Werner
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Posts
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I agree with Sailboat's recommendations. Katana/Willpower as a classic easy leveling survivability toon, and Broad Sword/Shield Defense for the extra damage output and Shield Charge.
I tend to level on the cheap, in the sense of being affordable with what the characters make as they level, even if I tend to send a few tens of millions to each of my new characters just so that it's never a concern.
Here's my leveling build on my Broad Sword/Shield Defense. Technically, this is probably my mid 30s respec build, as I tend to fix mistakes and spec into my final chain in the mid 30s (edit: yeah, you wouldn't want to live with only Hack and Parry for that long). This build probably isn't optimal because I don't optimize my leveling builds. I just play. But I have a very good grasp of high end building, so my leveling building is probably at least not horrible. One questionable decision is that I double-stacked Parry in my chain, which is unnecessary, but I didn't want to worry about recharge, and a two-Parry chain has a low recharge requirement. Main problem is that it is from before inherent fitness, so you have additional power picks to play with (edit: which you should probably blow on an additional attack or two while leveling).
Don't pay attention to the levels things were slotted. This is an export from in game, and the game doesn't remember, so it's just assigning the slots sequentially.
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Quote:Wall of text with my contributions to previous discussions of this topic, not really well organized. Apologies. If you don't want to read it, my conclusion is that Achilles' Heel is usually (but not always) a poor choice in an AoE.Originally Posted by Kangstor
-I totally forgot about -res procs and it seems achilles' heel isn't unique so it can be sloted for two or three powers probably into Gambler's cut because it will be the most I used and in lotus drop because if it kicks in everything around me gets -res.
Quote:Lets say you're surrounded by five even level minions and you use a PBAoE with an Achilles' Heel proc in it. With a 20% chance of firing, on average it will hit one of those minions. Achilles' Heel is basically a buff – attacks on that minion over the next ten seconds will do 20% more damage. So we can consider that additional damage to be the “damage” that the proc does. A level 50 minion has 430 hit points. Let's say that the attack with the proc did 190 hit points of damage, leaving the minion with 240 hit points. And lets say that you DO manage to kill the minion in the next ten seconds. The 240 hit points of damage required to kill the minion can be considered to be 200 base hit points of damage, plus 40 hit points of damage from the proc. So what's the MAXIMUM damage that the proc can do? It would be in an AoE that does NO damage itself, so that the minion still has all 430 hit points of damage. And then you'd need to finish off the minion in the next 10 seconds, which pretty much means finishing off the whole crowd in 10 seconds since I don't think there's a way to identify who got hit with the proc, or at least not to do it quickly. You would then attack the minion for exactly 359 points of damage, and the proc would do the other 359 * 20% = 71 points of damage.
So the proc does 71 damage to an even level minion under nearly IDEAL circumstances –your AoE does no damage at all, and you finish off the crowd in the next 10 seconds.
What about a regular damage proc? That's a lot simpler. 20% chance of doing 71.8 damage.
So when fighting minions, even under nearly ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc basically only pulls even with a regular old damage proc. In practice, it'll be way behind.
What about lieutenants? Well, you won't be surrounded by just five lieutenants and nothing else, and good luck finishing five lieutenants off in 10 seconds except with an AoE monster, but sure, let's say that everything comes together just perfectly. A level 50 lieutenant has 805 hit points. So you're doing 671 damage, and the proc does 671 * 20% = 134 damage to finish off the lieutenant. Then yes, under these even more ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc will do somewhat more damage than a regular old damage proc. But taking into account that not everyone's level 50, that you won't often find yourself in this situation, that your AoE actually does damage, and that sometimes you won't finish off the guy that got hit with the proc in the next 10 seconds, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily better in practice. I'd probably still recommend a regular damage proc as being more likely to do more damage on average, and to do it sooner since it takes effect on that attack rather than on potential future attacks. But even if we take the 20% chance of 134 damage at face value, what about a purple proc? That's a 33% chance of 107.1 damage = 35.343 damage on average, compared to our 20% * 134 = 26.8 damage on average. So the purple proc is still significantly better than Achilles' Heel against lieutenants even under near ideal circumstances.
So we pretty much need to get up to boss level before the Achilles' Heel starts to really beat out the alternatives. And while you might be using AoEs on a boss farm, you're not going to be finishing off that crowd of bosses in 10 seconds unless you're on a big AoE team. So I suppose I could add a qualifier of “unless you're AE boss farming on a big AoE team” to my advice to skip Achilles' Heel procs on AoEs, but that's seems unnecessary, that being such an exceptional circumstance.
So the basic use of Achilles' Heel procs is for taking down single hard targets. It's a single target because you don't usually find or take out multiple hard targets fast enough (with some exceptions on some teams). And its a hard target like a boss or above because only those have enough hit points for the damage from the Achilles' Heel to add up.
Now, I DO see some logic in putting it in AoEs for another situation – attacking the boss, but using an AoE because there are other enemies around. The primary target is the boss, so it's pretty much like putting it in a single target attack at that point, which is to say that it is worthwhile. However, what percentage of time do you use your AoEs that way specifically, and what percentage of time do you use them on targets other than bosses? Generally speaking, I think AoEs are largely used as minion munchers. As such, the Achilles' Heel procs are usually going to be outclassed by other options, often significantly outclassed.
REVISION: If the AoE has a regular damage proc, it is all but guaranteed to do full damage, because most AoEs don't do enough damage to kill the minions in that one hit, even when the proc hits. You could always be finishing off something with an AoE, I suppose, in which case a regular proc wouldn't hit for full damage. But if you're finishing off something with AoE, the Achilles' Heel DEFINITELY isn't helping, since it just sets you up for future damage. So we're talking about that initial hit. With an Achilles' Heel, some of the extra damage buff will almost always be wasted on blowthrough damage. In other words, you're not going to do exactly 359 damage, and the proc does the other 71. You're just as likely to have your last attack do blowthrough damage, in which case the proc also isn't contributing as much.,
REVISION: For the AoE attack on bosses, not particularly useful because your single target chain should have a bunch of Achilles' Heels, and stacking makes each additional one less useful. Depends on primary, of course.
REVISION: More useful on teaming than I'd been thinking. Basically, yes, it's wasted on minions and to lesser extent lieutenants. But it's helpful on the bosses. And I suspect that on an average team, bosses are what live the longest. They're therefore the targets most in need of taking down more quickly to keep things moving. So even if the average damage of the resistance debuff is lower, if it preferentially targets bosses for extra damage, that can be a good thing. More details follow:
REVISION: Either I'm completely missing your point, or you're completely missing mine. So I'll try again taking a slightly different approach.
You and your full team encounter a full spawn with 2 bosses, 3 lieutenants and 5 minions. You get to the team first and launch your AoE, which does no damage of its own other than the proc. You and the team then wipe out the entire spawn in the next 10 seconds. This situation is the best possible scenario for the debuff compared to straight damage procs. Taking the average of the procs across many such spawns.
Achilles' Heel: 86 * 2 bosses + 27 * 2 lieutenants + 14 x 5 minions = 296 damage
Damage Proc: 14 * 10 mobs = 140 damage
Purple Proc: 35 * 10 mobs = 350 damage
That's your ideal. Now maybe this is what you mean when you say that looking at max damage (I assume you meant damage instead of usage) isn't the ideal. I would argue here that even though the purple proc does more overall damage, the Achilles' Heel is more useful, because it preferentially targets the bosses for additional damage. If bosses are what typically survive the longest in large spawns on large teams (as I assume to be the case), then this preferential damage will speed things up slightly on average. So I would argue here that the Achilles' Heel is better than the purple proc for this situation.
But this situation was an ideal situation. The first obvious deviation from this ideal is that your own AoE attack does damage. Just to have a number, I'm going to use my The Lotus Drops from my Katana/Dark. Looks like it does 277 damage under Build Up. That seems reasonable to use. Now everyone has fewer hit points for the proc to help with. Now it looks like this:
Achilles' Heel: 76 * 2 bosses + 18 * 2 lieutenants + 4 * 5 minions = 208 damage
Looking worse. Damage on bosses is still good, so maybe it's still better than a purple proc. But getting more realistic, hopefully the tank is leading the charge, and is probably using AoE to help get control of the situation. And others are probably itching to do damage as well, so you aren't likely first AoE every time. So on average, they'll have taken somewhat more than that 277 damage before your debuff kicks in. Let's say they've taken 600 points of damage - the minions are all dead, and the lieutenants are hurting.
Achilles' Heel: 66 * 2 bosses + 7 * 2 lieutenants = 146 damage
But maybe you're not fighting +0. Maybe you're fighting +2. Do normal teams carve through a +2 spawn with bosses in ten seconds? Eh, let's say they do. Your 600 points of damage is now only 480 points, and the other procs are at reduced damage:
Achilles' Heel: 70 * 2 bosses + 11 * 2 lieutenants = 162 damage
Damage Proc: 11 * 10 mobs = 110 damage
Purple Proc: 28 * 10 mobs = 280 damage
And so it goes. My general observation would be that the purple proc usually simply does more damage. A further advantage of this is that the damage is all up front, so is more useful for mitigation through such things as finishing off minions or lieutenants more quickly while you pound on the bosses. But the Achilles' Heel is useful for its preferential targeting of bosses for additional damage during the course of the fight. This is less useful up front, in mitigation, and does less damage overall. But if you can take the bosses out that much faster, you should be able to finish the fight that much faster, as bosses probably tend to last the longest.
Coming clean, my Fire/Shield has a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Fire Sword Circle. Why? Well, mainly because he already has the purple proc. But I'm also banking on the preferential damaging of bosses to hopefully speed my progress through spawns solo. And because the toon has serious AoE, so is more likely to get at least SOME damage from the proc on things other than his primary target (bosses). And because Fire Sword Circle is part of his "single" target attack chain.
Now, having covered all that, I perhaps still simply don't get what you're trying to say, but I'll try. I think you're trying to say that the average damage done, and when it is done, isn't what is most relevant. What is most relevant is how likely the proc is to save time/attacks/endurance.
You are correct! But that doesn't make the Achilles' Heel any better compared to its rivals. Ignoring WHEN the damage is done, the chance of some damage saving an attack (and thus time and endurance) down the line is basically a direct correlation with the damage done. This is all about the law of averages. Even ONE more point of damage might (though it's very unlikely) save an attack. Your AoE does 277 damage. Your teammate's AoE does 152 points of damage. The minion has 1 hit point left. A proc that does one hit point of damage may save an attack. How likely is this scenario? Not likely, but only because it's a single hit point. A proc that does 107.1 hit points, though, is MUCH more likely to save an attack. I'd say 107.1 times as likely on average as a first pass.
Now that's just minions. The Achilles' Heel is significantly more likely to save an attack on a boss if it fires, but that is already reflected in my numbers, in the way that I calculate significantly more damage for the Achilles' Heel on bosses than on minions.
Now what about the idea of damage NOW instead of damage in the form of a buff? Damage NOW is more likely to save an attack. The trivial case of this is when damage now finishes off the enemy. A buff would require hitting the enemy again. What about our boss situation, first part of the fight? Damage now will hardly make a dent. But so that we're comparing apples to apples, let's say the damage proc does 300 damage now as opposed to 300 damage in the form of buffs to later attacks. Well, damage now is damage in the bank. It applies even if the boss runs off around a corner. It applies even if the team doesn't finish the boss off in the next ten seconds. It may not be MUCH more likely to save an attack, but it is MORE likely, as long as the average damage (as I calculated above) is equal. Now, the average damage of an Achilles' Heel on a boss actually dwarfs the average damage of regular or purple procs. But THAT is the reason it is better on bosses, not some advantage to delaying damage. And that damage difference is already accounted for in everything I've calculated.
Jesus why did I write all that?
REVISION: What hasn't been quantified is what happens if the attack cycles again in less than ten seconds. Since the debuffs don't stack, the second attack gives you less damage. This is a point in favor of damage procs, not debuff procs. For example, lets say the attack cycles in five seconds. Every other attack's buff can be considered to do 0 damage. It's slightly better than that if we include the chance of missing, but doubling the attack rate doesn't double the average debuff, it barely changes it. (edit: Wait, that sounds wrong. There's a very good chance that when your second attack procs on a target, your first didn't on that target. It won't double the average debuff, but it should be close. And I know that from my DPS calculations, so what was I thinking here?) And while we're on the subject of not stacking, my understanding is that the debuffs don't even stack from Achilles' Heels being used by your teammates. Straight damage from procs, of course, does "stack". Another point in favor of straight damage procs.
REVISION: Clarify that you aren't saying that the less damage an AoE does, the better. Obviously, the more damage it does, the better. But the more damage it does, the less the Achilles' Heel proc contributes.
REVISION: State clearly that this same argument applies to the Fury of the Gladiator proc. -
Quote:Not the normal chain. Midnight Grasp -> Siphon Life -> Smite. THAT requires 455% recharge.Originally Posted by Santorican
I thought MG required only 234% in order to run that chain...
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So, kind of like some additional animation options for Super Strength or Martial Arts?
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Quote:I think that's a legitimate point, though limited by all the various ways we have now of "buying" items. You can earn and buy things with regular merits. You can convert regular merits to alignment merits and buy even shinier things with alignment merits. You can play the game any way you want and buy things with influence, since nearly all aspects of the game rain influence. You can play the game in certain ways to get the actual drops yourself. Some of these ways DO take significantly longer than other ways, though, so I can understand how you might feel like you're being forced to play a certain way.Originally Posted by Myrmydon
For me, I hate the perception I have of feeling like I have to play a certain enforced way (tip missions, market madness) to get a certain result rather than being able to play the game the way I like (teaming, exemplaring and running story arcs) to get the result.
If it's any consolation, I feel the same way about incarnate levels and forced teaming. Well, it is forced in I19 if you want to advance, but I hear rumor you can do it solo in I20 - it just takes this side of forever. But hey, I just said I like slow advancement, and it looks like solo incarnate will be really, really slow, so maybe I should be happy. *chuckle* -
It needs 295% recharge, which is to say 195% recharge enhancement. You're probably both saying the same thing.
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Quote:This.Originally Posted by Roderick
If you want to just walk in to a room and beat up a million bad guys, go play Gauntlet. If you want to advance and improve your character, be it through levels, equipment, or improving skills/abilities, that's when you choose to play an RPG.
CoH is an RPG. I want my character development and advancement, thanks.
Though to be fair, I doubt very many people want to create a new character and immediately be purpled out. Maybe some PvPers (certainly not all), but that seems a legitimate issue there, because some want CoH to be more like a first person shooter with equal and near immediate access to the best equipment so that it is mere skill that determines the outcome. In the PvE game, though, I suspect almost everyone likes character advancement. The argument is more about how fast this character advancement should be. Some people like it fast, some medium, and some slow. I'm in the slow camp. But there's nothing strictly wrong with the fast camp, other than that they never seem to recognize that other camps are legitimate. Kind of drives me nuts. (Edit: Mind you, the fast camp may feel exactly the same way about the slow camp.) -
To be honest, not much works against Vanguard. They're just nasty.
Recharge is still top priority, with defense a strong second. Extra regeneration is about your last priority since you'll be swimming in it regardless.
The build's a bit of a mess. Your defense is low if that's what you were focusing on. Divine Avalanche should be slotted as an attack first, defense second if at all (I'd typically go with a Mako's Bite set), as it should be used in your attack chain. Your attack chain should be:
Divine Avalanche -> Gambler's Cut -> Golden Dragonfly -> Gambler's Cut -> Divine Avalanche -> Gambler's Cut -> Soaring Dragon -> Gambler's Cut
Note the lack of Sting of the Wasp. Skip it. It's not that it's a bad power; it's just that it's not a power that's used in the best chains.
If you want to take on any hard targets, Gambler's Cut should have an Achilles' Heel proc in it. Melee defense bonuses are a low priority since Divine Avalanche takes care of that for the most part. That also means that The Lotus Drops and Golden Dragonfly are poorly-slotted. Eradication is good here if you're not springing for Armageddon in Golden Dragonfly, though I'm sure there are other good options as well.
Physical Perfection is probably largely wasted on a Regen. Nice if you can fit it in, but it typically wouldn't take priority over, say, Combat Jumping, maybe Hover, maybe Maneuvers, things that help you in your secondary goal of more defense.
I'd want more recharge in Build Up.
Don't put the Miracle unique in Instant Healing. I believe it doesn't work as a set bonus, but instead as something that fires when you fire the power, and lasts for two minutes (in a toggle, it would fire every ten seconds, effectively making it permanent). If you're using Instant Healing routinely, you'll get some benefit out of it, but not full benefit.
You don't need to go for quite so many hit point bonuses because Dull Pain should be up any time it matters, and with the accolades and Dull Pain up, you're over the hit point cap. If you don't have all the hit point accolades, though, you're probably fine.
Integration provides more regeneration than Fast Healing provides more regeneration than Health. So for the heal enhancement itself, enhance them in that order. In other words, at least swap the enhancement between Fast Healing and Integration.
Moment of Glory is a key power. Get more recharge in it.
Consider Soul Mastery as your epic pool to pick up Shadow Meld. It's like a second, admittedly less powerful Moment of Glory. High recharge characters can go Shadow Meld -> Moment of Glory -> Brief Pause -> Shadow Meld -> Longer Pause, allowing them to have soft capped defense much of the time. Heals and other tools fill in the gaps. And not that you want to be spamming Shadow Meld since it has such a long animation time, but it's nice to have available when you really need something. -
I have a Super Strength/Willpower at 50, but I don't know the numbers or what it's capable of fully IO'd (mine is not). I just know it was fun to level, and I love love love Foot Stomp.
Dark Melee/Shield Defense is an excellent AV soloer. And I *think* someone posted about soloing the ITF on one, and pre level shift. Might have even been no temps, no insps. I don't really remember, though. -
I'm going with Nemesis plot. Go kick that guy in the face for me.
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Quote:Yes, devs routinely mess things up. However, for something like how rare a particular drop should be, how much time it should take to earn, there's no right and wrong. There's only how often YOU want them to drop and how often Billy Joe Jim Bob wants them to drop. Endless treadmills are a staple of MMOs. If not for the very rarest of recipes, what do you want to endlessly run on the treadmill for? Or if you want everything to come easily, just play the 1-50 game. It comes pretty easily.Originally Posted by Myrmydon
You do know that game designers are not infallible, right? They can be (and are) wrong about ideas just like the rest of us. This is one of them.
I have no problem with there being shinies in a game that are very, very time consuming to get, particularly if they are generally only marginally better than alternatives (and often not even that). I also don't want the devs following the market to decide how difficult things should be to get, such as in the case of the junk PvP recipies.
The Steadfast Protection +3% is better than the Gladiator's Armor +3% because it also enhances the power. But I see no real problem with it being common as dirt and the Gladiator's Armor being ultra rare and influence-cap-busting expensive. Both things can comfortably exist in the same game. -
Here's the effect on damage of a single attack from both -resist procs, assuming three attacks with the first proc have fired in the past 10.25 seconds and two attacks with the second proc have fired in the past 10.25 seconds. Also assuming 95% chance to hit.
*(100%+(100%-81%^3)*20%)*(100%+(100%-81%^2)*20%)
If you don't want to get down to the attack level, then just average out how many times each proc has a chance to fire in 10.25 seconds, plug those numbers in (does not have to be a whole number), and multiply your DPS by the result. It's not AS accurate, but it should be very close most of the time. -
Quote:They are no longer enhanceable, so it no longer matters where you put them, at least from that perspective.Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel
I remember when Physical Perfection first came out, slotting end enhancers boosted these procs as well. Is this still the case?
If not, how do you all recommending Health/PP with the 2 procs? -
Quote:Nope. Kind of middle of the road, at least at the high end. Not sure about leveling and the like.Originally Posted by Pinny
isn't claws like the best DPS set?
In a top end hyper-recharge build, Dual Blades beats Claws for DPS, while its medium recharge chain isn't too far behind Claws' hyper-recharge chain. Both will do just fine, though. I think of the sets as equal but different. I only have a Dual Blades at 50, but watching Claws in action, it looks like it could be more fun if you like to include movement as part of your mitigation and attack strategy. -
Quote:Can't. I respec'd out of a 52+ Enzyme recently and tried to email it to myself to put in a character on another server. No can do. Well, as of a couple months or so ago, but I doubt it's changed.Originally Posted by je_saist
To try and make my point here, consider that while you can combine non-invention origin enhancements, you cannot (couldn't? I can't check right now) email enhancments that are +'d.
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Hmmm, maybe you're right then. I figured I was doing something weird, but maybe not so much.
How about:
Cleaving Blow - acc/dam, dam/end, dam/rech
Fury of the Gladiator - dam/end/rech, acc/end/rech, acc/dam/end/rech
66% accuracy
98% damage
86% endurance reduction
1% recovery
1.25% energy/negative defense
1.89% fire/cold resistance
mag 3 knockback protection
Eh, probably not. Still, good endurance reduction, but I'll burn endurance for better bonuses. -
Quote:Hmmm, looks like you're right. Storm Kick has an increased chance of critical, but not the 25% that Mids' gives it. In game info shows 10% minions, 15% lieutenants and up. I always count the lieutenants and up, so 82.58 * 1.15 = 94.967 damage in (roundup(0.83/.132)+1)*.132 = 1.056 seconds, so 89.93 DPS?Originally Posted by Elfis_Presley
Storm kick is one of the attacks Mid's gets wrong. Not as wrong as the ancillary sets, but a little wrong. Mids counts an extra critical damage chance. Still good dpa but not the best.
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Quote:I haven't looked into the I20 powers at all. I tend to wait until things are live before thinking about them. Yes, defense debuffs are by far my biggest practical weakness on my Katana/Dark. However, since I don't know what my other options are, I can't say that I'd take a debuff resistance power. Not sure there's anything I want more on that character than some decent DDR, though.Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
I wonder... Werner, will you be getting the Debuff Resist Destiny power for your Katana/Dark Armor character? I seem to remember you saying that Defense Debuff was a real killer for that character. With that out of the way, you'd be unstoppable!
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If you set up Mids' to use Arcanatime as animation time, then display Damage / Anim, I think it gives you DPS as would happen in an attack chain. Storm Kick is reported at 97.75, Incinerate at 93.1, though I'm not certain they're handling the DoT correctly. And yeah, with a quick glance through all the primaries, it looks like Storm Kick wins. Mind you, that's unenhanced, no Build Up, and so on.
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I like mag 12 knockback protection if I can get it. I settled for less on my current build, and very rarely get knocked back. With Hover, I'm happy with the trade offs I made, but I still hate those very rare occasions when I see myself do an air flip, since I know I could have prevented it.
I have Eradications in Death Shroud for the set bonuses, but I'm built around the very rare Cardiac and positional defense. There are usually better choices for most builds.
I agree with others on focusing on smashing/lethal defense instead of positional. It should be easier to cover more incoming attacks that way. -
Yay! Another 0.06% defense is mine! Mwhahahahahaha!
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Quote:You've got mail. Or some lucky ******* does if I messed up.Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Sure Not like I need another 300m I could probably get if I waited longer. and at least here I know it goes to good use.
And yes, I promise it will go to good use, in this case working on that gap between 44.84% melee defense and the soft cap. Important stuff. -
Quote:So did I win? I gots cash on hand if the offer is acceptable.Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Your last bid was lower than Werner's bid.
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Good point about teaming. When I ran Apex on my Katana/Dark, I think I had 35% extra defense from team buffs when we stuck together. All that fell apart when we hit Battle Maiden and scattered to the four winds screaming all the way. I suspect that was a suboptimal strategy for beating her.
One thing I like about Dark Armor is that it has very good resists across the board, but nothing capped. So an orange or some team buffs actually makes a significant difference in how much damage I take. And if there are defense debuffs, team defense buffs also make a significant difference in how much damage I take. Not that I ever team, but when I do... -
Quote:Mmmm, yes, a soft cap build, like we've all been running for years now.Originally Posted by DarkPaladinLoki
My DM/SR can stand up to everything except for Rularuu Eyeballs and those cotton pickin' Quartz pets. Even Battle Maiden isn't that big a threat when I switch to kiting with MG and SL.
I'll just leave this here..
Look, I'm not saying that the Elude/Hibernate approach is CURRENTLY more survivable than the soft cap approach. I'm saying that if to hit goes through the roof, THEN it would be more survivable. That was pretty much the assumption made in this thread. Yes, an extra 50% defense is meaningless most of the time today. So as is, Elude/Hibernate is at best competitive for survivability, and at the cost of 30 seconds of down time every few minutes.