Announcing Our European Community Coordinator
By
2wierd,
Posted on: 2004-11-12 11:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Ask a non-English speaking European who'd like to play CoH if they should play on European servers or American servers.
Hmm, let's think. If they have customer support issues... who do they talk to? An American GM based in NCsoft's US offices? Or a European GM based here?
While of course NCsoft could hire multilingual GMs for the US, why even bother? It'd be easier to recruit people in Europe. Don't get me started on the difference in timezones.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing whatsoever stops a european based customer service group responding to queries on both US and EU servers, this would have the added benefit of providing better coverage for US and EU players out of their respective primetimes.
Are you avoiding my question as to why this decision was taken in the first place? 
Frankie says it best.
[ QUOTE ]
Are you avoiding my question as to why this decision was taken in the first place?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because the european distributor and publisher was much happier with the idea that his boxes-on-shelves were all for unique servers.
Also, if the hosting is done through a separate company (even a wholly owned subsidiary) it makes accounting for support and hosting costs easier to manage.
At least that's my guess. 
It goes without saying that segregation has no benefits whatsoever for the consumer.
Bridger
wrote: [ QUOTE ]
Can North Americanos play on the Euro Servers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not with the US version of the game, no. I guess they could import a European copy and sign up for a Euro account if they really want.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are a aware that a large group of europeans (and other parts of the world) has already bought the game from the website and are currently playing on US servers? They are then unable to play on the european servers as well?
It would seem like extreem greed to force people to buy it again. Especially since the game itself is useless if you don't play it online!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the need to segregate us? I mean, c'mon, we can get along, right people?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not about segregating, it's about community and practical concerns.
[/ QUOTE ]
One of the concerns is, that its bad enough as it is having to get upper level support (who are just full of "update your drivers" and "defrag your disc") to finally get to someone who can do something - if one has to get through even more departments that's hardly something to look forward to.
We are one planet, we should have one forum (though arguably a faster web server).
Can we still log in here with suggestions to the developers or do we have to do that before we get locked out?
[ QUOTE ]
Covnam asked:
[ QUOTE ]
What about Dev responses? Will we have to check each board's dev digestt? Or will there be a single one that links to all boards? Or will the devs simply only post in one forum?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good question, and one of the many things that we're currently considering - particularly given that not all the Cryptic team are fluent in written French and German. We have some ideas that we're looking at, but I'd be interested in anyone else's opinions or suggestions...
B
[/ QUOTE ]
How about just letting the Devs respond where necessary, and having a moderator make sure to copy the response to their boards in a new topic if that wasn't the forum it originated in?
If a moderator is fluent in English and French/German they can also translate it when they repost it if it didn't originate on either of those boards.
As for how a dev could respond on the other boards when they don't speak the language... you got me :/
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(by Chuey)I STILL believe the whole Euro server idea is a bad bad bad horribly awful bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
(all further quoted text by Sophie)
There is actually a strong case for European servers when you look at it from a purely techincal perspective: ping times. Transatlantic ping times can be fairly high at peak hours and if the rest of your gaming system (both PC hardware and internet connection) is top notch it can be frustrating to see the game being 'choppy' due to transatlantic network performance, and it can affect gameplay. A geographically closer server helps to combat this problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure my ping to the US servers right now could be astronomically high. However, it hardly matters. CoH is not a twitch-based game like a firstperson shooter. Ping matters very little, as long as you're not delayed three seconds. The animation times actually help, I think, because you can line up your next attack at the start of an animation and by the time the animation is done, your laggy command will have made it to the server and back.
Even PvP in CoV will not be that ping-intensive. For MMORPGs, pings are pretty much a non issue.
And I haven't even mentioned the ever increasing bandwiths on broadband internet yet :P
[ QUOTE ]
The other main benefits seem to be:
1. Language localisation. However, this could just as easily be done on a 'global' server. Plenty of French speakers in Canada, guys...
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian servers will not be part of the starting serverset while THOSE countries have the lowest amount of English speakers.
I'm also still firmly convinced that internet users and gamers of any nationality have a basic grasp of the English language. People who only speak their native language and still hang out online, in MMORPGs specifically, have got to be a tiny minority.
[ QUOTE ]
2. Better support for the physical servers during the European peak playing times, since the support staff will be working European hours.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.
However, you could also just hire some graveyard shift service reps. Advantage: no costs for overseas offices or personnel or anything.
[ QUOTE ]
3. Server events in peak European hours.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed and again, hire someone for late night work 
[ QUOTE ]
4. Possible minor gameplay differences that would require a different version of server code ("we have some ideas for 'goodies' similar to those in the US DVD Edition." - Bridger).
[/ QUOTE ]
Minor or not - I don't think it's that good an idea to run a different game in Germany than in France or the US. Is this about the US flag in Atlas Park?
If you're going to allow different powers, however weak or whimsical, on different servers, you might as well go ahead and open the gates of Hell directly. There's no telling how much jealous whining we players will begin
[ QUOTE ]
So it's not like the whole idea is bad. I think the real question everybody is asking is, do the benefits really outweigh the disadvantages? Obviously Cryptic thinks "yes", or we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it is also obvious that some players disagree.
[/ QUOTE ]
Advantages vs disadvantages.
I don't know the financial situation of running a US based server for Euro customers. I know it's very hard for a US company to run a prize contest that includes Euro contestants because of different national rules and the European Union being a mess of regulations (or words to that effect that I've picked up on other boards). Perhaps it really is cheaper for Cryptic to set up a whole new company overseas, I just don't know.
The only tangible advantages to PLAYERS, however, are timezone related. And those advantage - service and events, could be covered by timezone-friendly employees in the same office. Why isn't that cheaper than a whole new company in Europe?
Speaking of timezones - how many of us play CoH at weird hours sometimes? How many of us have had an awful time finding teammates at those hours?
Not separating your global playerbase means that your players will have an easier time finding teammates when they're playing into the wee hours of the morning. Player segragation by country or timezone means your players will be lonely at off hours.
[ QUOTE ]
Segregation is a word being thrown around a lot. Let's not forget that right now the entire player base is 'segregated' across 11 different servers, with no way to interact between them in game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed I don't quite know how this fits into the rest of the debate though, to be honest. The fact remains, however, that the current eleven servers have a wide variety of players. Which is what I would like to see Cryptic protect and encourage
[ QUOTE ]
The real issue is that if we want, we can reroll on a different server (and hopefully one day transfer characters between them). Ignoring the technical feasibility of it, that option will simply not be available to us once the European servers exist - our choice of server will be largely determined at the time and place of purchase, with seemingly no way to reverse that decision without paying out again.
Simple answer (and I realise this is easier said than done): give the players a choice, and give them the option to change their mind. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the current policy is like saying I have to buy the game again if I wanted to play on Protector instead of Victory.
[/ QUOTE ]
Asheron's Call 2, as I recall, gave players the option of playing on a Euro servercluster or US servercluster. No separate game packages or anything - everyone had that choice.
At least that's how I remember it....I remember starting on a Euro server and then moving to a US one for the larger population (and because there was no faction vs faction play for Europe).
I would like to see that - one game box that is the same for every country. Upon logging in, choose continent server cluster. Have a very clear and open way for Euro players to move to the US, and vice versa. That would be a compromise I could live with, I think :P
[ QUOTE ]
One last point on server numbers. Bridger, you've said there will be 'at least' 1 server per language. Right now I have enough alts that I have to spread them across 2 servers. If I wanted, I could create 99 different characters; I don't want that many, but it's nice to know I'm never in danger of running out of slots. If we only get 1 English-speaking European server, a monolingual English-speaking European player would only realistically get 9 slots to use. That would be an issue to me. Yes, just one server is unlikely, but my point is again about choice; another 9 English servers is unlikely, so our alt's numbers will be more restricted than players in the US. The disadvantage could well be marginal, but it will be perceived to be greater by some.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's a good point Another disadvantage for Euro players Personally I wouldn't be too worried about that as I really prefer to play on a single server with the people I've befriended
To me, the whole Euro server thing boils down to "quality of service" vs "servers with a healthy population".
I have so far been VERY happy with the customer service Cryptic have provided, and I think healthy populations should include all nationalities and timezones.
I honestly see no use for a Europe based servercluster. And the idea of one feels threatening to me because some of my friends might actually move. I'll have the honor of deciding which friends mean more to me.
I'd also like to point out the numerous European server consolidations already in progress - Asheron's Call 2 and Horizons coming to mind. They couldn't even fill their Euro servers so had to combine servers. People with identical names, living in the same houses on different servers and so on ending up paying the price. I won't play this card, though, because CoH is just so dang popular and could most likely actually fill several servers with large populations, even in Europe :P
Thank you for your post, SophieX, I think we've pretty much got all pros and cons listed now
Oh, and Writerguy, yes, fire good :P Unlike Euro servers
[ QUOTE ]
Asheron's Call 2, as I recall, gave players the option of playing on a Euro servercluster or US servercluster. No separate game packages or anything - everyone had that choice.
[/ QUOTE ]
All SOE games do this as well.
(Although I understand they actually run every single one of their servers out of San Diego, they just label some of them 'East Coast', 'West Coast' and 'European' knowing full well that noone will be able to tell the difference in a non-twitch game)
The issue is really that it's a forced community. People don't get a choice where to play... it's down to what version of the game they get. That means to continue playing on US servers, where our friends are, we forgo any chance to get the comic and take part in anything Euro based.
On the other side, groups like French Canadians might like to play on a French server. Or immigrants from Europe to America might prefer to play on the new Euro servers. People doing night work might prefer a different timezone server. Some may like to have characters on both Euro and US servers, to take part in both communities.
Choice is the big issue here. Letting people choose where to play, and which community to get involved in, is important. You can't second-guess people's motives for server choice. It doesn't harm the game to let someone from Germany play on a server based in America. It might harm it if that German person wanted to play with US friends on that server, and they found they had to import the game from the US to do so.
If the servers are going to be the same Paragon, at least it isn't too late to change the decision... it is good to learn from the mistakes of other games that have tried to impose region-based server restrictions. Players don't like them. They do feel segregated, and they do feel their choice has been removed.
I was dedicated enough to buy the game online right after beta (and pay some hefty VAT in Belgium) and I will most likely buy CoV when it is released too.
But I will NOT buy another box just to be able to play on a European server. I have a SG on Virtue and all my characters are there.
Allowing us to play on all available servers seems like the customer-friendly thing to do and over time a character-transfer implementation would be nice too.
So far I have been impressed with all aspects of this game, but this is a major disappointment.
I guess my viewpoint is slightly different to most people's regarding the euro release issues. I only recently decided to give CoH a go and currently have a lvl 20 char on Victory.
I'm sure a lot of you guys can empathise when I say I HATE getting into an MMORPG after people have gotten ahead of me, so the reason I started playing CoH at this stage was to get a feel for the game before Euro launch. The fact that the US version will not work on EU servers and vice versa is disappointing though not surprising (I play DAoC after all).
Despite this, I will probably still buy an EU copy of the game if I have to, because I want a clean slate to start my character on. For me, 90% of the fun of a MMORPG is creating my character, working up through the levels, meeting people and making friends along the way. The pride of having a powerful lvl 50 char is only a small part of my enjoyment - hell, I wiped 4 lvl 50s in DAoC just so I could play a different realm on the same server .
I'm sure there are plenty of people who have held off buying the game until EU launch and will be new to the game, and like me, their enjoyment will be tarnished if people can just transfer their lvl 50 chars over onto what should be a fresh server. To my mind, this is grossly unfair to new players. If a transfer service is going to be introduced, it should be held back until at LEAST 3 (preferably 6) months after EU launch to even things up a bit.
So I'm pro being able to play on any or all servers, but anti character transferring to new servers. 
P.S. As far as content goes, nothing needs to be changed. I see no swastikas or anything that needs to be censored for the germans, and we don't need a euro flavour' for our version, games like GTA:VC sold just fine in the EU.
No italian version? Ok any problem soo. I never change side i rest in US .. the time isn't a big issue and the language too, and honestly, i have many Us friend now and i miss their in the change.. is a think that i don't want think eheh.
I don't undestand why is a problem the italian localization.. i sow many problems in many games (i play DAOC italian version for 3 or 4 years.. i don't remember now eheh but i stop play for the 6month of delay for the localization..).
I hope we can see the comics 1 day .. isn't important the language.. without play on European server
Xoenix(controller),Xerosodia(Blaster),Xero Rapsodia(Tanker) and many others on Virtue
And NO PORTUGUESE VERSION 
?
I don't know if the Devs know but Portugal is the most importante country in Europe
So i think they should consider making one. 
[ QUOTE ]
All SOE games do this as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you seen the quality of the translations in the 'localised' versions of EQ2?
Hi.
I live in Poland, but Im from the UK. Ive been playing CoH for about 2 weeks now, and Ive got a lvl 10 blaster. I downloaded the client and bought the CD key from Ncsoft. Id really like to be able to play more with people from my own timezone, but the thought of starting from scratch with a new char if he is at a fairly high level in Feb (and, maybe more importantly :P, possibly losing his name to someone else who chooses it beforr I can on the new server) leaves me a bit glum to tell the truth.
Can you tell me, Bridger, when the results of this 'looking into' char transfer be available? Id like to know before mid December, which is when my current subscription auto-renews. If Char transfer is NOT going to be possible, then theres no point in me playing with any degree of seriousness until Feb. I might as well cancel my sub now and wait till Feb. Half Life 2's out soon, that and my backlog of bought but unplayed FPSs should see me through till then.
Being forced to pay again for this game if I want to play it with fellow Brits makes me grimace slightly, but I would be very disappointed if char transfer wasnt possible.
At the very least, retainment of hero names should be possible for us subscribers who have created heroes on the US servers and want to see their heroes continue in some form at least on the European ones.
MrCaptainMan (Freedom)
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Back again...
Nestum asked:
[ QUOTE ]
How about Portuguese?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, no plans right now. No Flemish either - sorry Bronze_Warrior
R0cktart joined Rangus in his quest:
[ QUOTE ]
I think I know who you are, 1st initial S?
[/ QUOTE ]
No
SophieX made several good points about the benefits of a European version of the game, but there was one thing that I wanted to address:
[ QUOTE ]
1. Language localisation. However, this could just as easily be done on a 'global' server. Plenty of French speakers in Canada, guys...
[/ QUOTE ]
While it's true that the initial translation could be done for a 'global' server (you'd probably still need to use Europeans, though - the French spoken in Canada is not the same as that spoken in Europe), when it comes to supporting the game, you start needing a fair number of fluent and preferably native speakers for customer and billing support, QA and so on. For the community side, you really need people who have at least lived in the relevant country for long enough to understand the gaming and popular culture - ideally someone who grew up there.
Finding good people like this outside of Europe isn't easy. Finding good people like this outside of Europe who are willing to work night shifts on a permanent basis (which they'd have to in order to be available at peak European times) is all but impossible.
CaptainAmazing asked:
[ QUOTE ]
id be intersted to know what happens to those of us that bought a pre order account and gained a prestige running power.
would something like this come accross with the transfer if transfers are even possible ?
[/ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I have no idea, Cap - we'll have to wait and see if character transfer is even going to be technically possible before we can start working on things like that, I'm afraid.
ramas100 seems to have misunderstood one of my earlier comments:
[ QUOTE ]
But hell, if you are so sure you are going to do localisation in a matter of days (DAoC said that too - they currently run 6 months behind) you won't even need two clients to be installed, since surely you can delay the English language launch until the translation if it's really only going to be a few days (lol).
[/ QUOTE ]
We're not going to do localisation in a couple of days. But we don't have to wait for a patch or update to be ready for release before we translate the text - we can start before the code even enters internal testing. As a result, if there's any delay in patches or updates between the US and Europe, it will only be a matter of days.
I know a lot of gamers got burned by the European version of DAoC - I was one of them. We're going to do better. DAoC started six months behind and said they would 'catch up'. We're starting up to date and are going to stay that way.
In another post, ramas100 also said:
[ QUOTE ]
It goes without saying that segregation has no benefits whatsoever for the consumer.
[/ QUOTE ]
That really depends on whether you feel that localised versions of the game complete with dedicated customer and billing support, websites, message boards and community teams in those languages and at peak European times offer any benefits...
Rika_ came back to ask:
[ QUOTE ]
Are you avoiding my question as to why this decision was taken in the first place?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's just that, as a few people have pointed out, it's a business decision. While City of Heroes may be played online, the people and companies responsible for running it are based in the real world, and that means that we have to deal with the same restrictions, limitations and practical concerns as any other multinational company.
Unikorn appears to have missed some of my earlier posts:
[ QUOTE ]
It would seem like extreem greed to force people to buy it again.
[/ QUOTE ]
No one will be forced to buy the game again. If you are happy playing on the US servers, you are welcome to continue doing so.
[ QUOTE ]
Can we still log in here with suggestions to the developers or do we have to do that before we get locked out?
[/ QUOTE ]
Likewise, no one with an active subscription to the US version of CoH will be locked out of these boards (unless you get yourself banned, of course).
B
[ QUOTE ]
That really depends on whether you feel that localised versions of the game complete with dedicated customer and billing support, websites, message boards and community teams in those languages and at peak European times offer any benefits...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to segregate to do any of that.
If you let existing and new players have free access to either server set for instance.
The problem is laying down a chinese wall where players have to decide which side they are permanently going to be on. You'll end up with half the EU coh community outside France and Germany on each side of the wall.
[ QUOTE ]
No one will be forced to buy the game again. If you are happy playing on the US servers, you are welcome to continue doing so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yet you argue that there are good reasons why people will want to switch, so logically you expect most people to do so?
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's just that, as a few people have pointed out, it's a business decision. While City of Heroes may be played online, the people and companies responsible for running it are based in the real world, and that means that we have to deal with the same restrictions, limitations and practical concerns as any other multinational company.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well at least this is an honest explanantion of the reasons.
Though it's interesting that generally the bigger players in the market feel it's worth the effort to run a game with a diverse player base.
[ QUOTE ]
I know a lot of gamers got burned by the European version of DAoC - I was one of them. We're going to do better. DAoC started six months behind and said they would 'catch up'. We're starting up to date and are going to stay that way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll fully admit that daoc is exactly where my secondary worry, about inferior service, comes from.
Thing is, I don't see how you break the vicious circle.
Localisation delays -> less population as vets hold out on US servers -> less money -> less capacity for your team to localise and run CS -> localisation delays.
This is exacerbated by a setup that means european players outside of France and Germany have to pick a 'horse to back' at the start of the process.
Euro-DAoC wasn't (entirely) screwed up because of GOA, low populations caused by this heath-robinson inspired segregated account model left them in an impossible position.
A thought on separate boards for US/Euro subscription:
Due to the nature of message boards and the internet in general you could easily start a war or two between the communities based on percieved dev favoritism in regards to attention.
If we're going to keep the high level of communication between the devs and the community, which I personally think is great, then you run the risk of making players jealous if a question is answered on one board. Cries of "We asked that first" will be heard every time an answer is posted (we even have something similar already with the cries for attention to a specific powerset or AT). If you intend to copy dev posts between the boards you'll end up with a lot of stuff that stands without context and will be taken at face value without any concern for the original meaning. And if you copy then you also have to consider whether the post should be translated to French/German (or English if the original post wasn't).
A special dev post board could be a solution, but it'd have to be read only or it would be spammed to death by anyone with a question whether or not that question could easily be answered by other players. That would mean dropping the (IMO) most valuable thing with the dev communication we have here though, devs directly responding to a post and those little teases States throws around.
I hope you have considered the potential problem and have a better solution than me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That really depends on whether you feel that localised versions of the game complete with dedicated customer and billing support, websites, message boards and community teams in those languages and at peak European times offer any benefits...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to segregate to do any of that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you want their entire staff to be bilingual, you do.
(Actually, multi-lingual in every language they support.)
Statesman may be able to pull that off, but for everyone else that's a bit much to ask
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That really depends on whether you feel that localised versions of the game complete with dedicated customer and billing support, websites, message boards and community teams in those languages and at peak European times offer any benefits...
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to segregate to do any of that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you want their entire staff to be bilngual, you do.
(Actually, multi-lingual in every language they support.)
Statesman may be able to pull that off, but for everyone else that's a bit much to ask
[/ QUOTE ]
Why?
You click on the server you want, some are maked 'english' some are marked 'french' some are marked 'german' some are marked 'US'.
You have English language servers with english speaking CS.
French language servers with french speaking CS.
German language servers with german speaking CS.
And uou need to have that anyway under the proposed model.
Welcome.
Is ANYONE happy about these proposed changes who is English speaking?
I can understand the reasons for this for people who need support, forums and in game material in their own languages, but to cause all this trouble for the existing customers seems to be a really bad idea.
I have done my bit to support CoH against the lawsuit by boycotting them for being bad towards CoH customers. I know that customers demanding a way they want to be treated gets results, so if you are unhappy about these changes then tell Cryptic.
I for one am deeply annoyed about this! Plus the lack of answers, I can understand there not being all the answers we want yet as the decisions may not have been made or still may be in discussion but I don't appreciate being ignored when i ask a question.
I pay for this by the way!
Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy!!!
I don't get why people are upset over this... The people who choose to play on the European servers have that choice, Europeans that have the US version can stay on the current servers. People who have limited understanding of English can get a game in their language, as well as support, etc in their own native language.
CoH is expanding worldwide which makes the game more successful, which in turn brings in more money for the company. We already get tons of extra stuff right now from this game (Issues, etc), so the more successful this game is, the more stuff we will get, right?
Seems like a pretty positive thing in my eyes. I also think it's pretty friggen kewl that Bridger is taking the time to answer all these questions.
On a previous page Bridger said that US players will, for no obvious reason, be prevented from playing on european servers; just as anyone buying in europe will be pointlessly segregated from the US servers.