It's not good for taking damage early on, but gets better post-SO's.
I agree with Max Post SO's it is gr8 I love my Fire Tank to bits I have friends who ask me all the time if they can try out a fire tank. It is hard at first but I really feel 1) it is a challenge and 2) can be so much fun.
DD
If you have to play 22 levels before a character becomes fun then something is fundementally flawed with the powers.
Even one no endurance damage resistance power akin to the other tank primaries would make a huge difference.
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If you have to play 22 levels before a character becomes fun then something is fundementally flawed with the powers.
[/ QUOTE ]Fun? I didn't say that, I just said the survivability increases. You can scrank quite well up to that level, and even tank if you have support. So it can be FUN at low levels, it just won't be able to take too much damage.
Agreed - playing my fire / axe tank this morning on a team as a scranker rather than a tanker was superb fun. End is a problem - but a manageable one. Able to take on mobs of whites and yellows without too much of a problem. He's currently at level 7.
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All depends on how you define fun really.
Most of my toons were a slog up to around lvl 25 until I'd got SO's slotted in. Its true to say for most tanks - that you really realise the difference when SOs come into play and then suddenly realise what your potential can be.
Fire tanks, at least for me require stamina, tough and weave and acrobatics - as well as the fire shields - minus temp protection unless something has changed - so yes, that feeling of toughness will come a bit later on in the build becasue of the reliance upon pool powers which other tankers don't have to the same degree.
My f/f tank recently dinged 23 and I have to say its become a lot of fun now! Yes, you need to be patient till around there, but I'm loving the burn!!
Do you find it viable to be the tank on a team as a fire tank until SO's become available?
I was just thinking that the aggro plus the squishy must be a nightmare.
Tank (as in keeping full aggro) without proper support? Definitely not.
Scrank, and keep some of the aggro? Yup.
Have to agree. Played a fire/ice tank to 50.
Started off with only 1 real attack until level 11, then I decided to pick some more attacks (it may not sound like it but using only frozen fists and brawl is fun until you can't go on any longer)
At level 20 I had the combo I was waiting for, icepatch + burn. I respecced, got my travel power (which I left out in order for attacks from 12 on) and since then it was alot of fun.
Mid 20s you get a hold and with your epic pool you can add a second hold, a team will love you for tanking AND being able to stop those damn sappers in a hold.
Hi Bastard2k,
I'm going the same route as you, the Ice patch + Burn combo. Currently I'm using Blazing Aura to augment the low damage of ice.
How well does the Ice patch + Burn combo work?
On a side note, how the devs should fix the Fire Tank:
1. Put an immob into one of the shields, from a concept point of view it would make sense that you are able to burn through the immob effect.
2. when you drop Burn you are superheating the ground. It would make sense to put disorient and slow effects into the patch as the ground becomes sticky/tacky and the heat effects the mob.
This would allow Burn to both do some extra damage and reduce the amount of damage taken by the Tank.
3. Put -Knockback in the Burn patch due to the Sticky effect of the heated ground.
It wont happen of course!
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Heya Psiphon,
The Combo is an amazing Minion-Killer. Until the 40s the built was lacking burst damage to deal effectively with EBs (I mainly soloed), because I got the fighting pool and my self rez in the 30s.
It still is no real damage dealer, but the control effects and the added "armour" from Icepatch (due to foes slipping) makes the built none the less effective 
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Tank (as in keeping full aggro) without proper support? Definitely not.
Scrank, and keep some of the aggro? Yup.
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I agree with Max here. Its really fun to do if you don't mind relying on the other guys helping you out - and you DO need to rely on them. I've always said that a good Tank shouldn't rely on a healer, but it becomes necessary once you have multiple mobs or bigger/higher lvl mobs due to team size.
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I've always said that a good Tank shouldn't rely on a healer, but it becomes necessary once you have multiple mobs or bigger/higher lvl mobs due to team size.
[/ QUOTE ]A healer is not necessary, some bubbles/rings/debuffs will do the job well.
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I've always said that a good Tank shouldn't rely on a healer, but it bigger/higher lvl mobs due to team size.
[/ QUOTE ]A healer is not necessary, some bubbles/rings/debuffs will do the job well.
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Absolutely. I should have said "... relying on someone to help you! ! becomes necessary once you have multiple mobs or...etc"
Hi Bastard2k,
Thanks for the response, couple of quick questions.
Did you need Taunt or was blazing Aura enough to pull the mobs into a tight enough area to use Ice patch effectively?
Did you use Fiery Embrace and is it worth it as your using Burn for most of your damage?
Thanks
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
I must admit I was quite despondent about my Fire/Axe tank until quite recently (she'd been sitting at lvl16 for aaages...) but, after getting her up to SO level (22 with inf transfers 
) and having her as the primary - if not sole tank - for a number of TFs she's shining in the midst of a good group. 
(Currently lvl 25, going on 26).
Yes, the early levels can be a pain and somewhat of a chore to get through - no problem admitting that - but, with a few good regular teams, things improve dramatically.
As has been said, Fire blossoms later but is still a highly viable set.
I have taunt (had it actually before Blazing Aura) but I mostly use it in big teams, and even then rarely. I gather my aggro by using Combat Jump to get into the middle of the mobs and occasionally Consume, along with BA. It normally is enough to get along, but taunt helps, especially against AVs when/if your attacks and aura are not hitting.
I don't have FE but thanks to I7 it is useful for Burn as well, but I found no room for it, yet. Also, seeing my only fire attacks are BA and Burn, I don't see as much use in it as a fire/fire tank would have.
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Did you need Taunt or was blazing Aura enough to pull the mobs into a tight enough area to use Ice patch effectively?
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I think blazing aura may be one of the weaker taunt auras. It won't grab them for long if you move around everywhere, but if you jump into a crowd, and taunt the remoter ones, you'll be fine. If you are allowed time to herd, you'll have no trouble leading them all around a corner with a icepatch on it.
The ice patch slow debuff seems to annoy them too, which is good
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Did you use Fiery Embrace and is it worth it as your using Burn for most of your damage?
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Remember it buffs all attacks, not just fire. It just buffs fire longer.
I found it worked particularly nicely with a frost cone too.
It will buff burn now too, in case you were worried.
[i]If they get there first they'll make our dreams come true.
If we get there first we can stop them.[/i]
I've been playing a lowbie Fire/SS lately and the more I think about it and juggle the power selections in the builder, the more I feel like I'm going for it in a backwards way. I'm building a tanky tank, and it seems to me that Fiery Aura just isn't intended to be a tanky tank. By padding the glaring defensive holes I'm sacrificing offence, and offence is the only thing Fire tankers have going for them apart from pretty graphics. I think the Dev ideal of Fire tankers is a scranker that will do moderate damage and hold more than his share of aggro, but isn't able to handle aggro cap size spawns without heavy support. The idea seems to fit straight in with the Statesman school of tanking.
Making a sturdy Fire tanker that still has good damage is really hard. Blazing Aura just doesn't feel that effective as a taunt aura. I would be tempted to slot it with a taunt enhancement or two but the problem is it also needs accuracy (because there's no autohit portion), damage (because otherwise there's no point to being a Fire tanker) and endurance reduction (because it's really end heavy). Basically, it should be 9-slotted. Fitting in Fighting pool to help with those subpar defences , Stamina to run all those toggles and Taunt to cover for the inefficiency of Blazing Aura, that leaves very little room for Fiery Embrace, Burn and attacks from the secondary. You know, that stuff the set is supposedly balanced for.
Playing a devil's advocate, what if one built a Fire tanker primarily for offence? Would a fire tanker with no Fighting or Medicine pools, Blazing Aura slotted primarily for damage, Burn to be used whenever there's immob/knockdown/slow power around and a good assortment of well slotted secondary attacks be actually better at pulling its weight in a large team, if we forget for a second the perceived role of a tanker? This hypothetical "tanker" would concentrate on a subgroup of enemies, using Taunt only sparingly, when really needed. It would not herd, as it could not survive herding. Could the damage ever be enough to offset the lack of effective large scale aggro management?
Right now I'm trying to go for a best of both worlds approach. I'm doing alright so far but that's because I'm always grouped with a Dark defender. I'm convinced I'd be having a miserable time without him. I do think it will get much better by the late 20s, though.
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I've been playing a lowbie Fire/SS lately and the more I think about it and juggle the power selections in the builder, the more I feel like I'm going for it in a backwards way. I'm building a tanky tank, and it seems to me that Fiery Aura just isn't intended to be a tanky tank. By padding the glaring defensive holes I'm sacrificing offence, and offence is the only thing Fire tankers have going for them apart from pretty graphics. I think the Dev ideal of Fire tankers is a scranker that will do moderate damage and hold more than his share of aggro, but isn't able to handle aggro cap size spawns without heavy support. The idea seems to fit straight in with the Statesman school of tanking.
Making a sturdy Fire tanker that still has good damage is really hard. Blazing Aura just doesn't feel that effective as a taunt aura. I would be tempted to slot it with a taunt enhancement or two but the problem is it also needs accuracy (because there's no autohit portion), damage (because otherwise there's no point to being a Fire tanker) and endurance reduction (because it's really end heavy). Basically, it should be 9-slotted. Fitting in Fighting pool to help with those subpar defences , Stamina to run all those toggles and Taunt to cover for the inefficiency of Blazing Aura, that leaves very little room for Fiery Embrace, Burn and attacks from the secondary. You know, that stuff the set is supposedly balanced for.
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That sounds about right to me. The real question is, will people (both the tank and the team) be able to accept this role?
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Playing a devil's advocate, what if one built a Fire tanker primarily for offence? Would a fire tanker with no Fighting or Medicine pools, Blazing Aura slotted primarily for damage, Burn to be used whenever there's immob/knockdown/slow power around and a good assortment of well slotted secondary attacks be actually better at pulling its weight in a large team, if we forget for a second the perceived role of a tanker? This hypothetical "tanker" would concentrate on a subgroup of enemies, using Taunt only sparingly, when really needed. It would not herd, as it could not survive herding. Could the damage ever be enough to offset the lack of effective large scale aggro management?
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Again, this will only work if the rest of the team is happy with the tank playing a caring scrapper. In this case it's not important if Statesman thinks this is the role of a tank because tanks could do so much more. And some other tanker sets can arguably still do/take more then a fire tank. So why settle on a scranker when theres an 'real' tanker also looking for a team? Why a scranker if theres a scrapper available aswell? Tbh the fire tanker falls inbetween both ATs, which isn't a big problem but can make levelling one fairly frustrating.
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It would not herd, as it could not survive herding
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When i solo my firetanker i herd aggro cap, kill them all and then herd aggro cap again and repeat. Admittedly this could be just even level depending on type of enemy and when soloing you dont get all the boss types you would on big teams unless streethunting (where ya may get upto 3 lieuts), but whilst soloing you wont get the support you would have on big teams. Also mine is Fire/Fire which is supposed to work well, Fire/SS will work well with rage and and footstomp but these are quite a wait.
You can herd, you can grab all the attention but it doesnt mean you have to be taking all the knocks, so much damage mitigation should come from the team around you.
Even support from scrappers! Ideally i'd pull everything, take alphas if i have to and then perhaps the scrapper would taunt the one boss, thats really the only one for me to worry about, off of me. All my scrappers have taunt and i do if needed pretarget the boss and taunt that one to me and deal with it very well. For example my scrapper loves sappers and dark ring mistresses far more than my invuln Shannon ever will. I think states maybe: scrapper runs in keeps bosses occupied and he gets anything else (but i wouldnt have a mindless scrapper choosing where id have to tank).
I dont think there is too much actually wrong with the tanker sets as they are because i am not someone who says "omg my tank cant deal with it!" I look at what is happening, who is doing what, why things happen and what people can do assist eachother from any AT perspective and then make a way for my tank to deal with it as i dont even expect to be the most important part of the team i expect to be an equal part. Most people in my experience dont even try to assist the other ATs at their jobs properly and are the first to say "omg such and such is the suxxors!" usually followed by "we need a healer!" cos its mainly true to those who cant play to suit defensive sets other than an empath and even with them still play badly.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Now I know that this has probably been said to death but I am so shocked by just how useless my fire tank was at early levels that I had to post to vent even if no-one listens.
I have had fire tanks before but to no great level and I started one again today on Union. At level 8 I was unable to take on one yellow lt and two white minions without using an insp or two. I have no idea how that fits on the imaginary scale of how tough heroes should be but I can tell you that I have never played a more ineffectual toon in eighteen months of altitis. Like a tank who can't take damage. A scrapper with no attacks. Like a brute with no rage, this being the most accurrate comparison in my book. I had endurance problems, I was weak and I did not have fun at all. I ended up deleting him as I could not bear the thought of having all my power choices pre-ordained just to make the toon playable. I resent that the fitness pool is a must nevermind that I have to choose leaping and fighting to stand any chance of actually enjoying myself.
Yes fire tanks were l33t, so what? I could not care less if builds are l33t or not. Superman is not everyone's favourite hero and I do not care one jot if other players have more powerful toons than me. Please put the fun back in to fire tanking as we are left with just 3(!!!!!!!) viable primary choices for tanks atm.