New Dawn

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A tank is no more important than anyone else. But are capable of allowing other sets through multihit capability at less risk do their jobs to maximum effect. Those tanks that dont are chaos tankers. I believe chaos tanking can work, is actually good fun but isnt the most effective way.

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The idea of opening every fight with a tight herding session while no one else is allowed move from their assigned spot bores me to tears so I guess that makes me a chaos tanker. Generally I'd prefer to adapt my playstyle to fit with a team rather than forcing the team to adapt to "the one true way". For me fun > effectiveness and I'd rather sacrifice some of my effectiveness as a tanker if the result is that the other team members have more fun. A little chaos (not necessarily so much chaos that people die) can go a long way to adding enjoyment to a mission. I imagine for some people mission after mission that consist of a procession of herded and tightly packed enemies would be pretty boring.
Each to their own I suppose.

On the Defender side of things it's not all bad at the low levels. When I was playing my solo FF defender in the Hollows I had a few people wish me luck after they saw my search comment about having no bubbles or buffs and that inviting me to their team would lead to death and debt. One fella wanted me to join the team anyway even though all I'd contribute is low-ish damage

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You can point blank mobs, or you can herd one mob away from another depending on the situation. But either way making mobs tight for the safety of others is paramount to the playing of a hero tanker. As a debuffer a tanker with no solid taunt control can powerdebt me and have me serve no point in even trying to debuff a mob through immediately getting debt after. If someone makes a toon they should get to see the best effect of that toon and with minimum worries at being able to do their job.

I am not one who will need a empath immediately after finding out i invited a trick archer to the team. As my empath i have been invited to teams with a rad and a kin but the 2 tanks said they needed me still. The amount of teams with 3 defenders to them on defiant is laughable!

I do not tank to faceplant people, i do not tank with faceplanters and anyone who plays in a way that compromises other people is more a villainous infiltrater in the team than a hero. I am a roleplayer btw i roleplay a hero, not an xp merc, not a show off, not a get one up on someone else pvp player, i bought the game to play a hero.

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Not too boring for the rest of the team to stand back for two to three seconds, I guess.

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That is in fact my minimum requirement or atleast till i get my aoe opener done.

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Exactly. That way it is a whole different ballgame if it is a decent tank demanding more attention by the healer or if it is a scrapper wanting a private healer who on the other hand doesn´t care for all the stray aggro he caused by running through two spawns to get to that boss he wants to fight.

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This is what i dont allow for in the slightest i dont allow for everyones type of fun and i dont care to. Peoples idea of whats good or not will differ and they can play with likeminded people.

With defense you are also likely to miss out on secondary effects alot more as well as any damage. There has to be a borderline figure at which defense outweighs resist and resist out weighs defense but the borderline figure will differ against varying enemies due to type of secondary effect, amount of tohit and type and amount of damage output. So in comparing the two it is a good luck with that also considering there is more -def in the game (you can get good res to def debuff now tho) but more likely, from many peoples experience overall defense is said to be worth 2 resistance.

But I made mine the dark armour brute anyway cos its a sick idea.

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'EDIT:its okay for tanks too expect a personal healer if they can keep ALL the aggro and id sure as hell kick anyone who wont let me herd and consolidate'

but that is the me me me attitude!

paraphrased: its not ok for everyone else, except tanks, of which i am one and if you dont be my personal healer - allowing me to have MY fun i'll kick you.

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As an empath of which i am one, heals go alot further on the tanker than being spread about the team, as do lucks and respites when you dont even have a defender. Its actually good sense for any tanker imo to not risk the need to have to need a heal or buff when getting hit by 16 enemies whilst a blaster is getting healed from being hit by just one more. Heal aura isnt that great a heal, and heal other and absorb pain can only be done to one person at a time so having to heal alot of people at the same time who are dispersed is just asking for trouble whereas healing just the tanker isnt. Someone will faceplant and it could be someone key to the teams survivability ie the tank, controller or the defender themself. The team can be like a pyramid of cards you take one from the bottom and the rest go down.

As a debuffer of which i am every type of it pays for the tanker to include every last enemy amongst the debuff zones.

Even with aoe heals its good to keep them and the team in one place and one place alone.

Its just good team dynamics to me for the tank to be centre of attention no matter what AT i play. I like things from the experience of playing every AT:

Buff tank so tank can herd safely.
Tank taunt controls a tight packed mob so controller or debuffer cant get aggro when they act.
Tight packed mobs means all enemies get debuffed no strays look for debuffer due to being taunt controlled.
Control mob for immediate damage mitigation, no strays look for controller due to being taunt controlled.
Scrapper to bosses or any undesireable, no bosses look to get more vulnerable and are taken down in good time with rest of the mob, scrappers could if necessary taunt bosses and make life easier for tank momentarily.
Blasters aoe tightpacked mob with no chance of getting attacked back, all is multihit for low fight duration.

No deaths done that way. Whole arcs can be done easily.

But not everyone likes to play the same way thats why people play with likeminded people to have fun and i kick people who compromise the way the rest of my team are happy playing cos normally its only one person who doesnt like what i do in a team. They dont want debt cos one guys idea of fun outweighed the team.

I wont tank for a team that doesnt let me play my tank as i see i should. I didnt make a tanker to play like a scrapper. If i want to play a scrapper ill play one. I wouldnt want to level up a trick archer with never being able to effectively play like one and anyone who makes a toon like a dark defender will not be ignored as a valid set and I will play my tank to help them play as they must surely be intended.

With stormies tanks can be made nigh on pointless alot to not even get to call what the tank does as even tanking as they can do is whats known as active defense but saying that every team can function without a tank although with a tank taking aggro everyone else is at less risk and free to perform their tasks better without having to get into personal fights for survival and keep things to where they are combining powers on many foes as opposed to splintering and splitting up.

A tank is no more important than anyone else. But are capable of allowing other sets through multihit capability at less risk do their jobs to maximum effect. Those tanks that dont are chaos tankers. I believe chaos tanking can work, is actually good fun but isnt the most effective way.

So I am not about me, I like to see people play their toons to maximum effect and if one person wants to cause pointless anarchy and debt for the rest of the team they damn well will get kicked. Besides I am playing a hero simulator not a game to see who on the team can cause the first teamwipe because they wanted a look at me i got skills moment.

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Usualy its a view held by people who are poor team players and suffer from the "Me" syndrome. This game is about "Me" this team exists for "Me", you will all support "Me" so "I" can have fun.

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never a truer word said... not great people to team with the majority of the time!

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Great players work as a TEAM always there to assist other people with other sets so that everyone can reach their maximum potential. There is too much scrapper/blapper or scranker mentality in the game whereby people are playing because for example they are a more or less self sufficient scrapper in a way that actually compromises the more vulnerable sets in the team. It could be a case of the more vulnerable set taking a plant because the scrapper wanted to show how l33t he was. I solo mobs with my scrapper but when i do, i say nobody join in, i dont even expect to be healed and am doing it to test my toon. Other people however try to solo mobs away from the rest of the team and expect help, they may not be able to keep aggro and they might not of seen to keep the path to them clear for any defender to come safely. I see this all too often. A scrapper could make a bad pull in order to show his uberness, have everyone get him through his low survivability points, then by not keeping aggro, have other people compromised and then laugh when they are the only one left standing. Also the amount of people who seem to think they have a personal healer when the rest of the team need attention too is unbelieveable but thats when some defenders should stop and let the idiots die.

EDIT:its okay for tanks too expect a personal healer if they can keep ALL the aggro and id sure as hell kick anyone who wont let me herd and consolidate.

Id say its like adding a +3 SO to any attack within the duration of follow up, when you have 3 * +3 SOs eventually in an attack follow up will show ya what itll be like to have 4 SO's. It adds about 39% roughly to your base rate and looks great when you have no damage slotted as the extra damage is really noticeable but as you add more slots, the damage buff is less noticeable. I look at it as temporarily adding an SO.

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*edit* it also means that you will be essentially unable to fight against certain foes, carnies, freaks, malta, any mobs with a modicum of end drain will screw you over royal. At least thats the way I see it as there is no safety net built in.

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Carnies are the worst. I know this might sound weird as usually Malta are accused of a lot of end draining, but I've found that running into a mob of Carnies will make them regularly hit you with a -recovery power. Then once they start dying you'll soon have no more end and not gaining any either... toggles drop, you're held and then you're dead.

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If he is chaos tanking he wont have to stand in the mob of carnies. Chaos tanking is basically constantly making recoveries with foes spread about the place yet with enough attention upon him. Many people love that type of action, many people play to not really give a tank much chance to do otherwise as the anarchy is more fun, i say suck it and see, there are end buffs not just from self and there is a rest button.

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Nicely done , how much of that does HeroBuilder do for you?

I should point out I didn't say put them on the attack you use most often. More a combination of the endurance * how often you intend to use it. Which is effectively what you are doing with your attack chain.

Assuming Herobuilder allows you to specify an attack chain then tells you the EPS for it, there is no reason why it couldn't suggest where to put the next endurance slot as well. Out of interest does it?

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i dont think so. I am still learning how to use herobuilder (editing powers and such, and i do edit them cos they can be wrong!) It was only a couple of months ago when i got Raziel to send me his version of it, i couldnt get elec brutes and such and didnt know about my config settings. It pays to really get into herobuilder and look at the figures closely. It also pays to look at your sustainable damage program as well and try to combine the two. But anyone can see that their endurance starts dropping more dramatically when they start fighting.

I dont really do Maths, i keep saying that cos its true. I didnt know what an attack chain was till Katalina was level 49 (this is my first game ever) and have in an attempt to have a go at min/maxxing (cos it looked interesting) have gone some way on microsoft excel with my own way of looking at builds (mainly tanks) enough to find figures that make tanker secondaries look so balanced its unreal. Gash, chop, beheader, cleave, jab, punch, haymaker, knockout blow, bash, pulverise, jawbreaker, shatter, stonefist, stone mallet, heavy mallet, seismic smash and greater ice sword are basically all the same repackaged power to me and by comparing /axe to /mace you could probably work out how much the disorient is worth in endurance points. When someone said spines is aoe king i worked out how much damage over area spines covered over time compared to claws before thinking yeah i agree.

Anyway i decided whoever makes the powers is a very clever so and so, figured i was searching for "the holy grail" as i dont have the specs for the enemies we fight, what exactly all the parameters that govern balance actually are and decided to just enjoy the game and give up cos i aint good at maths anyway and with only 6 slots to apply to attacks something is always going to be an issue.

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Not a waste in FA, I've noticed a significant difference from the extra 3 slots I've got in it at the moment.

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I would of done it to glacial armour, purely because you have ice patch and usually what doesnt slip up on ice patch uses energy or negative energy attacks. I could be wrong and i am pondering that thought but those last 3 slots on frozen armour will offer a decent bit extra survivability like you say, meh 6 slot glacial as well:P.

Whirling is an aoe it reduces fight duration by multihitting several foes at once in its action time you could of whacked 10 foes giving an effective total of 10 times whatever damage it says in herobuilder against a group and yes with unstoppable you need to apply the resistances of passives really.

This is using 4 of the main katana attacks none of which are slotted for anything. Without recharge involved in the slotting except for haste these could create an attack chain as it is below. These are the most damaging attacks and Divine avalanche is used for extra defence in good time. This attack chain is cyclable. The build has base end recovery and stamina 3 slotted giving a total end recovery of 2.49 EPS.

Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 11.856
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 4.368
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 13.0
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 9.36
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 4.368
Total Action time 10.17 End 42.952

EPS of attack chain is equal to 42.952/10.17 = 4.22

(note it is actually slightly less than that due to tiny recharge of one attack).

Final EPS = EPS - Recovery EPS = 4.22 - 2.49
Final EPS = 1.73

Toggles unslotted for endurance are as follows

Focused Fighting = 0.239 EPS
Focused Senses = 0.239 EPS
Evasion = 0.239 EPS

Total EPS of all toggles= 0.717

Before i even carry on you can already see that the attack chains EPS of 4.22 is clearly higher than the toggles EPS. So which is worth slotting first?

Lets say you only have 4 end slots to put anywhere, this could be one per attack or 4 across 3 toggles. You could say as Dr Rock has said put more on the attack you use most and in this attack chains case its Divine Avalanche but Divine Avalanche ideally would have ample def and acc for survivabilities purposes. So lets say Divine Avalanche is slotted 2 acc 1 end and 3 def. So we'll stick to one end slot per attack.

We get this with attacks slotted for end and toggles unslotted:

Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 8.68
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 3.2
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 9.51
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 6.85
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 3.2
Total Action time 10.17 End 31.44

EPS of attack chain is equal to 31.44/10.17 = 3.09
Final EPS = Attack chain EPS - Recovery EPS + toggle EPS
Final EPS = 3.09 - 2.49 + 0.717
Final EPS = 1.31 (is in fact 1.27 using herobuilder)
Final EPS = 1.73

and you can cover a fight duration of 78 seconds and can cycle the chain nearly 8 times over.

Now this next one is slotting toggles first and attacks second.

Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 11.856
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 4.368
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 13.0
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 9.36
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 4.368
Total Action time 10.17 End 42.952

EPS of attack chain is equal to 42.952/10.17 = 4.22

Toggles slotted for endurance are as follows

Focused Fighting = 0.17 EPS
Focused Senses = 0.17 EPS
Evasion = 0.14 EPS
Total EPS = 0.48

Final EPS = Attack chain EPS - Recovery EPS + toggle EPS
Final EPS = 4.22 - 2.49 + 0.48
Final EPS = 2.21 (is in fact 2.38 using herobuilder)
Final EPS = 2.21

You can cycle the attack chain 4 times over covering a fight duration of just 42 seconds.

So attacks unslotted for end and toggles slotted for end in this case your EPS whilst fighting is 2.38 (using herobuilder) and attacks slotted for end and toggles unslotted for end your EPS whilst fighting is 1.73. The difference between slotting the attacks first and the toggles first is 3 attack chain cycles in this scenario.

If you have a long recharge attack of 100 seconds of an end cost of 10 points and a short recharge attack of 4 seconds with an end cost of 10 points then obviously the one thats a 4 second recharge will get used more and should take priority in slotting.

The bit about each end redux offering an equal amount of extra chance to use a single attack is correct however you need to compare the attack chain EPS with the toggle EPS and if i can afford an end slot on an attack (for some reasons i may not want to) i will before adding any to a toggle. Each end redux added to a toggle isnt really adding anything in terms of how much more i get to use an attack.

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Then bear in mind that each additional end redux lowers the endurance of a power less and less.

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Although that is correct, it is not the same as saying you get less benefit from each additional enhancement (putting ED aside).

For simplicity lets say a SO gave a 30% reduction.

Endurance:

0 SOs : 20
1 SO : 20 * 1/1.3 = 15.38
2 SOs : 20 * 1/1.6 = 12.5

It would appear that the reduction from 1 SO to 2 is smaller, but if you has 200 endurance to use:

0 SOs : 200 / 20 = 10 usages
1 SO : 200 / 15.38 = 13 usages
2 SOs : 200 / 12.5 = 16 usages

So you do get the same benefit from each enhancement.

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All this i see of useful gain applying to the clickie attacks and seeing as toggles stay on add up to saving very little on the toggles. With attacks many people like 3 damage slots and accuracy slots and if its an aoe a recharge can be very good too leaving often little room for a second end slot.

When i want a balanced team and i pick a defender i shouldnt have to care what type, all that matters is i play in the right way to help them help the team better.

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The 3rd end red doesn't give enough. I have 2 end reads on each toggle, and 3 def. I have dark consumption for my top up, but if I didn't extra slots would go into attacks rather than shields for end reduction

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if thats actually meant as a reply to me it may help to actually read my post.

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08) --> Unyielding
* End Reduction(8)
* Damage Resist(9)
* Damage Resist(9)

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add a dam res take one from unstop as you have overslotted way beyond capped res there. It does more than Rel and Ren and is worth slotting prior to either.

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18) --> Invincibility
* End Reduction(18)
* Defense Buff(19)
* Defense Buff(19)
* Defense Buff(23)
* Taunt Duration(29)
* To Hit Buff(43)

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tohits dont do alot as its a small buff that temporarily and situationally increase, this is also very low eps and ya may find even ya first attack better off endurance slotted instead to lower the eps of your attack chain

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20) --> Stamina
* Endurance Modification(20)
* Endurance Modification(21)

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take another res from unstop for same reason and increase your stamina

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32) --> Unstoppable
* Recharge Reduction(32)
* Recharge Reduction(33)
* Recharge Reduction(33)
* Damage Resist(33)
* Damage Resist(34)
* Damage Resist(43)

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just move 2 dam res here to where i said as they wouldnt be doing anything here anyway.

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44) --> Laser Beam Eyes
* Accuracy(44)
* Damage(45)
* Damage(45)
* Defense DeBuff(45)
* Defense DeBuff(46)

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id of took foc acc, yes it requires slotting but it effectively defense debuffs everything around and the +per i find nice to have. However it is a better attack to have than say energy punch, Id of probably said okay conserve, foc acc, laser eyes and then thought sod it torrent is a multihit so get that too.

You being tight and keeping double origins in your build or something cos slotting more than 3 single origins of the same enhancement is a waste.

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49) --> Resuscitate==> Rechg(49) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)

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Not very reassuring are you.

i think ya build is overkill in a few areas like slows in chilling embrace and the amount of taunts you have but however if your taking the chaos tanker route its perfect.

How much?

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And don't listen to ppl who say 'don't slot hide for end reduxs' as nin/nin can be quite end heavy and you'll need all the end you can get because you will end up scrapping in PVE.

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If you can comfortably afford end slots in attacks then do them first before even thinking about toggles *points to sting of the wasp and dark blast*. The attack chain is heaviest on endurance and reducing its consumption means you take longer to get to 0 endurance whilst fighting.

Attack chain EPS = total end cost of all attacks/total action time of attacks.

= more EPS than what ya using with toggles

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To be fair being a "healer" is not a bad thing, neither is it a bad thing to want in a team, would you rather have a "healer" or try to rely on a debuffer defender that you picked up in a PuG ?
Who may or may not know how to play a debuffer..

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Debuffing is straight forward and easy to tell someone when exactly its better to debuff. Its getting a team that plays to suit the debuffer thats the biggest problem.

There is huge lack of players with any understanding of how other players toons work and its as if they expect everything to go as well as it could do by some sheer miracle.

When i lead a team i take any defender and i kick the first person who refuses to assist the defender through playstyle.

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3 rech 2 def 1EndMod for me.

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If i didnt take fitness pool i'd do the same. But seeing as i did, I agree with Unthing with 3 rechg and 3 def

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But that way you'd be missing recharge speed, which you dont really need for toggles. Having some endreds on toggles enables you to have your attacks slotted with 2xacc 3xdmg 1xrech until FS, wich will enable you to have them 1xacc 3xdmg 2xrech (and thus needing just 3 attacks plus BU from primary)

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" or for all the attacks you are comfortable putting end reds in. " <--quote me

and there is no way id limit my kat/sr to 3 attacks like that my damage over time would be weaker unsupported.

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blaming toggles is a newb misconception by people who never did the maths.

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Bit tricky to do the maths when none of the powers within coh give any actual numbers.

The only figures given were given outside of the game...

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You dont even need maths tbh turn toggles off and fight a stonetank in arena and watch your endurance followed by turn toggles on and do nothing and watch your endurance.

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Any suggestions on the slotting? Is it worth having only 1 end slot in the toggles or am i gonna have to try it and see?

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Just get offensive now with 3 damage slots and either additional acc or recharge. Id normally go recharge for minion killing and acc on the single target attack.

You are a super reflex and with quickness you get a recharge buff. If you was a regen you get an end buff. Regens may have a recharge where you would have an end redux.

Because I play different types of tankers at different times i sometimes mix up how i need to play each one and can be over-ambitious versus certain enemy with one type of tank cos i can afford to be with another. Should concentrate on one really.

No, slot as many attacks as your comfortable with slotting with endurance before you even put an endurance slot on a toggle. Then bear in mind that each additional end redux lowers the endurance of a power less and less. Its better to look at other powers in your build and add an end slot than to start immediately 3 slotting toggles to get a overall economical build.

Dont even bother slotting toggles until you have at least one end redux in each attack or for all the attacks you are comfortable putting end reds in. Attack chain is way heavier on end consumption than your toggles. Slotting toggles, blaming toggles is a newb misconception by people who never did the maths. Always start with the most frequently used attacks though.

Despite all the same old time after time, nobody ever learns, goings on on Union raids that probably help to cost its success I'll still be there.

OMG thats proper talent!! Now ya have to get ya times down and soon ya be drawing for comics

Im dead impressed! i might have a go but dont expect to see anything for months with my schedule!

Well anyway what do i need to get started?