New Dawn

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I agree with Shannons build as a pure PVE build, except maybe for 1 thing. I don't understand the reason for slotting Chilling Embrace with slow in PVE. I don't see the point in slowing PVE mobs as they don't exactly move very fast.

[/ QUOTE ]Personally would never put slow in it for PvE, since it has a negative impact on grouping them as they move so darn slow.

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I actually dont herd with chilling embrace, i use icicles. Its when the herd start to reach the herdpoint i turn on chilling embrace. They get to herdpoint quicker that way. So the slow is for after i have herded to prevent them getting away.

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Good build, except for the lack of early attacks. Already taken bone smasher, and I like the general order I have now. And I'm not taking taunt, I will be more likely to rely on punchvoke/Chilling embrace for that, and I'm being a bit scrankerish anyway. Thanks for the advice on end reds though!

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it wasnt a build advice it was just if i picked same sets.

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I thought I read somewhere that 6slotting frozen armour gives more extra defense than weave for an Ice Tank.

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not true, weave is +def all so it stacks with all types of def now and last 3 slots in FA would gain you very little versus smash and lethal only.

Whatever suits you is the best choice.

If it lacks in damage, recharge or is high on end cost it may make up on either useful controls for survivability or advantage. i think they do balance out in different ways. I personally like controls.

/Energy has great single target damage where /fire has great aoe damage. /Axe is good aoe and is practically the same set as /mace but /mace has good secondary effects for survivability whereas /axe is more damaging. /Stone and /superstrength are similar except /stone is more high burst damage and long recharge in comparison to /superstrength which is more sustained damage but both have good control effects. /Ice is even more very much about control, it lacks in the most damage but can add the most survivability pve. /fire is the best mulitargetter and isnt bad on the single target either with no control effect cept fear and thats more lack of.

If ya was a "run in on single target in pvp looking to flatten them fast" type then pick energy. For less so that but with more useful pvp/pve tools go for stone.

Depending on what ya want to be like as a tank will determine what you choose but i cant say that there is a best set.

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44) --> Focused Accuracy==> EndRdx(44) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46

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rather than 3 end redux this think about the overall end cost of the build and perhaps 2 end redux this and 2 end redux temp invuln however once you drop acrobatics you are gonna be so much better off endurance wise.

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28) --> Invincibility==> DefBuf(28) DefBuf(39) DefBuf(39) TH_Buf(39) TH_Buf(40) EndRdx(40)

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its quite a good buff when surrounded without additional tohit slotting. The tohits dont add alot here and when numbers thin you dont get much. I would think you have enough accuracy in attacks, plus if you 3 tohit foc acc think you wont need to put tohit here, recharge in follow up maybe better still recharge so you can maintain high dps and even stack damage and acc buffs.

My build would look like this if i had claws/invuln:

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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
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Name:
Level: 50
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary: Claws
Secondary: Invulnerability
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01) --> Swipe==> Acc(1) EndRdx(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(5) Dmg(7)
01) --> Resist Physical Damage==> DmgRes(1) DmgRes(43) DmgRes(43)
02) --> Slash==> Acc(2) EndRdx(3) DefDeBuf(40) DefDeBuf(40) DefDeBuf(42) Acc(43)
04) --> Temp Invulnerability==> DmgRes(4) DmgRes(9) DmgRes(9)
06) --> Spin==> Acc(6) EndRdx(7) Dmg(15) Dmg(15) Dmg(17)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(13) Rechg(13)
10) --> Dull Pain==> Rechg(10) Rechg(11) Rechg(11) Heal(17) Heal(23) Heal(23)
12) --> Confront==> Taunt(12)
14) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Unyielding==> DmgRes(16) DmgRes(37) DmgRes(40)
18) --> Focus==> Acc(18) Acc(19) EndRdx(19) Dmg(25) Dmg(25) Dmg(31)
20) --> Follow Up==> Acc(20) Acc(21) EndRdx(21) EndRdx(34) Rechg(34) Rechg(36)
22) --> Hurdle==> Jump(22)
24) --> Health==> Heal(24) Heal(46) Heal(46)
26) --> Eviscerate==> Acc(26) EndRdx(27) Rechg(27) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(37)
28) --> Invincibility==> DefBuf(28) DefBuf(29) DefBuf(29)
30) --> Stamina==> EndMod(30) EndMod(31) EndMod(31)
32) --> Shockwave==> Acc(32) EndRdx(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Acc(37)
35) --> Tough Hide==> DefBuf(35) DefBuf(48) DefBuf(50)
38) --> Unstoppable==> Rechg(38) Rechg(39) Rechg(39) DmgRes(39)
41) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Focused Accuracy==> EndRdx(44) EndRdx(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(45) TH_Buf(46)
47) --> Resist Elements==> DmgRes(47) DmgRes(48) DmgRes(48)
49) --> Resist Energies==> DmgRes(49) DmgRes(50) DmgRes(50)
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01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Critical Hit==> Empty(1)
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and itll sadly most likely be pants!

but i like to level up on a gimped build.

Is there an inherent 2mag resist to knockback in pvp like there maybe to holds?

i think despite how good chilling embrace is said to be, it deserves one taunt slot imo, ice patch an end slot, hibernate is personal preference but it looks overly slotted to me. You may as well use that slot in combat jump for def and not end. You have no hold which may pose a problem versus enemy you really dont want to even try to hit you. Your taunt is fantastically slotted but being that you are not stone primary id say you can get away with 2 rechg and 2 taunt and be great.

I know ya fire/ss but id like to see my fire/fire up against mms.

id of dropped leap pool if i was happy with the lack of offensive capability as well from all those pool powers.

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32) --> Unstoppable==> DmgRes(32) DmgRes(33) DmgRes(33) Rechg(34) Rechg(37)

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should be 2 dam res whilst you dont have the passives and 1 dam res when you do.

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Higher DPS (second overall, IIRC), acc debuff, less resisted, touch of fear. Easily better.

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I think its only slightly better than MA for DPS on a single target but MA has crippling axe kick which makes its dps if calculated a little differently using potential number of targets hit over time may actually come off better. However DM is gonna be far better at certain things in PVE than all of the rest of the other primary sets just by looking at what it has to offer.

The -recharge in spines is alittle over the top imo.

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But Invuln gets one of the best repel resistances...
Can basically walk through TK or Hurricane with either Unyielding or Unstoppable.

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A kinetics repel is different because it has a chance to detoggle every so often so even without the end sap it could pose problems. The chance to detoggle has been reduced by alot though but its still looks great imo.
A kin can easily uninterruptably heal on you as you work their health down which means you waste endurance, plus they end sap you plus you could be detoggled quite often whilst being attacked.

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01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1) Rechg(11)

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acc, endredux, rechg before id even slot end reduxes in toggles sorry.

Build eps standing still could be 1 eps and attack chain eps could be just over twice that without the toggles.

What do you need?

A tank that can hold its own,

3 def, 3 res, 3 heal, 3 end mod, 3 rechg what you can (within reason ie im not suggesting recharge in wet ice). If you take something like haste you can maybe afford to swap an enhancement for something else other than a recharge.

Then?

An attack chain.

So start with looking at 1 acc, 1 end, 3 dam, 1 rechg as optimal slotting.

But you may have too may powers to choose from whilst attacking so you may not need all that recharge and can swap for an acc. Regard a recharge slot as equal to a damage slot just to fill an attack chain if you must but on lightest attacks, stuns, holds, cones or aoe. Fast recharge cones and aoes are always nice.

Either way in my already calculated opinion and one of experience Ice/ itself isnt really end heavy at all. The heal costs about 50% more than other heals of other sets and thats it. You get energy absorption and even hibernate to put endurance back anyway.

Your attack chain is end heaviest thats why when you stand still with all armours on your endurance bar doesnt disappear to 0 even if you dont have endurance slotted in your armour. Its not till you start attacking that your endurance suddenly works its way down which is why attacks should have an endurance slot (unless perhaps if your stone/ because of -recharge and res to end drain reasons). /Energy isnt a bad damage per endurance set its a good one, what makes it look bad from peoples point of view is its fast action times meaning your attack chain will use up more endurance per second than other tanker secondaries will. Dont even bother slotting toggles for endurance until you have attacks slotted for it. Sure toggles are nice to keep on at low endurance but id rather take longer to get to low endurance. By the time you start facing the serious end drainers you should easily afford one endurance slot on a toggle which wont necessarily save you anymore than 2 will. But on every type of tank i would not slot toggles for endurance until i have slotted the attacks.

Stick an endurance slot in your travel power if you fight with it on.

Damage auras need an endurance slot but they are great dpe whilst you have herded 10. You are also going to add survivability from shortening overall fight duration. They dont matter so much on a fast kill team but on a slow one they do.

1 end, 1 slow, 1 taunt at least i think in chilling embrace.

You have to look at the overall build during a fight for endurance cost, not individual powers and not by blaming it on 1 powerset by slotting primaries and not secondaries.

If i went the same route as deathdude my pve build wouldnt be far off from this:

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Name: icenergy
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
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01) --> Hoarfrost==> Rechg(1) Rechg(3) Rechg(3) Heal(5) Heal(5) Heal(7)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1) Rechg(11)
02) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(2) DefBuf(7) DefBuf(9) EndRdx(40)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> EndRdx(4) Slow(9) Taunt(11)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hurdle==> Jump(8)
10) --> Taunt==> Rechg(10) Rechg(15) Taunt(15) Taunt(45)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(13) Rechg(13)
14) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Whirling Hands==> Acc(16) EndRdx(17) Rechg(17) Dmg(19) Dmg(19) Dmg(23)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18) Heal(34) Heal(37)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Icicles==> Acc(22) EndRdx(23) Dmg(31) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Acc(46)
24) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(24) DefBuf(25) DefBuf(25) EndRdx(43)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> Rechg(26) Rechg(27) Rechg(27) DefBuf(29) DefBuf(29) DefBuf(31)
28) --> Build Up==> Rechg(28) Rechg(37) Rechg(40)
30) --> Bone Smasher==> Acc(30) EndRdx(31) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Dmg(34) Acc(46)
32) --> Hibernate==> Rechg(32)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Acc(35) EndRdx(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(37) Acc(45)
38) --> Total Focus==> Acc(38) EndRdx(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(40) Acc(46)
41) --> Block of Ice==> Acc(41) Acc(42) Hold(42) Hold(42) EndRdx(43) Rechg(43)
44) --> Ice Blast==> Acc(44) EndRdx(45)
47) --> Ice Storm==> Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(50) Dmg(50)
49) --> Air Superiority==> Acc(49) EndRdx(50)
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01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
02) --> Rest==> Rechg(2)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
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and then id look at it more deeply when i level:P

I didnt think of howl cos i was talking about damage mitigation powers, -res is damage mitigation in terms of fight duration to me though. On a defender like my trick archer i have had no problem finding the slots for flash arrow (no accs for pve) whereas on a controller/TA like i said, i really, really would.

She is roughly like this at 34 (quick knock up):

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Name: Little Hawk
Level: 34
Archetype: Defender
Primary: Trick Arrow
Secondary: Archery
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01) --> Flash Arrow==> TH_DeBuf(1) TH_DeBuf(34) TH_DeBuf(34)
01) --> Snap Shot==> Acc(1)
02) --> Glue Arrow==> Rechg(2) Rechg(3) Rechg(3) Slow(5) Slow(5) Slow(31)
04) --> Entangling Arrow==> Acc(4)
06) --> Ice Arrow==> Acc(6) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Hold(23) Hold(25) Acc(25)
08) --> Poison Gas Arrow==> Rechg(8) Rechg(9) Rechg(9) Sleep(17) Sleep(17) Sleep(31)
10) --> Hasten==> Rechg(10) Rechg(11) Rechg(11)
12) --> Acid Arrow==> Rechg(12) Rechg(13) Rechg(13) DefDeBuf(15) DefDeBuf(15) DefDeBuf(33)
14) --> Hover==> Fly(14)
16) --> Fly==> Fly(16)
18) --> Disruption Arrow==> Rechg(18) Rechg(19) Rechg(19)
20) --> Aid Other==> IntRdx(20) Heal(21) Heal(21) Heal(23)
22) --> Stimulant==> IntRdx(22)
24) --> Blazing Arrow==> Acc(24)
26) --> Oil Slick Arrow==> Rechg(26) Rechg(27) Rechg(27) Dmg(29) Dmg(29) Dmg(31)
28) --> Assault==> EndRdx(28)
30) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(30)
32) --> EMP Arrow==> Acc(32) Rechg(33) Rechg(33) Rechg(34)
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01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
01) --> Vigilance==> Empty(1)
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With 30 toons to think about im not sure how good my slotting is but i didnt make a defender to solo.

I joined a team with my trick archer. First thing i check for was how well the tank was going to keep villains in my debuff zone. Upon checking i realised there was no aggro control capability but for using gauntlet which is not good news for me. "Gauntlet is not autohit!"
Anyway i also noticed that at their height of level 34 they had 3 debt badges, I was like omg! Thats 800k of debt paid off!
With a a decent enough controller in the team i just had to stay to see how comical the tank was and lets just say i was not disappointed.

on a controller i doubt i could spare the slots for flash arrows tohit debuffs but like you i have a defender and not many better damage mitigation powers to slot until epics (you can get a sleep, a disorient and a knockback with sonic blast) but mine has 3 tohit debuffs in it because when it stacks with someones defence it has to help them a lot more in terms of survivability. Way i see it is if its worth slotting 3 defence slots in powers like tough hide its worth slotting 3 tohit debuffs on flash arrow.

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Yea.. for the flying Inv/ tank , AS wins hands down tbh..

LOL! and i quoted it!

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I think Aerie's planning on being the drainer rather than the drainee

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In pvp with any really good elec/elec blasters, invulns would pretty much just need to fully kit out on blues and break frees. The serious problem would be kinetic defenders who have repel.

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Yea.. for the flying Inv/ tank, AS wins hands down tbh..

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Not if your /ss or /stone and you dont fly. I was advised once on taking air sup in a respec. After a day i respecd it out i hated it that much. For me it didnt even compete. The lack of range sucked and the damage although air sup can make up for it over time, but my attack chain is good enough without air superiority. I had also had fight pool then and boxing looked like jab and air superiority looked like haymaker and it was so annoying.

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Last night i was in a team with a inv/ss tank who only had 3 from his primary and this at level 23...
As i recall he had unyielding, resist physical damage and temp invulnerability..

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shocking

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He hardly used his toggles as they cost to much endurance..

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He only has 2!

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But then one tank laughed at my advice about Air Superiority insted of hover and told him to "pick Superspeed" instead..

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tbh the /ss tanker could take hurl but if he is going fly route then air sup is okay.

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myself i plan on SS on my Stone/fire tank even though everyone tells me Teleport is the only way to go for Granite)

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You need to get up a ledge quick, *turns off rooted* "OMG HELD!" Something had a hold duration on you whilst you were rooted. Thats partly why people take tp also whilst rooted you may only be as fast as somewhere near normal run speed.

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Inv/SS or Inv/EM for that matter tells me the player wants to play a Hulk or Superman school of tanking, throwing themselves at the opponent and bash away, not herd 17 mobs and then drag them around a corner and read a newspaper while the team kills off the mobs.

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Well you dont have to read the paper, perhaps you may want to make every different debuffing defender set and see why herding has its plus points.(i have every type of defender btw).

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How do you give advice?
DO you give advice on how to make it better from the players point of view, or from your own?
Be honest now..

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I like every powerset in team to assist everyother powerset in team in being very effective and important. A fun build to have is important, but if its far from what people may expect it helps to inform people.

For PVE teaming id have taunt in the build, for PVP teaming id have taunt in the build. Taunt is nigh on a must have!

Impale is good but it wont pull a boss of a tank and when one is fighting +5s i might have to do that.

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I never bothered with Tough and Weave myself, because:
1) when soloing I dont have any need for them, not even on invincible.
2) when in a team I expect the support ATs to actually support me, either by healing or debuffing/buffing or just take their 'share' of the aggro.. Either way, again, I have no need for them.

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This is how i feel, but on another post i had said i may get weave again because im tired of asking people to do things so that they are actually useful lol. Weave will reduce the need for other AT support. As far as share of aggro goes all of my scrappers have taunt, thats to get the bosses a tank is least likely to want to have to deal with on top of the rest of the mob. As a tank its only with scrappers id want to share aggro with. The rest damage mitigate or in the blasters case multihits the hell out of everything killing fight duration.

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Oh and pick up air sup. instead of hover and drop energy punch.

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Yeah keep AVs from flying so everyone can hit them on the ground.

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Does Invulnerabilty powerset have any endurance drain resistance?

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No, you pretty much have to be offensive on the end draining enemies and not allow them to end drain you. People tend to use holds on main end drainers like sappers. Weave will help to some extent but even with say a defence bubble or fortitude someone like a dark ring mistress will still have a good chance of getting you although all the other usual carnies being arrested around you would miss more. Weave is a good power to have. You can tank without it but having it means you will not only get hit far less but you miss out on having to deal with secondary effects like end drain. I used to have it, before defense was scaleable, i got rid of it back then, i even did dreck maps better without it. I have pvp plus glads from pvp zones to get but after i'll get it again just because you have to ask people all the time to do what you expect of them so that they are actually useful. Things like conserve energy and unstoppable can be good back ups in case of trouble as nothing is fullproof. If you have unstoppable and use it on no endurance then fast recharge taunt is good to have. However what other people in the team can often do might offer the better solution.

I could of just said no but you are not the only one who reads these.

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It would not herd, as it could not survive herding

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When i solo my firetanker i herd aggro cap, kill them all and then herd aggro cap again and repeat. Admittedly this could be just even level depending on type of enemy and when soloing you dont get all the boss types you would on big teams unless streethunting (where ya may get upto 3 lieuts), but whilst soloing you wont get the support you would have on big teams. Also mine is Fire/Fire which is supposed to work well, Fire/SS will work well with rage and and footstomp but these are quite a wait.

You can herd, you can grab all the attention but it doesnt mean you have to be taking all the knocks, so much damage mitigation should come from the team around you.

Even support from scrappers! Ideally i'd pull everything, take alphas if i have to and then perhaps the scrapper would taunt the one boss, thats really the only one for me to worry about, off of me. All my scrappers have taunt and i do if needed pretarget the boss and taunt that one to me and deal with it very well. For example my scrapper loves sappers and dark ring mistresses far more than my invuln Shannon ever will. I think states maybe: scrapper runs in keeps bosses occupied and he gets anything else (but i wouldnt have a mindless scrapper choosing where id have to tank).

I dont think there is too much actually wrong with the tanker sets as they are because i am not someone who says "omg my tank cant deal with it!" I look at what is happening, who is doing what, why things happen and what people can do assist eachother from any AT perspective and then make a way for my tank to deal with it as i dont even expect to be the most important part of the team i expect to be an equal part. Most people in my experience dont even try to assist the other ATs at their jobs properly and are the first to say "omg such and such is the suxxors!" usually followed by "we need a healer!" cos its mainly true to those who cant play to suit defensive sets other than an empath and even with them still play badly.