Nethergoat
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Posts
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Quote:I predict the cost will be substantially higher than you expect, whether in $$$, time invested, or both.Originally Posted by DustRaven
How they'll handle it will be almost exactly as I have predicted. My secret here is that there have already been hints as such on the boards, include a statement or two on the subject when the T9VIP rewards were introduced (I'd have to look up the exact posts to quote them, I will if you like but at the moment I'll assume the references to such already in this thread will suffice). It's possible they'll flip and do something else, but based on how successful the current micro-transactions are I doubt adding content they created a year or more ago (from the POV of a year or so from now) will be anything but good for the company. The players who "worked so hard/paid so much" to get access first can still feel special for having done so, and if it doesn't they can still try and feel special by picking up whatever IS at the T9 that only T9 VIPs can get. And if they still can't feel special, then there is no help for them.
Whatever mechanism they settle on needs to serve two masters. -
Quote:What are you on about?Originally Posted by DustRaven
And the more they build up "behind the wall" the more impossible it is for new players to EVER GET THEM!!!
New players can get them whenever they want.
Quote:No one wants to start out by paying hundred of dollars to gain access to what ends up costs another hundreds of dollars.
Oh wait, right, I forgot when you say "NEVER GETTING THEM" you mean "HAVING TO PAY FOR THEM".
My bad! =P
Well, we'll see how they handle it. I'm usually way off on the hardcore fringe of their eventual position on these kinds of things, but given the necessity of keeping the people who did clear all the necessary hurdles happy I don't see a big liberalization of access on the horizon.Quote:No. I said "out of style" not out of style. Huge difference there. In case you still got catch the difference, I mean to say then by the time Celestial Armor comes around again, the majority of people who wanted it bad enough to pay out the nose to get access to it will have done so the last time, and only those who by chance are now at T9 AND actually want it will get it. That's not a large enough incentive for Paragon Studios to even bring it back as a T9 item, unless it's soon.
Tier 9 is not a static population, it will be changing over time.Quote:And from the point of view of those veteran T9ers, what will they do when their options are Celestial Armor and Fire & Ice... again? Nothing.
Presumably new members will have the option of spending tokens on current sets or back catalog bundles.
But, we'll see.
They'll likely wind up somewhere far more liberal than my ideal, while still causing squeals of anguish from the entitlement brigade for whom every bridge is a bridge too far.
Ah no, money is definitely a gate.Quote:No they aren't. Not even enough to compare for discussion sake. They are, in fact, the exact opposite of gated incentives.
no money, no booster.
Super boosters are the evolutionary predecessor of the entire market apparatus. -
PS:
Semi related, while surfing around I ran across this thread, The Path of Most Resistance- Journey Through Legacy Content. Tyger is (rather masochistically, IMHO) trudging through the old school content and issuing periodic reports- possibly of interest to followers of this thread. -
No gameplay to report, but news nonetheless!
As implied by the golden hue of my name, I've rejoined the ranks of honored subscribers thanks to the benevolence of a kind soul.
My only *real* discontent with being a premium player has been the strictly limited number of character slots. As an inveterate marketeer and costume fiddler it's always been my habit to 'visit' a number of characters during any play session, checking their auction slots, messing with their look, maybe collecting a badge or to or running a mission.
This doesn't really work as a premium player, even one with what a genuine 'freemie' would consider a goodly number of slots thanks to years of vet rewards and last week's pickup of 10 character slots on sale in the market.
But when you have upwards of 50 characters you like to 'visit' regularly, Premium limitations make you take a long, hard look at who gets out of jail.
So the first thing I did was log in a bunch of favorite characters I hadn't been able to unlock.
Which took me a while!
I seem to have had a lot of market irons in the fire when I let my account lapse- alas, I have no freaking clue what any of my old schemes were, so it's just a lot of disconnected junk to me now. Happily, found quite a few slots with 10 stacks of valuable recipes picked up at steep discount- some I'll just re-list to get rid of, but it looks like some will be worth crafting to sell the IO's.
My entanglement in another thread about Tier 9 VIP costume bundles inspired me to pull up the VIP screen and drop some tokens on the fire/ice set, mostly just for one character- my stone/fire brute Saint Helen.
My idea for her was magma seething under a rocky crust, which I managed to approximate pretty well with the Mutant pack- dark brown skin, bright orange bioluminescent patches. But checking out the 'fire' options sold me that it was the perfect solution.
Dropped the tokens, logged her in and headed to the tailor.
MAN, that set has some sexy bits!
Played around for probably 45 minutes and came up with a look I'm fairly happy with, mixing the fire/ice stuff with some mutant pack bits. Ended up way closer to my original conception of her look, which is always nice.
Messing around with auras (I wanted that Seismic path aura for her) I came across a TERRIFIC 'volcanic' aura, which I didn't have- had to pick that one up.
Then I stumbled across the back pieces- man alive, that waterfall backpack is SEXY...and I have the perfect character for it.
I gave Saint Helen the 'erupting volcano' back thingie, which looks really cool.....but I'll probably lose it, as in the frenzy of creation I kinda forgot she was a fire brute. Once I got all her auras running things were a little.....crowded.
But the volcanic aura is a really nice compliment to the array of fire toggles- I made it a bright-ish yellow to make it stand out a bit. Really nice.
So, with all those reintroductions out of the way, hopefully I can get back to Lizardroid this evening. -
Quote:One person's "hilariously high" price is another's pocket change.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I think the complaints are more about the fact that the burger's what costs $20 in this case. There's less complaint over charging money, there's more complaint over hilariously high prices.
My impression of the Paragon Market (on admittedly short accquaintance) is of a slick, efficient operation.
Okay, with a clunky interface...but other than that.
Their pricing makes sense- some stuff is worth it for me, some isn't, but I can see the logic behind it. -
Quote:I don't know why anyone would pay hard cash for something it's simple enough to acquire in-game (and earning inf on the market is tailor made for 'casual', time limited players), but apparently they do already....so NC might as well get the $$ over some sleazy gold farming operation.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As a casual friendly game, putting purples on the market makes sense, as not everyone has the time to dedicate to getting the Inf for purples in game, or waiting for them to drop.
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Quote:You, sir, are a Gulzow-Man after my own heart!Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Nope, not a typo. Been saving my points for storage upgrades ever since Freedom went live.
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dear everyone whining about how they're just trying to "make money":
Do you do this every time you go out to eat?
"OH MY GOD, look they TOTALLY want me to buy that appetizer with my meal just to make money! Why is that steak TWENTY DOLLARS when I get get a hamburger for FIVE?!? How come this soda is two bucks when I can get water for free?!?"
It's a store.
Making money is its raison d'être.
This shouldn't be a confounding surprise to anyone.
Did a bunch of the forum population come of age in Soviet Russia or something?
ps:
I'm totally hitting that storage sale.... -
Step one:
say "You wake up on a beach! Nearby is a rowboat buried in the sand! In the distance you can see a shack in the dunes! What do you do?" in broadcast.
Step Two:
/ignore anyone who answers.
Step Three:
Victory! -
Quote:That's one of my favorite examples of Jack's concept of "fun"....Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
A You want to shop for enhancements? YOU Find the shops that sell them.
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Quote:I'm not saying we have to all start out in a burlap smock with rags tied around our feet, Sam. I'm just pointing out that characters gain access to more impressive sartorial displays as they progress through the game.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Three things.
First of all, no it does not. Plenty of MMOs out there let you pick your look separate from your powers and your progression. The Chronicles of Spellborn, despite being a fantasy MMO, still let players pick their armour as costumes.
The stock options in CoH allow for the creation of some genuinely spectacular characters- several of my favorite costumes emerged basically whole from character creation and haven't changed by so much as a pixel.
But they've gained access to more goodies as their careers unfolded, I've just chosen not to use them.
Well, CoH is an MMO first, a superhero genre simulator second.Quote:Secondly, almost all of the MMOs out there are either based on a specific intellectual property with a specific look and feel to it, or are otherwise generic fantasy which is itself a very specific theme. Super heroes are a much more diverse thematic, and one NOT driven by loot as a means for self-determination. Though super hero costumes do change occasionally, most of them are not made from stuff found lying around after defeating the bad guys. Spider-Man didn't do that, Superman didn't do that and the Statesman certainly didn't do that.
I'm fond of saying RP concerns take a back seat to game design- ditto for genre concerns.
I went round and round with this same basic argument when they announced Wentworth's/Black Market- "SUPERHEROES DON'T GO SHOPPING FOR POWERS!"
Okay, true, but...so what?
This is an MMO, and that structure suggests certain obvious frameworks for gamplay.
Quote:Finally, I don't disagree with you that MMOs require progress of some kind. It's what they're built after. What I disagree with is that this progress needs to be cosmetic. Again, there is no "progress" when it comes to cosmetics because these cannot be graded. No look is objectively better than another look. A samurai is not "better" than a medieval knight, nor is a roman soldier better than a US Army soldier. How much a part is worth is not measurable on an overall basis, because how much a part is worth depends on who's going to use it.
I get your point and agree with it from an aesthetic perspective, but I don't think it applies. Once again, MMO first, everything else second.
Over the years I've noticed that players tend to lust after whatever it is they can't have. So from the perspective of many gamers samurai armor is indeed 'better' than a medieval knight's armor simply because the samurai armor is gated.
It's an arbitrary designation, Sam.Quote:Capes are the perfect example of this. For all of the "Capes at 20 shenanigans" (which you're pretty much recreating here step by step), capes are and have always been worthless to me. They're supposed to be "better," a status symbol, and so they're locked behind a mission unlock. But they're not. They're not better. They're specific to "classic" super heroes who, for some reason, are seen as wearing capes, but I don't have any of those. OK, I have ONE of those. Consequently, I've used capes on a small handful of my characters, thus its "prestige" status is worthless to me. It's a junk drop, as it were, since I don't need it.
There was never any reason to not have capes available at creation, other than they were another shiny for players to chase.
I mean, originally we couldn't get a travel power until level 14.
Does that make any genre sense at all?
Heck no, but it makes MMO sense.
MMO first, genre simulator second.
You can look at is as "punishing" players, I guess.Quote:You can't grade aesthetics as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so the only thing you can do is lock stuff at random and punish people whose concepts happen to require these things while giving pretty much nothing to the people whose concepts aren't in the same direction.
I see it as players failing to adapt to the environment.
If I'm at the beach, it doesn't make sense to complain about getting sand in my undies. I mean I'd probably still do it, but "what did you expect dude, you're at the beach." would be a totally justified response from bemused bystanders.
Indeed!Quote:But that's not what the goat wants, both from what I remember from before he left and from what he's said in this thread. He wants those recipes to be rare and hard to attain, because if they're not they might as well be in the costume editor.
If the devs want them to fulfill the role of OOH, SHINY MUST CHASE SHINY!, I'm cool with it, but for pity's sake make then genuinely rare!
I don't see the point of making them drops unless adding them to your character is at least a little bit challenging. Right now they represent the worst of both words- pointless to acquisitive sorts like me and unnecessarily tedious for costume mavens who just want cherub wings for their archery/psi blaster. -
Quote:SHADOW SHARD.Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Anyways, what zone would you make a case for?
'nuff said. -
Quote:Well!Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Being. Able. To. Cherry. Pick. Rewards. Defeats. The. Entire. Purpose. Of. Having. A. Reward. Tree.
Grouchy nailed it- not much else needs to be said.
Although I'm still going to add up the cost of the Wedding Pack components to satisfy my own curiosity. -
Quote:No, they should remain exclusive so that the periodic releases inspire people to spend more $$$.Originally Posted by DustRaven
So, you agree with me that, like the rereleases from the Disney archives, when the rerelase the VIP reward items, they should be released to the general public of the game, and not be held in reserve for VIP only access?
Look at it this way- the more sets they build up 'behind the wall' the greater the desire of the playerbase to access them, the greater the incentive to pony up for Tier 9 in one way or another.
Not quite analogous, but the end result is the same- more consumer spending to get teh shiney. Continuing in that line, selling the rare cards ala carte would erode profits.Quote:I don't follow the fashion industry, but I see your point. A more geeky comparison would be to special release cards in collector card sets, such as rare foil cards. They aren't intended for everyone, but those who really want them will always buy box after box of common card to get them.
Huh- so what 'use' do you put your costumes to?Quote:I honestly don't see either of these as a fair comparison, as in these examples, the "VIP" items in question are meant to be owned and displayed but not used. The VIP costume pieces are meant to be used, worn by a character during play.
Do they enhance your powers? Enable you to withstand more damage? Open up missions unavailable otherwise?
What about the extra costume slots that lie fallow, also stuffed full of carefully constructed outfits?
Costumes are absolutely something to "own and display", exactly like an expensive, exclusive dress or a rare trading card. They're a collectible rarity, the ownership of which makes a certain statement to others in the community.
Not really, as both can be picked up nearly anywhere.Quote:To use your fashion analogy, the common costume pieces available to everyone are like Wrangler jeans, and the VIP stuff is more like Abercrombie & Fitch.
A more apt comparison would be Wranglers to a couture house like Alexander McQueen.
This is where the fashion metaphor breaks down, as costume bits *never* go out of style. Even the worst low rez 'available at launch!' bits have their rabid adherents.Quote:The only difference is that for a short time, the high end stuff is only available to those who've dumped enough money into the game (either all at once, or over a significant period of time). Once new stuff is out, the old VIP fashion is "out of style" and dumped into an outlet store to be sold at a discount to the general public.
How about we look at the nearest development analog to the tier 9 VIP stuff- super boosters. Not exactly the same, as they're available to anyone who cared to pony up, but near enough.
The first release was, I believe, the Wedding Pack- it's been out for an internet eternity. If the devs were believers in 'exclusivity decay' the wedding pack would be our leading indicator. It must be in the Paragon Market, which I can't access at the moment.
But the pack retailed for 9.99.
I'll add up the cost of the component bits when I get home and see what it's selling for today.
I'm guessing I'll find a price point right around ten bucks. -
Quote:I played original white box D&D with low impact dice, so don't presume to teach your granny to suck eggs. Or are you thinking of computer RPGs?Originally Posted by Tenzhi
No, it's the fantasy RPG genre. It just happens that many of the conventions of that genre got grandfathered into MMOs, the bulk of which seem to be fantasy to this day.
In either case, irrelevant.
It's a reality of MMO game design, whatever originally inspired it. -
Quote:What are you on about?Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Seems like you could use your own advice, i started this thread to open up a discussion, see how people like my idea. The fact that you yourself have now openly said that you were irritated about this new system because others didn't have to wait as long as you have, means you'll only fight for you, instead of seeing it both ways.
I'm all for stuff that makes the game survivable over the long haul, whether or not it mollifies my personal inclinations.
People spending money makes the game survivable, the Paragon Market does that more efficiently than the old vet rewards system, so I'm on board. Viva capitalism!
Which is why I like access to tier 9 VIP junk being expensive, and staying expensive. It was conceived and executed as a premium enticement/reward for those's who've already dropped a bundle on the game in one way or another- exclusivity is the point of the exercise.
Uh, yeah, whatever.Quote:And instead of demanding my reasoning, which has been stated a few times, be honest why you don't like my suggestion, because all you have done is speculate, twist words, taken statements out of context by being selective in what you quote, wasting other people's time with meaningless replies and added nothing, and absolutely nothing to this discussion.
But honestly, what is your reasoning?
You seem to feel you've expressed something somewhere around here, but for the life of me all I can find is a standard entitlement whine. -
Quote:No, it's the MMO genre I'm thinking of.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
That's the generic fantasy RPG genre you're thinking of. In the superhero genre it's more typical to start out with full regalia.
It's a genre that demands carrots to dangle for motivation, and bits of kit are popular motivators. -
Quote:Yes, well, opinions based on fact carry more weight with the general public.Originally Posted by Hatred666
Everyone's entitled to their opinions.
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Quote:And I'm still waiting for a valid argument justifying your belief that they should serve you tier 9 VIP treats on a silver platter.Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Sorry that in your view i have not been nice to you, but that is what you get when you just ignore and only look at the parts you want, and then try and counter with silly things.
Yes, well, that is the whole point of the system.Quote:And that is why my initial suggestion stands. All the things you have unlocked, will not be available to the new players, unless they throw a lot of cash at the game.
Working As Intended, in other words.
Please stop projecting, it's embarrassing.Quote:Every time a VIP skips progrssing in their Reward Tree progress to pick a T-VIP reward, they will still not unlock the things you see as 'junk'. And it seems that you are more upset with the fact that people can now throw cash at the game and get where you got while you had to wait several years. You talk about me feeling entitled? YOU are the one who feels this way.
Yes, I was irritated they'd given new players immediate access to all the junk it took me years of continuous subscription to achieve, and at a substantial $$ discount no less. But you ignore the following point, where I say ce'st la vie, it's a brave new world and if the devs think it's better in the long run I'll get on board.
Rather than whinging on endlessly over a done deal, as you've been. -
Quote:It took ED to make me quit the first time...but I ended up picking up CoV and hardly missed a beat.Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Many would quit if they only allowed one characters, merged servers, etc. Major changes cause major annoyance.
But what would be the smallest change that would make you quit?
The trigger for my second hiatus wasn't anything the game did, my son just got old enough to eat all my free time.
I seem immune to changes rated less than 'earth shattering'. -
My original favorite was a kat/regen who made it to level 49 before they made Instant Healing a clickie. I still like him, but keeping him alive nowadays requires a lot of attention and energy. Not a style I enjoy on scrappers, so he's mostly retired.
My current favorite, the eponymous Nethergoat, is a fire/dark who's a machine of AoE destruction.
Lest anyone get the idea I'm a total min-maxer, before my hiatus my favorite was my grav/trick arrow controller, but he needs a respec before I can play him again so he's on the shelf. -
GRaaaaaaAAaaaahbalaalaaaaraaaaaaagh!!
Not being able to post in the market forum has been KILLING ME this past month!
Count me in any Crazy 88 shenanigans, once I get my empire up and rolling again. -
Three cheers for Dr. Aeon!
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Quote:Well, I understand the desire- sure, it'd be great to start a game with every conceivable option available at creation.Originally Posted by Mister Rik
I think his point was that some "costume" parts might actually be a physical part of the character rather than being part of a costume that that the character puts on and takes off, so they should be accessible at creation. For example, a humanoid bird character wouldn't buy his wings, he'd already have them as part of his body. A robotic character might have been built with rocket boots (though that might be moot since you can't fly until level 4 anyway).
But we are playing a game, and the conventions of the genre dictate that we start off (relatively) plain and simple and grow more wondrous only with effort and experience.
CoH provides far, *far* more options for fully realizing your avatar's true nature than any other game out there, even at character creation with no bonus stuff. Insisting on MOAR in the face of that bounty strikes me as pure monomania. -
thanks for the tips- I'm standing at the other Steel Canyon contact and will hopefully have time for a run tonight.
It's been a while since I ran Faultline so I'll check it out- also, as an elec/elec scrapper I'm finding that Clockwork just don't inspire the fear they used to. =P
I did pick up the First Ward, so I'll definitely be heading there at some point.
And I don't think I've set foot in Striga since it was first released....no, wait, I did that awesome TF with the giant robot one time. But it's basically virgin territory- another good tip.