City of Heroes - Live Forum Archive > Defenders > Kin/Elec Meleefender Guide 2.0 (all defs pls read)

Posted 12-08-2004 05:52 AM

Introduction

Before I even get started, let me point out that this is not just a guide for kin/elecs. Please skip down to the conclusion to see why.

Some of you may be familiar with my first Kin/Elec build guide, some may not. I think the first thing I should do is explain the intent of this guide, and of the build. This guide is an outline. I'll get very specific about powers I do and do not recommend for the build,and how I recommend them to be slotted, but the decision is, of course, ultimately up to the player. For example, I detest the leadership pool and refuse to take it. Others swear by it. To each his or her own, that's fine. It's not my intention to set forth a "cookie cutter" build and insist that everyone build it exactly to spec to meet with my satisfaction.

The intent of this build is, simply put, to make a tankmage. I am a min/maxer and make absolutely no apologies for it. I've studied these forums for a while now, memorized numbers, learned the math, tested the powers, and found ways to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every last power, pool, and slot as was possible within the confines of the game mechanic. Priority is given to this build for soloing, with a nod to grouping. This build will retain its usefulness to a group, in some very unique ways not found in any other defender (or even kinetic defender) build, but its primary focus is soloability. This can be taken to the solo extreme by dropping powers like Increase Density and Speed Boost, but taking it much closer to the grouping extreme will negate what I've made here. Again, it's ultimately the decision of the player whether or not to do that.

One more thing before I get started. For the most part, I'm not going to give descriptions of the Kinetic and Electric powers. This is an advanced-level guide. I'm going to assume some basic knowledge of the powersets. However, there are no stupid questions. If you don't know or understand something, PLEASE ask me, no matter what it is. I'll do my best to answer.

Powers

Kinetics

Transfusion: Definately a must-have. The melee-range nature of the heal matches perfectly with the playstyle of the build. Slot with 4 heal and 2 acc, because you REALLY want this to land. Be careful of the "false positive" bug on this one. Be sure to target the mob with the most remaining HP when you use this power, just to be sure it doesn't die during the cast. Also, while transfusion does drain a bit of endurance, the amount is relatively small and a non-factor for this build.

Siphon Power: Must have for the early game. Not so much for the late game. This is your only means of damage buffing until you get Fulcrum Shift at 32. Slot it with 1 acc and 2 recharge. It's not a big deal if it misses. Concider specing this power out, or atleast moving the slots out of it, once you get FS. Be sure to utilize the debuff of this power as much as the buff. Always target the biggest damage threat you're currently fighting.

Repel: Absolutely useless, and in fact detrimental, to this build. It runs completely counter to what you're trying to accomplish here.

Siphon Speed: Not recommended. I just don't get any use out of this power.

Increase Density: Must have for anyone that's not going for a 100% solo build. Use it before battle as status protection, or retroactively once someone is mezzed to free them. Also, keep in mind that ID also gives damage resistance to Smashing and Energy. This is great during the praetorian archvillain battles, especially against mobs like Nightstar that use Nova. Slot with a single recharge reduction, end reduction, or damage resist.

Speed Boost: Recommended. You could skip this if you're going for a 100% soloing build. Otherwise, slot with 3 end recovery enhancements.

Inertial Reduction: I don't recommend taking this power anymore. My new build includes the leaping pool, and I'm going to recommend taking superjump, making this power useless.

Transference: Must have. Essential to the build for MANY reasons. I recommend slotting with 1 acc, 1 end drain, 2 recharge, and 2 end recovery. You could also replace the end drain with another accuracy if you wanted.

Fulcrum Shift: Must have. The usefulness of this power just can not be overstated. Slot with 2 accuracy and 4 recharge.

Electrical Blast

Charged Bolts: Must have, only because you have no choice but to take it. I'm really not a big fan of this attack. I just don't feel like it's worth slotting, and this build is more about AoE damage than single target damage. Slot with 1 acc or damage or end drain or end reduction or whatever. It doesn't really matter.

Lightning Bolt: Must have. This will be your only decent single target attack for a long time in this build. Slot with 1 acc and 5 dmg.

Ball Lightning: Must have. Absolutely essential to the build. This one of your two bread and butter attacks. Slot with 1 acc and 5 dmg.

Short Circuit: Must have. Absolutely essential to the build. This power is your primary source of defense. Slot with 6 end drains. You'll get your damage out of this power from Fulcrum Shift, the end drain is more important.

Aim: Optional but recommended. It's nice to have the accuracy buff when you need it, but you won't gimp yourself by skipping it. Slot with a recharge, and maybe dump an extra slot or two into it if you can find them lying around.

Zapp: Not recommended. Since this is an interruptable attack, it's usefulness is very low in melee range, which is where you'll spend much of your time. This is ordinarily an attack people use at the beginning of a fight, but you'll be opening fights with Short Circuit, so it's pretty worthless.

Telsa Cage: Not recommended. You'll be "holding" your mobs by end draining them. I've never taken this power, and I've never needed it. It might become useful during PvP, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

voltaic Sentinel: Optional. I really don't care for this power at all. It might be nice if you could manage to slot it, but I just can't spare the slots for it. Also, it can be detrimental due to the fact that you'll be running around invisible, and it tends to have a mind of its own. It's gotten me killed before.

Thunderous Blast: Strangely enough, optional. I really only use this to end fights faster. This build is going to be very toggle heavy, and having to turn off those toggles back on after you use TB is very annoying. I don't recommend even slotting this beyond a single recharge reducer. You'll cap your damage with Fulcrum Shift on any spawn big enough to justify using this.

Power Pools

Only going to list the relevant powers here. If I don't list it, I don't recommend it. I feel that all the powers I do list here are must haves and absolutely crucial to the build.

Speed

Hasten: Another powers whose usefulness to this build cannot possibly be overstated. It's imperitive that powers like short circuit, ball lightning, transfusion, and transference cycle as quickly as possible. Slot with 6 recharge.

Super Speed: This + Stealth = invisibility. You REALLY want to be invisible with this build. Slot with a single end reducer, since you'll be turning it on and leaving it on.

Fitness

Swift: Throw away power.

Hurdle: Throw away power.

Stamina: Kinetics are always going to debate about whether or not we need stamina, but for this build, I don't feel like there's even a question. It's absolutely 100% necessary. We're going to be running a LOT of toggles, and if you don't have stamina, you WILL have a net loss of endurance while standing still between fights. Slot with 6 end recovery.

Concealment

Stealth: Again, this + Super Speed = invisibility. Also, this power provides quite a substantial defense bonus. Not getting hit is a good thing. Slot with 6 def buffs.

Leaping

Combat Jumping: Mostly a throw away power, but it DOES have a small defense bonus, which is nice if not completely necessary, and makes you immune to immobilization, which is also nice. Slot with an end reducer. I find that the small amount of end cost reduction an end reducer gives is preferable to the 1% def bonus a defbuff would give.

Super Jump: Vertical travel is a good thing, and since we're taking this pool anyway, we may as well take this power and drop Inertial Reduction. Slot with a jump enhancer.

Acrobatics: The reason we took this pool. Status effects are always going to be a problem for this build, but atleast this partially mitigates it. Protects against holds and knockdown, but not sleep and disorient.

Power Mastery

I chose this pool over electric mastery primarily because of Power Build Up. Increasing your end drain is ALWAYS going to be a good thing on this build. The damage buff is often academic when you're using Fulcrum Shift, but it's nice against smaller spawns of tougher mobs.

Power Build Up: Increases damage and end drain. It's supposed to increase healing too, but it doesn't for kinetics. Geko says this is a known bug they're working on. I'm suspecting that it doesn't increase the endurance gained from transference either, but it's hard to tell. Also not sure what kind of effect it has on Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power. This will need to be tested. Slot with 6 recharge.

Temp Invul: YEAAAAAAAH!! I'm SO glad we got something like this so I could drop the fighting pool. Currently, it appears as tho this gives a 33% base resist to smashing and lethal, enhanceable up to 72.6%. This very well be reduced at some point, but even if it does, the value of this damage resistance is immeasurable. Slot with 6 damage resists.

Total Focus: Your new bread and butter single target attack. Does insane damage, and can perma-disorient a boss. Surprisingly, this disorient can occasionally be a bad thing since the mob can wander out of melee range, but I find that if I just put the target on follow and chase him around as he staggers, the rest of the mobs come with me. Slot with 1 acc and 5 dmg.

Conserve Power: I find the best use for this power is when I'm in a particularly rough fight, and miss a much-needed transference. The recharge on this power is too long to use every fight, so it's best used in emergencies. Reduces the amount of endurance each power uses significantly, making endurance pretty much a non-factor for you for the duration of the power. Since I'm recommending that you take this as your last power, at level 49, the best you can do is 2 slot it, which I recommend you do. 2 recharge.

Finished Build

Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Buff/Debuff : Kinetics
Secondary Powers - Ranged : Electrical Blast
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Transfusion /Heal,Heal,Heal,Heal,Heal,Acc
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Charged Bolts /Dmg
Slot[03] Level 2 : Lightning Bolt /Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Acc
Slot[04] Level 4 : Ball Lightning /Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Acc
Slot[05] Level 6 : Hasten /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[06] Level 8 : Increase Density /DamRes
Slot[07] Level 10 : Short Circuit /EndDrn,EndDrn,EndDrn,EndDrn,EndDrn,EndDrn
Slot[08] Level 12 : Speed Boost /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[09] Level 14 : Super Speed /EndRdx
Slot[10] Level 16 : Swift /Run
Slot[11] Level 18 : Hurdle /Jump
Slot[12] Level 20 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[13] Level 22 : Aim /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[14] Level 24 : Stealth /DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[15] Level 26 : Transference /Acc,EndDrn,Rchg,Rchg,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[16] Level 28 : Combat Jumping /DefBuf
Slot[17] Level 30 : Super Jump /Jump
Slot[18] Level 32 : Fulcrum Shift /Acc,Acc,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[19] Level 35 : Acrobatics /EndRdx
Slot[20] Level 38 : Thunderous Blast /Rchg
Slot[21] Level 44 : Temp Invul /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[22] Level 41 : Power Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[23] Level 47 : Total Focus /Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Acc
Slot[24] Level 49 : Conserve Power /Rchg,Rchg

Solo Strategy

I'm not going to list group strategy here, because that's not within the scope of this guide. Also, your best bet is to find the largest spawns you can possibly find, since most of your damage is AoE. The more mobs you fight, the more DPS you'll be doing.

Setting Up

Toggle on super speed, combat jumping, acrobatics, stealth, and temp invul (told ya it was toggle heavy). You're now completely invisible to anything but Rikti Advanced Drones, Knives of Artemis, and Rularuu eyeballs. Position yourself as best you can into the dead center of the spawn you're attacking, locate the primary threat, and put it on follow. Hit Aim, Power Build Up, and short circuit, quickly followed by Fulcrum Shift. If the boss isn't quite drained, hit him with transference to finish him off. Hopefully, you just completely drained all endurance from all mobs and are perfectly safe. If you missed a few, don't sweat it. Trust your defense, damage resistance, damage debuff, and self heal to keep you safe. At this point, if the spawn is big enough (or you're just lazy) you can hit Thunderous Blast, transference, clean up, and move on. Otherwise, proceed to the next step.

The Battle

We're picking up here after the first Fulcrum Shift. The rest of the fight is going to consist of hitting buttons as fast as you possibly can. Short circuit is your #1 priority. NEVER let it sit in your powertray charged and unused. If you have to delay another power for a moment, even your heal, do it. Short circuit is your primary defense from mezzes and damage. Your next priority (aside from end and HP recovery) is Ball Lightning, which is going to be doing the majority of your damage in most fights. Toss in total focus and lightning bolt as you have time on the biggest threat. Be sure to keep the target of total focus on follow so you can keep with it as it staggers around. The rest of the mobs should keep up with you. Basically, what you're doing here is clicking buttons just as fast as your finger can hit the mouse button. Fights can get frantic at times as you try to hit transfusion, transference, fulcrum shift, lightning bolt, total focus, short circuit, and ball lightning as quickly as they recharge. Thankfully, most minions drop after a SC,BL,SC,BL volley. It's mostly clean up after that.

Conclusion

Please note that this guide was intended to be a compendium to my first Kin/Elec Meleefender guide. Basically what I've done here is bring all the info in THAT guide up to date with some things I've learned, as well as the addition of the epic pool. You can find a link to that guide in the Defender Guides thread in the defender forum. The build I propose in this guide is a respec of the build I propose in the first guide. Your best bet is probably to build something closer to what I have in the first guide, work it up to level 42, and respec to the build I propose in this guide. I find the fighting pool to be absolutely crucial to the success of this build before the epic pool defenses become available.

This build started out as a "what if" scenario between El Rico (who I haven't heard from in a while) and myself, and has just blossomed from there. Since I wrote the first guide, this build has steadily become more and more viable. The availability of large high-level spawns in the Shadow Shard make leveling easier and faster in the late game. Also, Issue 3 will be a godsend to this build as well, bringing the epic pools, increased healing from transfusion, and better results from Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power.

Finally, as you can see, I've left this guide relatively sparse. All I've included here is a rough outline of the proposed build and some basic strategies. The reason I did this is because I'd like this to become a joint project of the entire defender community. I don't wanna get on a soapbox here, but I'd really like to see the defender community rise above the "support class" role and establish some real independance. As the other ATs undergo change after change, defenders have mostly kept to themselves, quiet and under the radar screen. Don't tell anyone, but Defenders are the real tankmages of this game, enjoying an even better synergy between damage and defense than many scrapper builds. It's just that, under the thumb of the support role, a lot of that potential has yet to be realized.

So, I'd like to hear input from ALL defenders on this, regardless of primary or secondary or level. If you can do something similar to what this build can do with a different set of powers, or a different strategy, I'd like to discuss how. Again, tho, I'd like to keep this primarily to soloing discussions. There are already many many discussions and build suggestions out there for grouping defenders.

Thanks for reading,
Q

Posted 12-08-2004 05:56 AM

You might want to fix your reference to siphon speed in the powers section. It got muddled with Speed Boost on you.

Otherwise, a nice read.

Posted 12-08-2004 06:05 AM

Fixed, thank you.

Posted 12-08-2004 06:09 AM

Regarding tesla cage from my own experiences, I'd actually say (should you find a spot) that it would be a very helpful power to have in this build.

Reason being that even if you do land the first short circuit, it may drain fully minions, but might have a harder time on the lt's. And there's a lot of really annoying mobs including DE and rikti mezzers that fall into the lt category who will still get a shot off and the chance to cause you problems. Doubly so as many of them chuck sleeps, which the build does lack defense against. But if you get the first hold off on them, it makes them sitting ducks for anything else including the short circuit follow ups.

Been very helpful for me as I go along with my storm elec, even 2 slotted (1 hold duration 1 acc) you can keep most things in almost perma lockdown. That and it's a handy group support skill to keep the mezzers or hard targets off your teammates. Heck it even locks down a malta herc titan how fun is that?

Might be my style and power choice that makes it more worth using, but I wouldn't discount it right off the bat.

Posted 12-08-2004 07:13 AM

I haven't actually taken it, but Tesla Cage should be really useful for taking down some of the more annoying mobs.

Being able to hold a PP so it doesn't get MoG, or a Sapper, or DE mushrooms... pretty useful.

In the type of build that Quason is going with though, I just don't think there's room for it at the levels it'd be most useful.

Posted 12-08-2004 07:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Siphon Speed: Not recommended. I just don't get any use out of this power.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently Slowing down bosses isn't an advantage
Hmmmm Apparently have a travel power at lvl 6 isn't an advantage either!
Hmmmm Apparently not get the Accuracy Penalty associated with Super Speed isn't an advantage either!

Posted 12-08-2004 07:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently Slowing down bosses isn't an advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in melee range, they're mostly going to be staying put and docile anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently have a travel power at lvl 6 isn't an advantage either!

[/ QUOTE ]

Concidering it only takes a few hours to get from lvl 6 to 14 if you know what you're doing, no. It's not.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently not get the Accuracy Penalty associated with Super Speed isn't an advantage either!

[/ QUOTE ]

SS doesn't have an acc penalty.

Seriously, If you have a comment, by all means state it, but this kind of hostile post really doesn't further the conversation at all.

Posted 12-08-2004 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently Slowing down bosses isn't an advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in melee range, they're mostly going to be staying put and docile anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently have a travel power at lvl 6 isn't an advantage either!

[/ QUOTE ]

Concidering it only takes a few hours to get from lvl 6 to 14 if you know what you're doing, no. It's not.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm Apparently not get the Accuracy Penalty associated with Super Speed isn't an advantage either!

[/ QUOTE ]

SS doesn't have an acc penalty.

Seriously, If you have a comment, by all means state it, but this kind of hostile post really doesn't further the conversation at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
A docile Boss, never met one of those before
and 8 lvls in a few hours, sure, not saying it can't be done.
Just for those 8 lvls I'll be there before you
NO POWER IS USELESS WAS MY ONLY POINT
its just your prefence and mine

Posted 12-08-2004 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A docile Boss, never met one of those before

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never seen me fight a boss.

Posted 12-08-2004 07:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm Apparently Slowing down bosses isn't an advantage
Hmmmm Apparently have a travel power at lvl 6 isn't an advantage either!
Hmmmm Apparently not get the Accuracy Penalty associated with Super Speed isn't an advantage either!

[/ QUOTE ]

sophy, Siphon Speed is the one power many of us kinetics tend to respec out. Most of us get Hasten and if you've already got hasten then Super Speed is a no brainer. Also, there is no -ACC to Super Speed. The slow effect on a boss or LT is somewhat useful, but there's no room in this type of build for 'somewhat useful'

Great work Quason!

Posted 12-08-2004 08:01 AM

Slotted right, Kin/Elec means the bosses don't fight back. At all. They just stand there waiting to be arrested. That's about as docile as you get without actually holding them.

Siphon Speed is only really useful if you're REALLY impatient at low levels and just HAVE to have a travel power.
OR
Slowing down AVs that have really dangerous AE attacks. If they move too much then the people standing semi-close by (FF, storm, dark, pet controller, whatever) will get hit and possibly owned. By the time you're fighting AVs most people are smart enough to control their agro though (and if they're not then it's natural selection).

Outside of that I don't think it's good for anything. The ToHit check and lack of +stealth makes it inferior to SuperSpeed as a travel power, and its single target nature makes it inferior to just about any other slow effect.

I had it from 6-24, but after I had SuperSpeed a while it got removed from the quickbar.

Posted 12-08-2004 08:06 AM

Nice guide Quason! I'm still around, incidentally, just spending some time in scrapper land. Kheldians don't interest me very much though, so once I either get bored or hit level 50 I'm sure I'll be back to leveling my meleefender. Plus, I have some other off-the wall defender builds to try out soon. Keep an eye out for my rad-rad tank at some point in the future

Posted 12-08-2004 08:24 AM

Well, first, a suggestion - Tesla Cage may not be as useless as you think - when you target a boss, before you thump him with Total Focus (I LOVE that power!!), lock them down with Tesla Cage. Thus, no more following them around which allows you to remain stationary and keep mobs around you (which sounds to be an important part of your build). If fighting ranged foes and the boss wanders too far away, the mobs might stay put shooting you from range while you auto-follow the boss. Tesla Cage allows you to not worry about that. If you have the spare power slot, might be worth considering.

Also, I'm pretty sure you've read my guide for my build and know my fighting style. I would actually love to see you in action just to compare it to my own experiences. My build can solo (and can solo some pretty damn big things too...) but really excels in a team setting (and I honestly don't know if "excels" sufficiently states it, to be brutally honest...) while I can see how your build really excels in a solo environment. I would love to see how different the dynamics of our two builds are - yours appears to be defense through end drain (primarily) while mine is defense through offense. Not to imply you aren't applying a hefty dose of offense, but I suspect you know what I mean.

I do find it interesting that you state that speed is an important part of the build yet you have so few recharge reductions slotted. Given that fulcrum shift is such a key element of your attacks, I would think you'd pull some damage SOs from your attacks (which will hit the cap via FS) and switching them to recharge reductions. Especially with the new FS coming which allows you to hit the cap easier. Your bread and butter attacks especially could probably lose one or two damage and be replaced with recharge and you probably wouldn't see any change in damage/shot but would see a major increase in damage/second.

Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!

Posted 12-08-2004 08:25 AM

Leaving aside the siphon speed conversation...

My only question is - how the heck did you 6 slot PBU, TI, TF *and* 4-slot Conserve Power?

The best I've been able to do is 6 Conserve Power at 41 (no stam in my build), 6 slot TI at 44, and with Total Focus at 47 and PBU at 50... (maybe PBU and CP flipped, I'll see).

... 3 slots at 48 (Total Focus, obviously), 3 slots at 50... enough to 4-slot both, or 6-slot one and 2-slot the other.

???

Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.

Posted 12-08-2004 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would think you'd pull some damage SOs from your attacks (which will hit the cap via FS) and switching them to recharge reductions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an EXCELLENT point, I hadn't concidered that. I'd really like to get the numbers on exactly how much FS has been improved before I make any changes to my plans tho, and I don't want to start datamining this stuff till all the changes going into I3 are set in stone. Things still seem to be in a state of flux atm.

[ QUOTE ]
If fighting ranged foes and the boss wanders too far away, the mobs might stay put shooting you from range while you auto-follow the boss. Tesla Cage allows you to not worry about that. If you have the spare power slot, might be worth considering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things tho... first, I can exercise a bit of judgement when I fight. If the boss is wandering off too far, I'll just break off pursuit, nail him with a transference to make sure he's drained, then forget about him and go back to the rest of the mobs. I'm not gonna chase the ******* halfway across the zone. Second, I honestly just don't have any room for another power in the build. Every single power I've taken is useful to me in some significant way. Even unslotted, I couldn't afford to take it.

I don't doubt Tesla Cage's usefulness. I've seen it used in some very creative and effective ways. I personally just don't have a use for it that superceedes the use of any other power in my build.

[ QUOTE ]
I would actually love to see you in action just to compare it to my own experiences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. I'll be hitting test later tonight, around 10PM eastern time if you care to hook up for a bit. Same goes for anyone else reading this thread who'd like to take a look at the build and what it can do. I'll be on Captain Voltaic (no numbers, i'll delete the Captain Voltaic I already have and recopy).

Posted 12-08-2004 08:35 AM

41 - PBU
42 - 3 slots in PBU
43 - 2 slots in PBU, 1 in whatever
44 - TI
45 - 3 slots in TI
46 - 2 slots in TI, 1 in whatever
47 - TF
48 - 3 slots in TF
49 - CP
50 - 2 slots in TF, 1 in CP.

*****, you're right. My bad. Okay then, make that 2 slots in CP and thanks to J_B for pointing out the mistake.

Doesn't affect the build at all, but I've got a bit of egg on my face here. Sorry about the screw up. The epics aren't in hero planner yet so I had to do the last few levels by hand. Edited the OP to reflect how it should actually end up, to save a little face.

Posted 12-08-2004 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would think you'd pull some damage SOs from your attacks (which will hit the cap via FS) and switching them to recharge reductions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an EXCELLENT point, I hadn't concidered that. I'd really like to get the numbers on exactly how much FS has been improved before I make any changes to my plans tho, and I don't want to start datamining this stuff till all the changes going into I3 are set in stone. Things still seem to be in a state of flux atm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall the new "per enemy" buff - I have +30% stuck in my head but I don't think that's right... The caster centered buff, however, has been increased to +50%. In the end, however, it's more than enough (even the live version is) to smash you into the cap with ease, assuming a moderately sized group (4+ should do it). Hell, with one target and a long fight, I'm able to hit the damage cap with all my attacks and spamming fulcrum shift and siphon power so I know FS with a large group (which your build seems designed to tackle) will get you there. Three or four damage SOs plus fulcrum shift will be plenty in virtually every instance and your increased attack rate will compensate for any hint of a reduction in damage/per attack you might suffer. Also, I know with my attacks, being able to attack more often allowed me to apply my secondary effect (knockback and sleep) more often which is a good thing. Given that end drain is 1) your sercondary effect and 2) a vital component of your build, that's a good thing - you can completely LOCK foes at zero end (one of the resons I've said I'd probably try /elec if I ever played a kinetics defender again...).

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I honestly just don't have any room for another power in the build. Every single power I've taken is useful to me in some significant way. Even unslotted, I couldn't afford to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that feeling. You know I love Repel (it has been an incredibly useful power for me in a number of instances) but, once the epic powers come, I have to dump it. It kills me to do so because Repel is so incredibly helpful, but the new epic powers are _more_ helpful and thus...

[ QUOTE ]
Ditto. I'll be hitting test later tonight, around 10PM eastern time if you care to hook up for a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try to pop on then. I think the build I'm currently working with is Syphon Strike2, but I could be mistaken... Regardless, if I am able to get on, I'll certainly look you up.

Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!

Posted 12-08-2004 08:44 AM

Huh... now that would be interesting, Quason.

You might just get a tell from Kinetic Barbie(something)... I'm still testing to see what I really want to do.

One reason I spotted your error, Quason - I've been going over and over possible builds for my toon... I've been subbing in the Presence pool for the Epics. Since Lil Pips is apparently out of the game... someone else would have to step up and add the epics, and that won't happen 'til Update 3 hits in any case.

Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.

Posted 12-08-2004 08:49 AM

When planning for epic powers, I generally just drop powers in the post-41 slots that I know I'll never actually take (the spare from Fitness, flurry, jump kick, etc) and slot those with empty slots as a placeholder.

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, one of my now long-deleted posts actually came up with a build that managed to run a ridiculous amount of toggles without going into the red in terms of endurance regenerated per second by slotting about 4 end redux enhancements total in the right powers. Check out the Toggle Costs Calculator and see if you can come up with something at least end-neutral. You're relying on Transference very heavily for end regen then, but you could also drop fitness and save yourself 3 power choices and 5 slots. I don't think the epic powers are added to the listings yet, but odds are TI will be a reasonable placeholder. If you want to go pessimistic, use Integration or something.

Edit: Crunched the numbers...with the toggle layout you have now, you're above water on end regen without changing a single slot, even without stamina. Assuming you have at least the Atlas Medallion, you could actually run maneuvers and tactics with this layout and, by using 2 slots in each for end redux, an extra slot in super speed, and changing one defbuff in stealth to end redux, you would be on the good side of the waterline again. This would allow you to remove accuracy enhancements from key powers, freeing you to move those slots elsewhere or slot for recharge without losing any effectiveness. Like I said, you're BARELY above natural endurance regen, but with transference to top you off you can make it. Adding the Portal Jockey Accolade to the mix only makes it sweeter..you can remove the extra slot from super speed and remain positive.

Posted 12-08-2004 08:57 AM

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Incidentally, if I remember correctly, one of my now long-deleted posts actually came up with a build that managed to run a ridiculous amount of toggles without going into the red in terms of endurance regenerated per second by slotting about 4 end redux enhancements total in the right powers.

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That'd be an interesting alternate build. I wonder what you'd do with the spare pool, powers, and slots then. I think I'd probably get the fighting pool back, take boxing, tough, and weave, and dump the 5 slots in Weave.

I imagine, tho, that you're putting those end reducers in Stealth, TI, and Weave in that case. I'm thinking that the decreased def and resistance in that case (by replacing def/res enhs with end redux) would negate a good bit of the added protection of taking weave in the first place. It'd be a tough thing to balance from a min/max standpoint.

Posted 12-08-2004 08:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, if I remember correctly, one of my now long-deleted posts actually came up with a build that managed to run a ridiculous amount of toggles without going into the red in terms of endurance regenerated per second by slotting about 4 end redux enhancements total in the right powers. Check out the Toggle Costs Calculator and see if you can come up with something at least end-neutral. You're relying on Transference very heavily for end regen then, but you could also drop fitness and save yourself 3 power choices and 5 slots. I don't think the epic powers are added to the listings yet, but odds are TI will be a reasonable placeholder. If you want to go pessimistic, use Integration or something.

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There's a problem with that. Once you develop a play style that relies on Stamina, it's REALLY hard to totally shift gears and switch to a play style that instead relies on transference (you can go the other way easily, but this direction is REALLY hard).

I tried making a build that relied on transference and Conserve Power and dumped Stamina entirely. I felt like a fish out of water. For those that are able to do it, kudos, but I just don't understand how you can... I invest very little thought into end management (I do, of course, since I still drain end...) but with that build, it was a constant thought. For my build, end concerns should be low down on your list of things you are thinking about. It would require a drastic shift in how I play and would probably require entirely different power selections, different slotting (adding an end reduc in numerous powers) and result in a character totally different from what I currently play.

Like I said, going from a non-stamina build to a stamina build is probably dead easy. Going the other way is _REALLY_ hard and results in some pretty drastic shifts in playstyle.

Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!

Posted 12-08-2004 09:03 AM

Check my edit to the post above...if you can scrape up a few slots, you could end up ahead in the def/resistance game.

Posted 12-08-2004 09:15 AM

Checked the min/max perspective on it, Quason...by sacrificing a slot in Stealth to end reduction, you lose 1.5% defense from the SO (assuming even level, slightly more if it's green). By adding maneuvers to the mix (which is doable given 2 slots in the power for end reduction), you gain a minimum of 6.25% (I'm still not sure if defenders get 7.8% or not so I'm being conservative) which is further enhanceable with more slots. Also, by taking tactics and six-slotting it (1 endredux, 5 tohit buffs), assuming you have both the Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey accolades, you have a +33.25% to accuracy with even-level SOs, which would free up many slots throughout the build for recharge reduction or slot redirection. This has the potential to ramp your DPS up by a great deal.

Caveats: This build will be on the knife edge of end regeneration. Keeping enhancements at +3 is crucial. Since you are level 50 that is a little less difficult than it would be for others, but leveling mid-battle could pose a problem for others following in your footsteps due to the loss of efficacy in enhancements.

Posted 12-08-2004 09:26 AM

A question Syphon - are your defenses such that you rarely get hit now, and thus don't have to heal yourself much?

Or do you still tend to get hit quite a bit, necessitating a lot of use of Transfusion?

I found that, especially pre-respec when I had NO DEFENSES, that Transfusion was my defense. Pretty much my only one. Other than the -acc from my dark attacks, which, of course, I didn't really have anything to compare to.

So I learned to manage my green bar like a hawk.

Once I had Transference, and particularly with permahasten, I simply did the exact same thing with my blue bar.

It took practice, that's for sure. And slotting end reducers in some of my attacks. But y'know... making an attack go from 19 to, what, 14 or so end? That's not a bad tradeoff.

And slotting end reducers in ALL toggles I used.

Sure, it means I have to use Transference pretty much every time it's up, but I would usually do that anyway - as with even one end drain, I can drain an even or +1 mob dry as it is.

I simple run up to a likely mob, Transference, and go on my merry way.. same as I would for green.

All it takes is practice... and I wouldn't necessarily expect an hour or two on the test server would be enough practice.

Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.

Posted 12-08-2004 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Checked the min/max perspective on it, Quason...by sacrificing a slot in Stealth to end reduction, you lose 1.5% defense from the SO (assuming even level, slightly more if it's green). By adding maneuvers to the mix (which is doable given 2 slots in the power for end reduction), you gain a minimum of 6.25% (I'm still not sure if defenders get 7.8% or not so I'm being conservative) which is further enhanceable with more slots. Also, by taking tactics and six-slotting it (1 endredux, 5 tohit buffs), assuming you have both the Atlas Medallion and Portal Jockey accolades, you have a +33.25% to accuracy with even-level SOs, which would free up many slots throughout the build for recharge reduction or slot redirection. This has the potential to ramp your DPS up by a great deal.

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I must confess, I think Tactics is an absolute must have for kinetics since it has so many to-hit powers and thus allows you to not have to slot everythiing with an ACC enh (check Quason's build for how many he has... Tactics would allow him to pull one from every power...). I didn't bring it up because he made it pretty clear he hates the leadership powers, but I think Tactics is just that damn valuable. Sure, it takes five slots to make it equal to one SO. But I count six ACC SO's in his build (might have missed one) so you come out ahead with Tactics...

But, as with all things, it's a matter of personal choice.

Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!