Memphis_Bill
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Quote:Note, after a while the devs said the unlock at 50 for Kheldians was a mistake. The only reason (and I argued against this, saying this was not a good justification at all) for the VEATs being unlocked at 50 was "parity."Originally Posted by Kristoph
2) It used to be that in order to qualify to access EAT, you had to reach 50, but lvl 50 content would definitely be a requirement for this level of work to be committed. Since we are at best only available to 20-25, we have a LONG way to go for that.
Eventually they got knocked down to 20.
Any future EATs, I'd hope, would either be unlocked at 20 as well, or be unlocked through a story arc, contact or task/strike force. They're tied to a specific part of the lore - so use exploration of the lore (which is what they are, really - a microscope taken to a part of it as opposed to the wide view of 1-50) to unlock them. -
Quote:OK, full stop.Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Propel is a strong case for Cottage Rule not being totally infallible, and that's all I was arguing. A rule that is automatically absolute denies the possibility of it ever being wrong, and that is nothing short of foolish.
It does not say it is infalible. Nor do the devs, and I don't, either. It does not state that no power that comes up will ever have to be changed that dramatically.
It IS, however, a point where the devs stand and have to exhaust other possibilities or have a *very* convincing case (and be able to answer "Why did it get to live this way if it's so bad?") for such a major change... when most of the powers that HAVE been fixed in the last seven plus years have done so without violation.
Among other things, it's a promise of powerset stability and gameplay experience stability. Yes, they *can* tweak things - animation time, damage or other values - and they've done so consistently throughout the game's history. And at times they've made some fairly big changes (IH from a toggle to a click, and - what, three different versions of MoG, just to pick on /regen?) But the *basic purpose* of those powers was still there.
To take it out of the game for a bit -
It's like having a house and making changes to it. You don't tear it down because you want a different color - you apply different paint. You tear down or add walls, sometimes even another room or story. You rewire. You add network cabling. But the foundation of that house stays the same.
You don't tear it down to dirt unless there's something so fundamentally wrong with the house there's no other way to fix it. Some of the repairs might be extensive, yes - but the foundation's still there.
As far as propel -
One of the things some people complain about with on controllers is damage. Not everyone's a farming fire/kin, and I don't think anyone would call my ice/emp or earth/ff a powerleveling monster. Propel has a niche - fairly decent single target damage. Would you rather use IT (and lift!) on a +level boss, or just keep cycling hold-immob and whittling away?
Adjusting Propel's time would make it (obviously) cycle much faster, and definitely increase its usefulness. You'd be using it more often, on more targets. Given the base amount of Control Gravity has (not to mention a pet that also has a fair number of controls itself to help stack,) I just don't see a justification for a major change to what Propel does. Timing, yes. Fundamental change, no. -
Quote:ok, hold on.... Let's look at those other six powers:Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
You're practically repeating the problem that I highlighted in Force Fields back to me... it has one good power outside of it's shields, the other six powers in the set range from extremely situational to utterly useless. It's most direct competitor set, being Cold Domination (and the reason I used that one as my example) doesn't have any powers that you could justify calling useless... or even particularly situational, for that matter.
Force bolt - Minor damage, knockback. Great for positioning as well as keeping away from the defender (and I have to say VERY useful on a Bots/FF, or any other ranged/FF MM.)
Personal FF - You can't affect your teammates (admittedly... but you have already shielded them, right?) but you end up in a very high defense state, able to heal yourself or whatever you may need doing. Situational? Sure. Useful? Yep.
Detention Field - Sure, it makes a single enemy unable to be attacked. But it's fairly obvious. And if it's one being very troublesome, or buffing others (use it on a sorc/death shaman/avalanche shaman/agony mage) using it can make the rest of the fight much easier. Drop the duration a bit or make it a toggle, perhaps, and I think you'd find more people using it. Especially as a toggle.
Repulsion field - Essentially a keep-away power. Smaller radius than Force Bubble, and pulses - though it actually *can* work reasonably well with FB, as it does KB and FB does repel. (Though I'll be honest - at its radius, it's the one power I tend to skip.)
Repulsion Bomb - AOE ranged knockdown, damage, and disorient. You find this useless... how again? Or even situational? Being knockDOWN, unless your'e fighting (say) Primal Clockwork which are weak to KB, you're not even scattering stuff. Tank in trouble? Use it. Troublesome group coming up? Use it, drop into PFF to avoid the alpha.
Force Bubble - Wide radius, but mein gott... area denial, mob repositioning, repel to affect KB-resistant mobs?
You have quite a toolkit in there. The adjustments I could see making could all be done (such as Detention Field becoming a toggle) again without violating the area rule. I've seen other suggestions to tack on a secondary effect (like a -def to the enemies - which my teammates would hate, as I'd fire off Repulsion Bomb and yell "-Def from above!") but again - no cottage rule violation there.
You're looking at tweaks and adjustments. -
Quote:I'm not going to get into propel, as until the time on that gets fixed, it is high on my personal "This really is broken" list.Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
You are technically correct when you say that Lift and Propel are soft controls, but can you sincerely argue that they're on par with what the other control sets have at their disposal for soft control? They're both single target, and as you said yourself, Propel also takes forever and a day to use, where as other sets have area knockdowns or sleeps or confuses to mitigate an entire crowd's output. It's just not as competitive as most of the other Control sets. And yes, Illusion is something of an anomaly in that it's pets do a lot of the work that other sets have soft CC for... but they do it pretty well, which is why it's considered strong.
Lift, yes, I would put on par with others - a control, even a soft control, *doesn't* have to be AOE to be good. You're taking someone out of the fight for several seconds (assuming they're not immobilized, but you're getting extra damage there - and I'm not holding that against Gravity, as it's true in other power sets, such as Ice (Ice Slick/Cages,) Earth (Earthquake/Cages) and Fire (Bonfire/Cages)) and by the time they're able to get back on their feet - they're getting lifted again.
Like I said, I like Gravity - I've got several, both Controllers and Doms, including a Grav/Kin at 50 - and won't argue it needs some help. But what I see it needing is, again, timing and animation work, nothing that would fundamentally alter the basic premise of any of its powers (yes, even dimension shift) and thus go against the cottage rule.
(Actually, if PVE got PVP's "Fight phased enemies while phased" abilitiy, you'd probably see any complaints about DS cut in half overnight. It really *can* be very useful. Needs a mag increase on the immob to keep bosses from running, though.) -
Quote:Sorry, but I just don't agree with this in the least - especially in an *incarnate* trial where players are getting more and more powerful.Originally Posted by je_saist
I really don't want to get involved in this thread, but I feel I have a point to make here.
If the developers set the precedent that the Players themselves can dictate how many or how few players are needed for any particular task or event, the player base will immediately respond by demanding that every other particular task or event with a specific-number-of-players-required-limitation have that specific-number-of-players-required-limitation removed.
Whether or not you, or Leandro likes it, the developers have to stick to their guns when it comes to minimum players in a task or event.
If that means shutting down a in-progress trial that has dropped to 11 players from 12? Well, sorry, them's the breaks.
The ONLY time we should see this sort of thing is if there's a requirement for multiple people - such as the Hollows trial, where you must have 8 people clicking glowies nearly simultaneously. And then, at least for trials, there should be a warning with the league leader able to invite more - AND a timeout, so that people can - if they got disconnected - have reasonable time to get back INTO the trial.
Pop up warnings. Down to 1 team? 4 people? Give the league leader a warning - "Trial is below starting minimum. This may be exceedingly difficult. Are you sure you wish to continue?"
But just failing a trial? No. -
Quote:Er, having played grav to 50, and having several in there, yes, it DOES have a pretty fair of hard and soft control. Not sure how you're not seeing:Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Look at how unpopular Gravity is because it has Dimension Shift and two mediocre-at-best attacks. It just doesn't offer what a Control set needs - some actual different types of soft and hard control.
Hard control: ST and AOE Immob, ST and AOE Hold
Assisted hard control: Singularity
Soft control: Lift, Wormhole (TP/Stun,) Propel (knockback, though its primary purpose is damage)
"Special" - Dimension Shift
Gravity's problems do not need to be addressed by breaking the cottage rule. Gravity's problems can be fixed in *large* part by adjusting animation times. I like gravity,and *I* gripe about the animation times (IE, "Use propel, watch the target die of old age," or "Watch things start to move before wormhole finishes animating.") NONE of that would fall afoul of the cottage rule.
What WOULD is, say, turning Propel (ranged damage power) into, oh, Telekenesis.
Dimension shift? The biggest complaint over IT is that people can't tell what's affected very easily (with some complaint over duration.) I've saved teams backsides with Dimension Shift, TYVM. That's something to be handled in animation and art, with perhaps a tweak to the intangible duration and/or immob mag. Again, not falling afoul of said cottage rule.
Gravity has more direct, reliable control than the "darling" (annoying) Illusion that I sure don't hear many complaints about: ST hold, ST confuse, PBAOE hold, placed fear (which gets run out of or lets them attack when they're damaged,) two sets of pets to scatter things, one ranged damage, and, ooh, two invisibilities. And don't forget to build to try to perma PA, and be sure to watch some of that illusory damage heal back.... -
Quote:Did you pay attention to the bit about PPPs and what happened the LAST time they broke said rule?Originally Posted by JayboH
You are mistaken about my knowledge of the cottage rule. End it. Please god end it. The crying will stop over a change, given time. The cottage rule forces crappy powers to stay the way the are so that those 2 or 3 people that actually enjoy them can keep the rest of us suffering.
No?
Or did you just ignore it to make this still-obviously-blind-to-the-purpose post? Since you still show absolutely zero understanding. As well as zero empathy for your fellow players.
WILL the devs break said rule? Probably, at some point. IF they see a power that needs fixing SO badly that a simple tweak to numbers or secondary effects won't cut it. Note, that is NOT knockback/down. That is NOT self-shielding. That would be, oh, having a Blaster with an aura designed to draw aggro while debuffing the blaster's resistance, to go to an extreme (and obviously not in the game) example.
Learn what it is and how it applies, if at all, to what you want - which it probably doesn't. And get a clue or three. YOU may not like a power. You have every right to skip it or take another powerset. Descriptions of the powers exist as you create the character. -
Quote:Fixed for you. You obviously have zero undersatnding and zero clue, so you have to revert RIGHT at the start to two personal attacks.Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Every time I post I make an *** out of myself.
/em golfclap
Then again, I think your signature sums up quite a bit about you:
"Whining about everything since 2006."
Right. They NEEEVER fix powers because of their egos. They wouldn't add a heal to electric armor, for instance, or energy aura. Or adjust hide so it costs no END, or asssassination so it doesn't bring you out of hide if you miss. Or adjust damage or other factors. nope. Every single power in the game is 100% exactly the way it is the second it was introduced. They've never tried to fix MM pet AI, it's exactly the same as it was the second it showed up on live. Masterminds never had their pet buffs adjusted to upgrade their entire team, they still have to sit at the entrance and buff for a good 30 seconds or so....Quote:The truth is that the rule proves that the devs have a big ego and aren't willing to admit they made some mistakes and fix them.
Wait, none of that is true?
Imagine that. Maybe you're wrong... wait, no maybe there. You *are* wrong.
Perhaps, before you go crying (to use your own description of your actions) about the devs egos, you should look to your own - and try getting a few facts straight before posting again. -
Quote:Can't really say until we see how that momentum mechanic works.Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Im also curious about this. Build up, assassin strike, fight, fight, fight, placate, assassin strike, fight, fight. Dont see anything that would interfere with titan weapons.
As for hit and run... yeah. Other than a rare PVP instance (basically being a spoiler/distraction,) I stick around and fight. Burst - scrap-scrap-placate-burst. -
I *want* to say it was Tunnel Rat who said they might - longer term - look into enabling a way to disable or change powers client-side, specifically because of things like Barrier and the old Sonic shields having a physical effect on the players as well as the "These are ugly" complaints.
Edit: Here we are.
Quote:Originally Posted by tunnel ratThanks for the feedback. I’ll take a look at Barrier and a couple of the other powers with multiple complaints. In the future, I’ll try to avoid powers with an intense pulse, and spread the word to the other FX artists. This is about the best I can do with the limited time and notice that I have. Unfortunately, it’s impossible for me to fix every effect that causes someone discomfort, but I hope to fix some of the outliers that have triggered the most complaints.
A few of you have proposed a system that allows players to suppress certain effects or turn off buffs placed on them by other players. This is a possible long-term solution, but one that requires a significant amount of coding time. Since our programmers are swamped right now, this system is likely a long way off, if it is greenlit at all. -
Yeah, there have been some concerns/wondering about just what we're going to end up seeing. Of course, you could always just look at the first mission in Mender Ramiel's arc....
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Less than a week to go....
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They already give you the percentage needed to finish the slot, and you should be able to see "Oh, buying it in this one gives me 3.3%, this one gives me 2%." It's already simple math. Plus, neither threads (nor, at this point, the INF required for them) are all that difficult to get.
Plus, it doesn't let you spend *past* that anyway. At most, you've "wasted" (and I use that term loosely, as burning the thread for this gets you your goal) 1 thread and up to 1 mill INF. If you could "spend" past it (you need 2%, you find you've burned 6 threads,) then maybe - but I wouldn't expect *that* to get out of beta. -
The LGTF (and instanced shadow shard) maps need to be fixed. I'm really tired of things vanishing on them - seems to throw off pet and npc AI, too.
As for the portal? Yes, the IP one is odd like that. So's the one in Pocket D, for me - it doesn't show up unless (and sometimes even if) I'm right on it.
However, this should *probably* be in a different section, and/or PM'd to a redname. -
Quote:I doubt it. They have other epics they could have had in the works, mentioned quite some time ago, and none of them have come to life. Some have been outright cancelled. This dev team has a ... *disinclination* when it comes to EATs. In any case... EATs... You can see details in one of my guides (EAT at War Witch's - which I think I need to update the Incarnate section on.)Originally Posted by TheScotty
Are the Devs ever going to make Praetorian Epic archtypes and if so what do u think they would be?
Avilians - Cancelled
Nictus - Cancelled, replaced with VEATs.
Incarnates - turned into the endgame system.
Blood of the Black Stream - in limbo, unlikely to be worked on
Coralax - in limbo, unlikely to be worked on
If anything, I'd say Incarnates are the "Praetorian (or at least GR) EAT." Epic ATs are "EATs" because they're tied to a story, after all, and the Incarnates are most certainly tied to the Praetorian invasion and storyline. -
*points up* Technical issues and bugs.
Post what's goign on there. There's a link to some tools to use (such as Hijackthis and/or COHHelper) which will provide some system information so the people there can spot any problems.
I'd start with the basics, too:
- When did this start happening?
- Is it all the time or just after a while? (IE, first character's fine, after that, no.)
- When's the last time you've done a virus scan/malware scan/cleared temp files/defragged the drive (note, Vista and Win7 do the last automatically... assuming the system is on when it's scheduled.) -
This is supposed to be the "end game." It's SUPPOSED to take time - or a fair bit of INF. Speeding up iXP gain goes directly against that.
The characters are 50. It's not like you're going to outlevel the trials or anything. -
Quote:Possibly. However, Taunt still Taunts just as it did before (ok, it does -range now, too.) Breaking the cottage rule would mean Taunt, oh, makes them all start breakdancing instead.Originally Posted by BrandX
Im sure there was someone out there who prefered to have their Taunt earlier.
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Quote:Saying that shows you have no clue as to what it is and what its purpose is.Originally Posted by JayboH
I agree, end it.
The "Cottage rule" was taken from a post Castle made on the Blaster boards where he gave an example of changing Build Up from a power that increased damage and accuracy to one that built a small cottage.
It says, in essence, that whatever changes are made to a power, the basic purpose of that power will remain the same. It has very rarely been "violated" (and the only example I can think of *right* offhand being early in the game, where Fold Space was removed from Gravity, Wormhole moved up and Singularity introduced.)
They learned precisely what player reaction would be when they violated it again in - I forget the issue, but in one issue's beta. You'll note we have *five* powers in our PPPs/APPs now. Know why? To avoid being lynched after they *flat out replaced* what they called the "least popular" powers in the PPPs with "something more useful" - for instance, in one personal example, they replaced the AOE blast in Mace Mastery for Dominators with Personal Force Field - replacing a power I certainly used with one that was 100% useless for me.
Not only did this remove powers people were using, but rendered (sometimes expensive) IOs completely useless and require a respec.
Needless to say, after player reaction and a small mob with pitchforks and torches showing up at the offices, they decided to put in a fifth power instead of replacing them. They went from violating the cottage rule to *not.*
Examples of other things people suggest that, yes, would be violations of the cottage rule:
- Replacing Black Hole/Dimension shift
- Replacing cage powers
Examples of things that did not/do not violate it, but which people misunderstand as doing so:
- Electric Armor - replacing Conserve Power with Energize. The power STILL provides an END discount, but it has a heal attached to it now.
- Energy Aura - adding a heal component to its AOE end drain.
- Adding a fear to Burn.
- Removing the fear from Burn.
- Null the Gull. He does NOT change the powers he affects - he just changes the buff on YOU (similar, essentially, to how a Stone tank/brute running Rooted would counter someone using Group Fly. Just because YOU aren't affected doesn't change the power.)
- Removing/replacing knockback in powers that do it. Wouldn't violate it (unless the power is meant to do knockback and JUST or Primarily do knockback.) it's just generally a bad idea.
- Adding Bruising to tank T1s
- Moving Taunt. -
And they also tend to stick with a theme:
Progression:
Rage, Focused Rage, Righteous Rage, Furious Rage.
Luck, Good Luck, Phenmenal luck, Amazing luck.
Insight, Keen Insight, Uncanny Insight, Sight beyond Sight
Sturdy, Rugged, Robust, Resistant.
Fits better than "Ironsides." -
"Resistant" fits what it does. Adds resistance.
"Ironclad" I'd associate more with defense. -
Quote:Yeah but that's not really "against the cottage rule." All the powers were still there adn doing the same thing, just rearranged a bit.Originally Posted by BrandX
Taunt got put into a new spot as well on Tankers.
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Eh.
Aside from some sets directly resisting it (or adding END drain resist to teammates, like Insulation Shield,) it could be argued that they already DID give everyone "mitigation to END drain" by giving in and providing everyone with inherent fitness, including Stamina at low level, as well as +Recovery being rather liberally spread out in IO bonuses. -
Not a "horrible oversight," but I wouldn't argue against having them put out in a fixed order.
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So, you'd be perfectly happy if, say, you just worked up an Inv/SS tank... only to have INV completely changed? Say, they decide Inv needs an aura that has a *physical* AOE effect on the enemies, and turn Dull Pain into Safety Zone, which does an AOE Knockback instead of the heal/hp boost?
Or maybe take Kinetics and turn Fulcrum Shift into a sort of Group Fly?
"Oh, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about minor changes." If you're talking about changes to magnitude, the ever popular-to-whine-about request to change KB to KD, or changes like Electric Aura got (which changed a power *name* when they turned Conserve Power into Energize - END discount to END Discount *and a heal,*) you're not having a problem with the cottage rule. If you're talking about (say) Hide losing its end cost, you're not talking about the cottage rule. The base purpose of the power stays the same.
Do you know WHY (hint, *especially in this day and age of sometimes very expensive IO sets, for instance,) the "Cottage rule" exists? And exactly how many times it's been violated? (Once, *maybe* twice - Fold Space getting removed completely, Wormhole being moved into place and Gravity getting a pet is the only single instance I can think of, and that was an Issue 0/Issue 1 change.)
Little history for you:
When the devs added a fifth power in the Patron (and later Epic) pools, they didn't do so because they thought "Oh, a fifth power would be great." No. In beta (closed, at the time,) they *flat out replaced* a slew of powers. For instance, my Ice/Psy/Mace Dom had her Disruptor Blast just *replaced* with a Personal Force Field. I had no use for it, they removed a source of damage, and irritated the hell out of me. And that was one of several "we think it's useless so we're going to replace it" powers. They got a VERY good, firsthand reminder of why they should NOT just do outright power replacements, as most of those in the beta at the time were calling out for blood.
You'll notice five powers in those pools now, which by *increasing* choice is a FAR better solution.
Also, you don't "get" what Null does. NULL DOES NOT CHANGE THE POWER. He removes ONLY a movement buff *from you.* The power itself is the same - and, frankly, was useful before *AND IS STILL USEFUL* (just ask a Stone tank what they'd think if the devs just did a universal removal of the speed buff from Speed Boost.) Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes.
Remember, your "terrible" power is one that someone else *likes* and *uses.* The devs have to have a very good reason (such as a power directly counteracting an AT or powerset's abilities to a debilitating degree) before they'd likely look at it. "I don't like it when other people knock back a target," for instance, is not that sort of issue.