so drastically things that have been in place for so long (from could kill a boss with strategy and patience to no-way, must group). Why have you taken my "hero" and made me a support character for a Scrapper -- especially when it seems many Scrappers now don't need support at all? Not all Scrappers have been unaffected by this patch, and more power to you guys for your moment on top. I just don't know why it had to come at the price of my enjoyment, my feeling heroic.

*sigh*

On a positive note, the Clockwork Paladin event was fun...complete chaos, but fun. Good job on trying to add some exciting events.