Kin/Elec Meleefender Guide 2.0 (all defs pls read)
Well, you were thinking of ditching CJ/SJ/Acro, right Quason?
So put back IR and Hover, there's your extra power slot for Siphon Power.
Technically, I tried three different builds, Syphon. One had power / no hover/CJ/SJ/Acro, one had power / hover, one had dark.
I'm definitely thrown off by hover for regular fighting, as I'm very, very used to superspeed.
Captain Voltaic - I have a dark/elec, and with the exception of Fulcrum Shift, it's going to play pretty similarly. So his playstyle didn't surprise me too much, including being the safest with end drain.
Syphon - definitely seemed to be faster than CV and my toon at arresting the mobs. I felt like I took the longest, even with permahasten. But that's DoT for you. Double-stacking Fulcrum Shift with TT/NF makes for very fast mob-melting.
Bombast - didn't see too much in action, but the whirlwind use was impressive.
I'm definitely still very torn about the two builds to take.
I'm convinced that if you want to smack around bosses better, power mastery is the way to go.
Kin/*/power = boss-killing goodness. Without Total Focus, I just don't feel like I have the DPS to regularly deal with bosses - and I rarely solo missions anymore. However, disorienting minions AND lieuts with DP + OG is great. That's only available to dark secondary, of course. Soul Drain's damage boost - is hard to guage, since you only get the one icon. Of course, since I am used to jumping into melee (aren't we all) to get my buffs... having two damage buffs to fire off rather than just one is not hard to manage at all. The fact that Soul Drain does some damage to the mobs also is just gravy. FS with 4 recharges comes back faster than Soul Drain with 4 recharges... you can't double-stack Soul Drains.
Admittedly I had trouble with a malta group... when one sapper was too far away from the disorient effect... but I was helped by a timely Speed Boost from Captain Voltaic.
Observing Syphon's use of hover to tank, plus FS/SP was definitely quite impressive. I usually try to stay out of melee range of bosses on my live build, and have not bothered to try to tank AVs or giant monsters. For that, people I play with just tend to get a tanker.
And I have a simple, simple workaround for stamina for nuking... I just make sure to carry CABs. Just as for status effects, I carry some disciplines for the few times I solo. It's pretty easy with 20 insp slots to have some CABs available.
Otherwise, I barely use inspirations except maybe for herd-nuking (4 lucks for the win). One of my in-game SG members commented on how little I needed to use inspirations. Unless I fight Malta or nuke, I just don't need them much.
By the way, if you go energy and take Conserve Power - you can definitely do without Stamina. I don't need to change my playstyle with it, as I still fire off Transference every chance I get... the end drain on mobs is too good...
I think I'll still try out 6-slotted PBU and 2-slotted Conserve Power. That would make CP into more of a last-ditch measure, rather than something I use most of the time... but it may prove useful.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.
Syphon Strike: Bombast and Fallout Phil are me. :-)
Last night was so much fun!
3 lvl 50 Kinetics and a lvl 49 (SK'd) Rad/Rad killed a lvl 50 monster last night on test. It wasn't even HARD. Took about seven minutes (which is even slightly faster than some scrappers can do it without the HP boost). With all the Fulcrum Shifting going around, the monster was hitting me for about 40 points of damage per foot stomp. THAT's insane. :-D
I'm used to doing the most damage in any all-defender/controller team when I'm using Fallout Phil. I made a comment to Quason that, "With you guys tossing out Total Focus all the time, I can barely keep aggro!" And it was true. Total Focus ROCKS. :-)
Quason's build made me jealous to see it in action. I'll be more effective with Bombast after I respec him and start playing regularly again. But Syphon's description was correct... ferret on speed is about what he's supposed to be. :-)
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For real tho, Siphon Power is definately getting squeezed back into the build somewhere, but I have to figure out what to drop. Any suggestions?
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Actually, yeah - drop Aim. Power Build Up does the same thing but better. And given that you have it loaded with recharges you'll have it ready for virtually every fight. That frees up the power slot. I would find one extra enhancement slot from somewhere - you want _AT LEAST_ two recharges in Siphon Power for it to really be effective, ideally a third for an end reduction, but I wasn't able to find that spare third slot myself so I can easily see you having a similar problem...
But, yeah, drop Aim. It's useful (I certainly won't argue it's use, at all...) but its usefulness is already provided via PBU.
Another suggestion, which I know will sound really wacky, but here it goes - drop your nuke. You said you really don't like using it and I think I saw you use it once last night, mostly just to test it while the rest of us were nuking, but your play style really appears to not rely on it. If that's the case, dump it.
Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!
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Two suggestions Quason, either go the no Stamina route or drop Aim. With only the dfault slot in Aim its not like its getting that much use, an accuracy insperation can cover for it, allowing you to get SP with the default slot.
As for Stamina, I find I get along well without it. You might be too spoiled by it to cope without it 
, but its definately doable.
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Oh, we know it's certainly doable (watching Kinetic Barbie in action proved that) but, as I said somewhere (maybe another thread) going from relying on Stamina to not having it is a DRASTIC shift in playstyle. It would require a lot of training to get back to a similar level of effectiveness. Going the other way would be much easier, but going from Stamina to no Stamina is really hard. To make the no Stamina route work, I believe you have to never take it so you never learn to rely on it - you begin teaching yourself how to play without it right from the beginning. If you do that, you are able to do fine. If you take Stamina and become reliant on it, it's like chopping a leg off to get rid of it.
This is no judgement on the functionality of either option, just that one requires skill to work well while the other allows you to focus on other things. Both have advantages and drawbacks but, lacking the skill to make no Stamina work makes switching to that a painful process.
Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!
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Another suggestion, which I know will sound really wacky, but here it goes - drop your nuke. You said you really don't like using it and I think I saw you use it once last night, mostly just to test it while the rest of us were nuking, but your play style really appears to not rely on it. If that's the case, dump it.
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It's not entirely wacky and something I've been pondering lately myself. I love the damage capability of it, but the disorient/regen hit is more than a little non-group friendly.
If nothing else, there's a certain flow and constant go go go nature to Kinetics that the 38 Nuke interrupts.
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Well, you were thinking of ditching CJ/SJ/Acro, right Quason?
So put back IR and Hover, there's your extra power slot for Siphon Power.
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Did Quason have Hover before? I know he was asking whether I was using hover as I flew around in fights (as I said, I was - four slots for flight speed, one for end reduc (had to steal a slot for my epics)) so I got the impression he hadn't had it for his build before. If so, Quason might experience the same learning curve issues you're dealing with - shifting your playstyle from a 2d environment to a 3d one probably has the same learning curve issues as going from Stamina to no Stamina - sure, it can be done, but it's a big shift...
Still, everyone should know by now how much I love hover... 
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Technically, I tried three different builds, Syphon. One had power / no hover/CJ/SJ/Acro, one had power / hover, one had dark.
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Oh yeah, that's right. Forgot about the two non-dark versions. Man, you have a hard choice to make. I love Power Mastery and it is simply awesome, but you made superb use of /dark... Good luck making that choice... Really...
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I'm definitely thrown off by hover for regular fighting, as I'm very, very used to superspeed.
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If you give it time, you will get used to it. The question is, is the hassle of the learning process worth the payoff in the end. For me, the learning process to make a no Stamina build isn't worth it. Might be the same for hover for you - if superspeed works... But, being able to get above the heavy hitting melee attacks is really sweet...
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I'm convinced that if you want to smack around bosses better, power mastery is the way to go.
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Interestingly, for me, Total Focus isn't so much about the damage (though it is freakin' sweet) - it's the disorient. I had mine slotted with two recharge (I am the king of recharge reductions!!) and one disorient duration which allowed me to pretty much chain mez bosses. Once I got Siphon Power and FS firing, I was able to buff its damage, but I wanted it activating often and lasting a while. Made it safe. I was able to take on two death mages at once because I'd swoop in and pound one in the skull and immediately switch to the other and transference him. Assuming both attacks hit, I was golden from that point forward. I'd keep the second boss on his butt with TKBlast and drained of end with the trans powers (not locked at zero like Quason could, but certainly drained of enough end that he couldn't use any big attacks...) and as soon as TF recharged, I'd switch back to the first mage and thump him in the skull again. Once the second mage was arrested, I'd switch back to the first and finish him off.
For me, Total Focus rules because of it's disorient. The damage is just nice icing on the cake.
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Observing Syphon's use of hover to tank, plus FS/SP was definitely quite impressive. I usually try to stay out of melee range of bosses on my live build, and have not bothered to try to tank AVs or giant monsters. For that, people I play with just tend to get a tanker.
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We aren't tankers (tankers are, after all, tankers...) but I think that kinetics and dark can do a good job of mimicking tankers. And I think kinetics is better at it with the tools they have available. Assuming we can survive long enough to get two FSs and two SPs stacked, very few opponents can do enough damage to threaten a character. People constantly say we can't _defender_ but I really don't think they've seen us in action in the right circumstances... Against big foes, we are THE defender, imho. If a fight is going to last a bit of time, we are probably the best defender to have on a team...
I may be biased, of course, but...
Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!
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Syphon Strike: Bombast and Fallout Phil are me. :-)
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Cool!
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Last night was so much fun!
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Sure was. I really wish that we could do meaningful cross server play rather than the meaningless play on test...
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3 lvl 50 Kinetics and a lvl 49 (SK'd) Rad/Rad killed a lvl 50 monster last night on test. It wasn't even HARD. Took about seven minutes (which is even slightly faster than some scrappers can do it without the HP boost). With all the Fulcrum Shifting going around, the monster was hitting me for about 40 points of damage per foot stomp. THAT's insane. :-D
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I've long said that kinetics + raiation = UBER!! Well, I add an extra word in there but the boards will filter it out... We buff teammates up and rad pushes foes down. Equals insane numbers.
As for the debuffing, just as myself, I'm generally able to drop a monster's attacks down to around 10%-ish (dropping it from about 700 down to about 70 per hit) if I get things stacking well. And 70 points per hit is nothing... There are minions in the game that hit harder than that... Once the four of us jumped that monster, it was fantastic.
The great thing for me - since you guys were on the ground, the monster switch to its foot stomp and thus, since I was hovering, I wasn't touched at all.
Muahahahahaha!!
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Quason's build made me jealous to see it in action. I'll be more effective with Bombast after I respec him and start playing regularly again. But Syphon's description was correct... ferret on speed is about what he's supposed to be. :-)
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Seriously, it was impressive to watch. I would never recommend /energy for a kinetic but you certainly make it a very workable build. As with a lot of the powers in the game, making it work requires a lot of skill and you've clearly developed that skill. It does require a lot of zipping around but the foes were on their butts so often and barely able to get their beaerings... If someone is looking for a hectic, fast paced kinetics defender and doesn't mind zipping around in combat, I would now HIGHLY recommend /energy as their secondary. If they can develop the skill, it looks like it would be a ton of fun to play.
(I probably should have consolidated these replied into one message...)
Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!
Well, for me, there's little more satisfying in this game, well, with this toon anyway, than doing a good Fulcrum buff and nuking a group.
It just doesn't get old.
I'll happily put up with the annoyance of having to retoggle for that kind of power.
Basically, after nuking, I pop a CAB, pop Transference and Transfusion if necessary - and I'm right back in the fight.
The sliver of end stamina provides me is enough to Transference, and that's nice... but do does popping a CAB.
That's me.
I think Quason may miss it, but unless he's used up all his respecs, he can always get it back later. If you don't use a power much, don't take it.
The only argument i might make for keeping it, for a last-ditch "defense" measure when the group agros too much, a nuke - especially a *ranged* nuke like Thunderous Blast - can really save the day, especially if PBU's up and you have a solid fulcrum buff from the current group you're fighting.
...
Total Focus. Yeah, on the boss-killing end, the disorient is great. It's always been frustrating that Dark Pit only disorients minions - but that's the nature of the power. But with Transference alone, I can't always snipe successfully against a boss... if the boss is alone, TF + Transference = very effective sniping, and Moonbeam recharges a lot faster than Total Focus. And while there are debates on the DPS of snipe vs gloom vs dark blast... TF + gloom + Moonbeam > gloom + moonbeam alone.
Now, if OG + DP could disorient bosses... that would rock, and be a point back in favor of /dark.
With our heal, OG is a very safe power to use. Soul Drain + Fulcrum = more consistent damage, and the /dark combo is probably safer, if anything, for nuking than /power.
I think if I do go /dark, the main thing I'd change is 6 recharge in Blackstar. I'm not interested in Dark Consumption, anyway, as Transference fulfills all my endurance needs. Torrent + TT them into a corner, Dark Pit them, run in with OG On, Fulcrum Shift, Soul Drain - nuke.
Quite safe ... unless one of the status mobs isn't disoriented. $%^ sappers.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.
Five Stars, great post
[i]On Infinity (and BEYOND)[i]
========================
The Living Dragon NRG Blaster
Warchild Pyre FireFire Tanker
Lady Mentat Illusion Empathy Controller
Warchild Flux Spines/Regen Scrapper
DarkScion Rex Kinetics Dark Offender
Kid Magnum DM / Invuln Scrapper
Senor' Vargas Broadsword / Regen Scrapper
KAZAMAJin on Guardian DM / Invuln Scrapper
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
Still my favorite quote of the evening:
"What the..? He used Whirlwind for something other than changing costumes!?"
Awesome work everyone! Sorry I couldn't be there...but really, my build wouldn't have shown you anything that you didn't see with Quason. Perhaps at some point in the future I can join you with my no-stamina, too many toggles build (one i design it, level up, and espec into it...)
Quason -
Out of curiosity, did you try slotting some Rchg into your attacks as suggested above? I find I perfer the Healx3/Acc/Rchgx2 Transfusion over your Healx5/Acc version. If not is that slotting idea planned for the next test batch?
Hmmmm Apparently Slowing down bosses isn't an advantage
Hmmmm Apparently have a travel power at lvl 6 isn't an advantage either!
Hmmmm Apparently not get the Accuracy Penalty associated with Super Speed isn't an advantage either!
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i love siphon speed. it's a great dual effect power and really epitiomizes what a kin def is all about. it works great on AVs and for that one runner trying to get you to aggro another mob. however, it's getting the hit by the nerf bat on update 3. no longer will it make a difference you will always get a base speed equal to that of someone you speed boosted. i have teleport so i also have hover. let me tell you there's nothing more liberating than being able to siphon speed and gray and then fly around with the rest of your airborne buddies. but no more, alas, no more = (.
Magus Prime- lev 50 kin/ elec defender
Meta-Human- lev 50 fire/ ss tank
Cabal Bravo- lev 50 merc/ ff master mind
Schwarzchild- lev 50 grav/ ff controller
Shanghai Storm- lev 50 ma/invinc scrapper
Nicodemus- lev 50 db/ regen scrapper
Dragonhyde- lev 50 wp/ sm tank
On The Pinnochle server!
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Out of curiosity, did you try slotting some Rchg into your attacks as suggested above? I find I perfer the Healx3/Acc/Rchgx2 Transfusion over your Healx5/Acc version. If not is that slotting idea planned for the next test batch?
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I'll definately try that. To be honest, I'm not optimistic about slotting stuff for recharges. As I mentioned in the strategy section of the guide, fights are already a mad clickfest for me. Powers coming up faster is just going to make that worse.
As it is, I have some powers sititng in the tray unused occasionally. Having the powers recharge that much faster will just be a waste of resources for me, I believe. But I WILL try it, tinker with it, and see if I can get results from slotting just one or two powers (like ball lightning and transfusion) with recharges.
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Hmmmm Apparently Slowing down bosses isn't an advantage
Hmmmm Apparently have a travel power at lvl 6 isn't an advantage either!
Hmmmm Apparently not get the Accuracy Penalty associated with Super Speed isn't an advantage either!
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Advantage? Sure.
Big enough advantage to take the power? Not for most.
Also the lack of a stealth on Siphon Speed got me killed a whole lot in beta. I wouldn't recommend the power to anyone, especially Meleefenders.
Quason,
I expect you are reluctant to get rid of Aim because it sets up Short Circuit, which doesn't have any accuracy slots.
I'm really interested in any testing you do without it because I'm also looking for an extra power spot on my Kin/Elec (currently level 37). She's based on your template, but with Fighting instead of Fitness. I also still have Siphon Power - was actually considering respec'ing out of it until reading this post :-).
I really want to try Thunderous Blast at 38, but have pretty much decided to take Acrobatics instead. If I respec Acrobatics for Aim, I can take Thunderous Blast at 38 and have room for the whole Power Mastery pool later on.
Thanks for all the great info! Awesome thread!
Edit cause I just thought of something. Does Power Build Up increase the end drain of Short Circuit? If so, that might enable you to switch out one or two end drain enhancements for accuracy enhancements and mitigate dropping Aim. Just a thought.
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Edit cause I just thought of something. Does Power Build Up increase the end drain of Short Circuit? If so, that might enable you to switch out one or two end drain enhancements for accuracy enhancements and mitigate dropping Aim. Just a thought.
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Yes PBU does increase the amount of end drain done. This means you can either drain higher level enemies, or do as suggested and add some Acc instead.
i have a 50 kin/elec def on pinnacle. he is by far my favorite toon to play. currently he has two powers in leadership, tp, hover, and concealment.
on test i dumped leadership and picked up speed and the power mastery pool. i didnt take total focus and power build up. the reason being is that i didn't like how tf was so slow in execution and i don't need pbu when i can fs safely in a mob w/ ti on.
i lost siphon speed and repel, sadly. i love the visual effect of repel and siphon speed has come in handy and would have kept it if not for the nerf. but these sacrifices had to be made for the new and improved magus prime. i mess around with him a lot on test. he is so much fun. i was already pleased with how self-sufficient my live toon is. the test version is so much better!
and to top it all off i totally lucked out. originally, i was going to make him kin/nrg but decided to change it at the very last second because elec is more fitting to my toon him being a wizard and all. which is a good thing because i'm not a big fan of knockback. no offense to nrg blasters and defenders. knockback has saved my life many a time. 
Magus Prime- lev 50 kin/ elec defender
Meta-Human- lev 50 fire/ ss tank
Cabal Bravo- lev 50 merc/ ff master mind
Schwarzchild- lev 50 grav/ ff controller
Shanghai Storm- lev 50 ma/invinc scrapper
Nicodemus- lev 50 db/ regen scrapper
Dragonhyde- lev 50 wp/ sm tank
On The Pinnochle server!
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Thunderous Blast: Strangely enough, optional. I really only use this to end fights faster. This build is going to be very toggle heavy, and having to turn off those toggles back on after you use TB is very annoying. I don't recommend even slotting this beyond a single recharge reducer. You'll cap your damage with Fulcrum Shift on any spawn big enough to justify using this.
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Based on this quote from Quason's original build, how vital is the power "Thunderous Blast"? I've got a level 32 Kin/Elec, so I've never experienced the power firsthand, which is why I'm asking. Is it similar to Blackstar but on the End side of things? Based on the HeroPlanner description, is it even possible to pop a CAB, hit a Transference, and just keep on ticking? Or is there a downtime post-boom? If there *is* a downtime post-boom where end can't be recovered, and you're soloing, aren't you leaving yourself out in the cold?
I'm just trying to use my newbiness to work in Siphon Power into the build so I can do my respec
As many have said, thanks for the guide, Quason.
Project 86 - Bane SoA
Threat Agent - Elec/Shield Scrapper
Voodoo Hood - Thugs/Dark MM
And numerous other minions as well...
Thunderous Blast does damage (at range! not like Blackstar/nova), and has a secondary effect of end drain.
You can't regen end normally for something like 20 seconds, but pop a CAB, fire off Transference on a mob in melee range, and you're back up and running. I do that often.
Or, if you're lucky enough to play with a second kinetic, just have THEM fire off Transference.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.
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i love siphon speed. it's a great dual effect power and really epitiomizes what a kin def is all about. it works great on AVs and for that one runner trying to get you to aggro another mob. however, it's getting the hit by the nerf bat on update 3. no longer will it make a difference you will always get a base speed equal to that of someone you speed boosted.
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Is this true for the end drain on Transference as well? My test on the training room this week indicate that the higher the mob level, the less end is drained. Funny thing is I can completely drain an orange boss but not an orange minion.
50 Fire/Dev | 50 AR/Dev | 50 Ninjas/FF MM | 50 Bots/Dark | 50 Kin/Rad |
44 EM/Regen | 39 BS/Regen | 38 Kin/Elec | 27 Thugs/Pain
"Rare is the man so noble that he will always give thanks for that which is freely given." -Jock_Tamson
That's because an orange minion is two levels higher than an orange boss.
Drains work on the level. What they "con" doesn't seem to be important.
Well I knew it was always that way before. But I interpreted one of the update 3 notes to mean that powers that drain were not going to be level dependent anymore. I guess they still are.
50 Fire/Dev | 50 AR/Dev | 50 Ninjas/FF MM | 50 Bots/Dark | 50 Kin/Rad |
44 EM/Regen | 39 BS/Regen | 38 Kin/Elec | 27 Thugs/Pain
"Rare is the man so noble that he will always give thanks for that which is freely given." -Jock_Tamson
Hey BlackFlash, I answered that for you. They're not talking about "powers that drain" in the way you think. They're talking about "powers that drain and buff the caster." (Which means powers that drain and add health or endurance or who knows what else. Now they'll add a consistant amount of health or endurance back, no matter what the level difference between you and the villain.)
It's great to see some of the regular faces chat about the high level diffrences in your builds like this
Sucking up aside has anyone tried the electric mastery set at all? I'm only 35 at the moment but thunderous strike sounded like a good potential aoe to my build and the new energy res in charged armour sounded pretty special. I know i'd be losing power build up but power sink charges in a decent time from what i gather from blasters so may add the extra end drain to balance out the loss of power buildup and provide even more end. I'm probably gonna start the energy epp then respec into elec at 47 for power sink etc and try it as a alternate to stamina. Any thoughts from you guys would be greatly appreciated and cheers for the post to! 