Idea to allow players of all levels PVP together
By
abraxas,
Posted on: 2004-12-07 19:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
exactly tyroie that's all they need to do
i agree a level 50 should totally lay the smack down on a level 20 one on one. but the level 20 should at least have a chance of hitting the level 50 - don't artificially eliminate a lower levels chance of hitting by using in game controls to modify accuracy/damage vs higher levels. and on the reverse, dont let high levels automatically get accuracy/damage bonuses vs lower levels.
high levels will still be the better pvp'ers since they hav emore powers/damage/hp, but it wont be the case where a level 20 or 30 has no chance of hitting (and shouldn't even bother)
Yeah, you got it, that's the idea exactly. 
Make level not matter in PvP
That's the old thread that was up maybe a few weeks ago. My favorite ideas on it were to either a.) make the pvp system work like the new monster system, where a lvl 40 hits a lvl 30 as if the 40 were 30 or, the best in my opinion, b.) make a level 40 hit a level 30 as if the level 30 were level 40, and a 30 hit a level 40 as if the 40 were level 30.
The difference between the two is this: (now switching to the more rhetorical, extreme situation of a lvl 50 vs. a lvl 2, in which we almost all agree that the lvl 2 should not have an equal chance of winning)
in option a.), the level 50 energy blaster shoots his energy blast at the level 2 energy blaster. the level 2 takes 20 damage, and fires his energy blast off in return, dealing 500 damage to the level 50. Because of the number of hitpoints they each have, this scales to about the same percentage of their hp (not accounting for damage enhancements, epic pool powers, or any inspirations or other random defense/offense booster.)
In example b.) the level 50 shoots his energy blast at the level 2 and probably does somewhere around 350 damage. Yes, I realize this is a one-shot, but the real point is this: The level 2 shoots his energy blast at the level 50, and has the same chance to hit as if he were attacking a mob his level (75% base), and will do damage. Real damage. not .000001, like you would now with that level difference, but say 15 energy and 8 smashing.
Now, in a level 50 vs. a level 2 battle, there is still going to be no contest. Even in a level 50 vs. 25 level 2s, there would not be much challenge due to AoEs, greater number of powers, enhancements, inspirations, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.
However, 2 level 20s now pose a significant threat to a level 25/26, whereas they would otherwise not be able to land an attack on him. So it keeps level in the equation, but doesn't prevent anybody from being able to effectively attack another player. This system would scale combats to allow massive numbers of players of disparate levels to engage in combat and for nobody to feel useless -- merely overpowered in a one on one fight.
Anyway, that's my favorite, but it doesn't have to be yours 
. The thread's there for the reading/resurrection, if you want.
Sorry for the repetition -- while I was writing all that long crap, you said it in about a third the space and more effectively
This is a bad idea. A level 2 being on the same terms as a level 50 for basic damage? Bad idea. Why the hell bother with leveling a character if some level one can get lucky and kill you?
I have to agree. I dont like it either. A level 2 should know they have NO chance against a level 50. A level 50 would be MORE then skilled enough to avoid ANY attack from a level 2 - whether its one level 2 or 20 level 2's.
Now, I agree to a SMALL range, in that "dealing damage" suggestion. Such as... perhaps a 6 level range. If your within 6 levels you HAVE a chance - the more levels you are away from the person you are up against. The harder it is.
I have no Doubt in my mind that if I went and tried to fight against someone with a blackbelt, they'd be able to block every move I made. Its that simple. The idea that even a level 20 could do damage to a level 32 is also a bit 'out there'. They should have a very small chance of doing any damage at all. But, its not exactly a completely bad Idea. I just think that a "Range" should be put in... 6 levels would be good. The Further away in levels the less chance you have to hit them (unless your above them in level and then still normal PvM accuracy should apply but no more then lets say 85% chance of hitting them no matter what level above them you are).
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Hey! I looked through the previous posts but I couldn't find this. If this idea has already been brought up, I do apologize.
What if, in PVP, the calculation bonuses for being higher level than someone else (or penalties for being lower level, similarly) was either entirely eliminated or severely reduced?
The only real advantages you'd have for being higher level in PVP would be your naturally higher maximum health, number of powers, number of enhancement slots and quality of those enhancements. I feel those aspects alone make a higher level player well enough invulnerable to a lower level in a duel, but the lower level player would still be able to contribute a great deal to battles, as they wouldn't just be constantly missing someone a mere 5 levels above them. Side kicking in PVP would still benefit you in the form of more health.
This idea is in part coming from the idea of the sidekick system, and the fact that levels really are relative. I think this would be fun, as otherwise spread-level battles would feel skill-less and unfair, unfun for both parties, just like previous games such as DAoC where you had to hit cap level just to even consider entering PVP.
What do you think?
~Tyroie
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They can go one better than this, If they use the current "monster Code" that is now on the test server, hit points difference won't matter either. Currently on test server if a 20th level monster attack a 10th level hero his attacks are scale down to 10th level for damage and to-hit bonus and when the 10th level player attacks the 20th level monster his damage and to-hit bonus scales up to 20th level, so increase hit points are a wash. 20th level have more hit points than 10 level but now they take more damage from 10th levels attacks and 10 levels have less hit point than 20th level but now 10 level takes less damage from 20th levels attacks, Hit points difference because of level is a wash. If we add to this a code that lowers or raises the enhancements effectiveness by the level of player your attacking, IE if your attack someone less than 12th your enhancements effects are training if > 11th but < 22nd the effects are DO's and if > 21 the effects are SO then you have a perfectly level playing field with Higher level toons only having a slight advantage because of haveing more powers to choose from and having more slots in those powers, beside high level players should be more experience and therefore better players anyway.
This is how I would like to see PvP balance, and still keep it consensual also.
if you make level artificially alter damage (as you guys seem to want) you all need to realize that you will pretty much have to be level 50 before you can consider pvping.. not sure if you guys have that through your head - is that what you really want?
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This is a bad idea. A level 2 being on the same terms as a level 50 for basic damage? Bad idea. Why the hell bother with leveling a character if some level one can get lucky and kill you?
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In a system like the monster system, the level 2 would have no chance against the level 50. The level 50 properly build would have slotted out attacks pumped by Hasten and slotted out defenses. The level 2 would have an attack chain of two basic and unslotted attacks.
If you can't take an even con level 2 with that much difference in power selection and slotting then you deserve what you get.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
This would be about the worst pvp in the history of gaming, if we followed your suggestions.
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This would be about the worst pvp in the history of gaming, if we followed your suggestions.
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lol. wow, yes, we need to follow what this guy said. sure it was unqualified hot air but we need to follow it, right? moron
by the way, shadowbane follows this model. and that game is built for pvp
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if you make level artificially alter damage (as you guys seem to want) you all need to realize that you will pretty much have to be level 50 before you can consider pvping.. not sure if you guys have that through your head - is that what you really want?
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You sir, are obviously a goober if you think automatically scaling a 50th level toons damage down to 2nd level and automatically scaling up a 2nd level toons damage to 50th level makes it easier for the 50th level toon than the way its done now...
If your comment was serious then you are a serious loon...
we aren't saying to have damage scale so that a level 2 hit's a level 50 as though the level 2 were level 50. we're saying remove the artificial accuracy and damage bonuses that make a level 50 hit a level 2 for many times more than the 'real' damage their power does.
i have a class to recommend for you 'sir': anything involving reading comprehension 
Hang on just a second! To doors, and anyone else who reacted negatively to my post, please reread it. Carefully.
NOWHERE in there did I say let the level 50's level equal the level 2. NOWHERE in there did I say the level 2 should do 500 damage to the level 50 with his power blast.
Look at what I said. The level 2 merely has no accuracy/damage penalty. He still does the same damage he would do to even con LEVEL 2 mobs. So he does 20 damage. Even at 20th level as a blaster or controller, the weakest ATs, 20 damage is next to nothing...
Please, take time to read posts before you decry them as worthless. I am against the "use the monster system" method, and that is not at all what I was proposing.
The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.
PvP needs to be fun and something that doesn't get abusive. However, that doesn't mean a 1 on 1 fight has to be fair. If I decide to pick fistfight with a grizzly bear, well, I expect to lose. You can even give me a knife and I'll still expect to lose. That's just common sense. A level 10 should know that picking a fight with a level 40 is suicide. It should be common sense. At the same time the system needs checks and balances so the level 40 isn't deliberately hunting level 10's just so he can gank them.
There ARE things that can be done -- both to reduce ganking (I'm not promising it will ever completely go away) and allow a broader level range in PvP combat. Lower levels should have a chance to attack and defend themselves, even if it is hard. As we implement them we're going to test them internally and the ideas that survive that test will then move on to various stages of beta testing.
So at this point I won't say just what our plans are (because I like to test things first), but I just figured I'd shake the web here.
Lord Recluse
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NOWHERE in there did I say let the level 50's level equal the level 2. NOWHERE in there did I say the level 2 should do 500 damage to the level 50 with his power blast.
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That is true you did not, I did. I suggested that we use the same code for PvP as they are currently using on the test server for random "monster" appearing in zones. This code is being implemented to the test server to encourage hero's of all levels to fight random "monsters" together when they appear in zones, like the new Giant Octopus "monster" that is now appearing in Talos and IP.
I think it is working great and could be use in all PvP encounters to level the playing feild.
What usually kills PvP is greifing and lack of players. The new "monster code" as its been referred to would help solve both of these issues.
First it would discourage High level greifers from ganking low level players, and since all level toons could PvP with a semi level playing field you would have more players willing to try PvP. I think this could alone would double the number of players who would participate, add this to the fact that now every level could challenge every level and you just have more opportunity to engage in PvP.
High level toons would still have a big advantage, IE more powers to choose from and more slots in each power, but they could not one shot anyone and would have a chance, however slight, of being beating by a low level toon using the right tactics or just plain dumb luck.
Why would anyone (who is not a greifer) be against a level playing field for PvP regardless of level? I here everyone who is for PvP saying their reason are for more content and a better challenge and that is what I'm suggesting will provide. Even an Ubor 50th level player will be challenge in any PvP contest and will be able to play against all level toons giving him more opportunity to engage in PvP. The higher the level the toon the more they should want this because the player base becomes so small at the top that other wise they would have no one to Play against...
o.O
Whoa... 298 words...
*keels over in surprise*
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point?
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The level 40 player still has an enormous advantage over the level 10 simply by having more powers, slots and access to SO enhancement. Even if the damage was scaled, the lv40 would kick the lv10s posterior big time.
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The level 40 player still has an enormous advantage over the level 10 simply by having more powers, slots and access to SO enhancement. Even if the damage was scaled, the lv40 would kick the lv10s posterior big time.
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Not entirely true. Lets say two level 4s decide to fight a level 40, well lets say they are A gravity contorller, and a lightning blaster.
THe controller manages to get gravity distortion off. Now sense he has been scaled up, that level 40 is hating life, becuase lets say he didnt have any of those special inspirations to break holds.
Now the controlle rhad some acc insp and is now popping them and putting hold after hold on the level 40 so he can NEVER move, while the other level 4, a blaster, just shoots and shoots.
((Note:Some might say they might nerf controllers, well I don't think this is true, sense controller already have no damage potential, hold are all we got in PvP, and taking that away is WRONG, now im for just reducing the time the holds last though!))
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.
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I know your a Dev and I really appreciate when ever a Dev comments on the boards but If you believe your own words above then you don't have a clue about PvP in RPG's!
Lets just try and relate what you said above to the current PvE we have now. What does a 10th level hero do when he sees a 40th level mob? Runs like Heck. What will that 10th level hero do if that 40th level mob then chases him down and kills him over and over and over again. That's right, Lord Recluse he quits the game forever...
Ok, Ok, you have made PvP consensual only so that will never happen right? So lets look at the other side of the coin everyone knows that level make a huge difference in all RPG (if they don't they will two minutes after PvP goes live) so everyone make sure they never consent to PvP with anyone who is higher level to them so basically they will only fight toons their own level. Now the 10 level toon has many many opportunities every log to find someone 10th level to PvP with so he is therefore rewarded for being lower level, However the 40th level toon will find it hard to find other 40th level toons to PvP and in just a few days or weeks at most will find its is always the same players who will PvP with and So he gets bored and leaves the game forever...
And your last comment is what make me think your clueless. Do you really think that 40th level toons beating 10th level toons easily is a reward for playing an RPG?
You have actually made me mad, which is not an easy thing to do.
Congratulations
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing.
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I think the "equal con" idea is excellent. With all due respect, I disagree with your assumption that an equal "conning" (ala the new "monster code") would put that level 10 on the same level as that level 40.
Consider the number of powers, the range of power function, and the number of enhancements available to that level 40 character compared to that of the level 10. The level 40 has a travel power for quick getaway if in trouble, could have the full fitness pool, has potentially over three times the inspirations (of most likely a more powerful order), and has power after power that they could lay upon their level 10 foe. Meanwhile that foolhardy level 10 foe has at most 8 barely-slotted powers (including brawl) with training enhancements (unless there is a way to get DO's or SO's at ten) they can target at their opponent and is at the mercy of recharge time. I'd say that level 40, even with an equal con, has all the advantage in the world.
And the way the PvE game scales, for most archetypes, if we drift two or three levels from another player, the battle will be decided before it begins. This is fine for a progressive PvE game. But I'd like to see PvP be fun with longstanding grudge matches and rumbles between myself and my playmates, regardless of how much PvE time we've put in to any particular character. You guys are providing tons of great PvE content, but the best PvP content is going to come in the form of a player controlled archnemesis complete with hammy RP. This relationship can't be maintained if my nemesis gets online three more times a week then I do for a couple weeks and gets two levels on me.
Short of it: For me, predetermined PvP (ala SWG) = no fun. I'd love to see three level 10's with their combined tactics give a level 40 a run for their influence. I'd be thrilled to be on either side of that card game.
How about a special underdog buff? If a player chooses to challenge another player that is more than 5 levels below him, then that player gets a special underdog buff that would at least boost his accuracy enough to hit with attacks, debuffs, etc. ( IF he chooses to fight in the first place)This could be used just for one on one engagements. Just another idea in the endless pile I guess.
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Lets say two level 4s decide to fight a level 40, well lets say they are A gravity contorller, and a lightning blaster.
THe controller manages to get gravity distortion off. Now sense he has been scaled up, that level 40 is hating life, becuase lets say he didnt have any of those special inspirations to break holds.
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It could happen, but I bet that level 40, with 20 inspiration slots has a break-hold inspiration just in case, unless he or she just got off a task force and was plum out. If that is the case, why would the player agree to a consentual PvP match? Only two scenarios I can think of: it was either a friendly match between players that knew eachother, or a brazen "I'll beat you with one paw tied behind my back" approach on the part of the level 40.
Also, as an aside to this scenario, what's to stop a fellow villian or hero from running by and helping that level 40 clear his mind?
Well, I agree that there should be an obvious advantage to the higher level player, and I suggested a solution for this on a different thread. (Which can be found Here )
Basically I suggested that PvP work in a similar way to sidekicking, with slightly more of a gap between the players.
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Not a bad idea, but it seems to even the odds a little to much. I mean, if a hero has worked their butt off to get to level 50, to be the true defender of Paragon City, only to find themselves reduced to a level 5 player when attacking a villian, it sort of defeats the purpose to being a higher level. There might be some way to make it work like the sidekicking - for example, when a level 50 hero attacks a level 10 villian, the villian's attacks would behave similarly to how they would if they were SKed by a level 50 villian, although there should probably be more than a three level gap between them. This way, the higher level player isn't brought down, and the lower level player is not completely out of luck the minute they are attacked (this also might be likened to how in sports, for one, if you are playing a harder opponent, you can find yourself playing better).
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Hey! I looked through the previous posts but I couldn't find this. If this idea has already been brought up, I do apologize.
What if, in PVP, the calculation bonuses for being higher level than someone else (or penalties for being lower level, similarly) was either entirely eliminated or severely reduced?
The only real advantages you'd have for being higher level in PVP would be your naturally higher maximum health, number of powers, number of enhancement slots and quality of those enhancements. I feel those aspects alone make a higher level player well enough invulnerable to a lower level in a duel, but the lower level player would still be able to contribute a great deal to battles, as they wouldn't just be constantly missing someone a mere 5 levels above them. Sidekicking in PVP would still benifit you in the form of more health.
This idea is in part coming from the idea of the sidekick system, and the fact that levels really are relative. I think this would be fun, as otherwise spread-level battles would feel skill-less and unfair, unfun for both parties, just like previous games such as DAoC where you had to hit cap level just to even consider entering PVP.
What do you think?
~Tyroie