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Glad to see my posts have the intended effect. Dark Armor is not that IO hungry. I spent most of my leveling time in DA on SOs. The IOs I did have, and I will admit to being "hungry" for are the Theft of Essence +endurance proc and some KB protection. Once you have those, DA is capable of amazing things.|
Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
Dark Armor - I used to have no interest in this set for any character... Until I started reading Dechs Kaison's posts. That man is a convincing person, to be honest. The numbers seem decent, although the set appears to be one that is IO hungry. Which, again, given my pursuit isn't an issue. I like the control tools, they're neat. Cloak of Darkness concerns me from a tank perspective. Dark Regen looks neat, and I like the idea of having Soul Transfer.
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Cloak of Darkness is a non issue. It doesn't lower your threat, and even though the stealth does not suppress, once the mob is notified of your presence, it's as if you don't have stealth at all. Gauntlet, AoEs, and even getting close enough all make that stealth effect disappear. Just to enforce the point even further: Cloak of Darkness has not once hindered my ability to gain and maintain aggro.
The control auras (my favorite being Oppressive Gloom) really shine when they allow you to deal with pesky debuffing enemy types much more easily than other tanker sets.
Just remember: If it can't kill you in 15 seconds, it can't kill you. Even if it can, if it doesn't kill you again before Soul Transfer recharges, it doesn't count and you've never lost your aggro.
Edit to add secondary synergies with DA:
KM is a personal favorite, and I wish my tanker had this set sometimes. The -damage, knockdowns, stuns to stack with OG would add heaps of survivability to my already tough tanker. On top of that, Power Siphon really boosts the damage aura thanks to the long duration of the damage buff.
Mace and Stone are about equal with each other in my mind. Stuns and knockdown abound. Dark Regeneration will cause redraw for mace.
Ice would be interesting. I always look to Ice Melee as the pinnacle of mitigation. Everything is flopping, or attacking with the ravenous pace of a turtle.
Dark Melee is (and I know I'm going against popular opinion here) wasted on a Dark tank. Dark Armor already has a great heal, making Siphon Life less needed as a heal. Granted, it's still the second best attack in the set. It's easy to overcome the endurance issues of Dark Armor and DA has end drain/recovery debuff resist, so once the endurance issues are handled, there's no purpose to having Dark Consumption. Soul Drain is an amazing damage buff, however.
DB is pretty. It also has heaps of knockdown and a lot of uptime on +damage to boost the damage aura. Dark Regeneration will cause redraw.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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What can I say? You're convincing enough to make me try (and be excited for) a Warshade again, something I also neglected for the past few years. That's saying something! :P|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Glad to see my posts have the intended effect. Dark Armor is not that IO hungry. I spent most of my leveling time in DA on SOs. The IOs I did have, and I will admit to being "hungry" for are the Theft of Essence +endurance proc and some KB protection. Once you have those, DA is capable of amazing things.
Cloak of Darkness is a non issue. It doesn't lower your threat, and even though the stealth does not suppress, once the mob is notified of your presence, it's as if you don't have stealth at all. Gauntlet, AoEs, and even getting close enough all make that stealth effect disappear. Just to enforce the point even further: Cloak of Darkness has not once hindered my ability to gain and maintain aggro. The control auras (my favorite being Oppressive Gloom) really shine when they allow you to deal with pesky debuffing enemy types much more easily than other tanker sets. Just remember: If it can't kill you in 15 seconds, it can't kill you. Even if it can, if it doesn't kill you again before Soul Transfer recharges, it doesn't count and you've never lost your aggro. |
Silliness aside, thank you for the information on CoD. 5% base the entire time is quite an impressive amount of defense as well.
I was considering: DA/DB, DA/Stone and DA/Mace. The latter two for stacking disorients with OG. From what I've read, DM is redundant with DA.
Edit: Bah, too slow, you edited in secondary comments while I was typing this.
Edit 2: Actually, I REALLY like the idea of a stealth now, jumping into a spawn unseen and having OG/COF tap a few thing with controls and stifling part of the alpha.
The toxic resistance from Fire's Healing Flames definitely stacks, I've used it as a tactic. As far as using that to be sturdy in the newer Incarnate Task Forces, well, I dunno...I haven't done them yet, and frankly Fiery Aura isn't the go-to set for "sturdy." I love my Fire Tankers though.
Invulnerability has a great aggro tool -- only Ice and Shield have better. It's also got that great "layered defenses" thing going on, which IMHO is your best bet against the current (and even theoretical upcoming) end-game threats. I'm a big fan.
Willpower also has great layered defenses. For durability, I personally consider it neck-and-neck with Invuln, right behind a Granite stoner. Speaking strictly for myself, I'd give Inv a tiny advantage in some edge cases -- against alphas with theoretical super-high burst damage, Inv should perform better simply because Willpower partially relies on fixing damage after it occurs instead of preventing it (and Willpower adds 20% to your hit points all the time, vs. Inv adding 40% in spikes). But I admit I have yet to actually see a case in game where I felt that Willpower fell down in a a situation where Invulnerability did not -- this is armchair theory only, and Willpower looks plenty rugged.
Shield is surprisingly durable, too. It has lesser resistances but they do exist, which creates some degree of layering, and it has a fine taunt aura (augmented by the small debuff from AAO, it should be a higher threat value than Invulnerability's, and it lasts much longer than the little ticks of WIllpower's).
The only caveat I have to add to the idea of Dark is that any defense you add to it with IOs may be brushed aside by debuffs or to-hit buffs in some of the endgame content. Otherwise it's a very well-rounded set.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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If you don't care about offense, Stone works fine. The movement speed penalty is a non-issue with a few IO set bonuses. I have a standardized template that I share with anyone who requests a Stone Tanker build. It includes more than enough movement speed and soft caps all but psionic which is about 30%. It can be adapted to work with any secondary. Let me know if you will still consider Stone Armor and I'll re-post the build.|
Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
Stone - This is out, I find it too slow unless I rely on Teleport or a Kin. It just isn't fun for me. I do recognize it is a great tank, but I want to enjoy my character.
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| Fire - Out, I like it for offense, feel it is squishy (but that's from me trying it on scrappers and brutes, possibly). I heard Toxic is nasty in the new TFs which I have not tried, having just returned from hiatus. I do not remember if Healing Flames Toxic RES stacked, but if it did that would technically be in favor. |
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| WP - I love WP, this is a contender for me. I usually play it on scrappers/brutes, for ease and enjoyment, but I am under the impression it has weak aggro. That can, of course, be made up with a good secondary, but I appreciate a solid taunt aura. If I am wrong on this, please correct me. I love the regen, the decent S/L/Psi resist, etc. I can bring my scrappers to cap S/L/M def on /WP, so as a tank with better weave numbers it should be easier and possible to maybe cap some of the other types as well with careful slotting. |
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| Inv - Didn't like it back in the day, seriously considering it now. I put together an Inv/Kin build which is at home, had great numbers and was fairly happy with it. I'm not sure how the set performs at 50 compared to others, but the outlook appears good. No clue on how the aggro tools are, though. |
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| SD - Mostly out for reasons similar to Fire. Not as squishy, IMO, but I prefer it in an offensive position. Love it on a scrapper, not interested for tanking purposes. I can appreciate the tools it brings and ease of positional capping, but I'm not sure it is what I'm looking for. I would be open to suggestions on it, though. |
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| Ice - I know I said I prefer RES sets, but I have a place in my heart for Ice. Ice/Ice to be specific, especially since I read that Ice melee got a damage buff. My main concern is the absolute lack of RES aside from Tough, maxed Cold, and a smidgen of Fire and Toxic. Love the ease of capping SLEN and the threat tools, though. I hear bad things about this set at high level play in regards to it being smooshed without having backup from, say, Therm and/or Son. |
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| Elec - I am completely clueless on this set. On paper it doesn't seem bad. It just appears to be one of those sets I don't hear much about in either direction. I do think sapping is cool, though. |
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| Dark Armor - I used to have no interest in this set for any character... Until I started reading Dechs Kaison's posts. That man is a convincing person, to be honest. The numbers seem decent, although the set appears to be one that is IO hungry. Which, again, given my pursuit isn't an issue. I like the control tools, they're neat. Cloak of Darkness concerns me from a tank perspective. Dark Regen looks neat, and I like the idea of having Soul Transfer. |
Don't worry too much about toxic resistance. It is only in one of the new task forces and there are other ways around it, like confusing the critters or going straight for the towers. We still haven't seen the other nine Incarnate slots or the content that comes with them.
After playing a DA tanker, I would probably reroll to a Electric Armor if I had the time. Negative damage is almost nonexistent so far. Electric and Dark have the most resistances to the common damage types if you exclude Stone Armor. Invulnerability is great against S/L but falls apart when facing defense debuffs and a non-physical damage type.
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I hesitate to reply because I know I will be blasted for my comments. I am not a numbers cruncher and can only tell you my experiences. My 50 invul tank is as tough as anything I have played with the exception of Stone. I haven't ever found that I needed more resistance than I have had (and I have tanked more TFs than I can count, including "MO" TFs).|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Invulnerability is really only good against smashing and lethal damage. Against anything else, the resistance is poor. Psionic and toxic damage will hurt a lot. It is more difficult to slot for Psi defense in Invulnerability due to needing to slot for more defense than a Granite Tanker needs to reach the soft caps on everything else. Ice is about the same as Shield Defense, except you aren't protected against fire, cold, psionic, or toxic damage. You will also die quickly to defense debuffs. |
Ice can be difficult to play, but once I was mid-40s I could rock it out. I have done several ITFs where defense debuffs are rampant, and have had no issues at all.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
Would you post the Stone build? I am curious to see your template. What sort of movement speed are we talking?
Regarding WP/: I stick Taunt in any Tanker build I put together in mids, aside from the fact I think it is good to have for what it does, it holds some nice sets.
I'm probably going to throw together a few different builds (DA, ElM, SD and WP most likely, maybe fiery too). I actually already tossed together DA/Kin while I was sitting around. I think I'll drop Inv/ and, begrudgingly, Ice/ from my considerations. I love Ice thematically, but unless it gained some DDR or RES, I think it just isn't worth it.
Am willing to give fiery, stone and SD another look, though.
I can understand why you didn't like Stone, I agree that the set isn't for everyone. It has unmatched durability at the cost of mobility, recharge and damage. I've played it to 50 twice and enjoyed it but I have to admit it isn't my first choice when I'm grabbing a tanker to play.
Invuln is good now even on SO's and becomes outstanding with moderate IO investment... second only to Stone in my experience. It has three strong layers of protection, first defense followed by resistance and finally the massive heal/HP buff of Dull Pain. Most of the time I'll only need Dull Pain once or maybe twice in a TF and I only need Aid Self for highly limited situations like tanking the tower buffed Lord Recluse. The so called "Psi hole" is way more hype than reality; I've tanked all four of the AV's plus Reichsman on the Kahn TF simultaneously and never had an issue, even with the two Psi AV's.
Shield can be a very good set, my Shield/Fire tank is only a bit less durable than my Inv/Stone and it has considerably greater damage output. It's dirt cheap to softcap if you take Tough/Weave and can be done fairly easily without the fighting pool. I've tanked the ITF, LGTF and Kahn on my Shield without any issues. The only STF I've taken him on so far we had a Stone tank also on the team so I let him handle LR. I know I can do it with that tank; I've run STF's with Shield tankers before.
I don't have a lot of experience with the other sets; I've an old Fire/Fire tanker in the mid-30's I haven't played in years as well as Dark/Elec and Ice/Elec tankers in the 20's. I'm cautiously optimistic about the Ice/Elec tank based on his performance so far; I hate to admit it but the Dark/Elec is a monkey baby so I haven't really gotten a feel for him yet. I've played that Ice/Elec out the last 6 levels (yeah, I monkey'd him up to 22, bad tanker, no banana) and I'm impressed with him given that he's still young and on SO's.
<edit>
I have to say that CMA, my Inv/Stone tanker is certainly my favorite of the bunch. Granite Flame, my Stone/Fire, can best his durability although that's largely academic since very little bothers CMA. Call Me Frank, my Shield/Fire, easily out damages all my other tanks... his damage output actually approaches scrapper levels. On the last ITF I ran with him I never saw my def drop below around 42% and I only needed Aid Self twice, both times while tanking Romy before the first nictus dropped.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I think the only solution here is to... Buy more slots and make everything.
Joking aside, would you folks mind if I dumped a few of the builds I put together in Mids? It'd be asking for a fair bit of critique, but perhaps they'll turn out to be decent (albeit not cheap, I don't factor in purps/pvp but I do use Kinetic Combats and such from time to time) for other people to reference.
p.s. I love numbers and math when used in fun and impractical applications like video games.
Edit: By the way, curious about KM, for attacks I take the first 3 + burst & CS (obv power siphon and taunt as well). Are all of them necessary or can one be dropped in practice? I don't have a high level KM of any type, so don't have the answer myself.
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Any Tanker can do their job on any TF. Strategies and buffs make all the difference. Your chosen power set is almost never going to stop your team from completing a TF. The differences only become big enough to notice in very extreme situations, like tanking multiple AVs.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I hesitate to reply because I know I will be blasted for my comments. I am not a numbers cruncher and can only tell you my experiences. My 50 invul tank is as tough as anything I have played with the exception of Stone. I haven't ever found that I needed more resistance than I have had (and I have tanked more TFs than I can count, including "MO" TFs).
Ice can be difficult to play, but once I was mid-40s I could rock it out. I have done several ITFs where defense debuffs are rampant, and have had no issues at all. |
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Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
Would you post the Stone build? I am curious to see your template. What sort of movement speed are we talking?
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| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1376;650;1300;HEX;| |78DAA553CB6E1251183EDC0A5386C208845BE98D62C1EA08B1265E16C6D83631290| |951E24A25588F40C4199C19B5D58D0FE0CA85C6858946ADD53730BE8A97850F82FF| |E51413587A02DF37F3CD7F3BDF9969EC6DEA423CBF247CFA9541C775DBAD8E755F3| |A91C623AFE3F56D4B8485107916DB9BF29EB45C695EF76C4BB62F3B0F6C27AB1E35| |E4404A73BB2F9D7DBE36AE5A3DE948CB338F2E8E356D7B60B6E0E1D076B8BA4ED27| |6DFB3A4EBC6D44DB7E7F5AD6E9CEE7664E7AE74DC5E7F98DC1AF677CD2D4B3A5DE8| |D0713DE89485D9CEC2FF8706E083BF1885C4065CD485BFCE94012A8A6005684D045| |78966AA44C6AC506B043F58E2A7A6CA80E22325093101A50448F9053121D52BF458| |6093992744913DA67D22FD2951E219D16FC80AAB3A61AA9382CA1A2B01CDF163D0A| |CCD3424D21F1295212DAA32A394B9064A8C157F2C17C0A0B93C5381280401711ED1| |173FC5633085E189C14F8441C522A02459F1275F53C7D44BA657443E0848ABFE694| |A09809251FD336C6C961DCD1E679B2120C73503B9349D433EC194249AD7282E0316| |14B850A8C0562EB39525B6B2C45696D8CA55B6D280EA4555BDC8D517B8FA02575FE| |0EA7FC0DD4575508B3CE6129FFF5299899397534C5C230B33ADA8EDAED07673A094| |955226E51DB85C5106540EC9A5EA01D317A2AF703CEBEA00D6D9D4936CEA7B4835D| |596CD0FB49FD31F993E311D10D53F331D12A561841A67F96A34429D703E38F906EF| |4C29CDE0E43B5D0D8EBF96FF5ADFF4A35EDA35FC945A084D841B0837116E21DC46E| |820DC41D845187D1F67C7CFE140E7112E205C444827005E606418DFFE28828E1043| |98438823241092087984B708232D31FE6A79BD31205C4C6EB93665D68929A53EA56| |C4C2967A6947F3DFE02A9684582| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Look, you're entitled to your opinion, but have you slotted your Invulnerability Tanker? With JUST SOs, exemplared so they are penalized, mine rocked through Task Forces and arcs filled with energy and negative damage. |
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Invulnerability is really only good against smashing and lethal damage. Against anything else, the resistance is poor. Psionic and toxic damage will hurt a lot. It is more difficult to slot for Psi defense in Invulnerability due to needing to slot for more defense than a Granite Tanker needs to reach the soft caps on everything else.
... Invulnerability is great against S/L but falls apart when facing defense debuffs and a non-physical damage type. |
Invuln has 50% defense debuff resistance. It's not capped, but if you have a few percent extra defense as a buffer you'll be fine. Mine is currently sporting 50% s/l/e/n defense with one foe in range, and never experiences a cascading defense failure. Sure, on the ITF, the Cimerorans knock my defense down some, but it keeps coming back up as their debuffs wear off. Typically it seesaws around 50% in crowds, but when everything goes wrong at once, it's plunged to 38%, at which point I pretty much do nothing ut keep punching and watch it climb back up before I take appreciable damage.
I was in an ITF when the Nictus ambush hit us and killed everyone else. I was surrounded by more negative-energy attackers than the aggro cap, AND defense-debuffing Romans...my defense should have been debuffed and then poorly-resisted negative damage should have killed me. Instead I cycled through Dull Pain three times (and it's nowhere near perma) and judiciously hit a green now and then, and was still fighting when the team returned from the hospital their second time.
Had it been any worse, I could have hit an inexpensive temp power or something.
I do concede I've had trouble facing multiple Ring Mistresses and Master Illusionists unassisted (testing x8 Carnie missions). I'm not sure that's anything to be ashamed of.
In practice, I simply have not found Invuln to be as limited as your description implies.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
To make things simple, I'll try to order the primaries by their potential endgame performance:
Defensive
Stone
Invulnerability
Willpower
Dark
Elec
Shield
Fire
Offensive
I.. don't know where to place Ice. It gives less offense than Elec and is also less survivable than Elec, IMO. Being an Elec fanboy I might be biased though.
Anyway, the list doesn't take into consideration specific situations (I don't care if your fire tanker can tank a fire farm better than an Invuln) but rather the game as a whole as I see it(TF's and tips). It also doesn't take into consideration the aggro management capacity of the sets(WP has aggro management issues, SD easily maintains aggro).
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
If you haven't, already, you might wish to read these two guides:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=2706481
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=208495
They each talk about strengths and weaknesses of Tanker Primaries, as well as looking at the way they can be played for maximal utility.
Be Well!
Fireheart
so go with Inv, WP, then elec in that order.
I put together an Inv/KM and WP/DB (I think the AOEs + taunt in DB would help compensate for WP's poor aggro aura). I have a DA/KM on my laptop, but too tired to dig it out. I can post that tomorrow if I am happy with it upon second look.
Here are the chunks for the two builds above. WP/DB first, Inv/KM next. DA is going to either be /KM, /Stone or /Mace most likely. I don't mind redraw.
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Happy with the SLEN, not cheap with the Kinetic Combats. My issue with /DB on a tanker is that you take LITERALLY EVERY POWER if you want to run AV/Sweep. Technically BF isn't necessary for those but... why skip it? Psi is within small purple and so are F/C. As a bonus, melee is near cap too.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1577;757;1514;HEX;| |78DAA554596F5241149ECB520A5C0A94D2D205DAD285420B2D5113974413AD269A6| |2E8624DB42DB9B6634BBC5EF042A37DF307F8E48B4FBE19137F82F1EFB836ADFAEE| |723DCB409BF02881EF9B3973CE9C6FE69CA1F46C5117E2F915A1E9D74CA3D1A8AC1| |9D62369FB6E1BCD7DDB30854F0891605B65513E94564316EE564DB35E7B2AEDD642| |499A521616F70DB372D5347664237AD3DA93B6B49A85D6402FD76A6661491AF5AAB| |51BA2C98DEAEE5E1366E1D6D28EB41B7BD57A80E6AB752977A2D7EBD5ED42F9C096| |9592D1684AFB20017ACEC1EF931F40839F70DC220D838C70A598C689BA27881CF41| |3CAAF0C941673CB4C2B44F955221150DB09C7AB6D080CEDAA1045B688C6378932F7| |89B2F788348872AB2837BBE73838CFEEF3EC5E64F7226FF505347959BBCB1B87415| |174F5110522445FC1C1A7A187A3F926059ABA995C90D0AF12FA6D17C558447A8DA8| |A741D4F78468B24EF41142822A61709D52E87788E697893E8343881DB41067EA61F| |A062B61B5127E45BB455E121DC24A546D1AE553F4F2297AF9146ED01A535A63C710| |93147D4744FD874C8F05D290C55423F240549CCFEE8E73C1A6B960392E588E0BD60| |F9D39A0D20F70FA04A74F707A0D1C0639BD181CA2C37861EF61A56898CB35C22519| |E1028D71B9C6374E97DC0D1B2555AB25B9D552DC6A296EB514B79A07FC4695A2515| |634C68AC6585157803A8DD2A7B16F8A62C2A1BB9CF8C5F49BABF687E92F910FA2A6| |54D414474D73D4344765D82FC35145DE230A626694981916936531591613038759E| |530FB8E62E6DE12E5DF10A5C1A1A02A5F98A5FB9B673A82CA2FA89B5DC01A24C588| |A7FDCCE00B1FB1D461297BDA4F4C6864C97ADA8FF8BF3EEFF5D63EFE15B82DB1865| |0C617BD8EA30D844D9C6EE1C8C0D103846D9C3A1FF496D2F079147401E122C22584| |7804E0057AFA820041041D2184D08310468820C41086105E2338FE48FB0FC239C69| |49A3A7F9E6EF2FB69D30C997E9C9834ED1637D665BAE39FA757F8297AF8292E74DC| |75AEC352ECB09CEDB09CE9B09CDCF13FD520242F| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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You're three sets over the cap for the 1.125% HP boost (Luck of the Gambler 3 slot bonus, Crushing Impact 3 slot bonus). Also, the Mako's Bite set is primarily a Ranged defense set. I'd probably rethink that some; maybe shift some slots and pick up Laser Beam Eyes for a Thunderstrike set.|
Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
I put together an Inv/KM and WP/DB (I think the AOEs + taunt in DB would help compensate for WP's poor aggro aura). I have a DA/KM on my laptop, but too tired to dig it out. I can post that tomorrow if I am happy with it upon second look.
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It seems to me that you're working a bit too hard on F/C defense... that's a really uncommon damage type and I'd think you may find those slots more useful elsewhere. With both of the recovery uniques are Conserve Power and Physical Perfection going to be useful? I only have the Numina on CMA, my Inv/Stone, and I haven't found a use for CP since issue 19. I have it, but I haven't used it. Of course, I also have the Cardiac Alpha come to think of it.
I'm not a fan of spending slots on set mules; do you see yourself using Boxing as an attack? I leave it at the base slot personally and use those slots elsewhere. Remember that the Kin Combat set has gotten really pricey lately... most of it seems to be 100-200 million per recipe. The LOTG recharge is also pricey of course.
Unstoppable is entirely skippable on a soft capped Invuln with the single exception of the Apex TF. Those toxic Hydra heads in the first mission will drop you like a bad habit if you try to tank them. With Unstoppable you'll gain enough toxic resistance (there's no toxic defense) to survive. Or, you can have everyone hang back and take out the pylon from beyond the Hydra's range... when the pylon dies so do the hydra.
I've picked up the Medicine pool for Aid Self on my Invuln in my last respec; it comes in handy on the STF when I'm tanking the tower buffed LR. I'll admit I don't get a lot of use out of it any other time though so it's a tight call.
I don't know enough about KM to offer an informed opinion; I do know that a buddy of mine took a KM scrapper to 50 recently and was less than impressed with it's performance. Take that for what it's worth as I've never played the set but I did team with my buddy a fair amount of the trip to 50. To hear him talk I'm amazed he finished the character... although Monkeys had something to do with about half of his levels.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Responses in red.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
You're three sets over the cap for the 1.125% HP boost (Luck of the Gambler 3 slot bonus, Crushing Impact 3 slot bonus). Also, the Mako's Bite set is primarily a Ranged defense set. I'd probably rethink that some; maybe shift some slots and pick up Laser Beam Eyes for a Thunderstrike set.
I realize that. When I started taking the other sets I valued the extra global acc/rech over missing out on the other little bonus. The 3rd LOTGs are to bring the def up to ED and add some end reduction. As for Laser Beam Eyes and TStrike, good idea, will see how I can rework things to try that out! Funny thing is, I've done that in other builds and didn't even consider it here. It seems to me that you're working a bit too hard on F/C defense... that's a really uncommon damage type and I'd think you may find those slots more useful elsewhere. With both of the recovery uniques are Conserve Power and Physical Perfection going to be useful? I only have the Numina on CMA, my Inv/Stone, and I haven't found a use for CP since issue 19. I have it, but I haven't used it. Of course, I also have the Cardiac Alpha come to think of it. The F/C capping is a bad habit a friend gave me a while back. I can probably just put it to the point where 1 small purple caps it. I didn't plan on taking Cardiac, I hadn't actually figured out what I wanted, but without cardiac I will appreciate having the option of CP and the constant presence of another END proc. I'm not a fan of spending slots on set mules; do you see yourself using Boxing as an attack? I leave it at the base slot personally and use those slots elsewhere. Remember that the Kin Combat set has gotten really pricey lately... most of it seems to be 100-200 million per recipe. The LOTG recharge is also pricey of course. To each their own. I've also been considering merits and a-merits in mitigating the costs. I do appreciate the concern though! Unstoppable is entirely skippable on a soft capped Invuln with the single exception of the Apex TF. Those toxic Hydra heads in the first mission will drop you like a bad habit if you try to tank them. With Unstoppable you'll gain enough toxic resistance (there's no toxic defense) to survive. Or, you can have everyone hang back and take out the pylon from beyond the Hydra's range... when the pylon dies so do the hydra. Thanks for the insight here! I've picked up the Medicine pool for Aid Self on my Invuln in my last respec; it comes in handy on the STF when I'm tanking the tower buffed LR. I'll admit I don't get a lot of use out of it any other time though so it's a tight call. I never really believed in the Medicine pool. But, admittedly, it is a pool I've never really given a decent try over the years (especially before inherent fitness). I don't know enough about KM to offer an informed opinion; I do know that a buddy of mine took a KM scrapper to 50 recently and was less than impressed with it's performance. Take that for what it's worth as I've never played the set but I did team with my buddy a fair amount of the trip to 50. To hear him talk I'm amazed he finished the character... although Monkeys had something to do with about half of his levels. It seems some people love it and others hate it. I haven't decided yet, although I think I'd like it more on a scrapper. |
Appreciate the help, I'll rework the build this afternoon and see what I can do. With a different secondary, as well.
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About Aid Self, if you can get 3 slots for it slotting 3 heal/recharge gets you a 33% heal roughly every 12 seconds. With soft capped defenses it's interrupt time isn't a huge deal, but you could trade out one Heal/Recharge for an interrupt reduction and drop the heal to ~29% and the interrupt time to 3/4 of a second. CMA has it slotted with 3 heal/recharge and I don't have a lot of problem with the 1 second interrupt time.|
Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
Responses in red.
Appreciate the help, I'll rework the build this afternoon and see what I can do. With a different secondary, as well. |
Back in issue 6-8 I had it slotted out with 2 interrupt and if my timing was good I could get it off between tics of DOT. Of course Invuln was much squishier then so I took it in place of REl and REn.
I mainly picked it up with my i19 respec because I needed something useful with minimal slotting; I still had to do a lot of shuffling of slots to squeeze things in. Since I slot 3 Cytoskeleton HO's into Invincibility that saves me a couple of slots. I know that they've gone through the roof in price but I raided Hami 3 times a week from issue 4 until issue 9 so I have a ton of HO's in base storage. If you can get them they're, in my opinion, the best slotting for Invincibility maxing out def, tohit and endred in only 3 slots.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I'm not saying its a bad set. I just think it is a little overrated. As I pointed out earlier in different words, IOing out any Tanker primary can produce something capable of tanking any TF in the game. I think Invulnerability's popularity is partially due to the ease of leveling them because they get more S/L resistance and defense at lower levels than other Tanker primaries. They are also pretty tough without heavy INF investment.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
In practice, I simply have not found Invuln to be as limited as your description implies.
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Take a look at this list and you will see why I think Invulnerability is overrated:
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
To make things simple, I'll try to order the primaries by their potential endgame performance:
Defensive Stone Invulnerability Willpower Dark Elec Shield Fire |
What should we look at when evaluating Tankers then? Resistance is the primary form of mitigation when a hit gets through the defense, so that should be looked at first. Next, regeneration and healing powers will heal whatever damage you take after resistance mitigates it.
In order of resistance vs end-game content, I would rate the primaries in the following order. Remember that energy damage is almost as common as S/L.
Stone Armor
Electric Armor
Invulnerability
Dark Armor
Willpower
Fiery Aura
Shield Defense
Ice Armor
Now, if we take total HP/s into account, things move around a bit, but not much. Remember this includes healing powers as well as regeneration.
Stone Armor
Dark Armor
Electric Armor
Fiery Aura
Invulnerability
Willpower
Shield Defense
Ice Armor
Invulnerability has one of the weakest heals, so it drops a few ranks. It heals for a LOT when you activate it, but total HP/s of healing is about double that of slotted Health, but only if you get it perma'd.
My list assumes you will spend whatever you have to in order to make an awesome end-game Tanker. The quoted list holds true for players on a lower budget or just looking to play casually. IO sets, a good player behind the keyboard, and a good team make all the difference, in that order.
Remember, I'm not saying a certain set is ineffective. Any set can work. Only extreme situations bring out the differences in the sets and most players won't try to push their Tankers to the limits by searching for those extreme situations.
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This is an example of how choosing one's starting assumptions can derail one's analysis, IMHO. |
Originally Posted by Syntax42
I'm not saying its a bad set. I just think it is a little overrated. As I pointed out earlier in different words, IOing out any Tanker primary can produce something capable of tanking any TF in the game. I think Invulnerability's popularity is partially due to the ease of leveling them because they get more S/L resistance and defense at lower levels than other Tanker primaries. They are also pretty tough without heavy INF investment.
Take a look at this list and you will see why I think Invulnerability is overrated: First, think about how plentiful defense is. You can get significant defense buffs from four different Defender primaries which also exist in some form on Controllers and Corrupters. Set bonuses and pool powers have also made it possible to soft cap one category of defense, or spread your defense out to 32.5% in more categories so you can soft cap with one person's buffs or a small purple inspiration. All of this means you can take defense out of the equation when evaluating survivability because it is so easy to get defense on any Tanker primary. What should we look at when evaluating Tankers then? Resistance is the primary form of mitigation when a hit gets through the defense, so that should be looked at first. Next, regeneration and healing powers will heal whatever damage you take after resistance mitigates it. In order of resistance vs end-game content, I would rate the primaries in the following order. Remember that energy damage is almost as common as S/L. Stone Armor Electric Armor Invulnerability Dark Armor Willpower Fiery Aura Shield Defense Ice Armor Now, if we take total HP/s into account, things move around a bit, but not much. Remember this includes healing powers as well as regeneration. Stone Armor Dark Armor Electric Armor Fiery Aura Invulnerability Willpower Shield Defense Ice Armor Invulnerability has one of the weakest heals, so it drops a few ranks. It heals for a LOT when you activate it, but total HP/s of healing is about double that of slotted Health, but only if you get it perma'd. My list assumes you will spend whatever you have to in order to make an awesome end-game Tanker. The quoted list holds true for players on a lower budget or just looking to play casually. IO sets, a good player behind the keyboard, and a good team make all the difference, in that order. Remember, I'm not saying a certain set is ineffective. Any set can work. Only extreme situations bring out the differences in the sets and most players won't try to push their Tankers to the limits by searching for those extreme situations. |
"Defense being plentiful" somehow results in Dark, Fire and Electric being considered the equals of Invulnerability for defense, when they are not, in my game experience. Lacking any sort of defense debuff protection, they are quite vulnerable to debuffs causing cascading defense failure. I have and love a Fire Tanker with a defense build, but that defense plunges into the negative much, much, much more often than my Invulnerability Tanker's life drops due to exotic damage types.
Also I question whether energy damage is "nearly as common" as smashing and lethal in the end game. There's so much smashing and lethal damage; it seems like practically every group has its version of the Rikti swords.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Syntax42:
I'd also take into account some of the other defensive benefits of the primaries (which applies more to general killing of spawns and not as much AVs in some cases). I wouldn't say they could be exactly quantified into a single list since the value varies from situation to situation.
DA obviously carries the fears and stuns, as well as the -ToHit debuff in fear.
Elec saps everything nearby, albeit rather slowly unless you power sink them.
Ice reduces damage done, recharge and also saps but is a bit more limited than Elec in the sapping role.
Shield reduces damage done with AAO, and you can technically say Shield Charge is defensive with KD (and, y'know, killing things).
Stone, uh, immobilizes things and slows them.. but I wouldn't really count that.
WP taps them all with short lived -ToHit debuffs, which I think can go to like 5%ish with enhancements.
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A ToHit debuff is exactly equivalent to the same amount of defense.|
Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
Syntax42:
I'd also take into account some of the other defensive benefits of the primaries (which applies more to general killing of spawns and not as much AVs in some cases). I wouldn't say they could be exactly quantified into a single list since the value varies from situation to situation. DA obviously carries the fears and stuns, as well as the -ToHit debuff in fear. Elec saps everything nearby, albeit rather slowly unless you power sink them. Ice reduces damage done, recharge and also saps but is a bit more limited than Elec in the sapping role. Shield reduces damage done with AAO, and you can technically say Shield Charge is defensive with KD (and, y'know, killing things). Stone, uh, immobilizes things and slows them.. but I wouldn't really count that. WP taps them all with short lived -ToHit debuffs, which I think can go to like 5%ish with enhancements. |
Draining endurance doesn't work on AVs unless you get a lot of endurance drains and a -recovery debuff.
Ice Armor's damage debuff is approximately equivalent to resistance, but 14% isn't much.
Knockdowns are great for mitigating damage, but one every 30 seconds is not enough to tip the scales. Most knockdowns are in the Tanker secondaries instead of primaries.
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...with a few exceptions. Most notably is that the tohit debuff can be resisted, and especially so by AVs.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
A ToHit debuff is exactly equivalent to the same amount of defense.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
Ice Armor's damage debuff is approximately equivalent to resistance, but 14% isn't much.
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35% defense and 10% tohit debuff is equivalent to the softcap, or 90% total mitigation.
70% resistance and 20% damage debuff is actually 0.70 * 0.20 = 0.14, or 86% total mitigation.
Where to now?
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Hence why I said the value varies from situation to situation. :P|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
A ToHit debuff is exactly equivalent to the same amount of defense.
Draining endurance doesn't work on AVs unless you get a lot of endurance drains and a -recovery debuff. Ice Armor's damage debuff is approximately equivalent to resistance, but 14% isn't much. Knockdowns are great for mitigating damage, but one every 30 seconds is not enough to tip the scales. Most knockdowns are in the Tanker secondaries instead of primaries. |
SC might let you kill a few minions before they retaliate if coupled with another AOE immediately after. Especially with teammates present.
Edit: I realize SCing in means less damage from no AAO saturation. I'd save that for situations where you have a rather nasty spawn that the initial interrupt would be good for possibly neutralizing some of the threat.
The damage debuff also helps your group in the case of AOEs.
I prefer to view ToHit debuffs in sets as an extra buffer against cascading failure.
I wouldn't even consider sapping an AV unless you have teammates to support that endeavor.
Willpower is slightly superior to Inv.
Like some people have said, on paper, they might seem even but on actual gameplay, I've never been on a situation in which my WP died and my INV wouldn't. BUT, I've seen the opposite, I've died on my INV on situations that with my WP I wouldn't have.
Regen is your friend.
First, I'd like to preface with saying that I am not asking for a build. I'm rather independent when it comes to working on builds, aside from asking for input after I've put it together. Also, I know there are probably more posts like mine, but different people want different things.
I've played this game for years (ignore the join date, 3rd account) and tankers are one of the few things I never really got into. I made Inv/ way, way back in the day, but deleted it after early frustration. I brought Stone and Ice to 30 and deleted both of them. I'd like to give it another go since things have changed over the years. Some of the power sets are right out for me, I know I don't want to play them. The hard part is figuring out what I DO want to play. I could make one of each kind, but I'm looking to get focus.
I'm looking for a tank that can handle the majority of situations well. Cost isn't a massive concern, because costs are simply a matter of time. With that said, I don't generally take purples or PVP IOs into account when it comes to building. I will say I am a junkie for making characters cap an important type or position, though, and I have a bit of preference for RES sets.
Stone - This is out, I find it too slow unless I rely on Teleport or a Kin. It just isn't fun for me. I do recognize it is a great tank, but I want to enjoy my character.
Fire - Out, I like it for offense, feel it is squishy (but that's from me trying it on scrappers and brutes, possibly). I heard Toxic is nasty in the new TFs which I have not tried, having just returned from hiatus. I do not remember if Healing Flames Toxic RES stacked, but if it did that would technically be in favor.
WP - I love WP, this is a contender for me. I usually play it on scrappers/brutes, for ease and enjoyment, but I am under the impression it has weak aggro. That can, of course, be made up with a good secondary, but I appreciate a solid taunt aura. If I am wrong on this, please correct me. I love the regen, the decent S/L/Psi resist, etc. I can bring my scrappers to cap S/L/M def on /WP, so as a tank with better weave numbers it should be easier and possible to maybe cap some of the other types as well with careful slotting.
Inv - Didn't like it back in the day, seriously considering it now. I put together an Inv/Kin build which is at home, had great numbers and was fairly happy with it. I'm not sure how the set performs at 50 compared to others, but the outlook appears good. No clue on how the aggro tools are, though.
SD - Mostly out for reasons similar to Fire. Not as squishy, IMO, but I prefer it in an offensive position. Love it on a scrapper, not interested for tanking purposes. I can appreciate the tools it brings and ease of positional capping, but I'm not sure it is what I'm looking for. I would be open to suggestions on it, though.
Ice - I know I said I prefer RES sets, but I have a place in my heart for Ice. Ice/Ice to be specific, especially since I read that Ice melee got a damage buff. My main concern is the absolute lack of RES aside from Tough, maxed Cold, and a smidgen of Fire and Toxic. Love the ease of capping SLEN and the threat tools, though. I hear bad things about this set at high level play in regards to it being smooshed without having backup from, say, Therm and/or Son.
Elec - I am completely clueless on this set. On paper it doesn't seem bad. It just appears to be one of those sets I don't hear much about in either direction. I do think sapping is cool, though.
Dark Armor - I used to have no interest in this set for any character... Until I started reading Dechs Kaison's posts. That man is a convincing person, to be honest. The numbers seem decent, although the set appears to be one that is IO hungry. Which, again, given my pursuit isn't an issue. I like the control tools, they're neat. Cloak of Darkness concerns me from a tank perspective. Dark Regen looks neat, and I like the idea of having Soul Transfer.
For reference, the secondaries I am considering are DM (mostly for the heal), KM (-Dmg, KD in burst), Ice (ice patch, decent aoe), Stone (KD and stun to stack w/ some set), Mace (see stone).
Edit: I also considered DB, the multiple KDs in the set look AWESOME, but the main thing stopping me from DB is being forced into Nimble Slash.
Thanks for having a look, and I appreciate any insight. Once I have a handle on what I want I'll probably take a run through Mids and put something together.