OV_RealDark

Late reply, but just wanted to add a little regarding the soft-cap stuff (which has been well answered already):
In addition to defense debuffs the other thing you may notice is tohit buffs on your enemies. They are less prevalent, but they are more likely to affect you when in play.

For example, lots of lethal damage attacks have -def, however they have to hit you to apply. Any +tohit on your opponents applies automatically. If you have 45% defense, and an enemy gets a +5% tohit bonus it will double the damage they do to you (on average). If you have 52% defense and they get the same bonus it will make no difference. This is very rare though.

Note another benefit the 52% defense delivers is more resistance to cascade failure: if you get hit by one lethal attack it is likely to do -5% defense. At the softcap this results in doubling the chance you get hit again (e.g. from 5% to 10% for a minion), which increases the chance you get hit again... At 52% the first one off hit does not increase the chance of further hits.

A little bit over the softcap will probably be noticeable over the career of a hero, however a lot of the time it makes no difference, and there are alternative mitigations to deal with such situations - for example regen, heal, insipirations etc. It's a decision to make on cost vs. benefit.

When I use it at work - which is where I mainly use it... (not sure what that says about me!). Res is 1280 * 1024.

On my laptop, which I often use it on, 1280 * 800.
On my main computer, I rarely use the main screen which is 1680 * 1050, as this has CoH on it, I sometimes use Hero Planner on the second screen, which is 1440 * 900.

I normally aim my software for 1024*768, as that's the minimum my customers have. Also, you'll see that works with most of the resolutions people have posted here.

[ QUOTE ]
Why should merits be based on risk? especially since we already have xp based on risk, it makes more sense to reward soemthing else, and merits are clearly based on time spent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question, and apologies my wording made it sound like I was making a statement of fact, what I meant was "this is what I believe merits should be based upon". The reason I believe this is, as I mentioned, risk rewards more forms of skill including running content as fast as possible.

[ QUOTE ]
You have always been rewarded for doing your own arcs. Nothing has changed here. I was hoping it might at least encorage PUGs to do something other than endless scanner missions, but no, it's still scanner missions. Absolutely no evidence that merits have changed behavior in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]
The previous rewards were not exclusive to the arc owner though. Yes the arc owner got a bonus, but it was just that, a bonus, you get an SO, but you might equally get an SO drop during the mission as any member of the team. Now they are being given rewards in a system that their team is not. Also I said that it encourages certain types of game play, that doesn't mean that it has already effected a behaviour change across the player population.

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm just stating my opinion here, I'm not trying to present these things as facts.

Merits are designed specifically to encourage people to stay in the game "working" towards a goal. They are intentionally grind orientated. Their clear goal is to keep people subscribed for longer. This is not necessarily a bad thing, for people who like to feel they have expended significant effort to achieve a significant reward they are perfect.

Where they go wrong is that they balanced them on time taken to run content, when they should be measured against risk faced - which by the way rewards people for their skill and is fair to people who do and don't equate skill to the speed they can complete content in.

XP earned (relative to level of course) is a measure of risk, if it is not a measure of risk, then xp is broken. This is what merits should be based upon.

Additionally merits for story arc owners does two things:
1) Encourages soloing - by adding a reward for doing your own arcs
2) Encourages teams to do the same missions, usually ones that everyone can get easily and keep in synch (e.g. frostfire arc). This will actually reduce the range of content people play, by rewarding certain missions more than others (in effect).

It is anything that can drop a level 50 recipe.

Level 47's can drop a level 50 recipe, since mobs can drop recipe's around their own level, rather than just their own level.

I don't know how it picks the level to drop them though.

Thread's a few days old, but I was just perusing the US version and was reminded of some "player interaction" I saw in a TF2 game:

Basically there was a guy on my team doing rather well, and repeatedly destroying a certain player on the other team. He gets the usual stream of abuse thrown at him:
"OMG <name> U fuggin hax man this is total BS, suc ur mum" ... etc.

I happen to be fighting next to the guy, who just pauses for a second or so, and then the funniest thing (in the context) I've seen pops up on the screen (he had admin access):
"You love it <female dog>!"

Voice comms was filled with laughter.

Ah interviews, always followed by mass-misinterpretation and then mass-hysteria.

My interpretation of Posi's comment:
"it can and should stand on its own"
meaning
"it's such a great feature it could stand on its own, and it should be that good when we deliver it"

Can we keep the misinterpretation of the numbers to the numbers thread? That way we can keep crying doom over a large number of assumptions based on a single comment made off the cuff by a developer during an interview!

Wouldn't it make sense to look to the xp reward system for inspiration? Yes it has a few flaws, and gets exploited a bit, but whatever system you invent will inevitably have the same problems and for the large part, the xp reward system is very fair and it encourages teaming.

I.e. make merit rewards operate the same way as xp mission bonuses. Everyone gets some for mission completion, and the story arc owner gets a bonus at the end of the story arc. Note you might have to lower the value of merits for this to work properly, but that's not hard, you just increase the merit cost of everything.

I hope it's like team xp - i.e. it's split between the team, with a bonus for extra members in the in team (obviously level should make no difference though).

In fact, I'm sure they'll just re-use that part of the code, which is no doubt well commented, modular and nicely encapsulated and tested, right?.. right?...

There's loads of different uses for this.

You could have one build with priority on offence, and another with defences prioritised, then choose depending on the team make-up.

You could have one regular build, and another geared for a specific TF/SF or enemy group (e.g. one that sacrifices some damage resists, to increase resistance against end drain).

You could have a PvP and a PvE build.

SOA and Khelds get obvious benefits.

You could have a team focussed and a solo focused build.

You could have a level 50 build and an exemp-friendly build.

If you really wanted, you could have a comedy build where you pick all the 'duff' powers and random power pools just for the hell of it. That could represent your toon's alter ego?

"Could be worse, could be raining, it never rains" - ped in Nerva.

TT: maneuversreseaes (how u spell?) sucks. It costs too much end and not def, should be 25% def like a purple inspire.

High level warshades are weak and don't do enough damage - they need a build up power in nova because changing forms takes too long and the mobs are all defeat on my farms when I have done mires. Also human powers should work in forms, because human form is already way overpowered compared to forms.

Spines/fire scrappers need more AoE damage. Burning aura and quills sound like they would do lots of damage, but actually they don't because BA makes mobs run away and then quills slows them so they get stuck in a big area all outside of range of spine burst. I suggest that corners are buffed to make this build work otherwise it is really underpowered compared to like /invuln with it's uber unyielding/tough hide combination.

PB's need more KB because it's their only mitigation. Photon seekers should have their damage reduced and huge KB, plus they need their old AI back.

Def is too uber because even if one hit gets through you never get hit again, so more enemy attacks should have -def. Think about WP's heightened senses for instance, it's not like mobs hit often hit for lethal damage and do massive amounts of -def to all, totally negating the exotic damage type def from it. This would also help make Elude from SR not be pointless because at the moment SR is such an easy build (you don't need all the powers).

Also - nerf regen again.

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Its different to run away to save your life. And its different to run at the safe zone to save your life. IMO anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true.

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with playing to your strengths but I wouldn't class running to a ship when being attacked sensible. Everyone seems to do it and would be one of the issues I would say there is with pvp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Devils advocate:
I wouldn't class standing around and getting defeated as sensible.
/Devils advocate

In the situations we're talking about it's team vs team - if you hang about when you've clearly been called as the target you're going to get defeated, especially as a squishy defender.
I can understand why it's frustrating though, but come on who doesn't run away when they're in trouble?
I had an MM attacking me yesterday, where he send in his pets, as soon as I found him and targeted him he would start tp'ing away, phase shift, I still got him a few times though, as soon as he slipped up. I don't see anything wrong with this playstyle even though it was quite annoying on the receiving end.

I can't think, of the top of my head, of any PvP games where you don't expect people to run away when they're in trouble. There is a difference when it's just prolonging the inevitable (for example; in counterstrike the last CT hiding in a corner when the bomb is ticking down), but I don't think that's the case here.

I discovered that attacking someone by yourself when they are taking turrets is ganking them - even if they have a heavy and you don't and the turrets are neutral!

Also a Elude, insps or buffs are unfair.

It makes no difference what you do tbh - whenever you defeat anyone in a PvP zone there's a good chance they'll be taking a trip in the waaaaambulance.

Yes I agree entirely with your post

I think a classic example is someone saying to themselves "I'm probably going to PvP in warburg and RV, and I'll do some exemping to help friends (mostly high level)"
In that case I'd personally go for level 41 set IOs (if the build could benefit from set bonuses significantly) and take the small hit in performance at 50.

And your last point about chaging to the level 50 MB IO is a very good one, I never even thought about that, but it seems so obvious now!

Well I think the OP was well answered by Maelwys' first post.

Back to the discussion
The scalar's info is very interesting, thanks for that - I didn't realise it was such a steep curve.
IO's add a new twist to it, because they *might* do an odd thing (lets look at common IOs for simplicity):
1) Slot a level 30 at level 30, and get the full bonus from it (34.8%).
2) Level up to 50 - all the while getting the 34.8% enhancenment
3) Go to Sirens (ex to 30)
What bonus do you get, 34.8% or 32.5% (34.8*0.935)?

[ QUOTE ]
Ayes... but at 50 you have access to all levels of set enhancements. The level 1-30 ones don't get denied to a level 50, the 50 can still slot them and get just as much use out of them as a level 30 if they so wish.

[/ QUOTE ]
True.
I'm mentioning it because it means you have access to everything at 30 as well as at 50. My personal feeing is that level 32 (or 30 if you want to PvP in sirens) is a good time to consider slotting IO sets.


[ QUOTE ]
That's actually one of the hardest builds I've seen to tweak since all the desired set bonuses are from 6-slotted sets. That means there's no room to diversify between sets which is where high level IOs would shine...

[/ QUOTE ]
Also true - and it may be the reason why I have a bias towards lower level (e.g. level 35) IO set enhancements, as this is the only build I have actually been playing around with on live.

In the examples you give, yes taking the level 50's would be the best thing to do... if you only had one melee attack. However what happens if you have 2 or 3?

Lets say that you are going to be PvPing in Sirens. I would therefore use level 33 set IOs. Also I would take a slightly different slotting - modifying the second of your options, as I would like the 5% recharge bonus from taking one more CI - it would probably be useful for my other attacks and hasten etc:

CI: Acc/Dam
CI: Dam/Rech
CI: Acc/Dam/Rech
CI: Acc/Dam/EndRdx
CI: Dam/End/EndRdx
MB: Acc/Dam/EndRdx/Rech

This gives pre-ED totals of:
74 Acc, 114 Dam, 52 EndRdx, and 74 Rech (rounded)
Now I ex down to 30 so:
69 Acc, 107 Dam, 49 EndRdx and 69 Rech (rounded)
ED only affects Dam and that is probably going to be about 96%
However because I am using level 33s I still get my set bonuses:
Two melee attacks
83 Acc, 96 Dam, 49 EndRdx and 79 Rech
Three melee attacks
90 Acc, 96 Dam, 49 EndRdx and 84 Rech

If I slot level 50s I get (after ex scaling and ED):
80 (87.4*0.935*ED) Acc, 99 Dam, 60 EndRdx, 80 Rech

So you can see that if I stack up my set bonuses I'm going to start seeing advantages.

Factor in that these bonuses will apply to all your powers, not just the melee attacks, and you can stack up set bonuses from elsewhere, and I think you will be able to get more out of having 33s and 50s

I realise that this isn't the set you chose, but hopefully you can see my point.
Another example is that for the Kat/SR build I showed, when EX to warburg all the attacks will have acc and recharge well over 100%, and damage around or over 100%. This would simply not be possible with level 50 IOs, as a fair bit of it is comming from the set bonuses.

[ QUOTE ]

At a quick glance, whilst you could get perma-Hasten by dropping some power picks, I can get about the equivilant defence values and considerably higher +recharge (there are also 5x 7.5% +recharge LOTGs in the build not included in the listing below) by using level 50 set IOs.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's nothing to do with them being level 50 though, that's just because you have used different sets.

All the sets are available at level 35, giving you the same set bonus, but still working when exemped down to 32 or above.

Btw I would always use level 50 common IOs, I just can't be bothered to faff around with the builder to get it to do that! I should have qualified my statement to say "feel free to change the set IOs to level 50..."

Nice Build btw

Argg the quoting horribleness indeed, stupid tiny box they give us, don't they realise we have much to discuss!

[ QUOTE ]
Which are irrelevant if you exemplar. Only the non-set-bonus global IOs apply when exemplared.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is only the case if your set enhancements are 3 levels higher than you or more.
So my level 35 set enhancements will still give me a set bonus even when I exemp down to level 32.
There was a bug that meant they only worked at the level you slotted them in, but the devs fixed this.


[ QUOTE ]
generally it'll be better to aim for enhancement values FIRST.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree, I always make sure I'm getting the proper enhancement bonus before I worry about what set bonuses can do. Whats the point in getting a 2% set bonus to damage if you're only getting a 50% dam enhancement in your main attack!


[ QUOTE ]

It has relevance in the context of your previous post, you seemed to be implying that instead of waiting to use level 50 set IOs, choosing your set IOs at level 25-30 was better. You then argued that HOs/Common IOs were just as effective. HOs are not available at level 25-30, so there is no valid comparison. If you wish to use HOs you will need to wait until level 50, when you might as well use level 50 set IOs along with those HOs (rather than combine level 50 HOs with the weaker level 25-30 set IOs).

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry this wasn't what I meant to imply. There are two things:
1) Why wait to level 50 for set enhancements when you can use them on your set enhancements on your level 30 character? (we've probably been over this one enough by now to have the answer)
2) If you are only using level 50 set IOs and you don't care about set bonuses, then you should be using HOs and common IOs to get the max benefit. This is because an HOs overall enhancement is greater than any set enhancement IOs apart from the 4 aspect ones.


[ QUOTE ]
+ If you wish to use poorer performing, cheaper enhancements to hit the ED cap, you might as well use only common IOs since they can quite happily accomplish this and are cheaper than set IOs at any level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not always true:
1) Sometimes set IOs are cheaper than same level common IOs it depends on their popularity (often the recipies are much cheaper as the common ones can be sold to NPCs for more than the set ones). However I will conceed that they are generally more expensive over all.
2) Set IOs are multi aspect, I can use them to get a better overall enhancement than common IOs can, and still reach the ED cap, even when the IOs are level 30. Example:
full set of crushing impact @ 30:
97.6% dam
56.55% acc/end/rech
common IOs at 30 (acc/acc/dam/dam/dam/rech)
95.5% dam
69% acc
34.8% rech
That's worse over all even if we don't count endurance reduction. That doesn't use enhacements from different sets (which could help) and doesn't count the set bonuses.

[ QUOTE ]
+ The lower level set IOs' enhancement bonuses are STILL affected by exemplar rules and STILL give worse bonuses than their high level counterparts. Higher level enhancements will let you boost your overall enhancement % spread for better overall performance, as well as let you creep slightly over the ED cap so that when exemplaring you still get nearly all the bonuses possible from ED. This is the same reason that many level 50 pvp toons slotted their powers with the equivilant of 4 accuracy/4 damage SOs if they intended to participate in PvP at level 30.

[/ QUOTE ]
AFAIK the scaling only comes into play below level 32, at level 30 it will be a small effect. If you have level 33 or lower sets then you still keep you set bonuses. So in the case of PvPing at level 30, I still think that having set bonuses available would make a greater difference than the enhancement boost from 33-50 IOs.
At very low levels of exemping I agree you would be better with the highest level IOs you could get.


[ QUOTE ]
I would. Higher % bonuses. Higher "set bonus" values. More options to choose from in each set. More set combinations available. Cost is largely irrelevant since we're dealing with in-game 'monopoly money' and it's relatively easy to make 10-20 million inf in an evening if you know what you're doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
You get the same set bonuses from level 35 set IOs that you do from level 50 ones. To my knowledge there are no set enhancements at level 50 that are not available at level 30. In addition there are considerably more available at level 30 that are not available at 50 (sets that stop at 30 or 40 for example).
Earlier you argued that spending inf slotting set IOs at lower level as it was a waste of inf, now you are saying that inf is largely irrelevent, this is a bit contradictory.


[ QUOTE ]
A Character doesn't just end at level 50 either, for most of my toons they simply hit peak effectiveness and IOs boost that even more... Personally I wouldn't equip them with anything less than the absolute best build possible for what I intend that toon to do. That means optimum enhancment levels as a primary concern, and optimum set bonuses as a secondary concern. That means using the highest level enhancements avilable in each set. That means doing this at level 50.

[/ QUOTE ]
As unthing said this is largely a playstyle issue. I would suggest that people tend to spend more time leveling their characters than playing them at 50 on average though.
The key point here is "less than the absolute best build possible for what I intend that toon to do". If you are intending to play at level 50 exclusively then, yes, level 50 IOs (set or otherwise) will be the only choice.
As I have said before I believe you can do better using set bonuses than you can without them and if you wish to exemp then having IOs that still give you the set bonus when exemped would be a net benefit for the character (if my assumption that set bonuses can achieve more than enhancement bonus alone is correct).

[ QUOTE ]

No probs, glad it hasn't become too antagonistic on either side! Usually these "quote-wars" can descend into name calling if you're not careful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I still haven't figured a better way to discuss things on a point by point basis like this. It does often get ugly, but neither of us seem to be heading down that root

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and complete thread derailment... yep... nothing to see here...

[/ QUOTE ]
Thread? What thread? I never saw any thread anyhow...

Apologies for the thread derailment

For reference this is similar to my live build for my Kat/SR scrapper used in the examples.

I believe that due to set bonuses she is more powerful than any combination of powers or enhancements in PvE (ignore, if you will, the fighting vs medicine argument for this, also I would use a different build for PvP).

She has worked well from, and will exemp to 32 and above. For example she has nearly 42% ranged defense at level 32, which is unobtainable without set bonuses or severly gimping your build with all the power pool +defenses.

Feel free to see the difference between level 35 and level 50 IO's - I think it's pretty tiny compared to the many millions in crafting cost alone.

I realise that this is an individual case, but it's still up there for reference.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.153
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php

Lotusblade: Level 50 Mutation Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Sting of the Wasp -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:35(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:35(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(17)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(5), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(7), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(7), RedFtn-Def:35(13), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(15)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(9), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(9), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(11), RedFtn-Def:35(11), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(13)
Level 4: Agile -- LkGmblr-Def:35(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:35(45), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:35(45), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(46)
Level 6: Build Up -- RechRdx-I:35(A)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:35(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(27), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:35(31), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(34)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I:35(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:35(A), RechRdx-I:35(15), RechRdx-I:35(17)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth:35(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I:35(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:35(A), Numna-Heal:35(19), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx:35(27), Mrcl-Rcvry+:35(39), Mrcl-Heal:35(39)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:35(A), EndMod-I:35(21), EndMod-I:35(21)
Level 22: The Lotus Drops -- M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:35(A), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:35(23), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:35(23), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:35(25), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(25), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(31)
Level 24: Kick -- F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg:35(A)
Level 26: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx:30(43)
Level 28: Soaring Dragon -- T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:35(A), T'Death-Acc/Dmg:35(29), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:35(29), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(39), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(40), T'Death-Dam%:35(40)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:35(31), LkGmblr-Def:35(37), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:35(42), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:35(42)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:35(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:35(33), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:35(33), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:35(33), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(34), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(34)
Level 35: Evasion -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-Def:35(37), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(37)
Level 38: Elude -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:35(A), S'dpty-EndRdx/Rchg:35(40), S'dpty-Def/Rchg:35(42), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(43), S'dpty-Def:35(43)
Level 41: Quickness -- Run-I:35(A)
Level 44: Lucky -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:35(A), LkGmblr-Def:35(45), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:35(46), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(46)
Level 47: Focused Accuracy -- EndRdx-I:35(A), EndRdx-I:35(48), EndRdx-I:35(48), ToHit-I:35(48), ToHit-I:35(50), ToHit-I:35(50)
Level 49: Dodge -- DefBuff-I:35(A), DefBuff-I:35(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)


Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build.
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[ QUOTE ]
Typically I avoid worrying about set bonuses and focus on maximum effective value from enhancements.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you may not be realising the full potential of your character - set bonuses are not subject to ED and are globally applied as I have shown in the examples, they can increase your effectiveness beyond any enhancement combination in your powers.


[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can mix and match set IOs with Common IOs and HOs to increase performance... but even then HOs are only available at endgame (50) and Common IOs obtain maximum effectiveness at level 50 (endgame).

[/ QUOTE ]
In this specific case you are talking about using level 50 set IO's and not worrying about the set bonuses. I don't see how HOs only being available in the endgame (as the level 50 IOs are) has any relevance on the fact that they can offer an improvement over using level 50 set IOs alone?


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only case where you should use level 50 set IO's exclusively is if your build relies upon set bonuses and you never intend to play the toon below level 47.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I'd suggest that the only time you should bother slotting set IOs UNDER level 50 is when you want set bonuses when exemping. For all other purposes, slotting the same IO at a higher level would tease out higher enhancement numbers and therefore make the power better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hence why I used the word "exclusively" as in when you're using all level 50 set IOs, and no HOs or common IOs.
What about when you havent reached level 47 yet? Why should I play through 20 odd levels without set IO's, just because the level 50's are a little better (and negligibly so when you consider that you're probably going to be hitting ED with level 30's anyhow - see my red fortune example)?


[ QUOTE ]
Common level 25 or level 30 IOs are equivilant with SOs and perfectly fine for getting a toon to 50. Once there you'll have the best selection of enhancements available to you in order to completely min-max your build!

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this; at level 50 you do have the best selection available (e.g. all of them).


[ QUOTE ]
But if someone wants to shell out a load of inf on set IOs that they're just going to replace again when they hit 50, I'm not going to stop them!

[/ QUOTE ]
As I have already stated the lower level ones are cheaper - I have more inf now than I did when I started collecting set IOs.
On top of this I have a build that I will not be replacing with level 50s, because the level 50s will give me a tiny improvement compared to the cost. And going back to the exemping issue, the improvement will be so small that if I do exmp down I'll be considerably worse off than if I stick with my existing level 35 IOs.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Far from being a waste of inf, they are cheaper, nearly as effective and available more of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
But the enhancement values are still lower. They are therefore still LESS EFFECTIVE.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they will give a smaller enhancement bonus.
Given the amount of level 50 content, and the amount of time it takes to reach level 50 they may well give a better bonus over the lifetime of the charcter due to set bonuses.
Additionally they offer a much better cost/benefit ratio - so I really wouldn't use the word "effective"


[ QUOTE ]
You CAN make effective combinations at lower levels, but the higher level ones are going to give better enhancement values every time. The set bonuses of lower-level sets are also often not as high as those of higher-level sets. The number of enhancements per-set available to you also increases in higher level sets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about using lower level sets? I just mean lower level enhancements from the same set (did you notice the high level sets are usually from 30-53?).

Level 50 set IO's give you better enhancment than lower level ones, I will not argue with that. However I believe that lower level set IO's are not a waste of inf. I guess the difference is I'm arguing the case "when using set bonuses", and you're arguing the case "when not using set bonuses".
So yeah, when you have a level 50 already, and you want to use set IOs, but you don't want to use the bonuses, then use the level 50 ones, but please if you're going to that much expense, make sure to mix in some HOs and common IOs to actually get the most out of the build!
However if you're not level 50 yet, or if you ever want to play the character below 50 and you want to use set bonuses then look at the lower level IOs.

Thanks for the discussion btw - I'm really bored with my work right now and this far more interesting!

Tough and Weave and the Unique +def IO from steadfast. Giving you 10% (i.e. slightly more) def to all three

Seriously though those AoE's bloody hurt, I have to agree with my learned colleagues. For a sword I'd take dodge last, but for anything else dodge has to be the next priority.

[ QUOTE ]

Although TBH I think slotting anything but level 50 set enhancements is a waste of inf, unless you're planning never to get the character to 50...

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely dissagree with this statement:
1) Your set bonuses won't work if you ever ex down (like say to help a friend or PvP in warbug sirens).
2) Level 33 (e.g set bonuses in sirens) are 85% as effective as level 50's. You can easily get to the ED cap on the important attributes with them.
3) What about all the levels where you're actually playing the toon before level 50?
4) Level 50's cost up to 400k more to craft.

Oh and if you're trying to max a build without worrying about set bonuses then you should be using a mix inlcuding HO's and common IO's as well as set IO's.

The only case where you should use level 50 set IO's exclusively is if your build relies upon set bonuses and you never intend to play the toon below level 47.

Far from being a waste of inf, they are cheaper, nearly as effective and available more of the time.

Here's an example of where it would be stupid to wait to level 50 IO's, my SR scrapper who is level 41.

[ QUOTE ]
At level 32 I put some level 35 IO's into focused senses. In particular I put all 6 red fortune IO's in. This gives me a total of 21.7% ranged def from the power itself, and it uses 0.13 end per second.
If I replace that with all 50's I get 21.9% ranged def and 0.13 end per second. For a total improvement of 0.2%.

But red fortune gives a 2.5% ranged def bonus, which means from level 32 to 47 (and whenever I exemp down to those levels again) I actually see an improvement of 2.3% ranged def, because I have slotted 35's instead of 50's.
On top of that I'm getting a global 5% recharge bonus and 2% damage bonus through all these levels that is not affected by ED.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another example:

[ QUOTE ]
I have 5 slotted two melee attacks with crushing impact (again at 35, by the way I sold two level 50 CI IO's to fund all 10 level 35's).
The difference between the bonuses at level 35 and level 50 is:
~60 to ~ 69% acc (i.e. 9% better at 50)
~95 to ~ 97.5% dam (i.e. 2.5% better at 50)
~60 to ~ 69% rech (i.e. 9% better at 50)
~37 to ~42.5 end (i.e. 5.5% better at 50)

But wait a minute, crusing impact gives a 7% acc and 5% rech bonus... and I have two of those so I'm getting 14% acc and 10% rech, so once again between the levels of 32 and 47 (and when I exemp in the future) I'm actually seeing an improvement in accuracy and recharge on those powers, for a minor loss on damage and end (oh and guess what the damage is replaced by the bonus from red fortune)

[/ QUOTE ]

Quotes are just for ease of reading

[ QUOTE ]
although some would dissagree but don't go for the fighting poll because that'll only help you against lethal and smashing and none of the other dmg types; aim for the medicine 1 instead, you'll thank me later

[/ QUOTE ]

You're quite right - I would disagree.

The fighting pool does not protect you from smashing and lethal only, tough does, but weave gives you +def to all. Also the steadfast protection res/+def IO can go into tough. This means you can get +10% def to all from these two powers alone, and believe me going from ~30% def to ~40% def is a huge difference. On top of that the smashing and lethal resist from tough is damned useful - S/L are by far the most common damage types in the game.

However I would certainly agree that the medicine pool is a good choice, and you only need to take 2 powers from the pool to get the benefit, unlike the three you need from fighting. Without it you are going to have to rely on insps and external healing because even under elude you will take damage.

If you are going to take medicine pool in a kat/SR build I would suggest taking it earlier though.
For example swap it with dodge and quickness:
- Dodge will be largely covered by divine avalanche.
- Quickness is only a 20% rech buff, and this can be replaced by sets.

Crushing impact in melee attacks - 5 slotted will give you 5% recharge bonus (as well as some other tasty bonuses)
Red fortune in defences - 5 slotted will give you 5% rech, 6 slotted gives you 2.5% ranged def as well.
I would recommend slotting two melee attacks with 5 crushing impact IO's, and 6 slotting all three def toggles with red fortune. This gives you a total of 7.5% ranged def (which is awesome really) and 25% rech as well as some other good set bonuses.

Also I'd really advise taking hurdle instead of swift - with only SS it's a pain in the neck getting anywhere!