dave_p
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Posts
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Quote:What are your stats? Did you tank all 4 AVs at once? Did you have any buffs from teammates (including Maneuvers) or just plain heals?Originally Posted by sturm375
Did the Tin Mage TF, with my fire/fire/pyre tank, nearly snoozed through the final fight. The only deaths on my team were squishies that though they were melee and got caught in an AoE. Can't save stupid.
btw, my Fire tank does not have near the investment that Severe's tank has, but is at least as tough as a fully SO'd Inv tank, probably more. No purple sets at all, but decent high end IO sets.
My Fire/EM w/softcapped S/L def and around 30% E/N got squished tanking all 4 AVs w/no team buffs. Only 75% S/L resists though--I don't overslot the armors to try to get over 80%. Maybe that was the difference? -
If I didn't have a self-imposed rule of not repeating powers, I would've gone Cold/Son or Cold/Ice. As it is, I went Cold/Dark, and it works out pretty well. Sleet + TT for a soft immob while flopping (and no running out of Sleet), Shields + -to hit from the Dark blasts, etc. Mind you, I'd much rather Heat Loss 11+ mobs then Sleet & (blaster level) Blizzard w/o an end crash (Dark's nuke is pretty meh by comparison).
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Quote:ELM is almost custom made for tanking LR. Not only for the capped En resists and high S/L, but complete immunity to end drain. Even in full Granite + Rooted (so 80%-ish end drain resists), I have to pack a few blue pills in case LR gets in enough lucky Chaingun hits in a row.Originally Posted by slainsteel
The only TF I have seen a tank really have issues with burst damage when really well built, has been the STF - in which case, I've seen elec always do much better because of it's high /elec resistance. Almost every other TF, most well built tanks do about the same (again, with the exception of stone, which does considerably better).
Actually, a lot of Incarnate content may see ELM shining more and more. Well, until they start throwing in more Hydra.
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Quote:I thought the extra +2 shifts in I20 were only applied in Incarnate content? Doubt we'll be seeing grey-conning 50s any time soon.Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
This will be interesting once I20 has been out for a while and we have 50+3s running around. Im sure farming, they will set the difficulty up if they have KB powers but on TFs that are on the lowest setting, Footstomp could suddenly turn into handclap with damage.
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Hmm... I'm trying to think of all my level shifted toons and what powers they have w/KB/KD/KU. The only toons I can think of are my 2 scrappers, Kat/Regen & DB/WP. Both have ET as an epic and they still do KD. Same for powers like Vegn. Slice, which has a .67 mag KB. If my Foot Stomp or Axe powers start doing KB after level shifting, I'm going to be seriously PO'ed.
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W/enough insps & temps, anyone can solo AVs and likely GMs too. Throw enough Shivans, Nukes, etc at a problem and it'll go away. 12 large purp insps (and 4 large greens for backup) and you too can have relatively easy def cap for 12 min.
No insp/temps and you'll have to be selective about which AVs, and pick up Ice Armor and cap your S/L def (so, you know, pick AVs that do S/L damage; I don't think melee def will work because of PBAoE damage). Add Med pool for the odd lucky hit and you're set. If not */EM or */Dev, cap your ranged def instead, spam your immob (or Hover) and blast from range. Your DPS might be a bit lower w/o blapping, but then the incoming damage will be lower too, and you don't have to worry so much about cherry picking your opponents. -
Forgot to mention, I find zero KB, only KD, using something like the epic Energy Torrent (not the blaster kind) on my level shifted scrappers. Haven't shifted my Axe tank or anyone similar, but as long as I'm fighting 50s (whose minions will con blue to me), I experiece no KB. In fact, I made a point to ask ppl w/KD powers, after level shifting, to see if they experienced KB right after I19.5 and no one had any problems. If FS is causing KB to *lvl 50* mobs, I'd /bug it (haven't level-shifted my own WP/SS yet so can't test myself).
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Quote:It sorta drives me nuts about DB's BF+AV chain (a very medium recharge chain) that the 2nd BF drops off just before the last SS and there's nothing you can do about it (outside of giving up AV). I find the better DPS chains just require too much global recharge, and it's hard to fit it in while trying to, say, maintain various def caps (for WP, as an example). Prolly a lot easier w/something like a DB/SR build.Originally Posted by Werner
In a top end hyper-recharge build, Dual Blades beats Claws for DPS, while its medium recharge chain isn't too far behind Claws' hyper-recharge chain. Both will do just fine, though. I think of the sets as equal but different. I only have a Dual Blades at 50, but watching Claws in action, it looks like it could be more fun if you like to include movement as part of your mitigation and attack strategy.
My Claws isn't very high yet--only 25 or so. Seems there's more flexibility in the playstyle, not worrying about combos, and front loading either your highest DPA attacks after Follow Through, or Spin, or I guess a cone later on depending on the situation. -
Quote:Out of curiosity, how's your tank do against Incarnate content? If not in beta, then say the clocks in Tin Mage, or if you tackle all 4 AVs at once at the end (Neuron, Bobcat, 2 Warwalkers)? My softcapped Fire tank gets chewed up pretty badly esp at that last fight (and yeah, I finally "get" to use my T9), but my Stony snoozes through like always.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My Dark Armor tank has no "Tier 9 Survivability Thingy" and tanks all content about equally well. That's because the way I've built, I have no real weaknesses.
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Stone can achieve softcap (and then some) to S/L/E/N/Psi w/some DDR to back it, end drain resist & excellent regen out of Granite. Decent resists to S/L/F/C too. Not as good as Invul against most mobs, but maybe better vs. mixed Psi damage.
I'd also take a softcapped ELA, whose only real hole is tox. High resists everywhere (higher than DA or FA), infinite end, good regen (plus an okay heal). -
Well, hell, my numbers look off too. Assuming Lts or higher, your #s for SK looks exactly right, but Incin goes down too. Updated:
Code:Incin base #s are 15.64*10*10% crit rate.Attack Dam Act DPA ------------------------------------------- Storm Kick 94.967 0.83 89.93 Incinerate 157.964 1.67 85.48
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My spreadsheet, for which I used CoD back when it was way more reliable than Mids', shows:
Code:That's base damage at 50. Note, the Act is raw animation time and the Arcanatime calcs are baked into the final DPA #s. Very close to what Werner posted above. So yeah, SK has the highest DPA attack in scrapperdom. And w/that recharge, you could fit a whole lot of them in a single BU (3, definitely, can you squeeze in 4?). All smashing tho.Attack Name Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA Incinerate 172 1.67 10 6.864 25.06 93.07 Storm Kick 103.2 0.83 6 4.368 23.63 97.73
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Quote:You misread what I wrote. To edify, this is what I said:Originally Posted by BeastMan
I made my FA/IM tank back in the early days of farming and since coming back to COH after a 2 yr hiatus, I've found a use for him again.
I'm assuming you don't have a fire/ice tank? Burn is just perfect right now. Why would you want a fear component? I want to take out my opponents not make them run away. As for air superiority it was more of a less end, rechrg, and a knocking down opponent option. More of the less end if anything. I don't have it on my ice melee toons its just another option if they didn't want FT.
Bolded, mine. Note the past tense; I clearly know that Burn no longer causes fear. Now, that was a response to your writing this:Quote:Your FA/IM combo made more sense when Burn still had its fear component.
My take, and the only one that still makes sense to me, is that you were thinking Burn still caused Fear, and thus it's the only reason to take Ice Melee, for IP. That was a popular combo back in the day. Well, obviously you also know better, so again my question to you is: why do you consider Fiery Aura the only good primary to take with Ice Melee? Or did you mean something else with that quote above?Quote:Blessed be the person to build their ice melee any way they want but the question I ask is why bother pairing it up with any other armor? I'm curious, unless for concept reasons what good is the set without fire armor?
As for FT, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't take the highest DPA attack of a set that's sadly lacking in DPA attacks, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I'm just mainly curious about your odd statement above, about the whole Fire/Ice combo, which is a good combo and all, just not the only Ice Melee combo that makes sense.
(Except you claim you *are* taking FT, not AS, on your Fire/Ice, so really, I'm seeing zero point to your entire line of arguments.
Are you just being contrarian for the hell of it?)
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Quote:That makes no sense. FT has a 1s attack animation. If you're on this uber team, you're mostly worried about not wasting your time on long animating attacks, so why wouldn't you want a high DPA, fast attack that just happens to hold? Air Sup has a *longer* animation than FT. Are you thinking of a different attack? Or are you just saying the recharge is too slow?Originally Posted by BeastMan
My rebuttle to the greatness of FT; if on a team then and a "fire armor" as your primary I won't have time to unleash FT because the mobs "including" bosses are dead. I've ambush farmed with my fire/ice tank and never really have a need for it. The attack chain I use is rdy to rinse and repeat to bother with other attacks. I in no way am saying FT can't be placed in a build its just not of use for my farming tanks needs. Blessed be the person to build their ice melee any way they want but the question I ask is why bother pairing it up with any other armor? I'm curious, unless for concept reasons what good is the set without fire armor?
As for why bother w/Ice Melee w/other than Fiery Aura, first off why Fiery Aura? Anything that FA does for IM, it does for everything else. Same as SD. A more logical question might be why IM period? Your FA/IM combo made more sense when Burn still had its fear component. As to why IM, regardless of the primary, it has the 4th best AoE damage in the tanker sets and arguably the best mitigation. -
Quote:It's actually very close to an earlier incarnation where I had a bit over 38% psi and S/L capped w/1 in range, but I decided I wanted to get my E/N higher. I figure S/L is just not a threat to Invul, and even mixed S/L damage will be covered well enough by the resists (and nearly capped S/L def), but there's more and more pure En damage in this game that I wanted better defenses against. And really, how many times are you going to just have 1 mob in range of Invinc?Originally Posted by Smersh
I poked at it a little to try to make it more what you were looking for - this is just a few minutes of prodding, mind. It's softcapped to S/L with one enemy in range and 39.9% psi defense. It does give up some E/N defense and a smidge of global recharge, though.
Unstoppable, like all crashing T9s, I'm always on the fence about. W/the newer incarnate content, I'm starting to tip towards them more and more. I'm definitely taking all the T9 self-rez powers--RotP's just part of my damn attack chain now.
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First off, gratz on enjoying your realized ELM scrapper.
Quote:I just wanted to touch on your Alpha choice. If you don't have enough global Acc and are not running Tactics and/or FA (which you aren't in your latest build), I suppose Nerve is a good choice. Still, for ELM, I think Spiritual & Cardiac do a whole lot more.Originally Posted by Super Flu
* I am Alpha shifted now with Nerve for Accuracy. Endurance isn't a concern. Extra recharge would be nice but eeks me out 1-2 secs on the three powers I'd want recharge. Damage would be nice but again, it would eek out a week bit. I went with Accuracy (Nerve) b/c my damage bonus is reliant on me hitting folks and my aura for extra damage and end drain needs to hit as much as possible.. Plus KM is weak for to-hit. So I'd get a greater bump in accuracy (since I'm nowhere near ED) in nine powers and a 1% def bump with the 4th tier incarnate (only first tier now). It seemed like a no-brainer to me.
First off, Nerve's +def only affects your base def powers, not set bonuses, so for you, that's like Weave, Maneuvers & CJ. Even for a def-based toon (I calculated the bonuses for my Cold defender's shields), they're depressingly tiny, as you already acknowledged, so really, that's negligible. Again, if Acc is your focus, Nerve is fine.
Now consider Cardiac. Sure, you don't need more end w/PS, but the +resist would benefit ELM almost more than any other set, since ELM is purely resist-based, and has some of the highest base numbers around, better than Fire or Dark. Ppl going for S/L resist caps w/ELM invariably go Cardiac.
Then Spiritual, which also offers more heal bonuses, so when Energize is on (and would also recharge more often w/Spiritual), not only would the 1-time heal go up, your regen rate would also benefit nicely. Dunno if KM has any stuns, but if it did, you'd benefit on that front too. And honestly, there's just no such thing as too much recharge.
As for Muscular, as of right now, it's the weakest Alpha slot, but come I20, it's the only thing that can boost your Judgment nukes. And you don't even have to go all the way to Ultra rare to max its benefits, since ED won't be an issue. I'm actually going this way w/most of my newly minted 50s (I already have 11 either already at or very close to the ultra rare, either Cardiac or Spiritual--the 2 best of I19, IMO--and I'm not about to start over w/Musc w/them).
So, I'm not saying Nerve is a bad pick for you, but I don't think it's quite cut & dried as you may initially have thought. Just something to consider. -
Hey, Smersh, I think you were asking for my Invul/Fire build a while back and I kinda forgot about it. It's the one w/either the 36.1% Psi def or 32.4%, but w/S/L capped w/1 in range of Invinc. Sorta forgot about it at the time, but figured I'd offer it up for comparison/criticisms, etc. It's still under construction so I'd appreciate any other critiques too. Flip the slottings of Unyielding & Tough to see the 2 different def builds. Fairly inexpensive too--I think you can keep it under 1B easily. Let me know what you (and anyone else) think..
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Fused Fury: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(5), ImpArm-ResDam(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(42)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 2: Resist Physical Damage -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(3), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(3)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal(15), Dct'dW-Rchg(36), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 6: Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 8: Unyielding -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(13), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(13), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(15)
Level 10: Combustion -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(21), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(23), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), Sciroc-Dam%(25)
Level 12: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(36), ImpArm-ResDam(36), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(42)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(27), LkGmblr-Def(33)
Level 20: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn(A), RechRdx-I(37), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(45)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(25), LkGmblr-Def(27)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def(34)
Level 26: Resist Energies -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(34), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(29), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(31), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), Sciroc-Dam%(31)
Level 30: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), GftotA-Run+(33), GftotA-Def(37)
Level 32: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(40), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(40), GSFC-Build%(40)
Level 35: Incinerate -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(A)
Level 44: Char -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(46), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(46), BasGaze-Slow%(50)
Level 47: Fire Blast -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Dev'n-Hold%(50)
Level 49: Unstoppable -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(19), Numna-Heal(46)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(9), P'Shift-EndMod(17), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(19)
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First, please check out my guide on Ice Melee in my sig. Understand, I wrote it after years of playing it on my own Stone/Ice. You need to take Frost & Freezing Touch way earlier (like as soon as they're available) and drop GIS. There's a thread on why GIS sucks going on right now.
Second, you may also want to consider a Stone tank, esp. one w/Ice Patch, as not needing Granite all that often. You're already taking Maneuvers; consider also Tough & Weave in addition to your other armors, so take Rock, Crystals, Minerals and even Brimstone. You can end up with your S/L/E/N/Psi defenses softcapped outside of Granite, which means your recharge & damage are undiminshed, though your run speed will be even worse in Rooted than Granite. You may have to make some compromises w/your budget though.
My own Stone/Ice can tank all the end-game TFs w/o using Granite once with very few exceptions--tower buffed LR, the hydra in Apex, Veng-fueled Bobcat, that's kinda about it. Rom, Reich, all those guys are pushovers out of Granite. And at the end of the day, you still have Granite to fall back on when you happen to get in a spot of trouble. -
Quote:Pretty much this. I was surprised by how fast my IO'ed up Fire tank got torn up in Tin Mage last night, but we had zip for buffs or even debuffs on the team (well, we had a VEAT, so improved Maneuvers, but that was it). That same Fire tank can absolutely breeze through most ITF, LG, hell even Apex runs w/minimal support, but for TM, he seems to need a bit more support. I know I can sleepwalk though every phase of TM w/my Stony (tho I usually pop Granite for the end fight).Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
With a good team your fire tank will shine. With a mediocre team your fire tank will do poorly. (I tanked the ITF on my Kin/Energy Armor brute as the only melee before and it isnt even level 50 yet.) I have a multi billion build on my fire tank and it still gets torn to shreds at times. That is why I created my stone tank.
Oh, and DDR wouldn't really have helped last night either.
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I love using extended cones on my En/En, but I chose the Elec APP instead of one of the PPPs. Yes, Leviathan has 2 cones, but Static Discharge has a 12s base recharge, which I have down to 4.4s, same as ET. Very easy to do BU > ET > SD > Aim > ET > SD pretty much non-stop, all from a 70 range. Maybe the PPP cones synch up better w/AR's cones, but for En's ET, Static Discharge is about perfect.
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And this is why we can do funky things w/HOs, correct?
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Are the PI Monster Island GMs all 50 or are they a range of 40-50?
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My first toon ever, rolled on launch, and my global namesake, was an En/En. I finally hit 50 w/him this past week. My Fire/Cold, Arch/Fire & Ice/MM had all surpassed him, and are more fun to play. I recently got my En/En groove on (to finally push for 50) by leveraging Boost Range w/my cones (picked up an APP cone) and being able to blast away from silly ranges.
En/Dev... my god, I couldn't deal w/that combo. No BU, Boost Range, blapping abilities (which is another thing my En/En does well)... I can't advocate deleting your "main", but I'd seriously consider "retiring" him on an off server.
Or... wait for I20 where everyone's going to be on more equal footing. Pick up Musculature for your Alpha, then take the Pyro Judgment slot, and nuke w/the best of them even w/o BU (of course that also means tanks & defenders will be nuking as well as you). Not sure how well Dev will be leveraging those new Incarnate slots (Musc. boosted mine field + Judgment = win? Dev's slower playstyle may sorta work out for Judgment's unenhanceable recharge), but just the fact that Judgment won't be affected by BU closes the gap bet. Dev & everyone else. -
Reread your original post--yeah, I completely misread what you were trying to say. In fact, considering your usual reasoned posting habits, I was kinda confused as to your position.
I took a look at the -rech & slow numbers too for GIS to see if there were *any* arguments to make for that power (kinda like w/the Gauntlet thing). Nope, tied for best, but not nearly enough to make it worthwhile. Just utterly useless, really. Still, I'd rather they up FF's #s instead of GIS since you're forced to take FF and not GIS, and w/Bruising, FF is sorta required to be added to your chain.
Having said that, I think Ice Melee is relatively balanced around the good AoE & excellent mitigation. I'd far prefer the Devs to look at like Energy Melee (once great, now merely good ST, middling mitigation, awful AoEs) first. -
Quote:Hmm... I was killing GMs w/my Fire/Rad doing around 258 "effective" DPS, but that figure was calculated using pylons and includes debuffs & -regen. That prolly gets screwed up w/GMs, also depending on the native level of the GM.Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
To kill a GM, you need at least 300 DPS I think it is.
But yeah, that 100 DPS figure was meant for AVs. Sorry for the confusion.