Fighting Purples Vs. Fighting Whites
By
Arcadian_Hunter,
Posted on: 2004-09-15 24:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
To sum up: Longer fights based on to hit ratio seem more fun to me than longer fights based on huge HP bars.
I like the idea of less XP per kill and much large groupings of MOBs.
Statesman said 1 hero = 3 minons
How about that scales based on level.
L01-10: 1 Hero = 3 minions
L11-20: 1 Hero = 6 minions
L21-25: 1 Hero = 9 minons
L25-30: 1 Hero = 12 minons
L31-35: 1 Hero = 15 minions
L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
XP rewards could be adjusted accordingly, based on the assumtion. That way herding 100 minions for a 3 Hero team isn't too far off the mark. Besides, I love being able to eliminate 10-15 Crey solo at L30.
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I like the idea of less XP per kill and much large groupings of MOBs.
Statesman said 1 hero = 3 minons
How about that scales based on level.
L01-10: 1 Hero = 3 minions
L11-20: 1 Hero = 6 minions
L21-25: 1 Hero = 9 minons
L25-30: 1 Hero = 12 minons
L31-35: 1 Hero = 15 minions
L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
XP rewards could be adjusted accordingly, based on the assumtion. That way herding 100 minions for a 3 Hero team isn't too far off the mark. Besides, I love being able to eliminate 10-15 Crey solo at L30.
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That is an even worse suggestion for classes that cannot take on large groups.
The Original Poster's suggestion is good. But then you will end up with people firing a couple single target shots at a group then Alpha Striking it.
Given a 3 to 1 ratio, maybe adding a curve in so that as the ratio increases the damage capacity for the villains increases along with their defence. A large group will then be harder to AoE to oblivion since it will be harder for the AoE to effect every single target. Also, since you have a better spread of firepower, their accuracy would increase.
This would mean that larger groups would be buffed by their sheer size to hit more frequently and take less AoE damage. Also, for the ratio to scale properly, all teammates would need to be within the same proximity to that group (like the SK radius with a briefer grace period). That way you don't end up with 5 Soloers teaming up to solo and negate the buff by exploiting the group ratios.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
Half the enemies means half the rewards Enhancement-wise as well. Not a problem for us powergamers as you say but could be for the casual player, until 38 when even then influence shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
Ehh? What are you talking about?
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
My thought was that it would keep track for each individual Mob, that way firing solo shots at a single mob will only lower its defense not the defense of the rest of the group. If a blaster only single targets with sniper so as not to aggro the rest, then he is significantly slowed from the quick AoE masses of xp, which is on of the main goals of this change anyway 
I want it to vary by villian group.
Let's say a group like the Fifth Column or Nemesis, they've got LOTS of weak foot-soldiers. So while you could only solo the "3 minions" at low levels, at high levels you're expected to solo large groups of minions. Of course, you throw in difficult lts and bosses in there to keep it fair. So Alpha strike isn't the be all end all winner.
But then you have groups like Rikti or Devouring Earth where each minion is considerably, considerably tougher. BUT, they're also worth more experience.
So, let's while a hero might be expected to take on more 5th at one time than Rikti, in the end the experience balances out. And a hero still feels heroic because you fight hordes of lesser foes but fewer stronger foes.
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My thought was that it would keep track for each individual Mob, that way firing solo shots at a single mob will only lower its defense not the defense of the rest of the group. If a blaster only single targets with sniper so as not to aggro the rest, then he is significantly slowed from the quick AoE masses of xp, which is on of the main goals of this change anyway
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I like this idea a lot. Make it 50% dmg resistance for the first strike, 25% for the second, none for the third and beyond (unless the mob otherwise has innate dmg resistance). Do it per mob, not per group. It guarentees that no one can AOE a group to death before the group gets to attack it (unless it greens and greys). It also improves solo abilities of support classes in a relative sense. If I as I controller (for example) have an AOE disorient like Flashfire that does minimal DoT but is a great crowd controller, that as an opening attack will take care of the first strike resistance. So it's going to affect the damage dealers the most. It'll mean they have to have support to take on the largest and toughest groups.
You'd need to increase per mob XP though for this to be appropriate, otherwise it's just a blanket increase in overall game difficulty. Just like the devs would add XP if they were to add addditional HP, you'd have to do it with this concept as well.
Also, I would only implement this with mobs higher than X level. You might implement it in a phased manner. Example, at level 22, mobs have 10%/5% resistance for first/second strike. At level 23, its 15%/7.5%. At level 30, its 50%/25% where it's capped.
- felicity
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Half the enemies means half the rewards Enhancement-wise as well. Not a problem for us powergamers as you say but could be for the casual player, until 38 when even then influence shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
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Easily fixed. Just make the drops be DOs and SOs only, No Training Drops On Boosted Minions!
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L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
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Under this scenario, a team of 8 heroes would be facing 240 minions in a single mission room. I don't need to point out that 1) the rooms aren't big enough for this and 2) most video cards aren't good enough for this. You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.
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I like the idea of less XP per kill and much large groupings of MOBs.
Statesman said 1 hero = 3 minons
How about that scales based on level.
L01-10: 1 Hero = 3 minions
L11-20: 1 Hero = 6 minions
L21-25: 1 Hero = 9 minons
L25-30: 1 Hero = 12 minons
L31-35: 1 Hero = 15 minions
L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
XP rewards could be adjusted accordingly, based on the assumtion. That way herding 100 minions for a 3 Hero team isn't too far off the mark. Besides, I love being able to eliminate 10-15 Crey solo at L30.
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The main problem with large groups of smaller villains is twofold. First of all, an AoE attack will deal twice as much damage against two 100 HP villains than against one 200 HP villain. To a lot of character builds, taking on twenty of one type of mob is almost as quick and easy as taking on just one. Second of all, dealing 100 damage to the above group of two 100 HP villains can cut the damage potential in half, whereas 100 damage to a single 200 HP villain leaves him still at full offensive power. To a powerful damage dealer in the current game being able to kill enemies quickly is a very effective form of damage mitigation. If you were to face a single large villain with the combined damage potential and HP of a group of 10 regular villains, you would require both a damage dealer and a damage mitigator to be as effective as a single damage dealer is now.
What this change does is leave the XP per damage ratio the same, but remove the AoE damage dealer's ability to trivialize large groups of minions, and reduce the ability of damage dealers in general to control mobs by killing them. If a level 30 hero was expected to fight a group of 12 or 15 mobs solo in a typical encounter, then alpha strikes designed to take out large numbers of smaller mobs become even more powerful than they are now. If instead he or she was expected to face two or three larger villains with the same level of power as those 12 or 15 little mobs, it's a whole different game. Leading off with a massive AoE strike will still deal decent damage, but it won't reduce the enemy's ability to return fire, and won't reward you with any experience until you finish one of them off.
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You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.
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Wow states I'm amazed. I didn't think you'd ever come out and say that small groups are penalized by adding more members past 3 or 4 after yesterdays declaration that there was no group penalty at all for adding team members. Kudos to you for seeing past the simple math of the group bonus.
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Under this scenario, a team of 8 heroes would be facing 240 minions in a single mission room. I don't need to point out that 1) the rooms aren't big enough for this and 2) most video cards aren't good enough for this. You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.
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Isn't that the exact reason why we have been complaining about the Pruple Patch? The fact is larger groups would have to fight higher level villians for an appropriate challenge and reward. That came to an end with the PP.
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L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
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Under this scenario, a team of 8 heroes would be facing 240 minions in a single mission room. I don't need to point out that 1) the rooms aren't big enough for this and 2) most video cards aren't good enough for this. You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.
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As much fun as it would be to have 200-300 minions for the uber AoE slaughter-fest, it's just not going to happen. Statesman's got the physical aspect covered, but think about the in-game implications. People are already complaining about herders who gather up 50-100 minions at a time. 200-300, already pre-gathered (probably gift-wrapped too). How about you just put a glowing object that's worth a full level every time you click it.
On the post about the purple patch - yes, if groups could street sweep higher level critters at a wider range, then sure, the issue would be resolved. Missions, however, would continue to be simple - and therefore worthless for XP.
On the "group penalty" myth - there is a NO penalty for groups. There is an XP bonus for every member you add to a group. BUT, the problem is that the more members you have in your group, the fewer areas there are that have a challenge big enough for you. So you can street sweep more effectively with 4 or less - because you can go into areas now that were designed for groups of 6 to 8, but aren't hard enough now. That larger group is left in limbo.
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Wow states I'm amazed. I didn't think you'd ever come out and say that small groups are penalized by adding more members past 3 or 4 after yesterdays declaration that there was no group penalty at all for adding team members. Kudos to you for seeing past the simple math of the group bonus.
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Wipe the smirk off your face, Bonzo. If you acually read what he said, you'd notice that he's not talking about the same thing you're deriding him on.
(asides)
Is it just me, or are these forum posters intentionally trying to act smarter than the people who made the game and failing miserably?
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L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
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Under this scenario, a team of 8 heroes would be facing 240 minions in a single mission room. I don't need to point out that 1) the rooms aren't big enough for this and 2) most video cards aren't good enough for this. You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.
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I bolded the part in his reply I find important.
He just spend an entire thread repeating over and over that there is no group penalty, and instructing players to find bigger groups of harder mobs.
Could it be that he gets it now? I hope so. And I certainly hope that he realizes that removing the purple patch completely would clear this problem up as well as many others.
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L36-40: 1 Hero = 20 minions
L41-45: 1 Hero = 25 minons
L46-50: 1 Hero = 30 minons
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Under this scenario, a team of 8 heroes would be facing 240 minions in a single mission room. I don't need to point out that 1) the rooms aren't big enough for this and 2) most video cards aren't good enough for this. You'd end up with exactly what we have now - small groups hunting massive spawns, while the larger groups are penalized because there's nothing challenging enough for them.
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How about:
L1-10: 3 minions
L11-20: 4 minions
L21-25: 5 minions
L26-30: 6 minions
L31-35: 7 minions
L36-40: 8 minions
L41-45: 9 minions
L46-50: 10 minions
L1-10: 1 Lt
L11-20: 2 Lts
L21-30: 3 Lts
L31-40: 4 Lts
L41-50: 5 Lts
L1-50: 1 Boss
L1-50: .125 of an AV
I think this ratio would reflect a progression in power in the game (and comics) much better. As you grow in power, you can not only take on more tougher foes, but slightly more as well. However Bosses and Lieutenants remain fearsome.
And at 30th level, that 8 man team would encounter something like 1 Boss, 3 Lts, and 36 minions. At 20th level, the same team fought 1 Boss, 2 Lts, and 20 minions...now they feel more like they are making progress.
What do you all think?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Could it be that he gets it now? I hope so. And I certainly hope that he realizes that removing the purple patch completely would clear this problem up as well as many others.
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The Purple Patch is going to be irrelevant with what Stateman's end goal is (and one I heartily endorse at that). I recommend giving up on that particular windmill.
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On the post about the purple patch - yes, if groups could street sweep higher level critters at a wider range, then sure, the issue would be resolved. Missions, however, would continue to be simple - and therefore worthless for XP.
On the "group penalty" myth - there is a NO penalty for groups. There is an XP bonus for every member you add to a group. BUT, the problem is that the more members you have in your group, the fewer areas there are that have a challenge big enough for you. So you can street sweep more effectively with 4 or less - because you can go into areas now that were designed for groups of 6 to 8, but aren't hard enough now. That larger group is left in limbo.
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But don't we start the vicious circle again? Because of the purple patch large groups can't fight anything worth the XP. Which means in essence you get penalized XP wise. I get 400 something per level 40 minion solo. A level 43 minion in a group of 4 would get me less than that. Grouping being easier than soloing is not always the case. In fact I die more often in a group than solo. As a matter of fact I haven't died solo since my late 20's and I'm 40 now.
So in essence it may not actually be a group penalty but it sure seems like it. I know you guys are going to work it out. The mission XP buff was a giant step in the right direction, just keep heading that way.
Shameless plug:
Oh yeah give us defenders more HP's we need to be everywhere in battle. We should be the true Medium HP/Medium Damage characters
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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He just spend an entire thread repeating over and over that there is no group penalty, and instructing players to find bigger groups of harder mobs.
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It's called semantics and accuracy of language. "A penalty for large groups" implies that built into the game mechanics there is some negative modifier that kicks into effect after a group reaches a certain size. This is not the case. In the game mechanics increase XP for each member in a party so there is a bonus.
The behavior he noted is not built into the game mechanics. It is an unintended byproduct of the scaling of heroes vs. mobs at the higher level.
One is intended and built in.
The other is not intended and is a byproduct of an admitted problem.
The two are not the same so get over yourself.
Stateman,
Since you seem to be checking this thread, I wanna ask a question.
Now you said you believe in risk vs reward; but in this game sometimes the reward is too small.
If I fight a boss that has tons of HP, resist lethal/smash, and has status effects up the bunghole (constant holds, stuns, etc) then I suggest it would only be fair to give a hefty EXP bonus for fighting such a tough boss.
I think a boss EXP should be based on what powers he's using, instead of level. Because some bosses are easy, and some are hard. But as of now, they all currently give the same EXP. This does not follow risk vs reward at all.
This is WHY people are avoiding groups like carnies, rikiti, malta - because there so damn hard, but the EXP is the same for hunting Nemi's (which will still be easy to hunt even after the changes)
Basically "in a nut shell" people ABSOLUTELY dread, and hate street sweeping - BUT, this is the BEST way of exp in this game, bar none.
So I think a good fix would be make every battle hard, and climatic (which is what you guys are leening towards) - BUt make the EXP reward VERY good (specially vs. touger mobs, carnies, maltas)
This way every battle in the streets will leave everyone drained but the EXP reward will be WELL worth the tough fight.
*this* Is what will make alot of people "up for the challange" if the XP reward is increased.
Because when it comes down to it.. no matter how much content you guys add, - when you "look under the hood" of COH, it's currently just one big EXP grind.
And if you guys keep boosting difficulity, keep giving mobs stuns ands hold, but don't boost EXP for the tedium of fighting them - then to put it plainly: that really sucks.
How about this all enemy groups get defenses vs. AOE ! Wouldn't that work? 
Maybe I'm just different, but the xp is never my main concern. I'll team with 7 other people regularly, and it becomes about being a team more than gaining xp.
That's just one person's opinion, but I figured I'd give the other side have a voice.
Okay, so the Devs are talking about making whites more difficult and worth more experience. That way grouping is more important (since missions are given based on player level)
This seems like a good idea, at least from a balance perspective. Then the Uber Heroes wont be able to alpha reds and purples. This makes sense for a few reasons:
1. Current players at lvl 50 tend to be power gamers or other similarly dedicated players. They can handle a high degree of difficulty.
2. The amount of xp vs. risk when perfoming alphastrike slaughters is disproportionate (toward the xp side).
3. Really the game isn't much of a challenge for a well built character (i.e. built for damage output) after the late 20s.
So the process of buffing the minions sounds like a really good option. There are other things that make it seem less valuable as an answer:
1. People feel much more heroic fighting baddies that are significantly higher than them. Pretty obvious, but let me explain: From a perspective issue, people feel much better doing something that they think is supposed to be tough (fighting reds) and winning, than fighting something they are "supposed to be able to defeat". What this means is that all other things being equal (i.e. mob difficulty) most players will feel more accomplished by defeated a higher level mob, than an equal level one.
2. Eventually the rest of us will catch up to the power gamers. We wont have optimal builds (with proper balance optimum builds shouldn't even be a consideration, but that is another task entirely). We wont neccessarily have the best tactics. We will still want to be able to defeat our opponents. Right now you are talking about changing things that will make the game harder for the dedicated player. That equates to something on the legenadry/supreme diffuclty scale for most average players.
3. Buffing minion HP will make damage even more of a central focus than it already is. I have read a great number of power builds in both the FAQ and AT sections of the forums, at most they usually allow one slot for acc and maybe one slot for endred, most (especially blaster with devices) opt for all 6 damage, leaving acc as a non-factor.
So here i have offered my observations, now i will offer an alternate solution (hopefully easier to code than the other as well). Instead of buffing minion health significantly buff their initial defense against their foes. Have their defense deteriorate after the first 2-3 attacks.
This will end alpha stiking large groups, since chances are most will survive long enough to fight back. This will also create a need for other teamates who could manage aggro/heal/buff/debuff. The only difference would be that heroes could still feel extra heroic by fighting red cons, and that they would need to worry more about accuracy then damage. You could set up the deterioration so that the overall hit ratio was still the same (75% for even con whites) but that initially it is worse (lets say 50%) then as the fight goes on it improves. This will have the added effect of making boss/AV/monster fights more interesting, since it will seem as if the heroes were wearing them down.
Just my two cents