Smiling_Joe

::shrug:: seemed like people were bouncing off the walls to me as it was (including me - alpha slot has been my favorite change to this game bar none). I'm going to get it either way (two more notices of the well to go), so I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Just curious. Thanks for the responses!

The healing and +hp are factored into the survivability figures in those spreadsheets, and Warshades still came out far, far ahead. I would agree, however, that light form isn't the problem there. What really puts Warshades ahead is Stygian Circle.

For anyone who's curious why I say that, do this: download the Warshade spreadsheet and enter "0" in the boxes for Stygian Circle on one of the mitigation pages. Even weighted for Eclipse, the survivable dps plummets to right around Peacebringer levels.

Eclipse and Light Form are pretty balanced, if I'm reading my spreadsheet right. Stygian Circle, however, is up more often than its PB counterparts and gives more bang for the click with minimal slotting.

HOWEVER, it is also the most risky of any of these powers to use, in that it gets used when you are (a) low on health or stamina, and (b) generally right in the middle of losing said health or stamina. With a PB's click heals you can jump away and use them and get the same results as if you were still in the thick of things. SC requires you to stay right in the thick of things right when you're most vulnerable.

EDIT - I don't have nearly as much heartburn with the discrepancies in survivability as I do with the discrepancies in offensive effectiveness (which actually include more than just damage, but then I didn't have the math or the time to compare spawn mitigation in addition to raw damage potential). One thing to take into account here is also the way in which a Peacebringer's inherent affects survivability vise a Warshade's. When a WS needs survivability on a team the most is when there aren't enough damage soakers/mitigators on the team. What does a Warshade get? More damage that really isn't needed. When a Peacebringer needs it the most (same situation), then all those other damage dealers push his resistance numbers to the ceiling. The mitigation spreadsheets should probably have taken that into account, but see what I said above about having the math and the time.

Maybe some other enterprising soul would be so good as to pick up the torch...

Whoah, now. Let's not start any talk of nerfing anything. Live and let live where eclipse is concerned, I say. Nothing to see here.

Move along, folks! Move along!

The warshade single target numbers represent one enemy hit with both the attack and the mire. Unchain essence is weighted and expressed as an overall dps addition with the other burst damage powers like Photon Seekers and the nukes, and all of that is included in the first set of figures in my previous post. The second set of figures excludes all of the burst damage like UE and just gives build up/mire weighted damage.

The AoE damage numbers aren't so much a true reflection on actual dps so much as they are a loose measure of damage potential against simultaneous multiple targets. In those figures, Mire is weighted to hit what I consider to be a conservative three enemies on average. I suppose I could do a separate set of numbers showing maximum saturation on the mire, but then I'd also have to assume maximum targets hit on all powers.

I'm not saying that the extra 20 seconds doesn't serve the mire well, so much as I am saying that the 72% damage boost from build up serves it a little better than the 11.5% boost per target yielded by Sunless Mire. The gap closes once more targets are taken into account, and widens again in Build Up's favor at higher recharge rates attainable by IO's. Looking at the numbers, I'm not sure a significant advantage is ever reached with Sunless Mire's longer length.

So yes, I am saying that putting the extra damage in photon seekers is more advantageous than changing Build Up. Build Up as it is is balanced with Sunless Mire fairly well, and to me it makes more sense to change the power that's out of balance: Photon Seekers.

Thematically, it's like the character absorbs the energy of their explosion and uses it to increase his or her own damage.

The idea also lets you get in a very good burst against hard targets by casting buildup after unleashing the photon seekers. Casting the nuke afterward on a full spawn or two would be... well... gratutitous.


Having said all that, however, I'm not completely sold on the damage buff idea as I've laid it out. It may be that more or less of a damage buff is a better balancer, and it may be something besides a damage buff that will help us. I'm intrigued by the prospect of the recharge bonus granted in lieu of extra energy damage, because it will help with everything from team buffs to damage via better attack chains to better mitigation via faster heals. Haven't really started to think that one out yet, though.

Better mitigation is another area where we've fallen behind, and it's noteworthy that my +damage suggestion for Photon Seekers does nothing to help that. How much the +recharge suggestion would help it is debatable, depending on what I come up with (when I get some more time).

EDIT - Here's the spreadsheet that reflects my suggestion, if you're interested. It assumes a 120 second recharge on Photon Seekers that, slotted for 95% recharge and benefiting from Hasten's 75% recharge bonus, comes out to 44.4 seconds of recharge. As before, Nova's damage considers that not all photon seekers go off at range, and is weighted as such.

Except the major difference in damage numbers DOESN'T come from build-up vs mires. The difference is in the pets.

Remove pet damage from the equation, and you've got the following:

Peacebringer damage potential:

Human Single Target: 103.24
Human AoE: 131.71
Nova Single Target: 105.3
Nova AoE: 226.71
Dwarf Single Target: 75.52
Dwarf AoE: 125.24

Warshade damage potential:

Human Single Target: 75.08
Human AoE: 87.82
Nova Single Target: 98.08
Nova AoE: 100.82
Dwarf Single Target: 84.08
Dwarf AoE: 167.82


Note that the above figures still takes build up and mire into account, along with all burst damage powers. With the notable exception of Black Dwarf (which is benefiting from more attacks and dwarf mire), the Peacebringer's burst damage and build up combination wins out every time.

But let's look at those figures without the burst damage, leaving only the raw dps damage weighted by build up and mire:

Peacebringer damage potential:

Human Single Target: 99
Human AoE: 119
Nova Single Target: 101
Nova AoE: 214
Dwarf Single Target: 74
Dwarf AoE: 96

Warshade damage potential:

Human Single Target: 68
Human AoE: 68
Nova Single Target: 91
Nova AoE: 177
Dwarf Single Target: 77
Dwarf AoE: 143

So it looks like Peacebringers actually get more out of Build UP than Warshades get out of mire *on average*.

The argument could be made that a fully saturated mire would make more of a difference between the two, but IMHO not enough to warrant the criticism build up has received at the expense of mire.

Changing the Photon Seekers is almost all that's needed to close the dps gap. The current suggestion I'm currently running the numbers on gives photon seekers the Fiery Embrace treatment, where their self destruct power also grants the player an extra 15% energy damage buff on each of his attacks PER SEEKER for 30 seconds, giving a total damage buff of 45% for 30 seconds after the seekers explode, provided they all explode at the same time. This, along with lowering the recharge to somewhere around 120 seconds (and if I'm calculating correctly you'll have to have considerable IO investment in recharge bonuses to bring that recharge down to 30 seconds, and I don't think you'd bring it down much lower). Flag the photon seekers the way MM tier 1 pets are flagged - making them unique after 3 - and call it a day.

Theoretically. I'm still on the fence about it. I've got the numbers plugged into my master spreadsheet, and it brings peacebringer damage potential ALMOST to Warshade levels, but I'm currently uncertain about how much the recharge could be abused and how doable the unique flag is.

I've also thought of an alternative being a 30 second recharge boost granted (with the same figures per seeker) that might help the Peacebringer in ALL areas, from damage to team support to self mitigation. Haven't had much time to think about that one, though.

Patch notes from may 2008

This is what I was talking about by -fly resistance. Can't believe I remembered the nova but not combat flight. Sheesh.

@Dechs and Jersey - thanks for the compliments, and I very much DO consider it a team effort between Dechs and me. Wouldn't have gotten very far with out Dech's sheets or his math checking!

I'm currently playing around with the spreadsheets to try and come up with some reasonable suggestions. I'm closest right now to a suggestion for Photon Seekers that might just close the damage gap between the two considerably without violating the cottage rule, but I want to consider a few alternatives first before posting.

......I did not know that. I might have to go back and put hover back into a few more builds.

Thanks!

If I'm not mistaken, Hydra ranged attacks - in addition to the toxic damage type - have enough of a -fly component in them that more than a hit or two will overwhelm the nova's -fly resistance. Zombie apocalypses are the same way. I don't even bother with nova in those instances. You're far better off to wade in with an eclipse-buffed dwarf.

Just "6" should suffice. If you're wanting to use the number row keys for binds and your numpad keys for power tray powers, and IF this bind interferes with that (I don't think it would, but I can't be sure; I'm a laptop driver), then also use this bind:

/bind numpad6 powexec_slot 6

hope that helps!

Microcosm's inspiration combining gide


/bind [key] "powexec_name unchain essence$$target_custom_next enemy defeated"

Remember the game engine reads binds right to left, so keep the target portion to the right of the unchain essence portion.

See what you did? You inspired me. While I would have picked Fire/kinetic over fire/ice for an airbender tribute (using kinetics' animations and calling it a poor man's "air" attack set), I was intrigued enough by the combo you suggested to roll up a new tanker for double xp.

"Aether Burn" is now five bars from picking up the earth epic (thinking of salt crystals to stack with frozen aura) and is an absolute blast!

Sounds back-handed to me , but I'd wager it's also the first time they'd seen a high level ice tank in action.

That's one of the things I like about being an ice tanker - there are so few of us left that people don't often get to see how awesome that set can be. I'm a mediocre tanker at best. But I look like a freakin' pro on an ice tank.

Nova also has resistance to powers that negate flight, something human form lacks, I believe. To what degree that resistance is I don't know off the top of my head; I know Zombie apocalypses have been known to bring my nova out of the air, but little else does. A nova's flight mitigation is superior to the human's for that reason.

Also, a human has much weaker ranged blasts than the nova. In order to capitalize on using flight as mitigation, a human would have to give up the same attacks that bring its single target damage anywhere near that of the nova.

EDIT - although the point can be made (to play devil's advocate with myself) that human form would still have the shields for mitigation. Anyone who can write a bind (or read the thread in my sig) can drop from nova for an instantaneous heal, so I don't count the heals as human-exclusive.

EDIT, the sequel - And you don't even have to give up flight to drop from nova for healing:

/macro heal "powexec_toggleoff bright nova$$goto_tray 1$$powexec_toggleon energy flight$$powexec_name restore essence"

Anything can be pulled out of context and called "strong." I might propose the addition of power X that does 300 points of damage and you would call that strong damage until I told you it was a nuke.

My quibble with your post was not that you said Peacebringers have "strong" shields insomuch as it was that you said they had strong shields and stopped there. There is a difference between "strong" and "strong enough."

My /axe tanker had strong damage, but tankers still got a buff in the form of "bruising" added to their first tier attack to bring that damage up. My DM/ scrapper was a strong damage dealer, but Midnight Grasp and Siphon Life still saw improvements.

The statement that Peacebringers have very strong defenses - when left without qualifiers or support - puts a band-aid over a numerical performance that pales in comparison to its nearest cousin. Don't tell me the defenses are strong. Tell me why they are strong.

I'm not interested in stating the obvious when stating that warshades are demonstrably stronger than peacebringers. I'm interested in why they are stronger. If the lesser performance can be justified, then fine; but please don't generalize an archetype's performance just for the sake of promoting good will about the archetype. If it needs changed, let's ask them to change it. But let's at least talk about it in specific terms beforehand.

I agree with the spirit of your post - especially the parts about teaming and having fun - but one quibble with the quoted part...

Peacebringers have demonstrably lower defenses than Warshades, as well as a tier 9 that - unless you don't have dwarf form or break frees - is almost completely invalidated by having 3 damage dealers on the team (shields and/or Dwarf resistances assumed).

The lower overall damage potential I can deal with, although I would like to see Photon Seekers' recharge reduced considerably, but something should also be tweaked with Light Form.

From the top of the first page of the Peacebringer Spreadsheet:

Build Up Weighted Human Math: (((Duration/Recharge)*Build Up Mag)*Damage)+Damage

Build Up Weighted Forms Math: ((((Duration-Form Animation)/Recharge)*Build Up Mag)*Damage)+Damage

Build Up Weighted Math for Dawn Strike: (Build Up Mag*Damage)+Damage - After all, who hits this without build up?

In other words, the percent of the time it's up is multiplied by the damage buff, the resulting weighted percentage being added to the damage of the powers. For forms I reduced the duration by the form shifting animation, and for Dawn Strike I gave it the full buff every time, since the two are almost always done together.

The same follows for Sunless Mire, but there's two figures: one for a single target buff, and one for three targets hit. Like I said, I chose three targets for everything damage-wise because that's likely the average you'll hit, on the conservative side. Thus, the single target dps for warshade is based on a single foe mired, and the AoE numbers are based on three foes mired.

For recharge you have only to look at the builds (in the notes at the top of the first page of each sheet). I also assumed Hasten was active for each one for simplicity's sake, giving a picture of each build at the peak of its power in any given mission. I suppose a comparison could be done without Hasten taken into account, if someone wanted to, by downloading the sheets and plugging in the recharge numbers from Mids with Hasten toggled off.

EDIT - As an aside, something I noticed about Mids - it toggles off inherent fitness powers whenever a form is activated. I realized this midway through the analysis and had to go back and calculate health/regeneration manually for the forms.