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Most guides i've seen suggest 3 def/2 end reds in the SR toggles. Is it worth increasing the end reds to 3 or not?
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Nah... my own (Raziel DX) at 50 uses 3DEF/1 END or 4 DEF, depending on this PvE/PvP situation, but all passives are 3 DEF.
Plus I have Conserve Energy for PvP, so he doesn't suffer as much. Personally, since ED, and the decreased End Use of powers.. 1 or 2 End Reductions, shud be fine overall, depending on what your primary is, as some are more End-Heavy than others.
No, slot as many attacks as your comfortable with slotting with endurance before you even put an endurance slot on a toggle. Then bear in mind that each additional end redux lowers the endurance of a power less and less. Its better to look at other powers in your build and add an end slot than to start immediately 3 slotting toggles to get a overall economical build.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
The 3rd end red doesn't give enough. I have 2 end reads on each toggle, and 3 def. I have dark consumption for my top up, but if I didn't extra slots would go into attacks rather than shields for end reduction
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
id slot def toggles 3 def 1 end red..better off sticking additional end recs in other powers (attacks/movement) dont forget to 3 slot stamina as soon as you can aswell.
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The 3rd end red doesn't give enough. I have 2 end reads on each toggle, and 3 def. I have dark consumption for my top up, but if I didn't extra slots would go into attacks rather than shields for end reduction
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if thats actually meant as a reply to me it may help to actually read my post.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Then bear in mind that each additional end redux lowers the endurance of a power less and less.
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Although that is correct, it is not the same as saying you get less benefit from each additional enhancement (putting ED aside).
For simplicity lets say a SO gave a 30% reduction.
Endurance:
0 SOs : 20
1 SO : 20 * 1/1.3 = 15.38
2 SOs : 20 * 1/1.6 = 12.5
It would appear that the reduction from 1 SO to 2 is smaller, but if you has 200 endurance to use:
0 SOs : 200 / 20 = 10 usages
1 SO : 200 / 15.38 = 13 usages
2 SOs : 200 / 12.5 = 16 usages
So you do get the same benefit from each enhancement. 
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Its better to look at other powers in your build and add an end slot than to start immediately 3 slotting toggles to get a overall economical build.
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Where you put those slots should really be based on how much endurance the power uses, and how often you intend to use it.
Have gotten lazy and just use Quick Reply most of the time, it weas directed to the op
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
This is using 4 of the main katana attacks none of which are slotted for anything. Without recharge involved in the slotting except for haste these could create an attack chain as it is below. These are the most damaging attacks and Divine avalanche is used for extra defence in good time. This attack chain is cyclable. The build has base end recovery and stamina 3 slotted giving a total end recovery of 2.49 EPS.
Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 11.856
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 4.368
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 13.0
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 9.36
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 4.368
Total Action time 10.17 End 42.952
EPS of attack chain is equal to 42.952/10.17 = 4.22
(note it is actually slightly less than that due to tiny recharge of one attack).
Final EPS = EPS - Recovery EPS = 4.22 - 2.49
Final EPS = 1.73
Toggles unslotted for endurance are as follows
Focused Fighting = 0.239 EPS
Focused Senses = 0.239 EPS
Evasion = 0.239 EPS
Total EPS of all toggles= 0.717
Before i even carry on you can already see that the attack chains EPS of 4.22 is clearly higher than the toggles EPS. So which is worth slotting first?
Lets say you only have 4 end slots to put anywhere, this could be one per attack or 4 across 3 toggles. You could say as Dr Rock has said put more on the attack you use most and in this attack chains case its Divine Avalanche but Divine Avalanche ideally would have ample def and acc for survivabilities purposes. So lets say Divine Avalanche is slotted 2 acc 1 end and 3 def. So we'll stick to one end slot per attack.
We get this with attacks slotted for end and toggles unslotted:
Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 8.68
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 3.2
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 9.51
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 6.85
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 3.2
Total Action time 10.17 End 31.44
EPS of attack chain is equal to 31.44/10.17 = 3.09
Final EPS = Attack chain EPS - Recovery EPS + toggle EPS
Final EPS = 3.09 - 2.49 + 0.717
Final EPS = 1.31 (is in fact 1.27 using herobuilder)
Final EPS = 1.73
and you can cover a fight duration of 78 seconds and can cycle the chain nearly 8 times over.
Now this next one is slotting toggles first and attacks second.
Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 11.856
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 4.368
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 13.0
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 9.36
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 4.368
Total Action time 10.17 End 42.952
EPS of attack chain is equal to 42.952/10.17 = 4.22
Toggles slotted for endurance are as follows
Focused Fighting = 0.17 EPS
Focused Senses = 0.17 EPS
Evasion = 0.14 EPS
Total EPS = 0.48
Final EPS = Attack chain EPS - Recovery EPS + toggle EPS
Final EPS = 4.22 - 2.49 + 0.48
Final EPS = 2.21 (is in fact 2.38 using herobuilder)
Final EPS = 2.21
You can cycle the attack chain 4 times over covering a fight duration of just 42 seconds.
So attacks unslotted for end and toggles slotted for end in this case your EPS whilst fighting is 2.38 (using herobuilder) and attacks slotted for end and toggles unslotted for end your EPS whilst fighting is 1.73. The difference between slotting the attacks first and the toggles first is 3 attack chain cycles in this scenario.
If you have a long recharge attack of 100 seconds of an end cost of 10 points and a short recharge attack of 4 seconds with an end cost of 10 points then obviously the one thats a 4 second recharge will get used more and should take priority in slotting.
The bit about each end redux offering an equal amount of extra chance to use a single attack is correct however you need to compare the attack chain EPS with the toggle EPS and if i can afford an end slot on an attack (for some reasons i may not want to) i will before adding any to a toggle. Each end redux added to a toggle isnt really adding anything in terms of how much more i get to use an attack.
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Then bear in mind that each additional end redux lowers the endurance of a power less and less.
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Although that is correct, it is not the same as saying you get less benefit from each additional enhancement (putting ED aside).
For simplicity lets say a SO gave a 30% reduction.
Endurance:
0 SOs : 20
1 SO : 20 * 1/1.3 = 15.38
2 SOs : 20 * 1/1.6 = 12.5
It would appear that the reduction from 1 SO to 2 is smaller, but if you has 200 endurance to use:
0 SOs : 200 / 20 = 10 usages
1 SO : 200 / 15.38 = 13 usages
2 SOs : 200 / 12.5 = 16 usages
So you do get the same benefit from each enhancement.
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All this i see of useful gain applying to the clickie attacks and seeing as toggles stay on add up to saving very little on the toggles. With attacks many people like 3 damage slots and accuracy slots and if its an aoe a recharge can be very good too leaving often little room for a second end slot.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Nicely done , how much of that does HeroBuilder do for you?
I should point out I didn't say put them on the attack you use most often. More a combination of the endurance * how often you intend to use it. Which is effectively what you are doing with your attack chain.
Assuming Herobuilder allows you to specify an attack chain then tells you the EPS for it, there is no reason why it couldn't suggest where to put the next endurance slot as well. Out of interest does it?
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This is using 4 of the main katana attacks none of which are slotted for anything. Without recharge involved in the slotting except for haste these could create an attack chain as it is below. These are the most damaging attacks and Divine avalanche is used for extra defence in good time. This attack chain is cyclable. The build has base end recovery and stamina 3 slotted giving a total end recovery of 2.49 EPS.
Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 11.856
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 4.368
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 13.0
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 9.36
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 4.368
Total Action time 10.17 End 42.952
EPS of attack chain is equal to 42.952/10.17 = 4.22
(note it is actually slightly less than that due to tiny recharge of one attack).
Final EPS = EPS - Recovery EPS = 4.22 - 2.49
Final EPS = 1.73
Toggles unslotted for endurance are as follows
Focused Fighting = 0.239 EPS
Focused Senses = 0.239 EPS
Evasion = 0.239 EPS
Total EPS of all toggles= 0.717
Before i even carry on you can already see that the attack chains EPS of 4.22 is clearly higher than the toggles EPS. So which is worth slotting first?
Lets say you only have 4 end slots to put anywhere, this could be one per attack or 4 across 3 toggles. You could say as Dr Rock has said put more on the attack you use most and in this attack chains case its Divine Avalanche but Divine Avalanche ideally would have ample def and acc for survivabilities purposes. So lets say Divine Avalanche is slotted 2 acc 1 end and 3 def. So we'll stick to one end slot per attack.
We get this with attacks slotted for end and toggles unslotted:
Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 8.68
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 3.2
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 9.51
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 6.85
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 3.2
Total Action time 10.17 End 31.44
EPS of attack chain is equal to 31.44/10.17 = 3.09
Final EPS = Attack chain EPS - Recovery EPS + toggle EPS
Final EPS = 3.09 - 2.49 + 0.717
Final EPS = 1.31 (is in fact 1.27 using herobuilder)
Final EPS = 1.73
and you can cover a fight duration of 78 seconds and can cycle the chain nearly 8 times over.
Now this next one is slotting toggles first and attacks second.
Golden Dragonfly Act 2 End 11.856
Divine Avalanche Act 2.17 End 4.368
Lotus Drops Act 2 End 13.0
Soaring Dragon Act 2 End 9.36
Divine Avalanche Act 2 End 4.368
Total Action time 10.17 End 42.952
EPS of attack chain is equal to 42.952/10.17 = 4.22
Toggles slotted for endurance are as follows
Focused Fighting = 0.17 EPS
Focused Senses = 0.17 EPS
Evasion = 0.14 EPS
Total EPS = 0.48
Final EPS = Attack chain EPS - Recovery EPS + toggle EPS
Final EPS = 4.22 - 2.49 + 0.48
Final EPS = 2.21 (is in fact 2.38 using herobuilder)
Final EPS = 2.21
You can cycle the attack chain 4 times over covering a fight duration of just 42 seconds.
So attacks unslotted for end and toggles slotted for end in this case your EPS whilst fighting is 2.38 (using herobuilder) and attacks slotted for end and toggles unslotted for end your EPS whilst fighting is 1.73. The difference between slotting the attacks first and the toggles first is 3 attack chain cycles in this scenario.
If you have a long recharge attack of 100 seconds of an end cost of 10 points and a short recharge attack of 4 seconds with an end cost of 10 points then obviously the one thats a 4 second recharge will get used more and should take priority in slotting.
The bit about each end redux offering an equal amount of extra chance to use a single attack is correct however you need to compare the attack chain EPS with the toggle EPS and if i can afford an end slot on an attack (for some reasons i may not want to) i will before adding any to a toggle. Each end redux added to a toggle isnt really adding anything in terms of how much more i get to use an attack.
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Then bear in mind that each additional end redux lowers the endurance of a power less and less.
[/ QUOTE ]
Although that is correct, it is not the same as saying you get less benefit from each additional enhancement (putting ED aside).
For simplicity lets say a SO gave a 30% reduction.
Endurance:
0 SOs : 20
1 SO : 20 * 1/1.3 = 15.38
2 SOs : 20 * 1/1.6 = 12.5
It would appear that the reduction from 1 SO to 2 is smaller, but if you has 200 endurance to use:
0 SOs : 200 / 20 = 10 usages
1 SO : 200 / 15.38 = 13 usages
2 SOs : 200 / 12.5 = 16 usages
So you do get the same benefit from each enhancement.
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All this i see of useful gain applying to the clickie attacks and seeing as toggles stay on add up to saving very little on the toggles. With attacks many people like 3 damage slots and accuracy slots and if its an aoe a recharge can be very good too leaving often little room for a second end slot.
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Although that is correct, it is not the same as saying you get less benefit from each additional enhancement (putting ED aside).
For simplicity lets say a SO gave a 30% reduction.
Endurance:
0 SOs : 20
1 SO : 20 * 1/1.3 = 15.38
2 SOs : 20 * 1/1.6 = 12.5
It would appear that the reduction from 1 SO to 2 is smaller, but if you has 200 endurance to use:
0 SOs : 200 / 20 = 10 usages
1 SO : 200 / 15.38 = 13 usages
2 SOs : 200 / 12.5 = 16 usages
So you do get the same benefit from each enhancement.
Quote:
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Its better to look at other powers in your build and add an end slot than to start immediately 3 slotting toggles to get a overall economical build.
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Where you put those slots should really be based on how much endurance the power uses, and how often you intend to use it.
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Zounds! Its a Karol Vorderman convention!
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Nicely done , how much of that does HeroBuilder do for you?
I should point out I didn't say put them on the attack you use most often. More a combination of the endurance * how often you intend to use it. Which is effectively what you are doing with your attack chain.
Assuming Herobuilder allows you to specify an attack chain then tells you the EPS for it, there is no reason why it couldn't suggest where to put the next endurance slot as well. Out of interest does it?
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From what I see, if she uses the same one I have (which I sent her a copy of), it has a Attack Chain Planner with EPS stats on it, where you can plan the attack chain as you want it, based on variables you specific.
Surprisingly enough, Shan' hardly uses a Hero Builder LoL .. she's a maths chick.. =D .. gotta love her for it.
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From what I see, if she uses the same one I have (which I sent her a copy of), it has a Attack Chain Planner with EPS stats on it, where you can plan the attack chain as you want it, based on variables you specific.
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I don't have much use for guides myself, but that does sound like a nice feature.
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Surprisingly enough, Shan' hardly uses a Hero Builder LoL .. she's a maths chick.. =D .. gotta love her for it.
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I had guessed as much, did sound like Hero Builder was only being used for confirmation.
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Nicely done , how much of that does HeroBuilder do for you?
I should point out I didn't say put them on the attack you use most often. More a combination of the endurance * how often you intend to use it. Which is effectively what you are doing with your attack chain.
Assuming Herobuilder allows you to specify an attack chain then tells you the EPS for it, there is no reason why it couldn't suggest where to put the next endurance slot as well. Out of interest does it?
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i dont think so. I am still learning how to use herobuilder (editing powers and such, and i do edit them cos they can be wrong!) It was only a couple of months ago when i got Raziel to send me his version of it, i couldnt get elec brutes and such and didnt know about my config settings. It pays to really get into herobuilder and look at the figures closely. It also pays to look at your sustainable damage program as well and try to combine the two. But anyone can see that their endurance starts dropping more dramatically when they start fighting.
I dont really do Maths, i keep saying that cos its true. I didnt know what an attack chain was till Katalina was level 49 (this is my first game ever) and have in an attempt to have a go at min/maxxing (cos it looked interesting) have gone some way on microsoft excel with my own way of looking at builds (mainly tanks) enough to find figures that make tanker secondaries look so balanced its unreal. Gash, chop, beheader, cleave, jab, punch, haymaker, knockout blow, bash, pulverise, jawbreaker, shatter, stonefist, stone mallet, heavy mallet, seismic smash and greater ice sword are basically all the same repackaged power to me and by comparing /axe to /mace you could probably work out how much the disorient is worth in endurance points. When someone said spines is aoe king i worked out how much damage over area spines covered over time compared to claws before thinking yeah i agree.
Anyway i decided whoever makes the powers is a very clever so and so, figured i was searching for "the holy grail" as i dont have the specs for the enemies we fight, what exactly all the parameters that govern balance actually are and decided to just enjoy the game and give up cos i aint good at maths anyway and with only 6 slots to apply to attacks something is always going to be an issue.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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i dont think so. I am still learning how to use herobuilder (editing powers and such, and i do edit them cos they can be wrong!) It was only a couple of months ago when i got Raziel to send me his version of it, i couldnt get elec brutes and such and didnt know about my config settings. It pays to really get into herobuilder and look at the figures closely. It also pays to look at your sustainable damage program as well and try to combine the two. But anyone can see that their endurance starts dropping more dramatically when they start fighting.
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I was tempted to do a character builder, just because the existing ones are a bit ugly. But I don't have the time and it would be reinventing the wheel a lot. The number gathering alone would depress me. Plus I see Red Tomax is building one, which I have no doubt will be the dogs danglies, as everything he does seem to have a certain flair.
As I don't play anymore, I wouldn't want to commit too much more effort, as the maths isn't going to keep me interested forever.
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I dont really do Maths, i keep saying that cos its true. I didnt know what an attack chain was till Katalina was level 49 (this is my first game ever) and have in an attempt to have a go at min/maxxing (cos it looked interesting) have gone some way on microsoft excel with my own way of looking at builds (mainly tanks) enough to find figures that make tanker secondaries look so balanced its unreal. Gash, chop, beheader, cleave, jab, punch, haymaker, knockout blow, bash, pulverise, jawbreaker, shatter, stonefist, stone mallet, heavy mallet, seismic smash and greater ice sword are basically all the same repackaged power to me and by comparing /axe to /mace you could probably work out how much the disorient is worth in endurance points. When someone said spines is aoe king i worked out how much damage over area spines covered over time compared to claws before thinking yeah i agree.
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That sounds like quite a bit of maths, by normal standards, which is probably why people don't believe you. 
As for the powers, yes everything in Co* is very formulaic, from the powers to the enemies. A design decision was obviously made early on to go for very simplistic, ATs, damage scaling, level scaling etc. Which makes it a very easy game to get in to, it unfortunately doesn't add a lot of depth or player uniqueness.
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Anyway i decided whoever makes the powers is a very clever so and so, figured i was searching for "the holy grail" as i dont have the specs for the enemies we fight, what exactly all the parameters that govern balance actually are and decided to just enjoy the game and give up cos i aint good at maths anyway and with only 6 slots to apply to attacks something is always going to be an issue.
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It is probably the best policy.
Most guides i've seen suggest 3 def/2 end reds in the SR toggles. Is it worth increasing the end reds to 3 or not?
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