GeminiProject

Gud eeeveneen ladieees and ladies pretending to be gennelmeeen,

Tonight we have two ElA crappers duking it out for the high recharge build championsheep. The winner will take home this champeeonsheep belt made of bacon and babies toes.

In the peenk corner, wearing the mauve tutu, we have the ElA crapper with:
180% recharge
447% regen
23.2% Def to all relevant positions

In the fuchsia corner, wearing the lederhosen, we have the ElA crapper with:
185% recharge
518% regen
zeeeero Def

Both ladies have similar resists and attack chains. Everything else about the dudes is basically the same.

Who would you root for? More regen or positional defense dude? The 71% regen difference is really only 5 HP per sec more regen, so it seems pitifully low and every bone in my body tells me positional defense dude is going to bash regen junkie's face in.

Would anyone, ever root for more regen for Ela over positional defense? Does it makes sense in gameplay even thought it seems to not make sense at all numerically?

Yeah Defense based sets, due to their binary nature, are late bloomers and have a painful pre 30 life. I've grown to take that as a given for the tradeoff. Once properly IOd, they shine pretty brightly (or not so brightly for EA). As BillZ pointed it out, it seems that at least for EA, it is better to leave it's holes as they are and try to up the recharge on the heal to make up for the incoming damage in those categories.

I think what Spiritchaser said, which is exactly what happens with the Animater Robots, is the raw deal for EA: def debuffing psi attacks will tear EA apart and no amount of self healing in the world will save you after that point of no return.

This is of course on top of the regular defense sets' can opener, tohit buffs.

What I find a pity is that there is no circumstance ever, in which EA will come on top when compared to the other def based secondaries, both SR and SD will do everything EA does and then some, unless of course you count stealthing to the end of the mission. =)

I do have to admit that I am being very harsh on EA as I usually tend to push the envelope out the ears of the brutes I play with. And EA so far, has been riding the short bus. To be fair, I have not yet thrown purples at it yet. I dont have THAT much inf to burn.

It is very refreshing to see that a lot of good points are popping up which I had never thought of.

2.7 end per sec?

No you definitely dont have too much recovery to be able to run all those toggles.

Also you seem to have toggled on invisibility and slotted it for def. You can not attack with invisibilty. I would use stealth to do that instead.

I dont agree much with your slotting Divine avalanche. Since you are already capped for defense in those areas you really dont need to use DA. Slotting RTTC with heals will help out with the regen a lot more than the double LotG in there.


I would definitely convert those Def and Resist only IOs to De/End or Res/End frankenslots, that will help you with your end problem.

If you are going to take some powers just for the set bonuses I would suggest you look at the taunt and the presence pools to slot the taunt sets, they have excellent typed defense bonuses and would work better than some of the def to all powers you picked that are going to be heavy on endurance. I'de definitely drop the stealth pool if you really can live without sealthing things.

I went ahead and re did the numbers, you've got a very good point BillZ. It is overall better to slot for recharge and +Heal to have the heal up and heal as much as possible rather than try to close the psionic def gap on EA. The overall global recharge benefits you much more and you would survive a lot better on average than closing the psi gap but having low neg energy def and toxic hole.

Is mids correct in that you only have 57% def debuff resistance?

Yes, I've never played a tanker so I have zero experience with ice armor. I cannot comment.

The reason typed defense is at a disadvantage in general is very simple, there is no toxic typed defense. This is akin to having a fourth positional defense against which you have zero mitigation. No matter how rare it is, it exists and there is no counterpart for this in positional defense.

Mis-typed or missing labels on attacks are anoyying indeed and should be fixed, but that is a little outside of what I was trying to focus on.

Dont get me wrong, typed defense works well on top of existing hybrid sets like WP, Invuln and SA. However if it is the primary mitigation like in EA, having a hole in the damage type to which you are not patching it up via resistance, regen or mitigation is what makes EA lag behind other def based sets. Hence why the post is primarily about EA and it's use of typed defense rather than typed defense in general.

The second reson EA lags is the psi hole which takes a whole lot of investment to patch up. Unlike any of the other Def sets, where you don't have to dedicate your enitre build to make up for a weakness.

Sorry if that was not clear.

True, but the heal is so sub par that I've actually forgotten about it. Bumping the heal may be another option akin to giving the set some crutches.

But more importantly, do you think EA in it's current form is "OK" or would you think it would benefit a performance bump by tweaking the existing powers slightly and not actually changing some foundation stones like I had posted?

Hey Santorican

This is the build I'm toying with. I'm still not very happy about it, but this is as good as I could get it. I've given up on capping melee def by a few % but got higher resists in there to make up for the incoming damage somewhat.

I could have gotten higher def and more recovery if I was wiling to gimp the recharge but perma hasten and MG>Smite>SL being the normal attack chain peppered with Shield charge is too good to give up.

I used to slot SL like you did but desperately needed that extra 5% rech from the set to keep the global recharge up.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(5)
Level 1: Deflection -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(7), HO:Ribo(7), DefBuff-I:50(17), GA-3defTpProc:50(40)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(9), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(9)
Level 4: True Grit -- Heal-I:50(A), Heal-I:50(11), ResDam-I:50(11), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(45)
Level 6: Boxing -- Amaze-Stun:50(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg:50(13), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(13), Amaze-Acc/Rchg:50(15), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun:50(15)
Level 8: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 10: Active Defense -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(50), HO:Enzym(50)
Level 12: Siphon Life -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(27), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(27), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(29), Heal-I:50(48)
Level 14: Tough -- HO:Ribo(A), HO:Ribo(17), HO:Ribo(40)
Level 16: Health -- Mrcl-Heal:40(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(19), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(21)
Level 18: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(23)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(21), EndMod-I:50(23)
Level 22: Weave -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(25), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(25), LkGmblr-Def:50(43)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel:50(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx:50(29), Zephyr-ResKB:50(39), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(46), DefBuff-I:50(50)
Level 26: Dark Consumption -- Armgdn-Dmg:50(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(31), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(33), EndMod-I:50(40)
Level 28: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel:50(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx:50(33), Zephyr-ResKB:50(33)
Level 30: Soul Drain -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), Oblit-%Dam:50(45)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Hectmb-Dmg:50(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(34), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(36), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(37), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-%Dam:50(39)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(43), RechRdx-I:50(43)
Level 41: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel:50(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx:50(42), Zephyr-ResKB:50(42)
Level 44: Ring of Fire -- GravAnch-Immob:50(A), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg:50(46), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(46), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg:50(48), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx:50(48)
Level 47: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 49: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

I've been looking at the typed defense offered by EA and have seriously been having a hard time justifying some of it's basic principles. EA got a buff not so long ago (about a few issues back), that took it out of the seriously dead last and lagging by a mile performance and put it up to dead last but no longer by a mile performance. It is a playable, but noticeably inferior defense set, due to the fact that it uses typed defense rather than positional defense, and combines it with resistances that are to resistance as Gene Simmons is to machismo.

Typed defense as you know, is mostly found on 'hybrid' sets to complement the existing toys of the secondary. WP gets it, Invuln gets it and SA gets it. All those sets of course get lower typed defense than EA (easily fixed with IOs), lack def debuff resistance and have some serious other things to make them live and let smash.

The major problem with EA and it's typed defense when compared to positional defense offered in Def sets like SR and SD, seems to be the huge toxic and somewhat fixable psi hole in the defense. To be fair, EA is getting some toxic protection in the form of some absolutely pitiful resistance (~14%) which will allow you to think "oh crap" a few seconds before the faceplant animation begins. You can of course somewhat patch up the psi defense hole by using 60% of your slots and entirely foregoing any other plans you had with them such as getting perma hasten.

If you don't mind playing a character that has all the vulnerabilities of positional defense sets, AND gets shaky knees against psi and toxic, then you're in luck, you can build toons that are just as good as positional defense characters, as long as you are willing to make a faceplant ballet against clockwork, carnies, toxic tarantulas, snakes, and many many more baddies which normally bear a neon "free kill" sign to positional defense characters.

So why such a vulnerability when compared to other similar defense sets? Do we really get something that makes up for this? The end recovery, nice, but blue bar protection < green bar protection. Death is the ultimate end drain after all. We also get some resistances that are a little worse than what SD gets, a nice stealth toy which ironically you may want to use a lot to avoid the plethora of things that could rip you a new EA.

Positional Defense has NO weakness that is NOT also a weakness for typed defense. Typed defense just has more weaknesses on top of the inherent defense weaknesses. Why the additional weakness? It's not like EA gets something that is so much better than LR or scaling resistance of SR or the many toys of SD (+HP, Shield charge, +DMG, better resistances).

Now one could step in and say Positional defense is too strong. I have to disagree, positional defense is under performing until bumped up to 35% to softcap where it becomes great and as good as an equally IOd out resistance/hybrid secondary. Plus we just got a second Positional defense set that seems to perform at least as well as if not better than the existing SR.

I want to play EA, I seriously do. But right now everything else is a better choice. I'm not trying to insult or madden the EA users out there. I like my EA toons, they look purty. But man do I under perform by miles.... uh slightly less than a mile.

So what could be a solution? The purpose of the thread. Do you identify with the basic conundrum above, or do you have another view on the subject, something I'm overlooking and that might allow me to enjoy EA once again without a second "castling" of the set?

I'd imagine there are two options available to EA. The simplest, most straightforward solution would be getting rid of the psi/toxic def holes (don't know how easy it is to implement a toxic defense so 'simplest' might be a massive overstatement code wise).

The other way, is to go the WP/SD way and add +HP and some higher Psi/Toxic resistance. We can lower our S/L resistance to make up for that bump, we got the defense for it.

What differentiates it form the other defense sets? Well not survivability for one. You'd have to go an entirely different IO route than positional defense and all three sets would have a different bad of toys.

The stealth and end recovery of EA are very nice toys to have. After all, there are only a few things that a solid secondary look at to give it some sexyness factor:
recharge,
regen,
recovery,
+HP,
drain/-recov resist,
slow resist,
+damage

SR has the recharge and slow resist covered. SD has the +HP, +Dmg portion covered. Why not let EA focus on the +end / drain resist and something similar to the -end found in the new ElA toy? Regen would be nice, but seeing how amazingly awesomest of superness incarnate regen is on defense sets, it would be too much.

This would make EA the ElA of defense sets, somewhat makes sense since the two sets are so similar in original design. Drain resist, is probably, not so great as the other toys given to SR and SD since well you can evade 90% of the draining attacks by being defense based anyway, but it's better than what we have now.

Any ideas? Thoughts? Flames? *prepares burn lotion* and sorry for the wall o text.

For PvE purposes, I really wish the damage of Broadsword was brought up to match the DPA of Katana. The sets are literally identical save for cosmetic differences.

They are identical except for the fact that BS has lower DPA. And at high recharge (not even crazy recharge) katana is far superior to BS in every single way. Higher Dmg to match the longer Activation time of the stronger attacks would bring BS up to par with Katana DPA (DPS) and offer a difference with longer animating stronger attacks with same stretched out dpa, when compared to Katana.

Even if you look at the Damage per power graph of BS which gives you the DPS of a chain, as soon as the second attack begins, katana wins.

The min/maxer in me wants a katana/ela brute so I can end worlds on my own.

Depends what you mean by best. But as others in the thread have pointed out;

Best AoE Alpha: ElM/SD Scrapper
Lightning rod and shield charge make for one mean everyone dies now toon.

Best Lazy Guy AoE: Spines/FA Scrapper
Toggle auras on, use Fiery embrace, use burn.

Most efficient AoE Steamroller: SS/Fire Brute
Rage, embrace, Elec-Fences, Footstomp, Burn with fury inside™

Found the bug, at least for me.

I had for some reason show 500 posts per page in my options. And I guess the forum was going, 'uh-uh, no way I'm not going through that much trouble for your ***, you get a blank page."

At least I can say, the option, show 500 posts per page does not work for threads that have 500 posts to show per page. It should be disabled in the options.

=)

Claws/ELA scrapper or redeemed brute (in the future) blueside will basically be the Carnie King. As BillZ said SR handles them as well as it handles most other things, but for some reason that ring mistress mask always hits me through the def cap, always.

As an ElA however they are as insignificant as rikti. Claws for the added pleasure of shredding them with style.

Is it just me or is the DB also coming down with n1h1? Threads such as the Open Beta Architect Feedback thread are opening blank white pages for me. Some other random threads also seem to be pointing to the nether.

Anyone else?

Always.

I have a Love/Indifference problem with my toons as well.
I:
1) build a toon,
2) roll him,
3) rough it out till he's like the build,
4) fall in love with it,
5) play play play play, gosh tthis is so bbqawseomesauce, play play play
6) think "hmm I wonder if X/X with a,b,c and this slotting would bea ble to..."
7) goto 1

I sense the something simlar to the flight animation changes (response wise) brewing behind this potential change. >.< looks like this will be painful.

I added the New Dev Digest to Google Reader, replacing my old red tomax digest rss since that one is still borked.

First thing: I get the same, old dev posts every few hours as new posts. I swear when I check my reader in the morning I have something like 150-200 new items in Dev digest, but they are all the old posts, just being pushed as if they were new. BaB's last digest post has been the last one since a day or so but in the meantime the Reader got like 350 new item listings which are the same old ones.

Second part, suggestion: It would be good to have the body of the post along with the title fed to your RSS. I mean there is almost no point in subscribing to simply the post titles without having a glimpse at the post itself. Kind of beats the purpose of reading the digest through RSS if you have to go to the forum to read the post, and go through the loading forums, graphics etc etuff. Especially since most Dev posts are responses and we all know how response subject lines relate to post content.

I really have to wait and see the changes to CP. ElA on brutes failed mostly against huge spawns and took on a few strong targets exceptionally well. (mostly due to aid self's interrupt)

In it's old state ElA was the ultimate anti spines set, so I'm really curious what the new CP will bring to that (although an uninterruptible self heal will be a HUGE set changing addition).

I was a lot more excited by claws/Ela I have to say

You might be skewed with WP's out of the box performance, but if you stick with it here a a few amazing brute combos:

DM/SR : Late bloomer but what a bloomer
DM/ELA : Great complimentary combo with SL
DM/FA : Very fun and easy combo to play, two heals, two end rocovery powers. Buckloads of fun.
DM/DA/Soul Brute : The quintessential Dark/Dark/Dark Brute. THank god with i16 you will be able to change the visuals as it gets VERY boring to stare at a ball of smoke that smokes everything. This is also an amazingly fun set.

EM/ELA : Yes EM (energy Melee) was nerfed, but it is STILL an amazing Single Target Damage Set

WM/Ela : WM was buffed recently up to very very repectable levels and works well with ELA
WM/SR : The other side of the mirror comapred to ELA but also a fast and furious build (SR's PB might be slightly annoying with redraw but nothing dramatic)

Stone/Dark Armor : Oppressive Gloom + Fault !!!
(I know you said no SM but this build is particularly amazing so I had to put it here)

Lots of others come to mind but these kind of stick out for me. Withthe upcoming claws though, Claws/ElA, Claws/SR and Claws/FA are brtues I intend to make.

^^^^ What Ethina Said. INV is a late bloomer indeed and really shines with IO bonuses late late game.

In terms of performance, I would say each secondary has it's own special curve but the end point at 50 is quite solid.

Without IOs, or set bonuses, I would say WP has the performance edge over Inv. Both have their con opener enemies of course, but WP's regen works generally better than INV's +Def, without io bonuses (thats just how defense works).

I thin the MAJOR difference between the two is playstyle. WP's quick recovery is a godsend for brutes and definitely will help you out with the blue bar without the unique IOs. WP's regen, -to hit from RTTC and +Def from HS work wee together.

INV's solid resists are a good start (especially to the abundant S/L) but the +to Hit is kind of like an odd man out, not really complementing any exisiting survival tool built into the secondary (unlike -toHit in WP). I guess you could use it to help out with the attack slotting but even there the numbers are too small to make any significant difference in your +Acc slotting.

Psi attacks will definitely rip you a new one in INV, and elemental damage, without IO support to your DEF will be tougher to deal with than WP. But the new changes that give you exotic resists (slows and -recov) make you slightly stronger against WP's bane (-regen/-recov and slows) but not by a landslide.

The biggest playstyle difference, for me, is Dull Pain. WP has an Auto +HP power with no heal while INV has a +Heal/HP power. Since you are going with mace, Dull pain will cause redraw since it is a click power. Situationally, Dull Pain will work better than WP's HPT, as it will heal and boost you when you really need it. But the flipside is it might be recharging when you need it again.

With IO bonuses, both build can be put to amazing levels of performance, with INV, in my opinion, havinng a sliver of an edge.