Memphis_Bill

[ QUOTE ]
Unlikely to ever happen for the simple fact that Positron is afraid of clowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the biggest one, right here.

(That and honestly, by the time we're done with V-day, I'm rather sick of events.... but that's just me.)

I could see the devs pulling something similar - they did, as I recall, put "fake" badges and such into the .pigg files to throw off those who went swimming with swine, and do tend to have a sense of humor. Just not this particularly.

[ QUOTE ]
Please note that I'm typing this in a completely calm and rational manner with no negative connotations or insult intended.
-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pity that, thanks to some people, a disclaimer like this is felt to be needed.

That said, yes, it's a lot of "Same as Martial Arts." Are you (the OP, that is) looking primarily for different animations than what's there? I know the complaint has come up in the past that MA is very "foot attack" heavy, that people would like to see their characters doing something with their hands.

This *could* fall under power customization. Alternately, I know a "Street fighting" powerset comes up as a request at times, too.

The only other way I see, with this much shared, is to do an SoA-like "Pick one choice, the other greys out," if the attacks are comparable. I don't see them redoing MA to incorporate this (especially shared with Stalkers - that might be a mess of a menu) but on the other hand... it could be interesting if they did.

Ahh, misunderstood that.

I don't know of a way of making a *player created* arc localized, where it'd pay attention to that setting. You're typing in straight text, after all.

While we're talking about it - Fix it so that the folks with you fly at the same speed. Last I recalled, unless someone else took the lead and the GFly holder had them on follow, everyone else would slowly fall behind, then out of the bubble and fall.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Cryptic\CoH\Installer Language

[/ QUOTE ]

Where would I go to do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a registry key. I *believe* the options are going to be 0, 1, 2, 3 or some similar thing for setting the language.

Nice find.

... and a late D'oh, should've remembered that from the old costume creator from City of Hero.

Well, we know they're localized for Europe. I don't know if any of that info is over on the US side or not. (Standard code rant) I can't imagine it being *difficult* (well, overly so) to have it available here as well.

I don't know how many people would use the option, but on the other hand, it might make it easier across the board.

Plus, of course, with MA you *can* search localized (English/French/German) arcs. So who knows.

I don't think I'd ever use it, but as far as animation?

Female - ... I forget what they're called, the platform type boots. Doesn't change the leg or animation at all, you just have a thicker "sole." That, at least, would let you get the look down.

The animation, though... yeah, that'd be a *lot* of work, potentially. At the very least you have the "skating" animation. Though if it does what it does for, say, Prestige Power Slide, it'll put you into the normal rooted animations when you attack.

Not quite sure how that'd look.

Given it's a toggle, yeah, a prompt would work better than the (also often suggested) "cancel buff" bit. I know it irritated the heck out of my Stalker who'd have her AS interrupted by a teammate with this on (Bots MM) and suddenly find I'm flying... with lower acc. Or my Earth controller who suddenly couldn't use the various "Must be on the ground" powers.

[ QUOTE ]
unhh can we have a secondary and/or primary respec instead lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

... only if you drip while you walk, and leave standing puddles where you... er... stand.

[ QUOTE ]
Yup. Firmly agreed. (Also firmly agreed that making a Kheldian-like transformation into a Flier and duking it out in the Arena would be an awesome mode. Also giant robots. You didn't say them, but now you will think about them.)

[/ QUOTE ]

>.>

*points to new suggestion post while you were typing.*

Side note:

It bears mentioning, though I did so only in passing before, that I'm completely and totally ignoring PVP for these arguments.

That's a section of the playerbase - and I don't mean just the "hardcore, in the arena every night," but even the casuals who just hop into the zones, a much larger section - that would not put up with the sort of limitations we're throwing around. There's a reason SJ and SS are pretty much the only "acceptable" travel powers (even before the Suppression bit smacked Teleport in PVP to a non-power.)

Those that primarily PVP would not touch this (as a pool) with a whole rack of ten foot poles, even as temp powers (well, actually... an all-temp-power-flyer fight might be interesting, but other than that...)

Those that casually PVP, when they find they can't fight back or are so outclassed by the SS/SJ'ers, either won't go back in the zones or will drop this (again, as a pool) so fast the sound of cars crashing into the junkyard will sound like the 1812 Overture.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Two words. Shadow shard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also two words: You fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Ok. Though it does highlight (to me, and you do somewhat mention this) the issue with having this as a "pool" versus "temp" power.

There are also, as we've sort of seen in this thread, a lot of definitions of "Vehicle." Car, obviously. A flyer of some sort avoids many of the car issues, but still shares some of them (indoor maps, small spaces, collision results.) Some people would call a jetpack/rocketpack a "vehicle" - I don't, typically - or even a skateboard.

It's easier, in some ways, to look at each as a case-by-case basis. And some things are less... jarring, I suppose, for one thing than another. Call something like the Raider jetpack a "vehicle?" Well, I don't, but since we don't have the fineness of movement that would show me, say, landing for a sec, slipping sideways through a door, and flying on the other side, I'm fine with that... where I'm really, REALLY bothered by a car or Longbow/Raider Flyer. Or the water (or Shard like zones) - no issue for a flyer, where it's just *odd* for a car. (Just as an example.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.

Ever.

1) The game engine can't handle it.
2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.
3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.
4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.
5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are the objections you've never seen invalidated? What?

1) The game engine obviously can handle vehicles; they're a part of the game for NPC groups already.


[/ QUOTE ]

... as NPCs themselves.
[ QUOTE ]

2) Large vehicles probably would. Is this a technical objection? Because if it's about taste, there's no way I could ever invalidate it, and asking me to do so is disingenuous at best.

But from my point of view: Also, Burn looks ridiculous while swimming, Strangler looks ridiculous used on many footless flying enemies, Stone Cages looks ridiculous when there's very large monsters in it, and Spines looks ridiculous with a wide variety of costume options. I suppose when there is a dedicated anti-ridiculous campaign instituted for character powers, I'd be concerned enough to propose that vehicles not be allowed in indoor instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's degrees of it. Burn? Napalm, at least some varieties, can burn underwater, as can other incendiary devices. Someone who can manipulate fire, or develop fire-based weaponry, should have no issues with it. Strangler (by the enemies, I'm assuming COT ghosts, for instance) still, as I recall, reaches up to their torsos, so it could "grab" soemthing. Stone Cages scales to what it's enclosing (which makes sense - and Frostbite does the same thing. Actually, many powers do this.) And costumes... well, I can point out several costumes a night that look ridiculous with or without spines.

Regardless, though, each of these instances is... frankly not that - I'm not going to say "immersion breaking" as just *distracting in a WTF way* as having a car slide up to you or appear in a cave.

[ QUOTE ]

4) What? Why on earth would they do something like that? Wouldn't it be much easier to make any enclosed vehicle just disable the character's powers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I'm leaning on "The only really feasable/acceptable way I see is a temp power for some situations." Otherwise, if someone had this as a *pool* - which is how it's normally presented, as in the OP - it's... well, horribly gimped, with no real counteracting advantages.
[ QUOTE ]

5) How To Resolve Pathing Issues With a Car: Step 1: jumpheight -100000%, fly -100. Step 2: Have coffee. If you want to experience this for yourself now, get someone to blast you with web grenade while you've got Super Speed and Combat Jumping on. You will not be able to go anywhere a car could not. You will be able to go over broken terrain and water, but, well, so does Batman's car.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two words. Shadow shard.

Part of the issue, as well, is one of looks. Go get hit by a car in game... one of two things happen. If you get hit, you get pushed. If it hits something else - it goes directly through. (You do this as well with many boats.)

Now, with a car, you're going to be wider and longer than any character. You're going to have a higher chance of "catching" those other vehicles, civilians and the like... and getting shoved around, having to "turn off" your car and "turn it on" again.

And let's not even get into taking shortcuts. SS and SJ, you can run between buildings - in some instances, you have to to reach a contact or a glowie. With a car, you won't fit. You can hop over fences... with a car, you couldn't. You'd have to find the one specific opening in the fence, assuming the alley or whatnot is *wide* enough to let you do so, and go back around. And if there's something you needed to fight? (Think of a SS'er getting into the TV trial - up the side, around the catwalks, etc.) Turn off your "car" again.

You'd be forced to stop - or get shoved backward - far more often. Honestly, it's *really broken* as a 'travel power. '

Not sure how the drift/facing you mentioned would turn out... it's a question of feel there, to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Awesome - so is it wrong for me to infer that Issue 14 will go live on 4/7/09?



[/ QUOTE ]

1. It's at least seven days notice. Earliest time they will give the respec is the sixth, the seventh would be a tuesday. So... possibility, sure.

2. They don't *tend* (in my memory) to give respecs the day of release, but slightly afterward, so people can see what's changed and what they might want to adjust.

Take from that what you will. It's all guesswork for us anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you only see it one way, doesn't mean it can't exist another...

Once upon a time, there was this guy, and he said the Earth orbited the Sun. But because everyone believed the Sun orbited the Earth, they shunned him. But just because they believed in a way of things, doesn't mean another way doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've given my reasons for my objections. You have anything to add?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not. Wouldn't matter anyway, would it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see this thing I'm having with Jack in this very thread?

It's called a discussion. Contrasting and debating differing ideas and viewpoints. Yes, it is also known, technically, as an argument (see Monty Python's "Argument Sketch" for an appropriate definition.) Neither of us are saying "This is the way it is, you're wrong and an idiot!" I'm posting from prior discussions, pointing out various problems I see with the ideas, he's posting possible workarounds, and the idea's getting hammered out.

I don't think it'll really get farther than other vehicle discussions (and the issues I mentioned with the last two earth powers haven't been touched,) but neither of us, despite disagreement, are saying the other's points don't matter. Yes, even with my cut-paste answers. They're meant to shorten discussion, teach the poster what's been brought up about them before, and likely prevent *heated* arguments by giving a more advanced point in the discussion to talk about or alter ideas with.

Edit: In other words, if you *do* see a flaw or something supporting, yes, it matters. Post it. I'm under no delusion that I don't potentially have blinders on. In fact, I'm modifying the stock reply here as I'd intended to earlier, but didn't, for the "one way I see it actually working in limited instances."

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The ONLY way I see "vehicles" working is in a specialized, outdoor mission, with *all* player powers disabled and just some set attacks in it. Not a travel power, but an in-mission temp power, in a mission designed for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd accept that. I think that making it a Transform power, a-la Kheldians, would be by far the most sensible solution for a large vehicle like that. However, I'm not so sure I see why it can't work just the same in Safeguard/Mayhem missions and non-instanced maps (zones). Heck, even instanced city zones I'm sure must be flagged for a different tile or terrain type than, say, cave missions.

[/ QUOTE ]

My main objection with "anywhere" (touched on below, as well) is that there are places they just make no sense - and not even in a "well, it's a comic book" way. They'd just look *silly.*

Note I'm talking vehicles in general, but for every vehicle someone comes up with - there's an issue, and then the OP or someone starts adding "Well, then we can make X limitation," which just makes them... worse. Imagine, for example, if you couldn't use Superspeed over/in water. There's no surface for you to run on (and yeah, I know, theoretically you could "run so fast you run over the water," but we don't reach that speed by the in game numbers) ... so if you have to go north to Scylla in Talos, say, you have to swim at normal speed.

Now make it a car. Or motorcycle. There are *huge* tracts of land... er, areas of the game that they'd be sorely impractical. Yes, I can use Superspeed in the Shard and it has problems... but I can pick up a jet pack. Or remember to turn it off while using the geysers - and just flip it back on to zip to the next one. How does it make sense for a car/motorcycle to do this?

And, again... there's the issue of all (and I do mean all) the powers. As a full-on travel power, how do you deal with all the powers players use? Let it look... ok, I'll say it, downright stupid? Disable them all? (Forget PVP.)

Edit: As far as being tagged for terrain type? Have you looked in the MA? While they could, I suppose, add the tags - they'd be map-wide, from what we see in there. So if you, say, flag the Skyway City safeguard/mayhem for "no vehicle travel," it'd be that way throughout, not just indoors.

[ QUOTE ]

As far as Longbow fliers indoors -- they do only spawn outside (that I've seen, anyway). But they will do pretty goofy things to follow a target, the same as any other mob. I'm reasonably sure with a little bit of patience, you could, for instance, drag one into the Warburg tunnels from the Longbow ship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which, to a point, is still an "outdoor" area.

I'd actually like to see it - get people to clear the Arachnoids, and start taunting one into the Web proper and see if it goes through the doors or has the same sort of size restraint. (I don't mean the outside blast doors, those are wide enough. IIRC the inner doors are smaller and/or barred in the middle.) I suspect it would get stuck, and not be able to enter past a certain point... a restriction no other travel power has to worry about.
[ QUOTE ]

(Edit: By the way, I think the spawn 'rules' for Longbow fliers are that they only spawn in places they are specifically placed. If there were spawn rules that could be applied to them, it seems like it would be a matter of only a few days' work to apply those rules to Sky Skiffs.)


[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right about placement. I really, really wish they'd set the skiffs not to spawn indoors. They do look just flat out ridiculous inside those tiny side rooms in Terra Volta... and it's commented on *each and every time.*

[ QUOTE ]

And as others have mentioned, there are a variety of smaller vehicles that would require minimal amounts of work -- some of which we may see when the long-awaited 'back item' section expansion is done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember what they say about "only requires X amount of work."

More variety in backpacks and wings, so you can have some other sort of "jet pack?" Hey, fine... not really a *vehicle,* though. Same with skateboard types - the animation is somewhat in place with Prestige Power Slide. Not sure what altering the character to be on top of a skateboard would do - it would have to be taken into consideration for things like Thunder Strike, Stalagmites and Foot Stomp, though. Which, yeah, means reanimating.

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you only see it one way, doesn't mean it can't exist another...

Once upon a time, there was this guy, and he said the Earth orbited the Sun. But because everyone believed the Sun orbited the Earth, they shunned him. But just because they believed in a way of things, doesn't mean another way doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've given my reasons for my objections. You have anything to add?

Huh?

The accolades already tell you what they need, even without Herostats.

Unless you're talking about, say, having them change color when you already have them (say, you're going for the Atlas Medallion and have everything but Spelunker, it would be a different color.)

Not sure, given what we see in MA, that it's possible to dynamically change the color or whatnot. They may have a different system for them though.

[ QUOTE ]

Bill posted his standard reply earlier in the thread. But what's kind of funny is that even in it, he already addresses some of the vehicles that are already in the game. Why's it any more ridiculous for a player to have, say, a Longbow Flier and fly it around to wacky places that it doesn't make a lot of sense to go to than it is for a Longbow to do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's already answered.

Longbow doesn't have an Eagle or Nullifier hop into it - and last I checked, the Chasers weren't indoors. The Chaser is, itself, one large NPC, with a preset set of powers. It isn't, by the definition being used, a vehicle, any more than Terra or the Kronos Titan is.

The Sky Skiff is the only one you'll find indoors - and that's (a) silly looking and (b) usually stuck inside a room it can't get *out* of. (I'd add "C - probably a mistake," too, as it predates the Longbow Chaser. I'm assuming the Chaser has some set spawn rules that weren't developed when the Sky Skiffs were developed.)

Just think about where you see a Longbow Chaser - always flying outdoors. I have *yet* to see one indoors. They don't spawn in labs or bases. Even in instances, they're outdoors - patrolling outside a base or cargo ship.

Edit:

The ONLY way I see "vehicles" working is in a specialized, outdoor mission, with *all* player powers disabled and just some set attacks in it. Not a travel power, but an in-mission temp power, in a mission designed for it.

[ QUOTE ]
This is copied from a post I made in general power discussion:

How about an Ant-style travel pool (would go great with Earth controllers)

1) dirt-piles: you dig for a moment, causing some dirt piles to form around you, providing some ranged defense. for a short while if you stay in place. (think of these as quick sand-bags).

2) earth-toss: low damage, accuracy reducing ranged attack that attempts to throw dirt into the enemy's eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I can see those working. Then this:
[ QUOTE ]

3) Dig: You burrow into the ground, allowing you to travel very fast (say, just a bit faster than flight, not far behind SJ), and avoid needing to go around things like buildings. enemies can detect you if you stay still, but only aoe attacks could even touch you while underground. Getting hit though, forces you back to the surface.

[/ QUOTE ]

... eh... ok, now you've got a mostly-untargetable travel power, and what about your own attacks/buffs/etc?
[ QUOTE ]

4) crumble: While in Dig mode, you can open a hole under an enemy, causing them to fall partially into the earth. Foes sunk this way are held, and take some damage over time. you can also attack them while remaining underground. would make a good opening move against an AV.


[/ QUOTE ]

See 3. And what happens to the debuffs, etc. (since they, like you, are now untargetable by anyone up top) that others would have been putting on them? You've now made the rest of the team impotent.

Can't go for this as is, honestly.

[ QUOTE ]

or how about vehicle travel:

1) headlights: summon vehicle to this location. it does not move, but it's headlights are on. this causes you to be able to see invisible enemies within a huge cone in front of it. Furthermore, you and your team get a small +ToHit if the enemy is within this cone. The car can be attacked, and enemies within the cone are (very) slightly taunted to the attack the car.

[/ QUOTE ]

um... okay... So you summon your car in the Terra Volta reactor. Or deep inside a cave. Or, hey, while you have a jetpack and are flying to catch, say, a Longbow Eagle that's running away. Or better yet, going through the Shadow Shard... I see a few issues.

[ QUOTE ]

2) brake-fail: Your vehicle comes zooming across the screen, running over the targeted enemy with a screech. Damage is moderate, knockback is significant. has a looong recharge time. still useable indoors or wherever you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still usable indoors... see above. It'd just look silly.
[ QUOTE ]

3) Vehicle travel: Your vehicle appears, you get in, your team can choose to get in also. you travel at very high speeds, and have a jump/boost about the height of a regular CJ+Hurdle jump, but your speed when you jump slows tremendously (ie, you have it, but don't want to use it too much). can only range attack from the vehicle, and all damage taken while inside is applied to all people inside the vehicle.

4) insurance increase: You summon your vehicle, and set the self-destruct mechanism. it takes 10 seconds to arm, and the explosion is devastating. can only be used once every 24 hours, but doesn't actually make the car unusable for the other powers.

vehicle travel would be way cool. maybe as a power that needs to be invented.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get a cut-paste reply!

[ QUOTE ]

Vehicles as travel powers. This gets brought up a lot.

Short answer, don't expect it.

Long answer:
There are a lot of problems with the idea.

1. Movement.
Forward and back,even turning - ok. But you can do things that a vehicle can't - such as strafe (direct side to side or angular movement.) It doesn't work with a vehicle.

2. Terrain.
Not every place has roads, or even makes sense for "off roading." Go look at Founder's Falls. Go look at Crey's Folley. Or Eden. Try to get to the north islands in Talos. What, do you have a kubelwagen? Look at the Pit in Sharkshead. Try to use your travel power (car) to get up to some of the doorways in high caves. Cars and motorcycles would be more like Superspeed - horizontal movement, period. And look - I'll be blunt - flat out *stupid* tied with, say, Combat Jumping or Superjump.

3. Combat.
You get ambushed on the way. How do you fight? Just have your powers blast out of the rolled up windows? How do you buff or debuff? EVERY power would need a new animation. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Then you want people with motorcycles instead of cars. Redo ALL the animations AGAIN. And they still wouldn't make sense - how do you use Footstomp in a car? Or Stalagmites?

4. Customizing.
Yeah, it would come up. Not everyone would want a sports car, or a mid-70s Buick boat, or an exotic, or a minivan, or whatever else.

5. Making "sense."
This was touched on in terrain - how do you get across water? How about the Shadow Shard? And if you want downright ridiculous looking, go do the heroside 25-34 Respec. Look at the Sky Skiffs inside of rooms or the reactor room. It makes no sense and looks *ridiculous.* Something that, yes, the devs try to avoid.

That's just a quick overview of why vehicles are a *lousy* idea for a travel power.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um...

I disagree with removing the minimums. I don't care if you do want to bring your level 6 scrapper on, say, Numina. He has no slots, almost no attacks, no status protection, and would generally be worse than useless. Posi at 10-15? You have a chance. There's far more of a difference there than your #3 under disadvantages (really depends what that 45 is - and they can still do quite a bit, in many instances, to a 52.)

Auto-exemping makes sense, which is why it was implemented. By having a set lower end "cap" you end up not actually *finding* yourself in a bind if a higher level DCs. You don't have to run the TF on Invincible.

Besides, at the lower level TFs, where this might be more of an issue, by the time you're halfway done the lowbies have levelled a bit more and are pulling more of their own weight.

I don't particularly think it'd be all that helpful. *shrug*

[ QUOTE ]

a. Basically, the Rikti's invasions have stirred the people of Atlantis into action and they feel that the Heroes/Villains are to blame and there for have declared war on Paragon City/Rogue Isles.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've got to agree with the "Drop Atlantis." As well as the "We've been sitting on Coralax lore."

We know we have a sleeping, absolutely ancient (as in predating the dinosaurs) extraterrestrial "deity" in Merulina, who created (or evolved) the Coralax, led by the Shapers, and... drawing a blank now... their slave race. It was hinted at, though without those names, back in the Striga arcs when a vessel "brought something up." We have them altering humans - including Barracuda - and Mako interested in their goodies.

No need to invoke Atlantis at all. Not a sunken, lost city, but the creation of a deity that started, and still is, under the waters.