Id slot it like i would anyother attack personally, just keep it perma. Versus single targets ya best chain would prolly be follow up, focus, strike and slash so Id get that and have other attacks for their situationalness.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Id slot it like i would anyother attack personally, just keep it perma. Versus single targets ya best chain would prolly be follow up, focus, strike and slash so Id get that and have other attacks for their situationalness.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats my thoughts too. My old non IO slotting had 2 acc and 2 recharge. My question is what IO sets any of you would recommend if any?
In my opinion Follow Up shouldn't exactly be slotted like other attacks. It needs more ACC and recharge so it can be double stacked more often.
IIRC my slotting so far for my level 27 Claws/SR is something like this
Focussed Smite : Acc/Dam/Rech ( 16% each )
Focussed Smite : Acc/End/Rech ( 16% each )
Bruising Blow : Acc/Dam ( 21% each )
Bruising Blow : Dam/Rech ( 21% each )
Invention : Rech ( 33% )
Single Origin : End red ( 33% )
Bonus wise I get
Acc 53%
Dam 58%
Rech 86%
End 49%
+1% recovery
+ immob res.
I think I have a bit too much end reduction in it, but i haven't finished yet.
Ideally Pounding slugfest would be better for me than Bruising Blow as I'd get regen instead of recovery, but that is in very high demand. As an SR regen is more useful ( I think ).
Before IOs I think I slotted it 2xACC, 3x Rech, 1xEnd. So basically I've lost a little bit of Acc and damage for a bit more end red and a fair amount of damage.
This is by no means an ideal slotting.
In an ideal world I'd go for something like this, to maximise all aspects rather than for set bonuses. I can get set bonuses in the more conventional powers.
Mako's bite: Acc/Dam/End/Rech ( 14 )
Pulverizing Fisticuffs: Acc/Dam/End/Rech ( 14 )
Focussed Smite: Acc/End/Rech ( 16 )
Focussed Smite: Acc/Dam/Rech ( 16 )
Pulverizing Fisticuffs: Acc/Dam/Rech ( 16 )
Bone Snap: Acc/Rech ( 21 )
ACC 99
DAM 61
Rech 99
End 44
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Probably 4 Makos Bite, 2 Crushing Impact with level 50 IOs:
Mako's Bite: Acc/Dam (+26.5% to all)
Mako's Bite: Dam/Rech (+26.5% to all)
Mako's Bite: Acc/End/Rech (+21.2% to all)
Mako's Bite: Acc/Dam/End/Rech (+18.55% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/Rech (+21.2% to all)
Crushing Impact: Dam/End/Rech (+21.2% to all)
= 87.45% Acc, 113.95% Dam, 60.95% End, 108.65% Rech, plus +HP, +Damage Set Bonuses.
If you wanted to go all-out and use HOs as well, providing that Endurance isn't an issue (/regen) then the best you'll be able to get out of it is 3 Nucleous (Acc/Dam) and 3 Membrane (Tohit/Rech). But realistically the ToHit is gives when fully slotted is negligable (15.5% instead of 10%) so I'd stick with IOs... 
I was doing my calculations with level 25-30ish ones. Level 50 makes a large difference in slotting.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
[ QUOTE ]
I was doing my calculations with level 25-30ish ones. Level 50 makes a large difference in slotting.
[/ QUOTE ]
@ Level 30:
Mako's Bite: Acc/Dmg/End/Echg (+15.23% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/Rech (+17.4% to all)
Focussed Smite: Acc/Dam/Rech (+17.4% to all)
Kinetic Combat: Dmg/End/Rech (+17.4% to all)
Touch of Death: Dmg/End/Rech (+17.4% to all)
Smashing Haymaker: Dmg/End/Rech (+17.4% to all)
= 50.03% Acc, 102.23% Dam, 67.43% End, 102.23% Rech
Or you can effectively swap out Damage for Accuracy.
Although TBH I think slotting anything but level 50 set enhancements is a waste of inf, unless you're planning never to get the character to 50... since common IOs are perfectly fine for levelling.
[ QUOTE ]
Although TBH I think slotting anything but level 50 set enhancements is a waste of inf, unless you're planning never to get the character to 50...
[/ QUOTE ]
With the exception of proc IOs..
Procs and Globals that act as set bonuses, Yep.
But even then I'd say it'd usually be better to wait until 50... since the rest of the slotting of that power will suffer without maximum-effectiveness (level 50) IOs. Regen/Recovery IOs are about the only ones I'd consider slotting early... maybe the +stealth ones too. I've got a +defence global IO slotted on my bot/traps MM that I'd be hard pressed to part with, but I'm saving getting a +resist IO for when it hits 50!! 
[ QUOTE ]
Although TBH I think slotting anything but level 50 set enhancements is a waste of inf, unless you're planning never to get the character to 50...
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I completely dissagree with this statement:
1) Your set bonuses won't work if you ever ex down (like say to help a friend or PvP in warbug sirens).
2) Level 33 (e.g set bonuses in sirens) are 85% as effective as level 50's. You can easily get to the ED cap on the important attributes with them.
3) What about all the levels where you're actually playing the toon before level 50?
4) Level 50's cost up to 400k more to craft.
Oh and if you're trying to max a build without worrying about set bonuses then you should be using a mix inlcuding HO's and common IO's as well as set IO's.
The only case where you should use level 50 set IO's exclusively is if your build relies upon set bonuses and you never intend to play the toon below level 47.
Far from being a waste of inf, they are cheaper, nearly as effective and available more of the time.
Here's an example of where it would be stupid to wait to level 50 IO's, my SR scrapper who is level 41.
[ QUOTE ]
At level 32 I put some level 35 IO's into focused senses. In particular I put all 6 red fortune IO's in. This gives me a total of 21.7% ranged def from the power itself, and it uses 0.13 end per second.
If I replace that with all 50's I get 21.9% ranged def and 0.13 end per second. For a total improvement of 0.2%.
But red fortune gives a 2.5% ranged def bonus, which means from level 32 to 47 (and whenever I exemp down to those levels again) I actually see an improvement of 2.3% ranged def, because I have slotted 35's instead of 50's.
On top of that I'm getting a global 5% recharge bonus and 2% damage bonus through all these levels that is not affected by ED.
[/ QUOTE ]
Another example:
[ QUOTE ]
I have 5 slotted two melee attacks with crushing impact (again at 35, by the way I sold two level 50 CI IO's to fund all 10 level 35's).
The difference between the bonuses at level 35 and level 50 is:
~60 to ~ 69% acc (i.e. 9% better at 50)
~95 to ~ 97.5% dam (i.e. 2.5% better at 50)
~60 to ~ 69% rech (i.e. 9% better at 50)
~37 to ~42.5 end (i.e. 5.5% better at 50)
But wait a minute, crusing impact gives a 7% acc and 5% rech bonus... and I have two of those so I'm getting 14% acc and 10% rech, so once again between the levels of 32 and 47 (and when I exemp in the future) I'm actually seeing an improvement in accuracy and recharge on those powers, for a minor loss on damage and end (oh and guess what the damage is replaced by the bonus from red fortune)
[/ QUOTE ]
Quotes are just for ease of reading
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although TBH I think slotting anything but level 50 set enhancements is a waste of inf, unless you're planning never to get the character to 50...
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely dissagree with this statement:
1) Your set bonuses won't work if you ever ex down (like say to help a friend or PvP in warbug sirens).
2) Level 33 (e.g set bonuses in sirens) are 85% as effective as level 50's. You can easily get to the ED cap on the important attributes with them.
3) What about all the levels where you're actually playing the toon before level 50?
4) Level 50's cost up to 400k more to craft.
Oh and if you're trying to max a build without worrying about set bonuses then you should be using a mix inlcuding HO's and common IO's as well as set IO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Typically I avoid worrying about set bonuses and focus on maximum effective value from enhancements.
To this end I have completely min-maxxed one of my level 50 toons on IOs so far and am about 90% of the way through min-maxxing another one. I've used HOs, yes. But I've never used a set IO below the highest available level unless it was a global effect IO which acts as a set bonus (would be unavailable when exemplared).
Yes, you can mix and match set IOs with Common IOs and HOs to increase performance... but even then HOs are only available at endgame (50) and Common IOs obtain maximum effectiveness at level 50 (endgame).
[ QUOTE ]
The only case where you should use level 50 set IO's exclusively is if your build relies upon set bonuses and you never intend to play the toon below level 47.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I'd suggest that the only time you should bother slotting set IOs UNDER level 50 is when you want set bonuses when exemping. For all other purposes, slotting the same IO at a higher level would tease out higher enhancement numbers and therefore make the power better.
Common level 25 or level 30 IOs are equivilant with SOs and perfectly fine for getting a toon to 50. Once there you'll have the best selection of enhancements available to you in order to completely min-max your build!
Such common IOs are much cheaper than Set IOs, and last just as long. They're just like SOs, so you're not gimping your "gameplay to 50" by taking them. The only thing you're missing out on are the set bonuses.
But if someone wants to shell out a load of inf on set IOs that they're just going to replace again when they hit 50, I'm not going to stop them!
[ QUOTE ]
Far from being a waste of inf, they are cheaper, nearly as effective and available more of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the enhancement values are still lower. They are therefore still LESS EFFECTIVE.
You CAN make effective combinations at lower levels, but the higher level ones are going to give better enhancement values every time. The set bonuses of lower-level sets are also often not as high as those of higher-level sets. The number of enhancements per-set available to you also increases in higher level sets.
I guess it depends what you play the game for.
For me personally, playing to 50 ( or 47 ) and then slotting IOs seems a complete waste of effort. This is because the fun ( for me ) is the journey, not the destination.
I think I have played Golden Golem for less than 60 hours since he got to 50. Unthing I have probably played for less than 25. I suspect I will be using Unthing as a cash cow to fund alts for some time though.
As for set bonuses versus power effects, some set bonuses are worth having for some builds, such as regen. Many seem to me to be fairly worthless though ( immob resistance on a melee toon ?!? ).
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Aye, there's only really a few decent ones available for a regen... +Recharge, +HP and +Regen are the ones I can think of offhand since +recovery is unnoticable with Quick Recovery, +accuracy or +damage are also nice.
Sounds like different playstyles. I consider what sort of toon I want, design it, build it for PvE and level it to 50, then respec it for whatever it's final purpose is (PvP, max +defence, damage?), then start a new toon.
Older level 50s are regularly used for SG/Coalition exp teams, inf/salvage farming, multiple-level TFs etc. a lot, as well as PvP... so I like to have them as effective as possible across the entire level range. This means maximum enhancement effectiveness (since exemping reduces the % values of your slotting) and largely ignoring normal "set bonuses" unless I intend the toon to mainly be used at level 50.
I've six 50s and only two (well, NEARLY two) with full-IO builds though. It'll take me a while to do them all...
DA/Spines Scrapper's done (and BOY did it benefit!). Defender's nearly done... PB is next, then Tanker, with Kat/Regen Scrapper and Bot/Dark MM last. I'm probably going to take a long break between toons though, as I'm getting bored farming inf and salvage and have developed a mad urge to make a Blaster... 
[ QUOTE ]
Typically I avoid worrying about set bonuses and focus on maximum effective value from enhancements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you may not be realising the full potential of your character - set bonuses are not subject to ED and are globally applied as I have shown in the examples, they can increase your effectiveness beyond any enhancement combination in your powers.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can mix and match set IOs with Common IOs and HOs to increase performance... but even then HOs are only available at endgame (50) and Common IOs obtain maximum effectiveness at level 50 (endgame).
[/ QUOTE ]
In this specific case you are talking about using level 50 set IO's and not worrying about the set bonuses. I don't see how HOs only being available in the endgame (as the level 50 IOs are) has any relevance on the fact that they can offer an improvement over using level 50 set IOs alone?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only case where you should use level 50 set IO's exclusively is if your build relies upon set bonuses and you never intend to play the toon below level 47.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I'd suggest that the only time you should bother slotting set IOs UNDER level 50 is when you want set bonuses when exemping. For all other purposes, slotting the same IO at a higher level would tease out higher enhancement numbers and therefore make the power better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hence why I used the word "exclusively" as in when you're using all level 50 set IOs, and no HOs or common IOs.
What about when you havent reached level 47 yet? Why should I play through 20 odd levels without set IO's, just because the level 50's are a little better (and negligibly so when you consider that you're probably going to be hitting ED with level 30's anyhow - see my red fortune example)?
[ QUOTE ]
Common level 25 or level 30 IOs are equivilant with SOs and perfectly fine for getting a toon to 50. Once there you'll have the best selection of enhancements available to you in order to completely min-max your build!
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this; at level 50 you do have the best selection available (e.g. all of them).
[ QUOTE ]
But if someone wants to shell out a load of inf on set IOs that they're just going to replace again when they hit 50, I'm not going to stop them!
[/ QUOTE ]
As I have already stated the lower level ones are cheaper - I have more inf now than I did when I started collecting set IOs.
On top of this I have a build that I will not be replacing with level 50s, because the level 50s will give me a tiny improvement compared to the cost. And going back to the exemping issue, the improvement will be so small that if I do exmp down I'll be considerably worse off than if I stick with my existing level 35 IOs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Far from being a waste of inf, they are cheaper, nearly as effective and available more of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the enhancement values are still lower. They are therefore still LESS EFFECTIVE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they will give a smaller enhancement bonus.
Given the amount of level 50 content, and the amount of time it takes to reach level 50 they may well give a better bonus over the lifetime of the charcter due to set bonuses.
Additionally they offer a much better cost/benefit ratio - so I really wouldn't use the word "effective"
[ QUOTE ]
You CAN make effective combinations at lower levels, but the higher level ones are going to give better enhancement values every time. The set bonuses of lower-level sets are also often not as high as those of higher-level sets. The number of enhancements per-set available to you also increases in higher level sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about using lower level sets? I just mean lower level enhancements from the same set (did you notice the high level sets are usually from 30-53?).
Level 50 set IO's give you better enhancment than lower level ones, I will not argue with that. However I believe that lower level set IO's are not a waste of inf. I guess the difference is I'm arguing the case "when using set bonuses", and you're arguing the case "when not using set bonuses".
So yeah, when you have a level 50 already, and you want to use set IOs, but you don't want to use the bonuses, then use the level 50 ones, but please if you're going to that much expense, make sure to mix in some HOs and common IOs to actually get the most out of the build!
However if you're not level 50 yet, or if you ever want to play the character below 50 and you want to use set bonuses then look at the lower level IOs.
Thanks for the discussion btw - I'm really bored with my work right now and this far more interesting!
Apologies for the thread derailment 
For reference this is similar to my live build for my Kat/SR scrapper used in the examples.
I believe that due to set bonuses she is more powerful than any combination of powers or enhancements in PvE (ignore, if you will, the fighting vs medicine argument for this, also I would use a different build for PvP).
She has worked well from, and will exemp to 32 and above. For example she has nearly 42% ranged defense at level 32, which is unobtainable without set bonuses or severly gimping your build with all the power pool +defenses.
Feel free to see the difference between level 35 and level 50 IO's - I think it's pretty tiny compared to the many millions in crafting cost alone.
I realise that this is an individual case, but it's still up there for reference.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.153
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php
Lotusblade: Level 50 Mutation Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Sting of the Wasp -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:35(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:35(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(17)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(5), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(7), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(7), RedFtn-Def:35(13), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(15)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(9), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(9), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(11), RedFtn-Def:35(11), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(13)
Level 4: Agile -- LkGmblr-Def:35(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:35(45), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:35(45), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(46)
Level 6: Build Up -- RechRdx-I:35(A)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:35(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(27), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:35(31), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(34)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I:35(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:35(A), RechRdx-I:35(15), RechRdx-I:35(17)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth:35(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I:35(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:35(A), Numna-Heal:35(19), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx:35(27), Mrcl-Rcvry+:35(39), Mrcl-Heal:35(39)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:35(A), EndMod-I:35(21), EndMod-I:35(21)
Level 22: The Lotus Drops -- M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:35(A), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:35(23), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:35(23), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:35(25), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(25), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(31)
Level 24: Kick -- F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg:35(A)
Level 26: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx:30(43)
Level 28: Soaring Dragon -- T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:35(A), T'Death-Acc/Dmg:35(29), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:35(29), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(39), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(40), T'Death-Dam%:35(40)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:35(31), LkGmblr-Def:35(37), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:35(42), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:35(42)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:35(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:35(33), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:35(33), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:35(33), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(34), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(34)
Level 35: Evasion -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-Def:35(37), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(37)
Level 38: Elude -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:35(A), S'dpty-EndRdx/Rchg:35(40), S'dpty-Def/Rchg:35(42), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(43), S'dpty-Def:35(43)
Level 41: Quickness -- Run-I:35(A)
Level 44: Lucky -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:35(A), LkGmblr-Def:35(45), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:35(46), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(46)
Level 47: Focused Accuracy -- EndRdx-I:35(A), EndRdx-I:35(48), EndRdx-I:35(48), ToHit-I:35(48), ToHit-I:35(50), ToHit-I:35(50)
Level 49: Dodge -- DefBuff-I:35(A), DefBuff-I:35(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build.
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@WOT>+W8JS$EQ>MT[SA9D_+N-H="]H50\_@+<MH>[Y.Z87B8.EL:78%OW+!YFBWPO8@JXH76H6M\*F2
DO1Y?2AC!JT$<>-=[9`[6UJL47S7/Z&YB/A#D1?&1+:JQX9OLUX]N_;RM$JG%UW>X\N;<ZINO-'[,TLU
"ZES%L/0U54.O/A88C]K"I;10T^U*.#/X'?\SH^Z.6IA=9G?TYL/^>JH>G54A_'7]:=%!X,V;W]Z$1)O
^NCZA]W]/0J7\9I?N1P5YD%[>A"7_YCBRXO_`>8Q'\T`
Urrg... quotes upon quotes starting again.
Apologies in advance if this becomes hard to follow, it's a headache to edit properly!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Typically I avoid worrying about set bonuses and focus on maximum effective value from enhancements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you may not be realising the full potential of your character - set bonuses are not subject to ED and are globally applied as I have shown in the examples, they can increase your effectiveness beyond any enhancement combination in your powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which are irrelevant if you exemplar. Only the non-set-bonus global IOs apply when exemplared.
If you intend to stay at level 50 you are certainly free to make all kinds of set bonuses stack up, but generally it'll be better to aim for enhancement values FIRST.
Example: My Spines/Dark has an obscene amount of +Recovery and +Regen at level 50 from set bonuses, but I focussed much more on making his attacks and toggles contain as much traditional damage and endred as possible (even going slightly ABOVE the level-50 ED cap on many powers) because that is what will affect him the most when he exemplars down for different level TFs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can mix and match set IOs with Common IOs and HOs to increase performance... but even then HOs are only available at endgame (50) and Common IOs obtain maximum effectiveness at level 50 (endgame).
[/ QUOTE ]
In this specific case you are talking about using level 50 set IO's and not worrying about the set bonuses. I don't see how HOs only being available in the endgame (as the level 50 IOs are) has any relevance on the fact that they can offer an improvement over using level 50 set IOs alone?
[/ QUOTE ]
It has relevance in the context of your previous post, you seemed to be implying that instead of waiting to use level 50 set IOs, choosing your set IOs at level 25-30 was better. You then argued that HOs/Common IOs were just as effective. HOs are not available at level 25-30, so there is no valid comparison. If you wish to use HOs you will need to wait until level 50, when you might as well use level 50 set IOs along with those HOs (rather than combine level 50 HOs with the weaker level 25-30 set IOs).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only case where you should use level 50 set IO's exclusively is if your build relies upon set bonuses and you never intend to play the toon below level 47.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I'd suggest that the only time you should bother slotting set IOs UNDER level 50 is when you want set bonuses when exemping. For all other purposes, slotting the same IO at a higher level would tease out higher enhancement numbers and therefore make the power better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hence why I used the word "exclusively" as in when you're using all level 50 set IOs, and no HOs or common IOs.
What about when you havent reached level 47 yet? Why should I play through 20 odd levels without set IO's, just because the level 50's are a little better (and negligibly so when you consider that you're probably going to be hitting ED with level 30's anyhow - see my red fortune example)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Two points:
+ If you wish to use poorer performing, cheaper enhancements to hit the ED cap, you might as well use only common IOs since they can quite happily accomplish this and are cheaper than set IOs at any level.
+ The lower level set IOs' enhancement bonuses are STILL affected by exemplar rules and STILL give worse bonuses than their high level counterparts. Higher level enhancements will let you boost your overall enhancement % spread for better overall performance, as well as let you creep slightly over the ED cap so that when exemplaring you still get nearly all the bonuses possible from ED. This is the same reason that many level 50 pvp toons slotted their powers with the equivilant of 4 accuracy/4 damage SOs if they intended to participate in PvP at level 30.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Far from being a waste of inf, they are cheaper, nearly as effective and available more of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the enhancement values are still lower. They are therefore still LESS EFFECTIVE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they will give a smaller enhancement bonus.
Given the amount of level 50 content, and the amount of time it takes to reach level 50 they may well give a better bonus over the lifetime of the charcter due to set bonuses.
Additionally they offer a much better cost/benefit ratio - so I really wouldn't use the word "effective"
[/ QUOTE ]
I would. Higher % bonuses. Higher "set bonus" values. More options to choose from in each set. More set combinations available. Cost is largely irrelevant since we're dealing with in-game 'monopoly money' and it's relatively easy to make 10-20 million inf in an evening if you know what you're doing.
A Character doesn't just end at level 50 either, for most of my toons they simply hit peak effectiveness and IOs boost that even more... Personally I wouldn't equip them with anything less than the absolute best build possible for what I intend that toon to do. That means optimum enhancment levels as a primary concern, and optimum set bonuses as a secondary concern. That means using the highest level enhancements avilable in each set. That means doing this at level 50.
[ QUOTE ]
Level 50 set IO's give you better enhancment than lower level ones, I will not argue with that. However I believe that lower level set IO's are not a waste of inf. I guess the difference is I'm arguing the case "when using set bonuses", and you're arguing the case "when not using set bonuses".
So yeah, when you have a level 50 already, and you want to use set IOs, but you don't want to use the bonuses, then use the level 50 ones, but please if you're going to that much expense, make sure to mix in some HOs and common IOs to actually get the most out of the build!
[/ QUOTE ]
To my knowledge, I have never suggested otherwise... It's entirely possible that my wording was unclear though, will have to skim-read back through my previous ramblings... 
[EDIT: Yep, found it I think. Please read "Although TBH I think slotting anything but level 50 set enhancements is a waste of inf, unless you're planning never to get the character to 50..." as "Although I think slotting set enhancements at anything but level 50 is a waste of inf, unless you're planning to never get the character to 50...". I think that's where you got that HO point from... I'm really a big fan of HOs!]
[ QUOTE ]
However if you're not level 50 yet, or if you ever want to play the character below 50 and you want to use set bonuses then look at the lower level IOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Won't argue with that. In My Opinion (tm) there is simply not much point in using set IOs (or HOs for that matter) before I can achieve the maximum possible level of slotting effectiveness for each character. I'd be quite content to use Common level 25/30 IOs as a simple direct replacement for SOs, save the inf I save from not replacing them for 25-30 levels and completely redo my character at 50 (making use of HOs, set IOs, Common IOs, anything I can get my grubby little mitts on to get the absolute most out of my character!)
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the discussion btw - I'm really bored with my work right now and this far more interesting!
[/ QUOTE ]
No probs, glad it hasn't become too antagonistic on either side! Usually these "quote-wars" can descend into name calling if you're not careful.
Oh, and complete thread derailment... yep... nothing to see here...
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the discussion btw - I'm really bored with my work right now and this far more interesting!
[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. Also I've not played much I9 so I'm hoping to learn something.
[ QUOTE ]
For reference this is similar to my live build for my Kat/SR scrapper used in the examples.
I believe that due to set bonuses she is more powerful than any combination of powers or enhancements in PvE (ignore, if you will, the fighting vs medicine argument for this, also I would use a different build for PvP).
She has worked well from, and will exemp to 32 and above. For example she has nearly 42% ranged defense at level 32, which is unobtainable without set bonuses or severly gimping your build with all the power pool +defenses.
Feel free to see the difference between level 35 and level 50 IO's - I think it's pretty tiny compared to the many millions in crafting cost alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry I haven't got Mids at work ( naughty me ). Please could you summarise the total set benefits?
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I haven't got Mids at work ( naughty me ). Please could you summarise the total set benefits?
[/ QUOTE ]
Did a quick Import into my Mids planner (sneaked it into work... the other IT guy hasn't noticed yet!)
[u]Set Bonuses:[u]
+8.5% DamageBuff
+3% Defense(Smashing)
+3% Defense(Lethal)
+3% Defense(Fire)
+3% Defense(Cold)
+3% Defense(Energy)
+3% Defense(Negative)
+3% Defense(Psionic)
+9.88% Defense(Melee)
+10.5% Defense(Ranged)
+8% Defense(AoE)
+44% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+47.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+130.6 (9.75%) HitPoints
+MezResist(Held) (Mag 2.75%)
+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 13.8%)
+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 3.3%)
+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 3.3%)
+4% Recovery
+46% Regeneration
+5.67% Resistance(Fire)
+5.67% Resistance(Cold)
[u]Totals:[u]
45.6% Melee Def, 46.9% Ranged Def, 44.4% AoE Def. 178% Recovery, 243% Regeneration, 137.5% Recharge.
Elude's recharge time is given as 331.4 secs (with Hasten).
Hasten recharge time is given as 134.7 secs.
Argg the quoting horribleness indeed, stupid tiny box they give us, don't they realise we have much to discuss!
[ QUOTE ]
Which are irrelevant if you exemplar. Only the non-set-bonus global IOs apply when exemplared.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is only the case if your set enhancements are 3 levels higher than you or more.
So my level 35 set enhancements will still give me a set bonus even when I exemp down to level 32.
There was a bug that meant they only worked at the level you slotted them in, but the devs fixed this.
[ QUOTE ]
generally it'll be better to aim for enhancement values FIRST.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree, I always make sure I'm getting the proper enhancement bonus before I worry about what set bonuses can do. Whats the point in getting a 2% set bonus to damage if you're only getting a 50% dam enhancement in your main attack!
[ QUOTE ]
It has relevance in the context of your previous post, you seemed to be implying that instead of waiting to use level 50 set IOs, choosing your set IOs at level 25-30 was better. You then argued that HOs/Common IOs were just as effective. HOs are not available at level 25-30, so there is no valid comparison. If you wish to use HOs you will need to wait until level 50, when you might as well use level 50 set IOs along with those HOs (rather than combine level 50 HOs with the weaker level 25-30 set IOs).
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry this wasn't what I meant to imply. There are two things:
1) Why wait to level 50 for set enhancements when you can use them on your set enhancements on your level 30 character? (we've probably been over this one enough by now to have the answer)
2) If you are only using level 50 set IOs and you don't care about set bonuses, then you should be using HOs and common IOs to get the max benefit. This is because an HOs overall enhancement is greater than any set enhancement IOs apart from the 4 aspect ones.
[ QUOTE ]
+ If you wish to use poorer performing, cheaper enhancements to hit the ED cap, you might as well use only common IOs since they can quite happily accomplish this and are cheaper than set IOs at any level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not always true:
1) Sometimes set IOs are cheaper than same level common IOs it depends on their popularity (often the recipies are much cheaper as the common ones can be sold to NPCs for more than the set ones). However I will conceed that they are generally more expensive over all.
2) Set IOs are multi aspect, I can use them to get a better overall enhancement than common IOs can, and still reach the ED cap, even when the IOs are level 30. Example:
full set of crushing impact @ 30:
97.6% dam
56.55% acc/end/rech
common IOs at 30 (acc/acc/dam/dam/dam/rech)
95.5% dam
69% acc
34.8% rech
That's worse over all even if we don't count endurance reduction. That doesn't use enhacements from different sets (which could help) and doesn't count the set bonuses.
[ QUOTE ]
+ The lower level set IOs' enhancement bonuses are STILL affected by exemplar rules and STILL give worse bonuses than their high level counterparts. Higher level enhancements will let you boost your overall enhancement % spread for better overall performance, as well as let you creep slightly over the ED cap so that when exemplaring you still get nearly all the bonuses possible from ED. This is the same reason that many level 50 pvp toons slotted their powers with the equivilant of 4 accuracy/4 damage SOs if they intended to participate in PvP at level 30.
[/ QUOTE ]
AFAIK the scaling only comes into play below level 32, at level 30 it will be a small effect. If you have level 33 or lower sets then you still keep you set bonuses. So in the case of PvPing at level 30, I still think that having set bonuses available would make a greater difference than the enhancement boost from 33-50 IOs.
At very low levels of exemping I agree you would be better with the highest level IOs you could get.
[ QUOTE ]
I would. Higher % bonuses. Higher "set bonus" values. More options to choose from in each set. More set combinations available. Cost is largely irrelevant since we're dealing with in-game 'monopoly money' and it's relatively easy to make 10-20 million inf in an evening if you know what you're doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You get the same set bonuses from level 35 set IOs that you do from level 50 ones. To my knowledge there are no set enhancements at level 50 that are not available at level 30. In addition there are considerably more available at level 30 that are not available at 50 (sets that stop at 30 or 40 for example).
Earlier you argued that spending inf slotting set IOs at lower level as it was a waste of inf, now you are saying that inf is largely irrelevent, this is a bit contradictory.
[ QUOTE ]
A Character doesn't just end at level 50 either, for most of my toons they simply hit peak effectiveness and IOs boost that even more... Personally I wouldn't equip them with anything less than the absolute best build possible for what I intend that toon to do. That means optimum enhancment levels as a primary concern, and optimum set bonuses as a secondary concern. That means using the highest level enhancements avilable in each set. That means doing this at level 50.
[/ QUOTE ]
As unthing said this is largely a playstyle issue. I would suggest that people tend to spend more time leveling their characters than playing them at 50 on average though.
The key point here is "less than the absolute best build possible for what I intend that toon to do". If you are intending to play at level 50 exclusively then, yes, level 50 IOs (set or otherwise) will be the only choice.
As I have said before I believe you can do better using set bonuses than you can without them and if you wish to exemp then having IOs that still give you the set bonus when exemped would be a net benefit for the character (if my assumption that set bonuses can achieve more than enhancement bonus alone is correct).
[ QUOTE ]
No probs, glad it hasn't become too antagonistic on either side! Usually these "quote-wars" can descend into name calling if you're not careful.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I still haven't figured a better way to discuss things on a point by point basis like this. It does often get ugly, but neither of us seem to be heading down that root
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and complete thread derailment... yep... nothing to see here...
[/ QUOTE ]
Thread? What thread? I never saw any thread anyhow...
[ QUOTE ]
You get the same set bonuses from level 35 set IOs that you do from level 50 ones. To my knowledge there are no set enhancements at level 50 that are not available at level 30. In addition there are considerably more available at level 30 that are not available at 50 (sets that stop at 30 or 40 for example).
Earlier you argued that spending inf slotting set IOs at lower level as it was a waste of inf, now you are saying that inf is largely irrelevent, this is a bit contradictory.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's relevant when you're levelling (unless you transfer inf from other toons) but after 50 you have nothing to use it on so inf becomes nearly worthless.
Good point about sets though.
I'll have to check up on the exemplar issue. I DO have a link *SOMEWHERE* that gives a breakdown of level-by-level exemplar scalars, but it's near home-time here and I can't be bothered to dig it out...
[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to see the difference between level 35 and level 50 IO's - I think it's pretty tiny compared to the many millions in crafting cost alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
At a quick glance, whilst you could get perma-Hasten by dropping some power picks, I can get about the equivilant defence values and considerably higher +recharge (there are also 5x 7.5% +recharge LOTGs in the build not included in the listing below) by using level 50 set IOs.
+8.5% DamageBuff
+3% Defense(Smashing)
+3% Defense(Lethal)
+4.58% Defense(Fire)
+4.58% Defense(Cold)
+3% Defense(Energy)
+3% Defense(Negative)
+3% Defense(Psionic)
+9.88% Defense(Melee)
+10.5% Defense(Ranged)
+9.88% Defense(AoE)
+44% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+62.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+105.4 (7.88%) HitPoints
+MezResist(Held) (Mag 2.75%)
+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 13.8%)
+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 3.3%)
+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 3.3%)
+44% Regeneration
+5.67% Resistance(Fire)
+5.67% Resistance(Cold)
+5% RunSpeed
+2.5% Debt Protection
...and now I'd better run since it's raining and a long drive home... have fun!
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[ QUOTE ]
At a quick glance, whilst you could get perma-Hasten by dropping some power picks, I can get about the equivilant defence values and considerably higher +recharge (there are also 5x 7.5% +recharge LOTGs in the build not included in the listing below) by using level 50 set IOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's nothing to do with them being level 50 though, that's just because you have used different sets.
All the sets are available at level 35, giving you the same set bonus, but still working when exemped down to 32 or above.
Btw I would always use level 50 common IOs, I just can't be bothered to faff around with the builder to get it to do that! I should have qualified my statement to say "feel free to change the set IOs to level 50..."
Nice Build btw
[ QUOTE ]
AFAIK the scaling only comes into play below level 32, at level 30 it will be a small effect. If you have level 33 or lower sets then you still keep you set bonuses. So in the case of PvPing at level 30, I still think that having set bonuses available would make a greater difference than the enhancement boost from 33-50 IOs.
At very low levels of exemping I agree you would be better with the highest level IOs you could get.
[/ QUOTE ]
Back from my drive...
Enhancement scalars are here
At level 30 (Sirens Call) it's 0.935, so you'd need 106.95% instead of 100% to hit the ED 'cap'.
At level 24 (Bloody Bay) it's 0.696, so you'd need 143.68% instead of 100% to hit the ED 'cap'.
Taken to silly levels, on the Positron TF (15 Cap IIRC), it's 0.391, so you'd need 255.75% to hit the cap.
A good guideline looks to be "Aim for just under 110% ish for Sirens"... which is pretty much what I've been doing when I've been planning out my IO build for my Sonic/Elec Defender...
[ QUOTE ]
You get the same set bonuses from level 35 set IOs that you do from level 50 ones. To my knowledge there are no set enhancements at level 50 that are not available at level 30. In addition there are considerably more available at level 30 that are not available at 50 (sets that stop at 30 or 40 for example).
[/ QUOTE ]
Ayes... but at 50 you have access to all levels of set enhancements. The level 1-30 ones don't get denied to a level 50, the 50 can still slot them and get just as much use out of them as a level 30 if they so wish.
That's actually one of the hardest builds I've seen to tweak since all the desired set bonuses are from 6-slotted sets. That means there's no room to diversify between sets which is where high level IOs would shine...
Right, I'm going to leave you with one example and can judge for yourself if the extra % is worth it.
[u]The best IO set level 50 attack slotting I've come up with for standard melee attacks is:[u]
Mako's Bite: Dam/End (+26.5% to all)
Mako's Bite: Dam/Rech (+26.5% to all)
Mako's Bite: Acc/End/Rech (+21.2% to all)
Mako's Bite: Acc/Dam/End/Rech (+18.55% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/End (+21.2% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/Rech (+21.2% to all)
= 82.15% Acc, 113.95% Dam, 87.45% End, 87.45% Rech
(+HEALTH, +DAMAGE SET BONUS)
Mako's Bite: Acc/End/Rech (+21.2% to all)
Mako's Bite: Acc/Dam/End/Rech (+18.55% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam (+26.5% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/End (+21.2% to all)
Crushing Impact: Dam/End/Rech (+21.2% to all)
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/Rech (+21.2% to all)
= 108.65% Acc, 108.65% Dam, 82.15% End, 82.15% Rech
(+HEALTH, +ACCURACY SET BONUS)
[u]Taken at level 30, those would give:[u]
= 67.42% Acc, 93.52% Dam, 71.77% End, 71.77% Rech
(+HEALTH, +DAMAGE SET BONUS)
= 89.17% Acc, 89.17% Dam, 67.42% End, 67.42% Rech
(+HEALTH, +ACCURACY SET BONUS)
[u]Taken at level 35, those would give:[u]
= 71.11% Acc, 98.63% Dam, 75.69% End, 75.69% Rech
(+HEALTH, +DAMAGE SET BONUS)
= 94.04% Acc, 94.04% Dam, 71.11% End, 71.11% Rech
(+HEALTH, +ACCURACY SET BONUS)
I'm assuming after the thread hi-jacking, it never went back on topic.
The way I'd slot it is:
Touch of Death - 15% Chance of Neg Energy Dmg
Crushing Impact - Acc/Dmg
Crushing Impact - Dmg/End
Crushing Impact - Dmg/Rchg
Crushing Impact - Acc/Dmg/End
Crushing Impact - Dmg/End/Rchg
With the highest lvl IOs that'll give:
Acc - 48.94%
Dmg - 98.76%
End - 70.62%
Rchg - 48.94%
Mez Res Immob 2.2%
15.1 HP (1.13%)
7% Acc
5% Rchg
Of course, with the rest of the powers in that build, there's already 66% Acc and 65% Rchg so that should suffice.
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming after the thread hi-jacking, it never went back on topic.
...
Of course, with the rest of the powers in that build, there's already 66% Acc and 65% Rchg so that should suffice.
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I think the OP didn't have +66% Acc and Rech so looks like this thread is still off topic 
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Well I think the OP was well answered by Maelwys' first post.
Back to the discussion
The scalar's info is very interesting, thanks for that - I didn't realise it was such a steep curve.
IO's add a new twist to it, because they *might* do an odd thing (lets look at common IOs for simplicity):
1) Slot a level 30 at level 30, and get the full bonus from it (34.8%).
2) Level up to 50 - all the while getting the 34.8% enhancenment
3) Go to Sirens (ex to 30)
What bonus do you get, 34.8% or 32.5% (34.8*0.935)?
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Ayes... but at 50 you have access to all levels of set enhancements. The level 1-30 ones don't get denied to a level 50, the 50 can still slot them and get just as much use out of them as a level 30 if they so wish.
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True.
I'm mentioning it because it means you have access to everything at 30 as well as at 50. My personal feeing is that level 32 (or 30 if you want to PvP in sirens) is a good time to consider slotting IO sets.
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That's actually one of the hardest builds I've seen to tweak since all the desired set bonuses are from 6-slotted sets. That means there's no room to diversify between sets which is where high level IOs would shine...
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Also true - and it may be the reason why I have a bias towards lower level (e.g. level 35) IO set enhancements, as this is the only build I have actually been playing around with on live.
In the examples you give, yes taking the level 50's would be the best thing to do... if you only had one melee attack. However what happens if you have 2 or 3?
Lets say that you are going to be PvPing in Sirens. I would therefore use level 33 set IOs. Also I would take a slightly different slotting - modifying the second of your options, as I would like the 5% recharge bonus from taking one more CI - it would probably be useful for my other attacks and hasten etc:
CI: Acc/Dam
CI: Dam/Rech
CI: Acc/Dam/Rech
CI: Acc/Dam/EndRdx
CI: Dam/End/EndRdx
MB: Acc/Dam/EndRdx/Rech
This gives pre-ED totals of:
74 Acc, 114 Dam, 52 EndRdx, and 74 Rech (rounded)
Now I ex down to 30 so:
69 Acc, 107 Dam, 49 EndRdx and 69 Rech (rounded)
ED only affects Dam and that is probably going to be about 96%
However because I am using level 33s I still get my set bonuses:
Two melee attacks
83 Acc, 96 Dam, 49 EndRdx and 79 Rech
Three melee attacks
90 Acc, 96 Dam, 49 EndRdx and 84 Rech
If I slot level 50s I get (after ex scaling and ED):
80 (87.4*0.935*ED) Acc, 99 Dam, 60 EndRdx, 80 Rech
So you can see that if I stack up my set bonuses I'm going to start seeing advantages.
Factor in that these bonuses will apply to all your powers, not just the melee attacks, and you can stack up set bonuses from elsewhere, and I think you will be able to get more out of having 33s and 50s
I realise that this isn't the set you chose, but hopefully you can see my point.
Another example is that for the Kat/SR build I showed, when EX to warburg all the attacks will have acc and recharge well over 100%, and damage around or over 100%. This would simply not be possible with level 50 IOs, as a fair bit of it is comming from the set bonuses.
Which invention set/enhancements should I choose for my Claws/regens scrappers Follow Up power (FU). Im planning to use all 6 slots.
I would like some good acc in it, because it should be the can opnener that when it hits makes my next attacks easier to hit with due to the acc bonus I get when I hit with FU.
I also want to get the recharge beneeth 10 sec (the duration of the FU buff).
Finally I already have slotted it with Kinetic Combat 20% of Knock Down.
What should I put in the other slots?