Thinking about a new scrapper for level 50 incarnate content
By
DarkPaladinLoki,
Posted on: 2011-03-22 19:15 in Scrappers
I think you're just paranoid, yes. 
Also, if it turns out you're right that the sky is falling (higher to hit, more defense debuffs), then it isn't Shield Defense and Super Reflexes that will suffer. It's the other sets that have done everything they can to get to the soft cap, and just can't go any higher.
In other words, whether you're right or not about what's coming, I'd stick with your DM/SD. There is room in your build to add a lot of defense if that becomes necessary. It will involve compromises, but it can be done.
But yes, something with soft capped smashing/lethal/energy/negative defenses and Willpower levels of resistance, hit points and regeneration should be just as sturdy against normal content. Defense debuffs will be a problem, though, more so than on your Shield Defense.
If I bought into the assumption that higher to hit will be the norm, and that we won't get similar defense buffs, my choices for that content would probably be Broad Sword/Shield Defense or Dark Melee/Super Reflexes. Conveniently, I have both at 50, but neither have up to date builds.
Also, while I poo-pooed the idea at first, you can take a Spines and probably Claws Super Reflexes and pile on so much recharge that the down time on Elude fits inside the up time on Hibernate. I wouldn't want to twiddle my thumbs for 30 seconds, but if you think you need 100% positional defense with 95% defense debuff resistance, it's possible.
For now, I'm sticking with my Katana/Dark. I don't think the sky is falling, and if it does start falling, I expect to get falling sky repellent in future content. The sets are nicely balanced now. They'll be making things more difficult, but I wouldn't expect them to do it in a way that throws off that balance. Well, OK, I expect some problems and rebalancing. But I don't expect a permanent situation where one combination is THE answer. I expect all combinations to remain viable, and the best combination to change a bit from issue to issue.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Most excellent. Thanks Werner! I shall soldier on with Virya
To be honest the only thing I think that would cause me to really start to question a full reroll is if they remove the ability for SD to cap DDR using hami-o tricks. Although I suppose if that ever comes to pass we're all in trouble because we won't be able to use enzymes in ways they weren't meant to be used.
Which server is your Kat/DA on? I'd love to see one in action.
Quote:
My Katana/Dark is on Victory, but as far as seeing it in action, these are videos from the I17 version of my build:|
Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad
To be honest the only thing I think that would cause me to really start to question a full reroll is if they remove the ability for SD to cap DDR using hami-o tricks. Although I suppose if that ever comes to pass we're all in trouble because we won't be able to use enzymes in ways they weren't meant to be used.
Which server is your Kat/DA on? I'd love to see one in action. |
Double Rikti War Zone ChallengeAnd yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the capped DDR on Shield Defense goes away. There are actually two bugs involved as best I can tell, fixing either one of which would probably remove the capped DDR on most Shield Defense builds. But maybe they'll never be fixed, or they're considered features instead of bugs. I don't pay attention to or try to guess dev intent. I just play the game as it actually exists.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Quote:
Wait, what? Wouldn't you have to be the tiniest smidge short of the recharge cap for that, or did I miss something?
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Originally Posted by Werner
Also, while I poo-pooed the idea at first, you can take a Spines and probably Claws Super Reflexes and pile on so much recharge that the down time on Elude fits inside the up time on Hibernate. I wouldn't want to twiddle my thumbs for 30 seconds, but if you think you need 100% positional defense with 95% defense debuff resistance, it's possible.
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Quote:
Yes, you DO in fact need to be the tiniest smidge short of the recharge cap for that. What I didn't realize, and I don't think most people realize, is that I19 makes that POSSIBLE. So that we're not discussing hypotheticals, here's the build. It isn't mine; it's Murdok's. Well, very close to Murdok's live build, just with a few tweaks by me (and adding billions and billions to the cost).|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Wait, what? Wouldn't you have to be the tiniest smidge short of the recharge cap for that, or did I miss something?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Holy Speed Boost, Batman!
That is sick in more than one way.
I just replaced claws for spines and indeed it works as well. (One thing, the Recharge IO in Hibernate doesn't really do anything, since you can't use the power a second time until the no-phase period is up).
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When the defense is stripped away WP is actually pretty squishy to anything not smashing/lethal. The regen and extra health, of course, are nice - rivaling Instant Healing as a toggle - but I'd guess that in a situation where things are going to hit you as if your defense isn't even there an /Inv or /Elec would hold out longer. By a few seconds.
Like Werner I can't see them arbitrarily invalidating several armor sets. I would guess if anything they're trying with the new content to bring softcapped defense back down to resistance set levels of survival. A good non-tanker resistance score is usually between 40 to 60%. Softcapped 'equals' 90%. 15% under softcap (enemies with 65% to hit, which is what the new DE and Battle Maiden have I think) is back to that 60%.
Of course it kind of pooches non-softcapped defenses (even these days not everyone uses inventions for set bonuses). It also kind of pooches said resistance sets by increasing the incoming damage they need to resist dramatically: An /elec facing Nemesis (no -def) lasts a lot longer than an /elec facing Cimerorans (oh god everything hits me on a 2!).
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I'm thinking that invuln will be the bomb then, since you can get softcap, resists, and a heal.
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
I would interpret the recent changes as nerfs to passive mitigation in general. Resistance sets have not been really spared (Energized nanite halberd, go!) In the specific case of invuln, it only started getting competitive with things like WP after the buff to typed defense.
I actually wonder what would happen with Hibernate and the Elude crash, assuming you hit Hibernate before it crashed.
While it gives you massive recovery, Hibernate does have an endurance cost. It might be a bit of a crapshoot whether or not it gets detoggled by the end crash.
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My DM/SR can stand up to everything except for Rularuu Eyeballs and those cotton pickin' Quartz pets. Even Battle Maiden isn't that big a threat when I switch to kiting with MG and SL.
I'll just leave this here..
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Quote:
That's what most people seem to think. But if that's what the devs are after, then raising to hit and making defense debuffs more common is the wrong way to solve that problem. As indicated, Super Reflexes and to a lesser extent Shield Defense have a lot of room to get much higher defense than we play with today. So defense sets would remain at the new soft cap if there's a new soft cap, and keep their 90%+ mitigation and 95% defense debuff resistance, generally at the expense of damage output and utility powers.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
I would guess if anything they're trying with the new content to bring softcapped defense back down to resistance set levels of survival. A good non-tanker resistance score is usually between 40 to 60%. Softcapped 'equals' 90%. 15% under softcap (enemies with 65% to hit, which is what the new DE and Battle Maiden have I think) is back to that 60%.
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It's the survivability of resistance sets that would suffer. Right now, the reason they're competitive with the defense sets is that you can add so much defense to them. However, they have little to no defense debuff resistance, which is already a big hole in their mitigation. And if the soft cap is raised significantly higher than today, their defense would become increasingly meaningless, and their average mitigation level (at the top end) would plummet in comparison to the defense sets.
This assumes no further changes to what we have access to, of course. I haven't even been playing I20 beta, or paying attention to what people say about it.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Quote:
Yeah, we wondered the same thing in the earlier thread. We don't know. Murdok surely knows, but I don't think noticed the question. Seems to me that, like any other toggle, it would detoggle in a full endurance crash. I would guess you hit it immediately following the crash (edit: well, a blue inspiration, then it). You probably have at least a couple seconds to react. They probably won't kill you instantly, and any damage will heal back during Hibernate. And really, the recharge isn't QUITE good enough because you need to toggle on Elude before Hibernate drops, and it has a long cast time. So you'll have a rough moment or two at the beginning or the end. Probably best to have it at the beginning so that you're at full strength coming out of Hibernate.
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Originally Posted by Silas
I actually wonder what would happen with Hibernate and the Elude crash, assuming you hit Hibernate before it crashed.
While it gives you massive recovery, Hibernate does have an endurance cost. It might be a bit of a crapshoot whether or not it gets detoggled by the end crash. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Werner's thoughts on defense based sets reminded me of some of the points discussed in the thread on if Nerve Alpha was worth it in the General Discussion page. There is much room for piling on defense. The discussion there didnt make me creat it on my dm/sr but my Stone/dm tank is testing survival differences on both Spirit and Nerve.\
Can someone tell me how much recharge would be needed for the Elude/Hibernate trick, dont have Mid's atm.
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Toggles don't always detoggle during full end crashes, if you get a recovery tick fast enough. Since Hibernate would speed up your recovery to the point that you get... two ticks per second, I think? I believe it'd stay up. Never tried it, though.
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Mmmm, yes, a soft cap build, like we've all been running for years now.|
Originally Posted by DarkPaladinLoki
My DM/SR can stand up to everything except for Rularuu Eyeballs and those cotton pickin' Quartz pets. Even Battle Maiden isn't that big a threat when I switch to kiting with MG and SL.
I'll just leave this here.. |
Look, I'm not saying that the Elude/Hibernate approach is CURRENTLY more survivable than the soft cap approach. I'm saying that if to hit goes through the roof, THEN it would be more survivable. That was pretty much the assumption made in this thread. Yes, an extra 50% defense is meaningless most of the time today. So as is, Elude/Hibernate is at best competitive for survivability, and at the cost of 30 seconds of down time every few minutes.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Quote:
I have experience with this on my /nin stalker. It will detoggle hibernate if you turn it on before the crash unless you are supremely lucky with a +end proc. Normally you have to pop a blue and then turn hibernate on, like you said.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, we wondered the same thing in the earlier thread. We don't know. Murdok surely knows, but I don't think noticed the question. Seems to me that, like any other toggle, it would detoggle in a full endurance crash. I would guess you hit it immediately following the crash (edit: well, a blue inspiration, then it). You probably have at least a couple seconds to react. They probably won't kill you instantly, and any damage will heal back during Hibernate. And really, the recharge isn't QUITE good enough because you need to toggle on Elude before Hibernate drops, and it has a long cast time. So you'll have a rough moment or two at the beginning or the end. Probably best to have it at the beginning so that you're at full strength coming out of Hibernate.
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Oh, and KM can do this trick too... As can a peacebringer with qflight and conserve power, but the lack of quickness hurts there.
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I'd like to see that same level of recharge on an /elec brute. 30 second downtime on 90 percent resist all sounds tasty... and yet that's basically the same effect as soft capped defense from a mitigation standpoint. Interesting the lengths that a resist only set has to go to achieve the same survivability that defense sets have been getting for years, and seems (to me) to validate Werner's thoughts on i20 content.
On the other hand, a point in non sr/sd powerset's favor is how much more survivability can be obtained in most teams from outside buffs. I routinely see 100-150% positional defenses on my SD toon which doesn't really do anything for my personal time to live, since it has capped DDR. Maybe the thing to do is build a WP/Inv/Elec/Regen etc to soft cap and allow team buffs to invalidate the copious amounts of -def that everything and its dog throws at you. So many people are running leadership these days that it's not uncommon (even on a 6 scrapper team) to see 3 or 4 maneuvers buffs. I know that when I was playing a super high recharge BS/Regen in pve, I achieved so much more survivability in a team setting where there was a FF or Emp supplying pb'd fortitude.
Maybe I'll finish bringing the kat/wp up and work on getting a build that can cap with a small purple or DA and make sure I have the recharge to run GC GD GC SD. Hmm.
Those are my thoughts on the 'pass the softcap' idea as well - any time you'd really need it you'd be on a team . While that's not guaranteed to give you defense bonuses it does mean that *you're on a team*. Surely someone somewhere on the team would be doing something to make you more survivable (even if it's 'make all the enemies fall over dead before they can do lasting harm to me').
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Good point about teaming. When I ran Apex on my Katana/Dark, I think I had 35% extra defense from team buffs when we stuck together. All that fell apart when we hit Battle Maiden and scattered to the four winds screaming all the way. I suspect that was a suboptimal strategy for beating her.
One thing I like about Dark Armor is that it has very good resists across the board, but nothing capped. So an orange or some team buffs actually makes a significant difference in how much damage I take. And if there are defense debuffs, team defense buffs also make a significant difference in how much damage I take. Not that I ever team, but when I do...
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the "well-known" scrappers on this board stopped teaming as much after the update that allowed you to solo +4/+8 to your heart's content 
Right now I'm playing my DM/SD scrapper - heavily IO'd, glad unique, purple sets, etc etc and it really is all that, plus a bag of chips. I'm worried, however, that the trend of new content with high amounts of tohit that cuts through soft capped shield defenses is going to make SD less... shall we say... a strong contender when it comes to powerbuilding.
I'm considering something like a s/l softcap KM/Regen or perhaps a katana or fire/willpower. I've plagiarized a few of iggy's builds and have something that I think will work, but my question is more along the lines of "might the sky actually be falling on defense powersets, or am I just paranoid?" I've been playing defense sets heavily since the IO system came out - first SR and then SD. Against anything difficult (read +4/+8) that possesses large amounts of tohit (stupid battle maiden and her 2k headsplitters) or rularuularuularuuus or quartz (this one isn't so bad, shield charge is wonderful) defense powersets just don't really have the staying power that I want them to have.
I'm prepared to take the damage output hit switching from shields to something with more layered defenses - willpower seems like the best choice at the moment. I'd miss the 2.6k midnight grasp crits but I'll be okay given time (Hi, my name's Virya and it's been 3 days since I one-shot a +2 boss).
Will making something with soft capped s/l/e/n defenses and willpower levels of regen give me around the same level of survivability against "normal" content? I'm talking here about ITF and other non-incarnate level 50 stuff. The DM/Shield is pretty much unkillable in any sort of level 50 TF right now with the obvious exceptions (Hamidon in the LGTF and doing stupid things in the new incarnate TF's). I guess I'm looking for something with /SD's normal unkillable-ness without any of its holes. Willpower looks like it might fit the bill, but I'm concerned with its lack of defense debuff resistance. I'm so used to having capped DDR on the /SD that it's been awhile since I had to pay attention to "Oh hey, my defenses are red, I should move".
Here's the DM/SD current build to compare a baseline survival against - any opinions or thoughts from my fellow scrapper brethren would be greatly appreciated. Here's a build I shamelessly stole from Iggy (Katana/WP) mostly I would like opinions on whether this will be more survivable against things that we're likely to see in upcoming incarnate content. Money is no object, etc etc blah blah. Alternatively, if the new incarnate stuff is going to cover SD's holes and you think I should shut up and go punch things, feel free to say so
Cheers!
Virya - DM/SD