Stalkers won't be getting Titan Weapons will they?
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-07-04 11:49 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Nobody knows yet.
Given that the Titan-Weapon mechanics are in opposition to the desired Stalker play-style, it would be a safe assumption to say that Stalkers will not get titan-weapons.
Does that mean there won't be another melee power-set built for stalkers?
As of this point the developers have not said anything.
Maybe the devs can give stalkers Super Strength when they give the better loved/developed Melee ATs Titan Weapons.
And leave rage in for godsake.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Personally I would settle on them actually fixing the stalker teaming issues once and for all. They can keep the super big weapons, I just want to put an end finally to "lol stalkers".
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So I have been reading up on this new set, and how it will use a new "momentum" mechanic that speeds up its attack animations as time goes on.
How would this work on a stalker? I mean stalkers are supposed to have a more staggered attack style (Cough USELESS ASSASSIN STRIKE Cough) and that is one of the main reasons they get the cool utility powers replaced with build up. So Is it pretty safe to assume that Stalkers will not get Titan Weapons? If that assumption is correct, are they getting something else in exchange? |
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Who's to say they should get anything in "exchange"? If they don't get it, they simply don't. Why would you care anyway? It's not like stalkers are useful or will ever get the attention they need to become so. Just like peacebringers. Or pvp. Some things just don't warrant dev attention.
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So sad but so true at the same time. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Who's to say they should get anything in "exchange"? If they don't get it, they simply don't. Why would you care anyway? It's not like stalkers are useful or will ever get the attentionthey need to become so. Just like peacebringers. Or pvp. Some things just don't warrant dev attention.
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
That won't happen.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Maybe the devs can give stalkers Super Strength when they give the better loved/developed Melee ATs Titan Weapons.
And leave rage in for godsake. |
If super-strength was ported the set would get an assassin's blow, build-up, and placate.
Oh they must!
Stalkers are the only place I see them being able to incoporate the longish animation time an amusing "Heft oversized weapon overhead... stagger back a couple steps... then rush forward and swing down or shove through..." Assasin's Strike alternate animation.
It would be a groundbreakingly hilarious option to the expected and frankly dull, I'm able to swing this rediculously oversized thing with ease, I am the master of this weapon (for whatver focused chi/psuedo science/mystic reason you wish to incert here) attack animation that we know we will see.
I will be very sad if the Heavy weapons in general do not have comedy versions of the set's attacks in general but... I mean here is the perfect spot to have something like this. Shock us all dev's and give us some Funnies!
Cheers all! 
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Hopefully they'll do what they did with Electric - replace Hand Clap with AS, not Foot Stomp.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
That won't happen.
If super-strength was ported the set would get an assassin's blow, build-up, and placate. |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
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Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244076|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Who's to say they should get anything in "exchange"? If they don't get it, they simply don't. Why would you care anyway? It's not like stalkers are useful or will ever get the attention they need to become so. Just like peacebringers. Or pvp. Some things just don't warrant dev attention.
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To end the speculation: The problems Stalkers have at this point are systemic, not specific to them. However, due to their intended playstyle, they are hit by these things in particularly harsh fashion. Example "Shared Aggro": On a team of 8, someone aggros a large spawn of 16 mobs. Approximately half the mobs immediately peel off and attack the aggroers teammates, regardless of LOS or Stealth preventing them from being able to see where those teammates are. For most ATs, this is a minor inconvenience. For Stalkers, it can cost them a substantial amount of their alpha strike damage. In the past, I've addressed this to a degree by increasing their damage, adding additional critical avenues and even adding a Fear debuff to their Assassin Strike abilities. At this point, they are about as strong as we want to make them, which means any further improvements have to lie in addressing those systemic problems. Frankly, that means it is a LOT more complicated and manpower consuming. And, that is where it stands. Rather than further derail this thread, this should be continued over in the Stalker forums. |
You. Are. WRONG.
The fact is this: The developers have done significant amount of work on Stalkers, giving them buff after buff after buff.
The problems with Stalkers are in how the game itself is played, and how the players treat each character. Those SYSTEMS issues are the issues that have to be addressed.
So you can drop your little F.U.D. propaganda tactic. It isn't going to fly around here.
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Electric is actually a better example for what they would do. The devs kept Lightning Rod in the Stalker Electric Melee, despite it being a full PBAOE attack. |
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Hopefully they'll do what they did with Electric - replace Hand Clap with AS, not Foot Stomp.
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Since the precedent is set, it's likely that Foot Stomp would be retained should the set be ported.
Something else that would be interesting for Stalkers would be Ice Melee...
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
How would this work on a stalker? I mean stalkers are supposed to have a more staggered attack style (Cough USELESS ASSASSIN STRIKE Cough) and that is one of the main reasons they get the cool utility powers replaced with build up.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Given that the Titan-Weapon mechanics are in opposition to the desired Stalker play-style, it would be a safe assumption to say that Stalkers will not get titan-weapons.
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Devs have said in the past they didn't want to give us joke weapons... hence no Frying Pans, over-sized lollipops, wooden-oars, bars of sheet iron, carp / trout melee, and so on and so forth.|
Originally Posted by RogueDemonhunter
Oh they must!
Stalkers are the only place I see them being able to incoporate the longish animation time an amusing "Heft oversized weapon overhead... stagger back a couple steps... then rush forward and swing down or shove through..." Assasin's Strike alternate animation. It would be a groundbreakingly hilarious option to the expected and frankly dull, I'm able to swing this rediculously oversized thing with ease, I am the master of this weapon (for whatver focused chi/psuedo science/mystic reason you wish to incert here) attack animation that we know we will see. I will be very sad if the Heavy weapons in general do not have comedy versions of the set's attacks in general but... I mean here is the perfect spot to have something like this. Shock us all dev's and give us some Funnies! Cheers all! |
The basic problem with Titan Weapons and Stalkers isn't so much the animations. I love the idea of smacking something from /hide with a rail-road sign as much as anybody else.
The problem is the unique attack mechanics associated with Titan Weapons. We've been told that as the players increase their attacks the animations will also get faster.
This goes contrary to the stalker-mechanic of hit-and-run.
Now, admittedly, very little of the team-game these days is played through hit-and-run. The mechanics of what Stalkers are supposed to do doesn't really fit well with the rest of the game design goals, such as the requirement that no content be in-completable with a specific archtype.
Granted, the developers could create further situations, such as the Barracuda task force, where a stalker would give a team a tangible benefit by completing "stalker" only objectives.
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And then we could bring Scrappers on said Strike Force.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Granted, the developers could create further situations, such as the Barracuda task force, where a stalker would give a team a tangible benefit by completing "stalker" only objectives.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Thanks for contradicting yourself and therefore invalidating your own argument without my help. I hope, in the future, you'll finally understand the error of your ways...|
Originally Posted by je_saist
This goes contrary to the stalker-mechanic of hit-and-run. Now, admittedly, very little of the team-game these days is played through hit-and-run. The mechanics of what Stalkers are supposed to do doesn't really fit well with the rest of the game design goals, such as the requirement that no content be in-completable with a specific archtype. |
Ah, who am I kidding. You're je_saist, it's like your job to harp on while being totally wrong
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Im also curious about this. Build up, assassin strike, fight, fight, fight, placate, assassin strike, fight, fight. Dont see anything that would interfere with titan weapons.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
This....makes no sense. Opposed to desired Stalker playstyle? Do you two even play stalkers? Because it really sounds like you have no clue what you're talking about.
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And if you consider the fact that Assassin's Strike is usually within a certain window of animation speeds (Kinetic Melee has the shortest I believe while certain weapon sets have the longest but it's only by like a fraction of a second difference), it's actually a *boon* to have a high damage attack that will always be a certain speed to start out vs needing to build up speed with weaker quicker attacks to use the high powered ones effectively.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Im also curious about this. Build up, assassin strike, fight, fight, fight, placate, assassin strike, fight, fight. Dont see anything that would interfere with titan weapons.
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If you really have to wonder, look at Kinetic Melee and Power Siphon vs Build Up. Yes, PS will get you better DPS and higher damage potential, but being able to just click BU then your strongest hit (which will probably recharge BU again) can and *IS* an advantage when the former has to use small weak attacks first to ramp up to that higher potential.
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Can't really say until we see how that momentum mechanic works. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Im also curious about this. Build up, assassin strike, fight, fight, fight, placate, assassin strike, fight, fight. Dont see anything that would interfere with titan weapons.
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As for hit and run... yeah. Other than a rare PVP instance (basically being a spoiler/distraction,) I stick around and fight. Burst - scrap-scrap-placate-burst.
There are some people in this thread that don't play stalkers and also don't play with other stalkers. It's far too obvious that their stalker experience is stuck in Issue 6.
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I have 4 level 50 stalkers and a new KM/EA upcoming all with builds that 95%of the player base could not afford.
Leo we have had this conversation, and you know I am firmly in the "Assassin's strike is useless camp." (It does make a good place for minimum level kinetic combat though 
)
Stalkers are supposed to be the masters of burst damage (again I think scrappers do it just as well if not better...), how does a set that is based on ramping up attack speed over time fit with the burst damage concept?
It just doesn't, so I can see the devs pulling another shield defense on the stalker AT.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Because variable attack speed isn't a damnable mechanic that is deemed unplayable for stalkers. I should know, I have a lvl 50 Spines stalker and a lvl 40 EM stalker. They are slow and they don't speed up.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Stalkers are supposed to be the masters of burst damage (again I think scrappers do it just as well if not better...), how does a set that is based on ramping up attack speed over time fit with the burst damage concept?
It just doesn't, so I can see the devs pulling another shield defense on the stalker AT. |
The reason shields was pulled is because of the multiple PBAoE effects (enemy aura for +dmg, ally +def and ally self +def). For an AT not meant to sit around next to allies, it's understandable but I think it can be made to work or changed so it doesn't so heavily rely on being planted next to stuff.
So explain to me exactly why you think momentum is anti-stalker. I'm not the only poster not understanding your rationale.
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Simple: |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
So explain to me exactly why you think momentum is anti-stalker. I'm not the only poster not understanding your rationale.
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The majority of players in the game are not soft-capped to defense.
The majority of players in the game cannot take their stalker, stand in the middle of a mob, and scrap scrap scrap.
The majority of players in the game who have stalkers have to play stalkers via the designed hit-and-run tactics.
The fact of the matter is this: The kinematic advancement that has been mentioned for Titan Melee is said to be driven by landing successive attacks.
This means you, the player, have to stay in melee range in order to keep pulling these attacks off to build up the momentum to generate the faster animations.
It is very likely that this kinematic advancement is an extension of the technology used for the combo-system in Dual-Blades.
From the Dev's perspective it doesn't matter if the hard-core IO booster players can run their stalkers like scrappers, and thus sustain the attacks to drive higher animations.
The developers have to build power-sets to cater to more than just the hard-core players.
The result is that Titan Melee, as it has been described by the developers, does not fit the mechanics of gameplay as leveraged by the stalker.
Still not agreeing with you there, saist.
As mentioned - I *stay* in melee with my stalkers. They have more than just AS to use. The momentum mechanic would work perfectly well with that.
IF Stalkers were really *designed* as a hit-and-run AT, as you describe it - as opposed to the playerbase focusing on that sort of thing witha "Stalkers are squishy!" attitude - I'd expect to see ... well, something closer to a Dominator Assault powerset, not a slightly modified Melee powerset. I'd expect to see far vaster Stalker secondary changes than the near-ports we see coming over.
And before you make any assumptions about my builds, I tend to have few to zero sets in them. SOs and standard IOs, maybe a KB IO in sets like Ninjutsu. First 50 Stalker? MA/Regen... *before* things like the "No-END-cost HIDE" changes. So I'm not talking from a softcapped-*anything* standpoint, or IO'd out uberbuild standpoint.
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That's stupid, dumb and idiotic logic. Who ever said you needed to 'stand in a mob' in the first place!?|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Simple:
The majority of players in the game are not soft-capped to defense. The majority of players in the game cannot take their stalker, stand in the middle of a mob, and scrap scrap scrap. The majority of players in the game who have stalkers have to play stalkers via the designed hit-and-run tactics. |
That's like saying a blaster needs to stand in a mob just to use melee attacks. Not only do they not have to *stand* around a *mob* of foes, they don't even need to be the center of aggro to do it. Heck, stalker has a power that *REMOVES* aggro so you can be attacking a target that's hitting someone else.
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This means you, the player, have to stay in melee range in order to keep pulling these attacks off to build up the momentum to generate the faster animations. It is very likely that this kinematic advancement is an extension of the technology used for the combo-system in Dual-Blades. From the Dev's perspective it doesn't matter if the hard-core IO booster players can run their stalkers like scrappers, and thus sustain the attacks to drive higher animations. The developers have to build power-sets to cater to more than just the hard-core players. The result is that Titan Melee, as it has been described by the developers, does not fit the mechanics of gameplay as leveraged by the stalker. |
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I have to figure out where you got your reading comprehension skills so I can sue the place for a disservice to mankind.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Your post indicates that the Stalkers themselves are the problem, and that the developers don't care about stalkers, or don't want to focus attention on Stalkers.
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First, I don't claim that stalkers themselves are the problem. My post only says that Stalkers are not useful in most CoH/V content. The simple fact is that in nearly every scenario, a Scrapper will be more beneficial to the team than a Stalker of comparable powersets.
Next, I don't claim that the developers don't care about Stalkers. I say that they will not get the attention they need to become useful. In the very Castle post you quoted, he says the problems inherent in the systems are not being looked at because of how resource intensive a solution would be.
So again, je saist, you prove that your incorrect spelling of "I know" in French is symbolic of your knowledge and attitude. Thank you for playing. Try again next year.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
So I have been reading up on this new set, and how it will use a new "momentum" mechanic that speeds up its attack animations as time goes on.
How would this work on a stalker? I mean stalkers are supposed to have a more staggered attack style (Cough USELESS ASSASSIN STRIKE Cough) and that is one of the main reasons they get the cool utility powers replaced with build up.
So Is it pretty safe to assume that Stalkers will not get Titan Weapons?
If that assumption is correct, are they getting something else in exchange?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!