Statesman, issue with your position on blasters
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Making mobs tougher and making our AOE weaker
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Never said exactly this. My hope is that making mobs tougher ALONE would bring AOE damage into line. But, I'm still researching different methods to solving this problem.
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Then what's the plan to make single target attacks on blasters worthwhile? Where's the advantage to an ice or electric blaster who doesn't have the full arsenal of strong AEs? The fact is, short of a snipe, AE powers can do nearly the same damage to a single target as single target powers -- albeit at an elevated endurance cost. But this equates to killing 20 minions in the time it would take to kill 1 minion with a single target build.
What this presents is horrible risk for blasters without good AE power -- they aggro just as many, for no better kill rate per target. And they can't tackle tougher, smaller spawns, because they still kill too slowly vs. AEing -- if it's 3 mobs, the AE is as or more efficient, and if you can survive long enough to kill 3 mobs one at a time, you can survive the initial volley that AEing them would subject you to. It's just not a feasible tradeoff unless the single target damage per move is higher by a factor of 2 or 3. Snipe's a good amount -- for, say, lightning bolt at best (using electric as an example), if you're happy with the current damage of AEs.
Im not sure that you could make a very good argument that a single target blaster generates as much agro as an AE blaster.
That being said, i agree that single target blasters get borked. But i dont think that AE blasters are to strong. I think that single target blasters are to weak. I think that AE blasting should be common to all the blaster sets and that the three blaster sets that we refer to at this time as "single target blasters" should have there AoEs strengthened to the point where they to are considered "AoE blasters".
To put this more simply, I think that AE blasters are what Blasters should be. I think that There shouldnt be AE blasters and Single Target Blasters. All Blasters should be AE blasters and then it would be just Blasters.
an interesting point, Punisher.
My main is a lv 40 Ice/ Dev, and even though I love my single Target abilities (which are the best in the game!!!), I could not have hit 40 without the help of Targeting Drone, pre-update Smoke Grenade, and most of all, a 6 slotted Trip Mine. Only the use of Trip Mine allowed me to kill masses of even lv mobs and help me lv quickly. That is why, even though Ice-Eng is just as good a set, I will never recommend it to anyone.
The game as a whole would be more balanced if the blaster lines were more AOE while the scrapper lines were more single target. But hey, scrappers have BS and Spines, tankers have Fire-Fire, we should be allowed to enjoy our own AOE attacks without the fear of nerfs.
please keep telling Statesman to stop trying to fix what is not really broken - instead, we should all get on the same bandwagon and tell him to get update 3 and CoV here as quickly as possible
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Maybe so Ilhulbert but this is not the military. This is an rpg. The object is to destroy the enemy. In an rpg the guy that kills people is not the support. The guys that keep that guy alive are the support.
The reason that killing elements are support in the military is becuase the object of war is not to destroy the enemy. It is to gain control of land. Therefore ground troops, which actually sieze and control land, are the main element, and support units like artillery exist to assist them in doing that.
However if one breaks the military down into sub-elements (which is actually how it is, I am in the Navy) then each sub element has a particular mission. The personel who directly accomplish that mission are the primary element. The personel who assist them are the support.
Take the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for instance. The pilots would be the primary becuase they actually accomplish the mission. Then there is a vast amount of other people who maintain and arm the planes as well as providing intelligence. Those are the support.
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I want to be the first to Salute you then and thank you for guarding our Country during very questionable times. I also Agree that the Core component is the one seeking/attaining an Objective. Territory for example is of much less use to us in a war on Terror, I understand it creates a buffer zone, but it's still a whole different Ball Park, yet a support structure can exist it in just like everywhere. Not to mention this Particular RPG features Military Training as a primary half of one of the final Origins. As I said earlier, Some Blasters can be the Core, and others are Support... it depends on the objective and the nature of the enemy.
What I'm trying to point out in all of this in that regard, is that a Blaster who takes up the Artillary role and nothing else, will not only draw unwanted attention to themselves, but also won't have a good hard final punch ready at close range when the enenmy closes in on them. Even a brigade of Bowman who kept daggers stood a fighting chance against the odd Footman rush.
But it might also be a Problem, like a poster on this last page showed, that AoE is
so effective under the old rules it makes a Single-Target attack look weak.
This is exactly why I'm saying BuildUp and Aim shouldn't work with AoE, it's making them too powerful and so tempting that most Blasters can't stand the thought of losing it and will make total fools of themselves like Heph did to argue the same point 20 times without saying ANYTHING. FeiWu's right: "You haven't had anything solid to argue or say in 30 pages except Blasters need utility/defense powers in the 2nds not damage, which pretty much everyone agrees on."
If you look at any other Secondary, it has things that atleast make the other powers in that Same secondary more possible... Even powerpools do that, just look at Fighting. The Blaster's Secondary is a list that's way too short on close-range options. I'm saying if we can get this "Fix to AoE" out of the way early, everyone can just accept it, we might be able to get the Support in the rest of the Secondary that really is needed and has been needed since day-1. (Now Soloing, that's an Issue for another Thread that we shouldn't clog this one up with)
Agree to Disagree yall. Keep the flames down or it will be as hard to post in this thread as it is to get into the City of Gyros.
I say if you nerf aoe's increase our hp and single target damage.
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The game as a whole would be more balanced if the blaster lines were more AOE while the scrapper lines were more single target. But hey, scrappers have BS and Spines, tankers have Fire-Fire, we should be allowed to enjoy our own AOE attacks without the fear of nerfs.
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Why should scrappers get single target attacks when aoe is clearly so much better?
Allow me to make my position clear. I think aoe in this game is borked. Not aoe blasters. I think fire tankers, spines, and all of it need to be toned down in some way. Maybe not damage, but something. Besides my Fire blaster being a leveling machine (and he's more concept than power build) I recently rolled up another scrapper, with a pbaoe dot in his defense, several cones (one is a late attack that I don't have yet) and another pbaoe, he takes on things I wouldn't have even tackled with my single target scrapper. The +1 mission bug? Hasn't made a bit of difference, the most annoying part is outleveling contacts before I can finish arcs with all the extra exp. It doesn't take a whiz to figure out that even with just a cones coverage that hitting 3 mobs for 50 a pop versus one for 75 is good use of endurance. That's a low end look at it. Never mind the herding of 100+ mobs and small teams getting a pip every 25 minutes. I hear a lot of players blow off such tactics as not impacting other peoples play, and if it were true that'd be one thing. But aoe has a clear advantage from the top of the min/maxer activities to the average joe who teams and solos and never reads the boards. It is literally infinitely better.
Clearly any changes made to aoe need to have other balances and adjustments put into place for the AT's and the individual sets that use them, so they remain viable and fun.
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Making mobs tougher and making our AOE weaker
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Never said exactly this. My hope is that making mobs tougher ALONE would bring AOE damage into line. But, I'm still researching different methods to solving this problem.
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The only thing that will do is make groups get an extra blaster and syncronize their AOE's. It won't make tanks and controllers any more useful to groups at high levels (and in fact will simply make it harder for them solo or in small groups)
IF you make mobs have more HP's, and then increase the damage that everyone except blasters do to compensate, then won't it be the exact same thing as removing that SILLY blaster damage increase that was put in the last week of beta?
Why is it so difficult to admit a mistake and undo this change instead of spending so much time and effort designing around it?
-elfling
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Such a construct is often advanced in a form that fits false dichotomy but you were the ones laying out the possibilities. If it is a false dichotomy then it is one of your making.
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Hmm on top of being mathematically challenged you seem to have a short memory combined with reading comprehension problems. Unless are trying to create strawmen from my previous statements you laid out the delema not I. I merely pointed out they were not mutually exclusive as you so foolishly claimed.
So, what is it, strawmen, false dilemma, outright desperation?
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If by screwing up you mean things like failing to buff before hand, then you may have a point, but that gets back to the competency of the group.
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Such a construct is often advanced in a form that fits false dichotomy but you were the ones laying out the possibilities. If it is a false dichotomy then it is one of your making.
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Unless are trying to create strawmen from my previous statements you laid out the delema not I. I merely pointed out they were not mutually exclusive as you so foolishly claimed.
So, what is it, strawmen, false dilemma, outright desperation?
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If by screwing up you mean things like failing to buff before hand, then you may have a point, but that gets back to the competency of the group.
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Hmm you do seem to like strawmen dont you. Sorry, but you are not in a position to define what type of mistakes I am referring to on my behalf. If you have ever been part of a well played team however you will understand what types of mistakes I am referring to, but perhaps you simply have not been part of a really good team where subtle things make the difference rather then gross errors. From your posts I would say probably not, and that you consider good play simply no making L2 noob mistakes.
In any case my point remains perfectly clear, since it seems you are the only one who doesnt get it I will repeat it succinctly for others who dont want to want to dig back through this thread to see what Im talking about.
When people make a mistake in a group, no matter who that person is, blasters are by far the most likely to pay the price. When blasters group at all they need to be at or near the highest levels in the group in order to contribute to that group.
Both these points have been widely accepted by everyone in this thread, but you. Since you remain incapable of building an argument to refute them I will ignore your continued attempts to sidetrack, derail and otherwise draw attention away from them until such a time as you come up with an argument that has at least a little merit.
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Why should scrappers get single target attacks when aoe is clearly so much better?
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Other then alpha strikes, blasters need to use skill and/or teamwork to make their AoEs effective. If you add strong defensive capabilities into the mix this goes out the window.
The mix of AoEs and overpowered defense is at least as disruptive as alpha strike AoE combinations that can wipe out whole groups of mobs every 20 seconds. Personally I would rather see this fixed by adjusting the defensive capabilities, but ultimately the strength of AoEs is going to have to be balanced against weaker defense in order to keep the risk reward equation balanced..
BTW my contention has always been that the problem isnt AOEs, its the front loaded nature of some of the high damage but slightly slower attack rate AoEs (As opposed to AoEs with a very very slow attack rate. If you can only use a power every 6 min it should be very good when you do use it.) This allows mobs to be killed before they can mount an effective counterattack, negating the need for defenses, but if you can survive the counterattack that is every bit as good.
If you look at the AoEs the difference between an AOE blaster and a single target blaster is not all that dependent on the DPS of their AoEs its how big the initial hit is. Slow heavy AoEs make an AoE blaster; light fast AoEs make a single target blaster even if their overall damage output is comparable.
The solution to the current problems with AoEs should be to A) remove their ability to first strike kill. Either make them do less damage with shorter animations and recharge, or increase mob hit points. AND B) remove the ability of any AT to survive the aggro of massive numbers of mobs, or even smaller numbers (in the 20 range) without support.
I think making all the AT's equal in the respect that they all have a designed stregth, and a weakness is the way it should be done. If Blasters are able to level faster, and survive better then everyone will want to be a Blaster, and the other AT's will become useless!
Someone mentioned earlier that they wish there were no AT's just super heros, and all where equal - WHAT!!! That makes no sense; what MMO is like that? Different classes is what makes teaming work, and it gives the game multiple aspects to the gameplay, and provides stratagy.
Here's a qoute from the manual:
"Blasters specialize in deliverying massive damage at range. They have VERY LITTLE DEFENSIVE POTENTIAL, other than the abaility to keep the enemy at arm's length.
A Blaster can solo successfully, IF HE REMAINS AWARE OF HIS SITUATION AT ALL TIMES, but this archtype comes into it's own IN GROUPS, where Defenders, Scrappers, and Tankers can take the brunt of the enemy attacks, freeing the Blaster to use his offensive potential to it's fullest."
It seems the devs are trying to stay as close to this concept as possible. It states Blasters deliver massive damage, not deadly damage! They have little defensive potential thus the need to utilize the pools (see more on this below). If Blasters are able to wipe out mobs before they can attack, or withstand the attact then why would they need Defenders, Scrappers, and Tankers?
The final point I want to make is about the Pool powers. My understanding of the Pool powers is that they are for travel, and to suppliment deficent areas in a characters ability. So I take this to mean that if you choose ANY AT; in order to be well rounded you would have to choose several pool powers to increase defense/offense, or make up for your short comings (because all AT's have 1).
One last thing. Cyclops is the classic example of a Blaster AT. He can do major damage at range with his optic blast, but he has NO defense, and minor melee capabilities (normal fighting skills). Alone he's almost nothing against multple foes, but group him with Wolverine (Scrapper), Collosis (Tanker), and Storm (Controller) then you have a TEAM that is well rounded, and can take on a mob much larger then themselves.
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Im not sure that you could make a very good argument that a single target blaster generates as much agro as an AE blaster.
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In a group setting? Of course not. But in a group setting, you can get a tanker to provoke, and then the kill rate of AEing still far outshines that of single target. Given the option of getting a blaster that mows through everything, and one that mows through one thing at a time at the same speed -- which do you pick for your group?
And soloing, it is exactly the case that the aggro is equal. I find a group of 6 minions and shoot one -- they all turn around and go "huh? BANG!" -- just like if I hit all of them at once. And that's the crux of the issue. Single target isn't safer but slower solo -- it's just plain slower, and if you've got anybody else doing mass aggro in a group, it's still just plain slower, and you're both safe.
So... What is massive damage to you?
I mean seriously, what is it to you?
I mean if a scrapper's whirling sword can make mobs die in three swipes, how many attacks should a "massive" damage AT have to do for an AoE?
By the way, couldn't Cyclops just take off his visor and obliterate all of the foes if there isn't any chance of damaging innocents?
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Other then alpha strikes, blasters need to use skill and/or teamwork to make their AoEs effective. If you add strong defensive capabilities into the mix this goes out the window.
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I was asking the person whose hypothetical divide between Scrap/Blast damage should be aoe vs. single target damage. Unless single target attacks are boosted, or aoe made much less effective aoe/cones will always be prefered. Shadow Maul is considered one of, if not THE best attack available to scrappers. You better believe it has a lot to do with it being a cone.
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The mix of AoEs and overpowered defense is at least as disruptive as alpha strike AoE combinations that can wipe out whole groups of mobs every 20 seconds.
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Agreed. Which is why I have a problem with aoe in general as it is in the game. And also why I included spines/inv/reg scrappers and fire tankers. Defenses becoming less needed in the high level game is another issue that needs to be considered, and mob adjustments may change much of that. However, only two sets ever tank. Inv and Reg. Nerfing scrapper defense sets broadly would be a poor idea.
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BTW my contention has always been that the problem isnt AOEs, its the front loaded nature of some of the high damage but slightly slower attack rate AoEs
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Certainly it's not aoe in theory, but how it's practiced. Yet, unless mob numbers are adjusted as well, all it takes is an aoe to hit 3 mobs doing 1/3 of a single target attack to equal the damage. Most aoe's that I've witnessed do more than 1/3 of single target, and they certainly hit more than 3 mobs.
The game as it stands now the game rewards slaughtering mass amounts of enemies quickly. Single target damage dealers, though perhaps liked for tackling monsters/AV's are not really all that effective for the majority of encounters.
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but if you can survive the counterattack that is every bit as good.
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I wondered when I first made my blaster why they didn't have powers that increased their def/res to ranged attacks. Clearly, it wouldn't be nearly has high as scrapper/tanker defensive numbers. But having "chaff" pod powers in all the blaster secondaries would make a lot of sense.
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The solution to the current problems with AoEs should be to A) remove their ability to first strike kill. Either make them do less damage with shorter animations and recharge, or increase mob hit points. AND B) remove the ability of any AT to survive the aggro of massive numbers of mobs, or even smaller numbers (in the 20 range) without support.
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Clearly things that are needed in the game. I would amend though that aoe vs. single target damage dealing really needs to be looked over for how economical they are versus each other, and that in altering the defense game care should be taken to not break anything. (Dark Armor for example)
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When people make a mistake in a group, no matter who that person is, blasters are by far the most likely to pay the price. When blasters group at all they need to be at or near the highest levels in the group in order to contribute to that group.
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It seems to me AI that favors certain targets over others could help greatly in this situation. A tank smasher prefering to fight a tank (scrappers being ranked #2) may treat damage from another class as being lesser because their hated foe is in the group. Other enemies could realize a vulnerability to status attacks, and mostly ignore damage dealers in the pursuit of the "real threat". The aggro system with artificial provok/taunts and degree of damage certainly makes a situation for aoe damage dealers in general, and frail blasters in particular, where they will be singled out for counter blows. Perhaps more unique AI that would require more tactics and group dynamism could help.
I am not concerned with the effectiveness of Blaster AOE's as much as the fact that it draws Aggro and now with Blaster Defenses less effective and Mob HP and Dmg more effective. Our jobs just got rediculously tougher.
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By the way, couldn't Cyclops just take off his visor and obliterate all of the foes if there isn't any chance of damaging innocents?
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No. His Visor works like a Turnikit prevents bleeding and locks in sustinants. Without his Blasting power locked in by the Visor, he immediately goes from Headache to Migrane, and becomes weak and on the brink of death from pure Exhaustion. I'm not sure but I think it's derivative of some mythological feature where a dininity's soul could escape the body in a destructive and violent "bleeding" of pure light once a mortal wound was made.
bull. Been reading Xmen For decades And I've seen him take of that visor dozens of time and completel level stuff. Put it back on and keep on trucking.
Besides lets end all of this comic book analogy crap. Comics have no real bearing on CoH. how many fire manipulating assault rifle types are their out there, in comics?
Heres a blaster for you. Havok. He can knock out star ships... pulverize moutain tops...... level cities. Now that I think about it most heroes who fit the "blaster" archetype in comics are over the top engines of destruction. What 20 minions could stand against the human torch? most arch villans cower before his nova flame. What 20 minons can stand against the IceMan. They'd find them selves flash frozen in seconds.
Let's deal with what we have here. An offensively weighted high risk build. That needs to be teamed....... needs massive damage to support that team.... and at the same time marginilizes every other member on that team because of that very damage.
The very concept is broken. And the only way to fix it is to make the game so hard everyone has to team. all the time. The problem is that's not how the game was designed. Not at all. People were told that the blaster can solo. The blaster was given enormous power and range to supoort that. but in the late game street hunting is composed of nothing but huge groups.
Very huge groups, some with the ability to stun or mez at range. Missions are populated with bosses that no single blaster should be able to take down.
The only way a blaster can survive solo in that enviroment is moving from group to group unleashing holocaust after holocaust. If you want to make people happy.... allow the solo blaster to go after small groups by ensuring that theres a modicum of small sized groups. Let the teams handle the large spawns.
Otherwise upcoming changes will turn the whole concept of CoH into a lie. We'll end up with "any other MMO" Unless you're a scrapper.
I'm a tanker most of the time, but I've also got a Fire/Fire blaster, and I have to say the difference between the two is pretty insane. As a Tanker I'm always ignoring whatever 'damage' I'm taking, while attempting to kill the thing without the next ice age freezing me.
As my blaster it's usually a few quick shots filled with terrified, frenzied backpeddling and hovering. I keep wishing, as a blaster, I could have my Tanker's Unyielding Stance. I could use it more than he ever does.
But I don't think AoE's are the issue. As someone else said, it's the front-loaded nature of them. Meaning that I wait a few seconds and they're all charged, so I can go and drop a pile of fire on them and watch them burn as I fly away, and pick off the stragglers.
If I don't, and try to fire blast them each, I die! I can't stand up and engage anything! I'm always in favor of decreasing some critical flaws by giving up some massive advantages... because it seems more heroic to be average in all areas besides the ones I'm best at. But I have less damage-soaking power than the stuff I'm fighting, and they do an awful lot to me. Wouldn't drifting a bit closer to center be advantageous? Sure, we wouldn't kill things as fast, but we'd live twice as long. I'd rather feel a bit more durable than feel like a one-shot-wonder.
This goes for all other AT's. Scrappers are a good model of offense/defense for overall fun factor... if we used them as the base, and adjusted off that, I bet we'd have a lot more happy AT'ers. Would it make the game easy? Well, it's always easy to say "These enemies now have 3x as many HP's as before" if people are really that hard-up for challenges.
But I don't call getting one-shotted a challenge, I just call it cruel.
as the game gows past 40, blasters take more and more risks when attacking. It's not like in the 30s when the mobs were easier. After 40 expect to fight carnies, praetorians, malta... all of whom will whup your butt if your alpha strike doesnt down them in the first 5 sec.
end game is tough as is. If they raise minion hps of mobs post 40, I really have to belive that they are looking to force us to group. even at this point, blasters are forced to run away after the initial alpha strike and come back, as if we are thieves in the night instead of warriors designed after comic book heroes.
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I say if you nerf aoe's increase our hp and single target damage.
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LOL, get in line behind Defenders for an hp bump. 
Every time I have seen hps increased or damage weakened in a game, I considered it the easy way out of a problem for the coders.
How about this for an idea? Instead of upping everything's hit points, up only the boss hitpoints. Then give the boss the ability to summon fresh reinforcements when outnumbered, like a whole group of them. That way, the AoErs still get to kill plenty of stuff, but fights are not trivialized and even a simple street fight could be crazy and a lot of fun (like the way 2 tsoo sorcs can keep a whole group alive when you're in your teens).
This seems to becoming a game of wimpout ie if you are a blaster and you use your powers--- you die. If you sit back and let otheres kill and shoot a single target power once in a while you live and gain exp. Please explain how this is good.
If i group and i fire my AOE's the its a guarenteed death for me--though everyone else loves it cuase they still get full exp.
and i do enough damage before i die so they can survive. I have been in multiple groups since issue 2 and the ONLY ones dieing on a regular basis are blasters. No matter that i have a Defender(empathy) who's full time job now is to heal me and she can't keep up even with me jumping around dodgeing badguys. I HAVE RACKED UP AN IMPRESSIVE 1/4 TO 1/2 MILLION DEBT IN JUST UNDER A WEEK (and yes the cap is below that but i have NEVER been out of debt since issue 2 came out and atm i expect that i will be spending twice the exp to gain a lvl that everyone else does for the rest of my career. I amwatching everyone else gain lvls and wish i had chosen a diff char type when we started cause they are already having to sk me so i can play is that fair.
Figured i' d make it up soloing when noone else was on but
Since issue 2 i can no longer even solo some of my missions-- i am lvl 32 and a boss on a mission (red) kills me every time (ie even with cj,cloak, smoke and acrobatics he hits me EVERY time and takes 1/3 to 1/2 my hit points (ranged) and 3/4 to all at point blank. i have tried everything inc trip mines(he creates swarms that trigger them ahead of him) to kill him but forget
CONGRATS you whiners you have what you wanted blasters have NO defences and we die to make you happy.
Yes i admite we do ALOT of damage but it doesn't help us now just you. i have done 2000+ points to a mob but i died shortly there after as the tank count keep agro and the defender couldnt heal me fast enough. I help the party kill the mob but it cost me more exp to do it than it was worth(for me)
So as i stated maybe i should go and just hit my single target attack onbce in a while and reap the exp and let others kill them and i gain the benifits----a game of wimpout---(and i have watched and kicked blasters who do this -- but they are becoming more common.wonder why?
Enough complaining. I just wish things hadn't changed it was so fun before now its just frustrating.
The rest of issue 2 is cool the capes and such.
SFC America Assault/Dev Blaster LVL 50
Cpt Patriot Inv/SS Tanker LVL 40+
Entropy MA/Inv Scrapper LVL 30+
Warbot En/En Blaster LVL 40 +
Heh... in my own missions i have to carry a full load of lucks and disciplines to get anywhere. many times I have to leave the mission several times to see contacts for new supplies. And that 's TEAMED. And I'm in my 40's.
I completely agree. Not everyone has the time to look for a group, and finding one that breaks up minutes later can leave you frustrated and unwilling to take the time to even log back on the next day. I have allot of things to do, but I enjoy veggin' in front of my PC from time to time. When I have only twenty minutes of online time to enjoy a game;it's pleasing to know my blaster can wander IP abit and not end up beneath a Capo's boot. If this changes I'll certainly not be taking the time to keep an account active on this game.