Memphis_Bill

Are you sure about that?

Frankly, I'd see it as being a bit more of an undertaking than "regular" power customization (and part of why we haven't seen epics added, either.) Setting up customization for powers that might not be there from one time to the next, between respecs and multiple builds? It's one thing with a primary and secondary. Even if someone doesn't take a power, you know it'll be available. A bunch of pools that might not be, and won't be there when you first create a character (or at 20, 30 or 40?)

Yeah, I'd say it's more "there's quite a lot to it that will take time to do halfway decently" instead of "low priority."

I notice you have no answer to that... wait, just a sec:

That would be - ready for it? - the same changes you call "good." The ones that make powers behave completely differently in PVP than they do in PVE. The ones that *increase* the learning curve. The ones that drove out the people who loved PVP in this game two and a quarter years ago, and did NOTHING to bring in replacements.

But, hey, you go ahead and dismiss that, keep your head up... er, in the sand and say the changes were good and that the PVPers were complaining just because it's a change, and that the UTTER LACK of developer attention to PVP since then doesn't matter. Do that and keep proving you have no clue.

I'll say it again - IF the changes were actually good for PVP, IF the changes actually did what the developers claimed they would do, it wouldn't matter that the old guard had left, because there would have been replacements. We'd have an active, vibrant PVP community NOW, with new people who never knew pre-I13 PVP, keeping the arenas active and keeping things jumping in the zones.

We do not.

That would be... the data given during beta? The data given just after release? The data that was given, with promises that "Hey, we'll keep tuning it and fixing it," and then gets promptly ignored, with *nothing* fixed in PVP?

You need to learn the history of what's happened, instead of just dismissing it like you seem to love doing.

Know what I would love?
I'd love having to actually consider the character I take into the zones if I want to run a patrol, much less snag a shivan or nuke. I'd love to look at my character again and say "Hey, I'm going to need to grab someone from my SG to help watch my back" because there's an actual, real possibility of a threat (other than the NPCs) in the zone. I'd love to earn the five hour badge in the zones without noticing, in one or two stretches, because the zones are so active and there are so many good fights going on. I'd love to be able to tell someone to watch the ripples in the water to keep an eye on that stealthed character they're worried about. Can't do that, because (a) there's nobody to worry about, and (b) there's nobody to TELL.

I'd be doing all that currently if the PVP changes were actually good. Why? Because people would be PVPing.

It's not hard.

How to install a mainboard:

Put board in case. Line up holes. Note which ones you need.
Remove mainboard.
Screw in standoffs (support for the mainboard.)
Press in shield (back of case, with cutouts for the ports.)
Screw in mainboard.

Installing a CPU:

CPU is shaped like, oh...


|------------|
]-----------[
|------------|
|------------|

Set it in so it lays flat. It has those notches in it for a reason - if you have it turned the wrong way 'round, it won't lay flat. (AMD CPUs are much the same - they have specific "pins" missing. If it's not laying flat and a little nudging back and forth doesn't make it lay down, it's not aligned the right way.)

There's also (typically) a triangle in the corner. Match it to the triangle on the socket or board.

Much like everything else - if it doesn't fit, it's either turned around or it doesn't go there in the first place. It's actually really, really hard to "put something in wrong." No soldering required, don't need to know electronics.

Honestly, browse through youtube (or tigerdirect/compusa's kits) for videos on how to put a PC together. It looks easy because it is.

My guess is that they didn't know if the turnstyle system would work, much less that the incarnate powers would be kept as is. If it didn't work, they'd have to redo the trial(s) potentially.

By putting in a signed NDA, they (in theory) would have a tighter lid on information and could make massive changes without the player-created stink about "They PROOOMMMIISSSEEEEDD this in this issue and TOOK IT AWAAAAYYYYY!"

His sig-quoted section is in yellow.

(This, by the way, is also part of what turned me - who has been called a "fanboi" more than once - into such a cynic when it comes to dev changes and promises of "ongoing" systems. They said Devs Choices in AE would be ongoing, which is why we only got 5 slots... no new ones in over a year. Base changes? Nada. Even Invention sets are very few and far between - the devs put in big systems or make big adjustments, then leave them to rot. And now they're promising "ongoing" incarnate trials and systems, expanding the trees! Riiiiiiiiiight..... )

If it were a gradual drain - "Hmm, the zones seem a little emptier now" - it'd be the "shinier and newer."

However, it was "I13 hit, Lighthouse basically told the PVPers to go stuff themselves, mass exodus." Rule changes AND being told off killed off the community.

And measures were put into place against things like that. Orange inspirations protected against TP Foe, which also has (not just had) a Tohit check. Powers also provided protection. And, of course, there's the simple expedient of "Teaming," as was advised time and time again.

PVP was not, and should not be, balanced 1v1. COH does not have a limited number of classes to balance around. In Aion, for instance, you could point at a random (say) Ranger or Chanter and pretty well guess what powers they had and the best their sets could be. COH? If I point at a Defender, what are they? Do I have to worry about them buffing the team or debuffing the heck out of me? How about that Brute? Is it Defense or Resistance based, and what's their offensive set like?

Yes, you could get some good 1v1 fights going - and I did. Doesn't mean I won them all, or even most of them. But PVP was based around the idea of teaming - using teammates to cover whatever offensive/defensive holes you had (and taking advantage of those of the enemy.)

And if you were being "TP Foe'd into drones," you were too close to the enemy base, not "barely into the zone." Yes, I hear these apocryphal tales of being "Chain TP Foe'd across the zone into a drone." That would be a tohit check each and every time, no inspirations taken to counter it, perfect timing by each and every person in the chain so you couldn't escape, and a LOT of luck. ESPECIALLY when assisted targeting (target through ally) was removed in PVP. Why were people typically TP Foe'd into drones? Because the other side's base was being *camped.* Back off and the fights get much more fun.

Nothing was "Impossible to escape." I'd been TP Foe'd into "guaranteed" ASes and the like before and escaped by the simple expedient of - ready for this super-sekret uber escape strategy? - holding down the space bar and picking a movement direction so I was moving away already when the TP hit.

Then you haven't paid attention to what was happening THEN, or post-I13, to be blunt. Were there problems? Sure. And from I6-I13, they were addressed gradually, from zone geometry holes and exploits (note the "doors" in the guard towers) to counters to strategies (like Energy Aura and other sets as well as orange inspirations giving TP Foe protection) to requested protection (added drones.)

But you want to say it's better. How's a reduced hold duration better? How is gutting buffs better? How is getting RID of mez protection better? (Yes, you can now hold that tank - whose mez resistance kicks in before you can stack it. You're now slowed thanks to suppression and he can kill you.) How is kicking in movement, regeneration and recovery suppression *on taking an inspiration* better?

How is making every power work differently when you step into a PVP situation "better?"

Before, if you *wanted* to, you could take a second build and build for PVP. (I didn't, yet I still won my share of fights and fought to my share of draws. Even on SOs.) You knew how your powers worked. You had to learn how to best utilize them against others, how to deal with your "weak" powerset counters, and how to fight against a thinking enemy.

Now, suppose I picked some zones and changed how your powers worked. In Founders Falls, defense values are 1/3 of what they were, damage caps are set to 150%, and control has a higher TOHIT to overcome. In King's Row, defense is changed to resistance, range is cut in half, and travel powers work at half speed. Think people would get annoyed and complain? Think others would leave?

Think they'd be justified in doing so?

Side example - my Energy/Energy brute used to be one of my favourite PVP characters. Now, I don't bother. Not because of the Energy Transfer change - that didn't bother me at all.

See, I had two things going for me. One, TP Foe resistance - I'd hunt down those doing the TP Foe nonsense to teammates, because I could counter that.

The other? I had others warn about my character in broadcast because of one thing - every attack that could take it was slotted 2acc-3dam-1 stun. I worked those in to keep you in place. Energy transfer now taking a long time (comparitively) to animate? So what? You were still there and not going anywhere. Now... no point.

For people to earn PVP IOs, there have to be people who want to PVP. Post-I13, due to those changes, there are far, far fewer people who want to PVP. Far fewer people - some of whom were parts of multi-game PVP groups (I believe Lion's Den was one of these, for instance, and they vanished along with many others from COH) - who had worked with prior changes and would teach others, who could help a newbie out and help them learn the ropes.

It's not the PVP IOs creating the barrier to entry. If I manage to IO out a build and I hand it to someone new, those IOs aren't going to make much difference at all. It's the *massive* change in how powers work, thanks to I13. Yes, including control.

The SSK +5 level power "bonus" doesn't help in zones, either (that is, not in a positive way.) For instance, Bloody Bay used to be 15-25. It still is - and that's a bad set of ranges, IMHO, as it takes you from 2-3 TO'd out slots in nine powers to several fully (or nearly fully) SO'd out powers. That's a heck of a range. But builds were exceptionally tight to fight there. Now, it's practically 15-30. Nearly a full primary (and I'd say inherent stamina only makes THIS situation worse.) Siren's Call? You didn't have to worry abou Tier 9s before, or Controller/Dom pets (and if you don't think THOSE make a difference, you're sadly mistaken,) Blaster nukes (though, of course, damage is screwy now) and the like. Now, since you're fighting "essentially" 20-35 (DOs to near-full primary and secondaries,) it's another huge gap in power on top of powers acting differently (and, of course, Tier 9s to deal with - something that before you only had to worry about if someone was exploiting a former bug where they could run out, trigger it and run back in.)



No, you weren't. Not unless you didn't bother learning how to deal with thinking opponents. My Earth/FF - hardly a "hardcore" PVP set - annoyed the hell out of people thanks to Quicksand, Earthquake, -def and the like - and her buffs were useful, as well. Kill quickly on her own? Nope. But again, *teaming* was what PVP was geared toward.

Illusion was liked for PA and invisibility - full, attack-without-dropping invisibility. Doms were valued for mez *and* a damaging secondary.

"Less resisted control?" Gravity does smashing - it also has lift and slows. Earth did -def. Plant had problems because of the ridiculous (even in PVE) "Cannot use power, target in air" - go ahead, take a plant into BB, even now, and watch some of your powers fizzle against firebase turrets that are "in the air." Mind was ridiculously strong, yes, but it is in PVE as well.

You'll excuse me if I laugh at this.

EVERY AT was useful in PVP, unless you're SOOOOOO focused on winning 1v1 the majority of the time - and even then, it fell to some *powerset combos* being weaker or stronger. Hell, I fought (and won) using *warshades,* arguably the WEAKEST AT for PVP. Now, Warshades really *are* useless. Slows? Pfft. Damage? The mobs aren't subject to the same rules as players, so it's nearly suicidal to try to buff from them. And of course, *teleport* - suppression means (a) you cannot get away via teleport, since it's completely killed, and (b) Starless Step (TP Foe) provides your target with invincibility when they arrive for a time, so you're just picking who you want to have your face beaten in by. (The teleport bit affects Peacebringers in dwarf, as well.)


The game *completely changed.* The devs wanted feedback in beta. They were given it, WITH GOOD REASONS as to why the changes were NOT good (not "It's just change, I don't like it.") The response? "Tough, they're going through."

Gee, being told "The part of the game you enjoy is being changed completely, don't like it, too bad" - hmm, I wonder why people would complain and leave. Or rather, why they DID, leaving an already-small PVP community devastated and the zones completely empty.

Which others? Where are allllll these new PVPers, who don't know what the old system was like, who have never been on the forums, filling the zone and making the arena active?

If your dismissive attitude were right, then now, nearly SEVEN ISSUES later (and since issues aren't evenly spaced, let me give you the release date - Tuesday, December 2, 2008 - over two years ago) there should be new PVPers who have never known what PVP was like before Issue 13, "born and raised" in the new system. There would be a population drop and steady rise, not just as we get new (replacement) players and some old hands come back to see what shook out, but as the people those changes were created FOR (those "ATs that were left out," as you want to paint it,) start taking their places in the zones.

So, where are they?

You can't blame the forums. Less than 10% of the game's population comes here, per Paragon Studios, and not all (or even most) of those post. People should be discovering and learning the new system on their own without ever SEEING what you dismissively put out as "all this wah! from the old PVPers." It happened in issue 6 when it was introduced. It happened throughout all the changes from I6-I12. The population grew, I13 hit, and then.....

Hmm.

*goes into siren's, hears crickets.*
*goes to BB, watches for a while, someone goes for a shivan and leaves when attacked.*
*goes into warburg, listens to his "Hello?" echo through the empty zone.*
*goes to RV, nothing.*
*looks at the empty arena*

On the PVE side, TWO similar game-changing items hit one right after the other. Enhancement Diversification and the Global Defense Nerf. No IOs to make up for it for years. Yet the population stayed - even grew - for the most part. Those are "Good" changes. Ones that people complain about the big change, yes, but work through.

If the same hasn't happened in over two years on the PVP side, I'd say your argument that they were "good" changes has more than a few holes in it. If they were "good" changes, they should have drawn new PVPers. They should have drawn in their targeted audience, who would have kept the PVP scene lively.

So where are they?

Where's my nice, active Siren's Call zone that I used to have?

Where are my fights at the meteors or in the city in Siren's?

Where are the beachfront brawls in Warburg?

I'll tell you where they are - *GONE.* And they have been since issue 13.

Say I run a restaraunt. I make greek food (just to pick something.) I don't have a huge clientele, but hey, I get 5000 people a day in. One day, I mention I'm going to radically overhaul my menu. Now, I've made minor changes before, and my 5000 people have dealt with it. Some they've liked, others they haven't. However, I'm going from Greek to... oh... Jamaican/Tex-mex. (What a combo! It'll draw in new people!) My customers, of course, complain - they come here for greek food, if I want to add some stuff fine but they like greek! I tell them to shove off, the changes "aren't for them, but for the people who have tried greek once and not come back." I make that change. I retain 10 customers... and lose the other 4990 that used to come there. But hey, I gained 5 new ones!

What happens to my business? Even if those 5 like it - I have a total of 15 people, 7 of which like it, 8 of which still show up for some reason, even if they grumble. Was it a good change or bad?

That's what happened to PVP.

Thanks, but I just ate. Will it keep in the fridge?

/signed.

Yes, IOs can do some incredible things... but people were STILL soloing GMs and the like before they came around. An IO build doesn't make you a better player, any more than handing someone a Ferrari will make them a better driver.

Some people are going to IO out a build to see just what they can do, or because it's their "only" or "main" character. And people are going to complain about prices because - well, yes, they ARE high, but they're not aware of or not patient enough for the alternative ways of getting them (either through gameplay or one of the many forms of merits.) Or they've bought into the "must have Nao!" mindset.)

Thus the learning "brick wall."

I said at the time that yes, I agreed with the intent, and could even see the purpose behind some of it - suppression, etc.

But then again, I'm on the forums and know where to look to get the info.

The changes shouldn't have all been done in one issue. I think they overreached - end result aside... well, perhaps not aside, as the end result (the smaller community and massive powers changes) is *from* that overreach.

Put in suppression. Wait, tweak, see if it helps the "everyone's jumping around" and makes it more accessible. Put in the resistances/damage changes. See if that helps. If so, stop. Holds too binary? Put in a mix of resistance and immunity instead or something. See if it helps.

It's like... well, putting house rules in monopoly to stop a specific problem with your group. You put in one or two. You don't suddenly yank the board away halfway through and whip out a half-finished Trivial Pursuit game and say "This is how we play now!" It annoys the people REALLY into the monopoly game, and those that want to play once in a while - who could make for an even bigger monopoly gaming group - back away, not knowing when the game is going to change again.

PVP already GOT attention because "not enough" people were interested in and participating in it. The i13 changes were brought about because of low interest and what appeared to be barriers to entry.

What did we get?

FEWER people playing it, and even HIGHER barriers to entry. Which, itself - by having fewer people playing - which "doesn't provide any incentive to increase resources spent on fixing PVP," to use your own phrasing.

Before, for instance, I knew if I had mez protection, that NPC mezzer couldn't mez me (surprise, surprise) and control ATs would have to work on it or do something to drop my toggles.

Now? Surprise, the powers work vastly differently in PVP. There is no mez protection. Resistance, yes. Among many, many other changes.

You don't want to hear people saying how bad it is now and how good it was before? Open up your ears and pay attention as to WHY they're saying what they're saying instead of dismissing it as "wah, it's not like it was." PVPers adapt to changes - when they're done reasonably.

They were not. And it cost the game the majority of the PVP community, and left VERY bad feelings among those who remain - with good reason.

And that's wrong as well. Or at best talking about two different things.

It's not a matter of what I think of myself. That has nothing to do with you having to earn (instead of expecting automatically to have) my respect.

Everyone starts off, for me at least, with a level of "polite," I suppose. I'm not going to trash talk them to start with, or ignore them, or say "Why should I listen to you?" for every suggestion. Someone's leading, ok, I'll listen. Yes, it is one form of "respect" - overall respect for others.

However, the way he's talking about it? Nope. If there's someone I'll listen to and give *great* weight to what they say even before reading it, that's the sort of respect that must be earned (and that it sounds like the OP wanted.) Few people have that - my friends, of course. On the boards? Arcanaville, FatherXmas, Dark_Respite on videoishness and creating a story - those come to mind as people who, by standing out and doing what they do very well while treating others *with* respect, have earned MY respect. Do I think they care that they have? No. It's not a public rating, something to go around advertising. Some schmuck who just threw a team together doesn't have that, and shouldn't expect to.

"Rare?" Probably more like 50/50. Given the art team work on things like the ships and whatnot, not to mention the last booster, I'd be surprised to see any.

And I'd expect to have seen them on test by now.

Tenzhi and I may disagree on... well, quite a few things, usually, but this I agree with 100%.

Yes, you created the group. Congrats. You can use the team search and send tells. That does not make you a good leader, or worth listening to.

Hell, I'd probably have sat back and waited, just from that sort of attitude. "Why aren't you doing anything?" "You told us to use our best attacks. I'm level 22. I don't have my best attacks yet."

And I, similarly, would have the power and freedom to throw you on ignore, one-star you and not only avoid teaming with you in the future but tell others to do the same thing until the attitude changed.

Your belief is wrong. Respect is something that is earned and maintained. It's far, far easier to lose than to build up. And once you lose it, its much harder to win it back.

It is from where I sit. I'm not kidding when I say I've seen perhaps five people and gotten one fight out of the last year. (Well, one running fight back and forth. Not "A" fight.) I "live" on multiple servers, as well, so it's not just "try another server."

However, you're right that the overall doom and gloom isn't that helpful for the OP. So, suggestions:

- Find like minded people, either in the PVP section or server section, or just get some friends together.

- Go nuts in the zones. Try them all. Get ready for a learning curve as you run into everything that's different, but try to have fun.