Sailboat
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Posts
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And although more defense won't help (except to offset enemy buffs, which are usually so huge they're hard to cancel out, and debuffs, which are often small enough that some extra defense can help), if you're curious, you can see exactly what chance enemies had to hit you by looking in the combat log, and also by adding "last hit chance" to your combat attributes monitor.
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Quote:This is an example of how choosing one's starting assumptions can derail one's analysis, IMHO.Originally Posted by Syntax42
I'm not saying its a bad set. I just think it is a little overrated. As I pointed out earlier in different words, IOing out any Tanker primary can produce something capable of tanking any TF in the game. I think Invulnerability's popularity is partially due to the ease of leveling them because they get more S/L resistance and defense at lower levels than other Tanker primaries. They are also pretty tough without heavy INF investment.
Take a look at this list and you will see why I think Invulnerability is overrated:
First, think about how plentiful defense is. You can get significant defense buffs from four different Defender primaries which also exist in some form on Controllers and Corrupters. Set bonuses and pool powers have also made it possible to soft cap one category of defense, or spread your defense out to 32.5% in more categories so you can soft cap with one person's buffs or a small purple inspiration. All of this means you can take defense out of the equation when evaluating survivability because it is so easy to get defense on any Tanker primary.
What should we look at when evaluating Tankers then? Resistance is the primary form of mitigation when a hit gets through the defense, so that should be looked at first. Next, regeneration and healing powers will heal whatever damage you take after resistance mitigates it.
In order of resistance vs end-game content, I would rate the primaries in the following order. Remember that energy damage is almost as common as S/L.
Stone Armor
Electric Armor
Invulnerability
Dark Armor
Willpower
Fiery Aura
Shield Defense
Ice Armor
Now, if we take total HP/s into account, things move around a bit, but not much. Remember this includes healing powers as well as regeneration.
Stone Armor
Dark Armor
Electric Armor
Fiery Aura
Invulnerability
Willpower
Shield Defense
Ice Armor
Invulnerability has one of the weakest heals, so it drops a few ranks. It heals for a LOT when you activate it, but total HP/s of healing is about double that of slotted Health, but only if you get it perma'd.
My list assumes you will spend whatever you have to in order to make an awesome end-game Tanker. The quoted list holds true for players on a lower budget or just looking to play casually. IO sets, a good player behind the keyboard, and a good team make all the difference, in that order.
Remember, I'm not saying a certain set is ineffective. Any set can work. Only extreme situations bring out the differences in the sets and most players won't try to push their Tankers to the limits by searching for those extreme situations.
"Defense being plentiful" somehow results in Dark, Fire and Electric being considered the equals of Invulnerability for defense, when they are not, in my game experience. Lacking any sort of defense debuff protection, they are quite vulnerable to debuffs causing cascading defense failure. I have and love a Fire Tanker with a defense build, but that defense plunges into the negative much, much, much more often than my Invulnerability Tanker's life drops due to exotic damage types.
Also I question whether energy damage is "nearly as common" as smashing and lethal in the end game. There's so much smashing and lethal damage; it seems like practically every group has its version of the Rikti swords. -
Thanks!
As it stands, I am considering 3-slotting it and putting in 3 recharges at first, later transitioning to end reductions in any of those slots if I get enough global recharge to ditch one or more of the original recharges.
I am also considering replacing my 3 heals in Aid Self with frankenslotting (3 heal/recharge IOs unless I commit additional slots). That'll be a smaller heal but available more frequently. Undecided on adding more slots eventually. -
While we're on the subject, I vaguely recall someone describing a way you can get Mid's to pick the next IO in a set as you slot up a power, so that if you're slotting a set (as opposed to frankenslotting) you can place it faster without having to manually go find each IO and slot it. Is there such a thing, or am I misremembering?
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Quote:How about one, overall?Originally Posted by Steelclaw
Possible Metrics:
* Survivability - give yourself a set number of "lives" per level. -
Quote:Look, you're entitled to your opinion, but have you slotted your Invulnerability Tanker? With JUST SOs, exemplared so they are penalized, mine rocked through Task Forces and arcs filled with energy and negative damage.Originally Posted by Syntax42
Invulnerability is really only good against smashing and lethal damage. Against anything else, the resistance is poor. Psionic and toxic damage will hurt a lot. It is more difficult to slot for Psi defense in Invulnerability due to needing to slot for more defense than a Granite Tanker needs to reach the soft caps on everything else.
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Invulnerability is great against S/L but falls apart when facing defense debuffs and a non-physical damage type.
Invuln has 50% defense debuff resistance. It's not capped, but if you have a few percent extra defense as a buffer you'll be fine. Mine is currently sporting 50% s/l/e/n defense with one foe in range, and never experiences a cascading defense failure. Sure, on the ITF, the Cimerorans knock my defense down some, but it keeps coming back up as their debuffs wear off. Typically it seesaws around 50% in crowds, but when everything goes wrong at once, it's plunged to 38%, at which point I pretty much do nothing ut keep punching and watch it climb back up before I take appreciable damage.
I was in an ITF when the Nictus ambush hit us and killed everyone else. I was surrounded by more negative-energy attackers than the aggro cap, AND defense-debuffing Romans...my defense should have been debuffed and then poorly-resisted negative damage should have killed me. Instead I cycled through Dull Pain three times (and it's nowhere near perma) and judiciously hit a green now and then, and was still fighting when the team returned from the hospital their second time.
Had it been any worse, I could have hit an inexpensive temp power or something.
I do concede I've had trouble facing multiple Ring Mistresses and Master Illusionists unassisted (testing x8 Carnie missions). I'm not sure that's anything to be ashamed of.
In practice, I simply have not found Invuln to be as limited as your description implies. -
The toxic resistance from Fire's Healing Flames definitely stacks, I've used it as a tactic. As far as using that to be sturdy in the newer Incarnate Task Forces, well, I dunno...I haven't done them yet, and frankly Fiery Aura isn't the go-to set for "sturdy." I love my Fire Tankers though.
Invulnerability has a great aggro tool -- only Ice and Shield have better. It's also got that great "layered defenses" thing going on, which IMHO is your best bet against the current (and even theoretical upcoming) end-game threats. I'm a big fan.
Willpower also has great layered defenses. For durability, I personally consider it neck-and-neck with Invuln, right behind a Granite stoner. Speaking strictly for myself, I'd give Inv a tiny advantage in some edge cases -- against alphas with theoretical super-high burst damage, Inv should perform better simply because Willpower partially relies on fixing damage after it occurs instead of preventing it (and Willpower adds 20% to your hit points all the time, vs. Inv adding 40% in spikes). But I admit I have yet to actually see a case in game where I felt that Willpower fell down in a a situation where Invulnerability did not -- this is armchair theory only, and Willpower looks plenty rugged.
Shield is surprisingly durable, too. It has lesser resistances but they do exist, which creates some degree of layering, and it has a fine taunt aura (augmented by the small debuff from AAO, it should be a higher threat value than Invulnerability's, and it lasts much longer than the little ticks of WIllpower's).
The only caveat I have to add to the idea of Dark is that any defense you add to it with IOs may be brushed aside by debuffs or to-hit buffs in some of the endgame content. Otherwise it's a very well-rounded set. -
Quote:I'm not sure I understand...Willpower's Quick recovery is available at level 12, has no pre-requisites, and generates more endurance than Stamina anyway. And plenty of other builds made do with only Stamina for endurance. Why would a Willpower Tanker facing tight build choices even have taken pre-inherent Stamina?Originally Posted by Curveball
Yeah, when I made my db tanker I chose willpower... a set that you absolutely need to take everything for except the tier 8 and 9 powers. It was a tight build until stamina became inherent.
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Quote:Yes, five...but. Once it kills off a foe, Burn will damage a new foe with its remaining DOT, so it usually does manage to wing more than 5 foes if you have them. That said, its DOT component, although helpful, won't be killing off +4 bosses very fast. :POriginally Posted by TBoxer
And I'm thinking that Burn would be incredibly useful at that point against 4+ hard targets. (Though I think it has a target cap of 5?)
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Quote:But Thunder Clap does create containment, in that an attack with your primary will do double damage to foes stunned by T-clap.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It can't. The rule of thumb is powers in secondaries don't offer Controller special abilities (overpower or containment in cases like Lightning Storm or Repulsion Bomb). Altho Controllers do still get better mezz duration values from these powers.
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I'm no expert on DPS chains, but if no one else had replied, I'd have added that Martial Arts and Dual Blades also do pretty nice single-target damage, although I understand the previously suggested sets are probably a bit better. Another possible consideration is having a different damage type than your teammate (apparently primarily fire with some lethal) in case of resistances.
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How do most people slot Boost Range? It looks like something you'd slot 3 recharges in like Hasten, unless you had enough global recharge to "perma" it on fewer slots. I've only seen it in one or two posted builds recently, however, and it was one-slotted for recharge (but I didn't have Mid's available and can't tell if those builds had tons of global recharge).
Also as an aside, I have Aid Self on my new Blaster; I don't usually take it, and am wondering what typical or consensus slotting on it would be. Currently I have 3 heals in it and mostly use it after fights to top off. The character is an energy/energy Blaster, and occasionally manages to sneak in a heal during combat because the foes are knocked back.
If I decide to invest more into it, I could frankenslot it with 4-5 heal/recharge set IOs at some point, and maybe a plain interrupt IO. -
Quote:Vengeful Slice and One Thousand Cuts also have knockdown, so there's a single-target knockdown in the Attack Vitals combo and 2 area knockdowns in the Sweep combo, one at the beginning and one at the end, when they're getting back up. If you use the Sweep combo it's not too bad for mitigation.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Dual Blades really only gives you a PBAoE knockdown and a bit of -tohit if you take that combo, unless I'm forgetting something.
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I agree with most of this advice. I'd like to add:
Ya gotta take Burn. I've used it extensively since the change and it's a very good power. I even use it for single targets now, let alone groups. Properly slotted (frankenslotted for the ed cap in damage and recharge) it's back up very soon after it burns out -- you can almost "perma" it without global recharge. It does a ton of damage while you do other things at the same time.
The main cost of taking Acrobatics is the power picks -- it has 2 pre-requisites unless you were planning on leaping anyway -- and the slots to get the end cost down. That's enough to persuade me to buy the IOs.
There's a third way between soft-capping defenses at the expense of your offense and not having any defense -- taking as much defense as you can without reducing your offense. Generally I can get between 30-35% defense to smashing, lethal, energy, and negative (fire is less critical due to your 90% resistance...cold is important but I ran out of slots, and it's very uncommon). This really extends the durability of the tank without what I consider to be significant sacrifice of offensive power. -
Quote:This is really sound advice. I have made many, many characters over the years. I find that even the most min-maxed, carefully-designed, highly efficient game-busting character does not give me the personal satisfaction of playing a character with a good concept, costume, and description. The characters I made because I heard such-and-such combination was "hot" are fun to play too, but over time, they sit in day jobs while the characters with personalities get the bulk of my playtime.Originally Posted by Morbid Star
The best answer i can give this question is to first think of a concept of what ever you think would be fun to play
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Quote:With the caveat that melee toons usually don't learn what mezzes the enemy groups have (because to a lrage extent they ignore the effects). It can be a rude shock to switch to an AT without status protection. "Those guys stun? Never knew that!"Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
I suggest Scrapper or Brute for a first toon, IMO these are best because you can really learn the game around you.
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Uberguy already said it, but to reinforce:
Quote:This is absolutely, specifically, and technically wrong, especially in the way you're using it. There is no benefit whatsoever to exceeding the soft cap...for any character...ever...except for a buffer against being debuffed. The soft cap is such a useful concept BECAUSE this is true. Furthermore, all early discussions of the concept, during which the term "soft cap" became popularized, explicitly established this.Originally Posted by Rodion
This is a misapprehension of what the soft cap means. The soft cap is relative to level and rank: the 45% soft cap is relative to even-con minions. Higher conning enemies have an accuracy bonus (see the ParagonWiki article on attack mechanics), as do higher-ranking enemies like LTs and bosses.
This means that if you're fighting level 54 bosses and AVs -- which you find in the Tin Mage and Apex TFs -- you want to exceed the even-con minion soft cap.
Sorry to be so forceful, but I see this pop up from time to time and it's very likely to confuse people about an already-established and well-understood principle of game mechanics. -
I am currently putting together some mid-level, mid-range (i.e., not trash but not expensive) sets for a character in the mid-30s. Using Mid's, of course.
This is...taking a while. Mostly for two reasons:
- Set IOs in denominations lower than 50 don't seem to be marketed very often. Usually for whole long ranges of levels there won't be any for sale for days or weeks, and then there's one at, say, 27. But I am trying to hit a specific level target for the most bang for my buck at a certain exemplar level -- the IOs will work a little better if they're ALL, say, 30, than if one of them is that 27.
- I do not habitually pay the "buy it nao" price. Partly it's a point of pride for me to try not to get too manhandled in the market; partly it's fun to get a deal; and partly it's that I often sell off stuff at "must move now" low prices to clear out inventory as I play, and although I do have some money and could pay high prices for low-to-medium end stuff, I just don't think it's a long-term formula for success to buy high and sell low.
And so I wait. It's taken me about a week of serious planning and bid-placing to get almost all of the recipes for three six-slotted powers. I'm still a few IOs short. And soon I will be putting the damned things together, bidding in the middle of the ranges for salvage and/or burning AE tickets. And then, after 2 weeks or so of fiddling, I will have my mid-level IOs in those three powers and can start working toward the rest of the build on this one character.
It feels like it takes a long time.
Is there a better way I should be doing this? -
Quote:This is going to go on your Permanent Record.Originally Posted by enrious2
Moral of the story - "Permanent Ban" means more than just "You've been naughty"
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I've never starred, but I began using the player notes when once too often someone I didn't recognize recognized me. Sure, it takes a little time to stop moving during pauses between missions and make a player note of whatever impression I've formed, but I find it helps me to feel more connected to a community and less lost in a sea of strange robots, aliens, ninjas, catgirls, and pirates.
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Quote:Ever lagged while teleporting?Originally Posted by CanaDixieMan
Leaping is the only Travel Power that can result in personal damage.
Leapers don't spend as much time trapped in bus stops as my Super Speeders do. :PQuote:Originally Posted by CanaDixieMan
OK, I can see that it might hurt if you landed badly, but it doesn't seem fair to penalise Leapers when Flyers never run into buildings and Speedsters never hit cars. -
I'll add that the Inherent Fitness change this issue impacts travel powers in 2 ways.
Firstly, everyone new and any older character who respecs will have both Hurdle and Swift, so there will be some characters moving a bit faster and leaping a bit higher than they would have if they'd avoided picking one of those powers.
Secondly, the power picks "freed up" by the change don't come with any slots. So there's a lot of discussion about what to take that's useful with only the default slot. Well, the travel powers are! The Flight speed change makes it a one-slot wonder just as Super Jump and Super Speed have always been (Teleport is still hoping you can spare a slot or two, but Recall Friend is a one-slot wonder).
As a Tanker, mobility is important. I have some Ninja-run-only builds that I like, but they're not Tankers; for some reason I find it a little too restrictive for my tanking tastes. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Wonderslug
Fiery Embrace hasn't been a damage buff of any sort since I18. Instead, it adds a fully enhanceable fire damage component to all of your attacks for 20 seconds. The added damage is usually about 45% of the base damage. This is a much better deal for everyone, fire/fire included.To clarify, it does not add +45% damage boost to your attacks, but a separate "tick" of fire damage equal to about 45% of the strength of the attack at that moment, as modified by buffs and debuffs. This means that Fury, Build up, inspirations, and other damage buffs boost your attack damage normally and they boost that chunk of fire damage. This also means that the extra chunk of fire damage is not subject to the damage cap, which is the upper limit to the the percent enhancement the damage power can get.Quote:Originally Posted by Person34
Yeah fiery embrace now adds a +45% fire damage boost to all of your attacks, which scales with fury.
Let's say a teammate has Fulcrum Shifted your team to the damage cap. Whee! Neither you nor any other Brute with your melee set can do higher damage than (X) now...BUT Fiery Aura Brutes can add the FE damage bonus on top of that. Even Shield Charge (can) bump up against that damage cap when boosted enough...but THIS Brute goes to ELEVEN. -
Quote:Originally Posted by PhroX
To support what others have said, in the end, the best way to stay alive is layered protection - two or more of defense, resistance and healing and/or the equivalent debuffs.Quote:Originally Posted by Sailboat
And damage output. "The best defense is a good offense" works fairly well in COH/V. My Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker, for example, only has to live longer than the spawn, and she can make that a pretty short time indeed. Then Healing Flames fixes everything before the next spawn.Quote:Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Offense works well to supplement other mitigation methods, but offense alone doesn't do you a lot of good.
Just ask general population solo blasters from a couple years ago.
I think you've taken what I said too seriously. As the quote train above should make clear, I was adding damage to the list of layered defenses, where it very much does help keep you alive, a fact any Fire/Fire Tanker can demonstrate. I'm not claiming damage alone will let you tank Lord Recluse. But then, I guess if the game offered ENOUGH damage, you could just one-shot him and go home. It's really only because the most severe threats tend to be built to survive enormous amounts of damage, and the game won't let you wield that much damage, that it is inadequate.Quote:Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
I did say 'general population'. Remember, we know for a fact that a couple years ago, blasters were THE worst performing solo core AT blueside.
If offense as mitigation was reliable, this wouldn't be the case.
Your argument is a bit like if I came into a layered mitigation discussion, focused on just the passive regen from Health, and aggressively kept pointing out it won't keep you alive. It won't -- by itself. -
Quote:Gah, I didn't realize either one of those. I used to occasionally use one before starting a Task Force, but found the supposed 15 minute duration was getting eaten up while standing around waiting for the leader to finish recruiting and so on, so I fell out of the practice.Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Just a quick note here... Base Empowerments last for an hour... not the 15 min.s stated in the description text.
Also, you can stack different empowerments (invis + hold resist + psi resist...).
This would also be handy for level-locked characters with limited slotting options....