Talionis

This is my character from the COH Podcast meetup and I've wanted to level it but I rarely get anyone on this server to run with and I spent an hour last night trying to get a team with no luck.

He's level 20. His name is Grey Guster and he's a Gravity/Storm Controller.

I'm going to throw out there that Defenders have one of the lowest or the lowest modifier for Melee Damage.

I think this was purposeful to keep them out of melee range to protect them, but then Defenders have sets built for melee range and they get one high damage melee power in most of the Epics. It would be nice to see Defenders rewarded for the huge risk they take when they go into melee range.

Its been mentioned, but it doesn't make a huge difference. THe first twenty levels move the fastest of any in the game. So its really only the last three or four powers that it makes any difference on.

I think Controllers are actually harder to level than Defenders because they tend to use more endurance. Once they get SO's Controllers start to solo better. But as you get to the 30's you'll have most all the powers from both your primary and secondary and then its really moot.

But as levels go up Controllers just keep getting stronger and stronger and the same cannot be said for Defenders.

[ quote]As someone whose most played AT jumps between Defender and Controller, I think something that seems to have been glossed over a bit in this discussion is the fact that Defenders have access to the buff/debuff powers far earlier in their careers. While some may argue that the effectiveness of the powers is the same once they get them, I think the fact that Defenders get them earlier must be factored in.

Take kin for example: Having key powers like SB, Transferance, and FS at 12, 26, and 32 vs 20, 35, and 38 makes a large difference. Perhaps most of the folks in this discussion can get to 40 so quickly that it does not matter, but for me, that definitely affects which to play, especially in a game where "it's the journey, not the destination".

Defenders are the only ATs with access to buff/debuff set powers early. Until I get to the 40s, that weighs heavily on my decision on what to play and what to invite. Even later, if I'm doing a Manti TF, the only way I'm getting Andrenalin Boost or Fulcrum Shift is to invite a defender along.

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FREEM these really were the better arguments below, you cherry picked the less strong arguments and didn't address the stronger arguments found here.

I'd say that people in general in this thread don't want to change Controllers. Controllers are actually miserable to solo at low levels before they get their pets. I think they are the most complete end game AT, though. I don't see that as a bad thing.

I'm not ready to concede that Defenders do more damage than Controllers, but if I did its not like Defenders are doing so much more damage that we can tell. They are closer to tied if I had to guess. That would still leave Controllers with all the actual control powers they have, that Defenders don't.

To be honest the other problem is generalizing about Defenders; their primaries have the most variance in how they work of any primary or secondary. Rad Defender is very different from a Force Field defender whose very different from a Kinetic Defender whose very different from a dark Defender. For Control Primaries each has a ST Hold, ST Immobolize, Mass Immobilize, Mass Hold, Mitigation Power, etc (Illusion is the biggest odd ball there). Even though Fire has the most damage of all the controllers, and may be in a league of its own. The other controllers are not slouches when it comes to damage because of containment.

I don't think Defenders need a huge damage increase to be balanced. I just think Defenders need something other than the pathetic inherent, NEGLIGENCE, to feel special and not like Harry Potter locked in the cubard eating food scraps.

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We all agree that Controllers have excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control. The higher they get, the more powerful they get substantially.
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Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team. Am I completely missing something?!
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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Defenders are not "team orientated" AT's anymore then Controllers are. In fact, Controllers are MORE team orientated then Defenders with both primary and secondary sets geared for teaming.
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Also, this whole factor of "force multiplication" as a reason for keeping Defenders as poor as they are is rediculous. Are people seriously saying that 8 Controllers with secondaries ranging from Radiation to Kinetics to ForceFields to Empathy - just like Defenders - are any less of a force multiplier? If anything they are a bigger force multiplier because of the nature of their primary.
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The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
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The disparity in buffs/debuffs between the two is almost non exsistant.


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I think these parts of your statement are really well thought out. Its not that Defenders can't do anything really. Its that to do things Defenders live and breathe in masochism world. They kill things slowly more dangerously than Controllers and Corrupters which really are the only two archetypes you should compare with Defenders.

Its that when you compare a Defender to a Controller or a Corrupter you know in your heart that you got the short end of the stick. Its like when your older sister gets a car for her 16th birthday and you get a computer for your 16th birthday. Maybe you can find ways to use the computer and be happy, but you really wanted the car.

I STAND BY MY STATEMENT: The right new inherent can balance Defenders just fine. Containment did wonders for Controllers.

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After all that enchanced damage being dished out for a long two minutes, ten seconds seems like a very minor if not negligable drawback to me.

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Fun fact: 120 seconds of Build Up has more rooted/no attacking penalty, due to animating the skill 12 times, than the 10 seconds of -9990% damage in Rage. It also costs more total endurance for 120 seconds of Build Up. Rage's only real penalty is that its costs are condensed.

So, even if Build Up could be made perma, it would STILL be arguably worse than Rage. This $#!% has bothered me since issue 1.

120 seconds of Rage:
<ul type="square">[*]30.2 endureance (5.2 up front, 25 after 120seconds)[*]10 seconds of -9990% enhanced damage, with ~1.4 seconds of rooted animation during initial cast.[*]10 seconds of -20% defense, which can be ignored even with just SOs.[/list]120 seconds of BU:
<ul type="square">[*]~14 seconds of rooted animation, 0 damage, 0 control, 0 temp powers activated for full damage with a generous 20% toHit buff from stacked *cough* Rage.[*]52 total endurance[/list]
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This is the other reason I don't like Build Up.

Plus I don't like Build Up because its the default Dev's couldn't think of anything original so we put it on most sets. Rage is only in one set.

Ok.. The real reason I started this thread is because I hate hitting Build Up and Aim. I just hate it. If it lasted longer and I didn't have to hit it as often I'd hate it less.

At least Feint and some of the others are actual attacks. So I don't feel like they do nothing. Heck for brutes they help to keep the Fury Bar going.

Rage clicks on for a good while. That's really why I think Rage is unfair. That and its in a powerset that I'm not really that interested in.

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We all agree that Controllers have excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control. The higher they get, the more powerful they get substantially.
.
Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team. Am I completely missing something?!
.
Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
.
Defenders are not "team orientated" AT's anymore then Controllers are. In fact, Controllers are MORE team orientated then Defenders with both primary and secondary sets geared for teaming.
.
Also, this whole factor of "force multiplication" as a reason for keeping Defenders as poor as they are is rediculous. Are people seriously saying that 8 Controllers with secondaries ranging from Radiation to Kinetics to ForceFields to Empathy - just like Defenders - are any less of a force multiplier? If anything they are a bigger force multiplier because of the nature of their primary.
.
The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
.
The disparity in buffs/debuffs between the two is almost non exsistant.


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I think these parts of your statement are really well thought out. Its not that Defenders can't do anything really. Its that to do things Defenders live and breathe in masochism world. They kill things slowly more dangerously than Controllers and Corrupters which really are the only two archetypes you should compare with Defenders.

Its that when you compare a Defender to a Controller or a Corrupter you know in your heart that you got the short end of the stick. Its like when your older sister gets a car for her 16th birthday and you get a computer for your 16th birthday. Maybe you can find ways to use the computer and be happy, but you really wanted the car.

I STAND BY MY STATEMENT: The right new inherent can balance Defenders just fine. Containment did wonders for Controllers.

What about granting a Fear aura in one of the toggles. I know I wouldn't want to get near someone that was spewing electricity. Dark Armor has a Fear aura, it aids in mitigation. I'd just want it in a toggle I could turn off and not miss.

Luminara and I know there is a Defender tankmage... shhh but its a secret, one of the most rarely played combos in the game.

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Whatever you say *smiles and nods*

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How much +Damage does FF offer?

How much -Res does FF offer?

You've got survivability, but you don't have the damage, not in the base, not in multipliers. You lack the "mage" half of tankmage.

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It would let defenders do funny things like assasinate the first giant monster they see if the vigilence buff didn't dissappate. That's probably fair, right?

The idea has merit, but you'd have to play with it.

My problem is that Rage is really only in one set. I've never really like the Super Strength animations and been able to get a toon idea that I liked for SS. But all the Build Ups just sorta stink in comparison and I guess I was looking for a Build Up improvement or more interations of Rage spread out so that most builds are stuck with a boring stinky Build Up power.

I will say this the inherent for Defenders is terrible. The inherent for Controllers is what makes Defenders jealous.
1. Vigilence rewards you for doing a bad job.
2. Vigilence is inconsistent so you'll end up slotting like it wasn't there and the benefit is lost.
3. Vigilence does nothing for you while the Defender solo's.
4. Containment adds damage to a Mitigation Primary and Buff/Debuff secondary.

Controllers can be some of the hardest toons to solo because fo their endurance use and their low damage early. But as they get to high level they are clearly the most complete archetype.

Personally, I've always wanted to play Defenders and I've played support roles in other games and enjoyed it. I think that the Defender Primary powers are the most interesting. But I've not enjoyed the game play on Defenders with the exception of my Trick Arrow/Dark. Trick Arrow is a total Debuff set, so it works better than most when I want to solo.

ANSWER: Fix Vigilence with the proper fix and it should balance out. Containment is awesome and Vigilence is inconsistent and terrible, it doesn't even save slots.

I'm curious what balances out Super Strength with other Primaries and Secondaries that it gets a better than build up that can be double and triple stacked and fairly easily made perma. For most builds the crash is livable. I'm not trying to nerf rage, just ask why everything else pales in comparison. I also wonder why Build Up was repeated so often instead of spreading out Rage, Sould Drain, etc to other powers

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energy aura...


so strong

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WM/EA so pretty so strong. . . I saw the most amazing screenshots!!!!

Alternate builds are also possible.

I would say give Electric: a mix of Thunderclap without Knockdown and small amount regeneration rate increase or self heal.

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I had a crazy thought... what if Defenders buffs worked on themselves? Possibly at a lesser value. That would help their solo ability a lot. Controllers get an added benefit that they can buff their pets. Why not allow Defenders to buff themselves.

It would help Force Field be this weird no damage dealing tank thing. I alway thought Iron Man was a Defender, but his defense was wrong. Most of the toons with Force Fields in Comics were really hard to knockout, but had little damage.

For the most part the buffs associated with Defenders do not add a lot of damage, so it wouldn't increase their killing speed. But it would make them better at soloing, and allow them to do their roll a little better.

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Only two problems with that logic is that you can't target yourself in this game and there are quite a few long recharge ST ally buffs that would kind of defeat the purpose if a defender always selfishly used them on themselves.

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I can't help with the system not allowing you to target yourself, but by what I said before the buff could be less to yourself incentivizing you to cast it on allies for a greater effect.

Sonic Primary has that toggle you cast that grants PBAoE -resistance aura to an ally. I'd have rolled a Sonic a long time ago if that power worked solo.

My favorite Defender is a Trick Arrow/ Dark Defender. Trick Arrow has no wasted buff powers. Everything hurts enemies, so it works even if you are solo.

Most the other builds I felt like a buff-bot. I don't want to feel that dumned down.

I had a crazy thought... what if Defenders buffs worked on themselves? Possibly at a lesser value. That would help their solo ability a lot. Controllers get an added benefit that they can buff their pets. Why not allow Defenders to buff themselves.

It would help Force Field be this weird no damage dealing tank thing. I alway thought Iron Man was a Defender, but his defense was wrong. Most of the toons with Force Fields in Comics were really hard to knockout, but had little damage.

For the most part the buffs associated with Defenders do not add a lot of damage, so it wouldn't increase their killing speed. But it would make them better at soloing, and allow them to do their roll a little better.

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mace/EA

He'll be STRONG and PRETTY! And he will gnok you so hihg.

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I saw screenshots of how awesome Warmace/Energy Armour could be.

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I wouldn't mind it being a minor version of RTTC or like the Freakshow's reconstruction (maybe a shockyourselfbacktolife rez! /sighs).


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Its not a terrible idea, just make it like Howling Twilight were the power itself does something when you don't need to rez. Have it do an AoE attack too.

With the recharge the power should have the AoE attack portion shouldn't be too unbalanced.

I think Chain Control would be interesting.

Recharge bonus with Endurance bonus tied to something other than your teamates health bar would be the ticket.

Recharge bonus helps a little on doing more Damage because it allows you to use your better attacks more often. This will increase damage slightly without being a huge change. Recharge bonus would also allow heals, debuffs, and buffs to be up more quickly.

Now if your powers are up more quickly you'll use more endurance. I think that's why people have said that the two should be tied together.

The other big change people would suggest is not completely tying the inherent with the number of people on the team.

A possible idea is to have it function like Domination only have its recharge be based on the number of people on the team. That way it would come up when you are solo, but not all the time, but you could also control when you use it. Possibly if you have 6 or more teamates it would be perma.

Devs could balance, I'm just throwing out an idea.

I just want it to work when I solo. I mean come on. Defenders do solo.

I always thought that Psychic Damage was supposed to be good for PvP, plus you get some mez protection.

I'm looking for something that can solo, but will team well. I'm hoping to make it feel pretty rugged.

I'm leaning towards ice/kin because Artic Air should provide a good layer of mitigation that will allow the kin to be his clicky self in melee-ish range.

But what do you think? Is Fire/Kin that much better? I would still think Ice/Kin would be the hardiest, am I wrong?