GavinRuneblade

Purples and PvP IOs still have the enhancement bonus reduced. Only the set bonus is immune to exemplaring rules.

However any PvP quad is immune to this effect down to level 21 by virtue of rule #1 of exemplaring. Any level 43 or lower triple, and any level 24 or lower dual.

Purples are shafted straight across the board because they give higher values so always get reduced.

Alchemical Silver also. That's more of a middle-tier though.

oooh, good call, totally forgot DA.

You can do it faster than that. I have 14 characters in my solo group. Once every three days I can log them each in and auto complete a newspaper mission, each one nets 344 prestige. I only need to do 8 of them to earn enough to pay rent for a month. That's what, 30 seconds for log out, call it 2 minutes to log in, load screen, call up contacts, pick mission, call up contacts, complete mission, log out?

So 15 to 20 minutes to pay rent. Tops. And you don't even need to play the game to pull that off!

Regarding your Edit 2, no we see it as a massive boon not a nerf. #1 the rare time that I can do a TF I get more than 1 roll worth of reward. #2 I have access to rewards that otherwise might as well not have existed for me thanks to story content and oro.

As more average than marketer, except for the lack of recipes on the market it was a massive boon to me. Before merits I did a grand total of 5 TFs in a year. I've done a few more in my second year.

but I run a huge number of oro arcs and I primarily do story arc content. I generate well over 100 times more pool C's via story merits than via TFs and I generate vastly more via merits than I would via the old 1 TF one Roll method.

So, as someone who has rolled over 300 times, but only done less than 12 TFs ever across all characters in two years, merits were not a nerf to what I generate.

To what I can buy off the market? yes.

In general 30% acc (from 1 SO, or any other source) is fine for +1s. It's a little low for +2s but not terrible (but beware of debuffs), and wholly inadequate for +3/+4.

For +2 and higher you really want 50%+ Two SOs give you about 66% which is good for +2 and ok for +3/+4. You really want 80%-ish for +4s, and/or pick up some toHit rather than just accuracy (Kismet unique, Tactics, etc).

Depending on your environmental reflection settings, the windows of the AE building get pretty neutral from the outside if you're up on the second-floor entrance balcony.

Also the skyline on the islands lacks the warwalls so you can find some prety neutral locations. Nerva I think is a decent spot for that.

Inside the underpasses in the rikti warzone you have some nice blank walls. Over near the crey encampment there are some good long tunnels that work. Atlas park has a few in the north-east I think.

If you have a problem finding any of these let me know and I can try to be more specific.

Long version: I have one VG, it's just me. I have almost maxed out my storage items. I have 700k prestige and am on a smaller-sized plot, needing about 1.5 million more prestige to upgrade the few practical goodies I need, and I have not even 1 non-functional item in my base so eventually I'll be dropping a boatload of inf on looks. But my base works as it is, and if I never earned another point of prestige and didn't upgrade any further, I have enough prestige for over 15 years of payments.

Short Version: You're a big group and rent works for you. I'm as small as they come and with as expensive a base as they come and it works for me too. Looks like it's working as intended.

I do agree with the goat about the annoyance factor though. I have a character parked there just to pay.

Hmm, I didn't know there was a difference between a vet power and the temp version of it. I'm not saying there is or isn't, saying I don't know.

Honestly, I'm thinking in practical terms, getting 2 or 3 more powers activated before bottoming out assuming end-cheap powers, and 1 or 2 more on the end-hungry powers. It doesn't seem like a lot, but if you figure a bad build is standing around clicking a power and hearing the "dun" and seeing "too tired" flash over their head on every spawn, this might let them have it happen every second spawn. And for most people, the goal is to shift from instead of needing to rest, to be able to stand around for a few seconds before moving to the next spawn.

That's about the goal. And based on my own experiences with upgrading slotting, it really would be a big quality of fun shift.

20% is way way way too much. 10% is probably too much. I'll try to do numbers, but I suck so don't hold this to any kind of authority or accuracy. Totally pulled out of my rump here:

Thinking middle-of the road (in terms of endurance consumption) tier 1 - 3 attacks are burning 4 to 6 end, and you recover 1/sec base with those powers having 1 to 2.8 sec animation times with 4+ sec recharge. So you're spending in 2-3 attacks say 10 endurance, but you have at least 2 and probably 4 earned back. So numerically I think I'm saying a 3-7% shift.

That sounds about right.

But specifically not just a flat percentage adjustment to costs. Nutrino bolt you can already practically spam endlessly, that one doesn't need anything changed. And knocking 5-7% off of the heal in dark armor is too much. That's meant to be a big endurance hit.

An adjustment on the low-tier powers (say tier 1-4) would have much more impact than the full powersets and it would somewhat mitigate what you're talking about below with maxing recharge and a recursive problem.

No. Because I'm not talking about a new paradigm. I'm talking a small adjustment. I've also stated repeatedly that I'm not asking about infinite sustainability, and I've also stated that I recognize some powersets burn more than others.

No, that is the slippery slope fallacy. just because a police officer lets one person off of a speeding ticket does not mean the only fair thing is to continue until there are no laws, no prisons and the world is in anarchy.

There are differences between powers, there are differences between ATs. I'm not proposing those be shifted. I'm talking a small tweak in the amount of time it takes to bottom out on end on average.

Not infinite sustainability.

See my notes about the class-specific nature of the problem. The people suffering from it don't have the skills to cause this follow on problem. If they did they could build themselves out of the problem in the first place.

As an example, in your earlier post you mentioned that soft-capped defenses would give a more happy experience than increased endurance. My argument is that the people involved have never heard the term "soft cap" and if you told them about it they wouldn't understand how it works. AE babies and newbs are not going to break the recharge mechanic because they manage to squeeze out a couple more attacks. Now, I'm being hyperbolic here, there are definitely more people involved than just those groups. =)

A more relevant issue is what will it do to high-end builds. With that extra oomph, what can those like you, Umbral, Werner, Top_Doc etc pull off and is that going to be an issue?

From my perspective, I don't think so because there are few enough of you. But I do think it is a real question and why I don't take 90% of the people who ask about endurance modifications seriously when I look at what they are asking for.

Just because it is in the powerset, doesn't mean he has to take it.

But on non-damage ATs they often make up for the accuracy with significantly higher damage. Also, if you're debuffed, sometimes they are better than your normal attacks (like during a rage crash).

You can look at the statements made with builds though. With hasten it is for added benefit. For stamina, it is full of "I can't stand the low levels" "pre-stamina this character sucked", etc. Ever see a post like that about haste? stamina is clearly perceived to be removing a barrier to fun. haste is not described in that way. I think, and I may be wrong but I'm fairly confident, that this is a significant qualitative difference between the two.


The solo-team thing is a very good point. Thank you!

However on the builds, I posit that endurance management is different than a tankermind needing presence. Again it's not just specific builds or characters with specific purposes. It is all builds across all ATs across nearly all powersets. That is a qualitative difference from "tankerminds".

Also, the build issue, I believe is a class issue. Not meaning AT, but as in class-warfare. Have's and Have-Not's. I believe (from observation I will grant you) that the skilled players have no trouble with it but the new players and the low-skill and the middle-skill have too much trouble with it. Too much defined as it is the clearest and most common limit on the fun-factor of this game.

Both teamed and solo. At least in a team the rest can keep going while one rests. But when I'm in a pug, and I see one guy stopping every second spawn, I know he's not having as much fun as the rest of us. Watching everyone else kick *** when you're gasping for breath makes you delete your character. Do it too many times and you delete the game.

At low skill levels, this is too easy and too common.

I do agree that it is not an issue at all for skilled builders. I do still believe it is a problem for the game community on the whole. As for your other claims, I do not support infinite endurance and never asked for it.

slippery slope fallacy. No one is asking for infinite endurance. Asking for a small boost without needing to use mids is a far cry from asking for a godmode. And try to take out a boss with brawl and the origin attack only at level 20. Let me know if you still feel those are adequate to the job.

It was over 14 months ago, but I still remember the mission where a friend told me that sprint cost me endurance when I had it turned on. Was a thorns radio mission in Kings Row in a sewer. I'd been playing for over 5 months at that point. never knew.

I manage my toggles. But I still have trouble. I have a bs/regen with quick recovery, stamina, and physical perfection with 20%-50% end reduction in all attacks who runs out from time to time. I have an elec/elec who never does and hasn't got stamina and doesn't use powersink to recover endurance.

I do posit that the skill required to build like this is too high. Not that it can't be done, but that not enough players who need to do it have the skills to do it.

Since these are generally new players, I further posit this is unhealthy for the player base long-term.

Stamina is perceived as necessary because there are so many other ways to achieve any goal. Want a seamless attack chain? Pick up one more attack. Haste is optional. Want more defense? Combat jump, hover, maneuvers, weave, etc.

Want to rest less often? Already got end reduction in all attacks and toggles? Already hitting 85% or more? Errr. Stamina.

You know, and I know, and most forumites know there are also: the new temp power, inspirations, the base enhancement station, and a dayjob, plus IO set bonuses and accolades. Are any of those convenient? Are any of those available to the skill level and knowledge level of a new player or low-skill player?

the cost for the temp power on the market is often over 1 million, it requires rare salvage often selling up to 4 million unless you're smart enough to buy the low-level version. Can a newb really use this as a solution?

This is a have and have-not problem. If you are good enough it is a non-issue. If you are not good enough, it is a big issue. Looking at the numbers in each group and who the people are in each group, I come down on the side of make a change please.

I do not support removing it altogether. I do support a small adjustment to either base recovery rates or power cost ratios or both. Anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds more life for most poorly-designed builds. With the recovery between spawns that would let people who are resting every spawn, go sometimes three without a rest. This is not godmode, but it is a huge quality of life change.

This issue, in some ways is a class splitting issue. The better the player the less impact it has. Thus it penalizes new players. Those who don't know how to make a proper build. those who don't know proper slotting. Those who don't know to scroll down past the DOs at the store so they actually can buy SOs at level 22.

Play in pugs. Look at people's builds and watch their damage numbers and end usage. Lots of people are not as good as you at making builds. Lots of them. I posit that the difficulty in making the endurance bar last "long enough to have fun with this character" is negligible for a skilled veteran, but too high for a new player, and marginally too annoying for those of us in the middle (some have more patience than others and two of my friends actually like the challenge of designing builds more than playing the game).

Removing it is going too far the other way, and I have never supported that position. And also, I have never seen anyone ask for a godmode. Though I have seen many people who are the sort who think the game is too easy level the accusation.

I will agree that it is easier now, especially with the new temp power. And I also like the day job auto power. But again, both of those are tools more for the middle-of-the-road player and veterans. They are useless for most new players and low-skilled. IE they exagerrate the class-specific nature of this problem.

Have you seen those itty-bitty ones they can train as seeing-eye ponies? You practically need an insulin shot after looking at them.

It's just that combined with oroboros and sidekicking/exemplaring they built in the ability to play at all levels, so why not make the levels a bit more compatible with each other and remove some of teh number inflation?

It's a very high-level game design theory issue. If you look at runescape, their design model is that the tippity top characters can still be swarmed and taken down by the weakest enemies. It doesn't even take a whole lot of them (max hp is 99, minimum damage is 1, if you're "weak" against an attack "melee/ranged/magic" minimum damage is 3 per hit, and minimum chance to hit is higher than 5%). In CoH, even without the aggro cap, no functionally relevant number of level 1 enemies could take out a level 50. That was a design choice on the devs part. Another design choice was for how long an enemy would be relevant to a character, the result of which is our current -3 to +4 band.

Personally, I find that I outlevel missions rather fast. That some zones have enemies who are a massive threat if I'm not careful where I travel (Nerva, RWZ, Shard are the most extreme cases but not the only ones). Now, I kind of like the latter, but I'm not so keen on the former. If the original decision had been to make enemies relevant longer, then the original sidekick system of one mentor per sidekick would have been much more functionally useful, we'd have fewer issues with outlevelling content, etc. It would encourage a wider range of levels teaming up.

Also, when players teams across levels, the differences wouldn't have been as pronounced. The super sidekicking almost totally removes that, but I do think the original decision was made, it may have been nice to aim for 20% of the game's total content instead of 10%. All just theory mind you.

Exactly my thought. Set the minimum price ludicrously low, and the let the bid wars begin.

Not all banners have real-world ads. There are a few good ones in each zone they could open up to the playerbase.

From a marketing perspective, this change would make the realworld ads more valuable as we the players would be more likely to pay attention to banners if some of them have an impact on the game. Although I doubt this willl translate into enough of a difference they raise their real-world ad rates over it.

All Six: day job jet is the same thing, so is the siren's call 30-minute pack, so is the Arena only jet pack.

Seriously, with so many other jet packs, they couldn't give us SOME variety?

I have mixed feelings on this myself. From a simulationist/realism standpoint I can see the value in it. Batman was the hero, Robin the sidekick and it would take away from the story if Robin could do everything as well as Batman.

From a gamist/fun point of view, this isn't a story/comic/tv/movie and there are human's behind each character wanting to have fun. And each having the same right to fun.

Overall, I think the devs struck an ok balance between realism and fun. Yes, some enemies for some builds are particularly hard. Fine. Every three days you can drop a mission. Or you can dial down the difficulty. Or you an pop inspirations. I think that having those options are enough considering the rarity of the really hard missions/enemies.

In general, most people get through most content even with sub-optimal builds and poor play skills and forgetting inspirations. The few times those who know what they are doing and have a reasonable or above reasonable build get into trouble are rare enough that I take it as the devs doing an ok job. If no one ever got in over their head, I'd say the game was too easy. It's a balancing act between too hard and not hard enough, between too much variety and not enough variety. In my opinion, as a particularly unskilled player mind you, I think the devs did a good job. I know a lot of people like to say the game is too easy. I strongly disagree based on my experiences in pugs and with new players. But I think it is not too hard either.

Now, mathematically, I think the "effective range" of -3 to +4 where we can function and get rewards is a pretty narrow band. Within those seven levels, I think a sidekick's -1 might represent too high a percent difference at low levels. I think scaling from -5 to +6 might make the game a bit more flexible. But I also think that at this point, such a decision is beyond the ability of the devs to adjust. And I think sidekicks at 100% the power of the trainer is too much at mid and high level. But at low level, it might be something to visit in the same way as beginner's luck.

Something like a sidekick to a character level 2-19 is the same level as the mentor. At those early levels the extra two slots makes a difference. Each extra power is really noticed. By level 30 people are taking vanity powers. At that point the -1, I think, is fine.

But down lower, you might be right that the -1 could be too much.

Anyhow, I haven't made up my mind on this issue. Thank you for the thread, people are saying interesting things and making me think about it.

Definitely agree here. Only games I know of that come close are Diablo II and Runescape. Runescape you use items which you can run out of, but your inventory and ability to hold them make that a weekly or monthly event, not something that comes up during play. Diablo, between leech and potions and gear for bonuses, it was quite doable to keep your mana full. Quite a few builds were eventually unable to use all their mana nomatter what they did. Granted, some builds (Charged boltress) could have an excessively hard time maintaining mana. But overall both those two did a good job. Most of the rest I've tried? Crap.

Overall CoH does a good job.

The problem is that too much of that "good job" lies in making stamina universal. Without it, well, try an earth/SS tank with no stamina. Or a stone/SR brute. Or an Earth/Earth dominator. Oh sure you can do /EA or /Elec without stamina pretty easily. And most of the mid-range builds can be stamina free with a bit of effort. Some builds, you really can't. And the fact that some players can make stamina-free builds easily enough does not mean the majority of players can.

Right now, the majority of players require stamina to have fun with a build. Right now, the vast majority of "help me with my build" posts include stamina. On nearly every build for nearly every AT. Look through the forums. I challenge anyone to find an AT forum where more posted builds are stamina free than have stamina.


@Rush_Bolt
Really, you're constant harping on belittling posts via passive aggression is getting to the point of literal ridiculousness. As in deserving of ridicule. You deliberately choose children with ponies to make the comparison of other posters to spoiled children. That is an insult. No one is being that rude to you, please cut it out.

However, I lay out a counter challenge to you. I posit that the sheer weight of builds with stamina compared to builds without stamina is proof that the current system is borked. If you can find more builds that are stamina free than we can find with stamina, I'll agree that endurance costs are not too high in general.

But when 100% of the top performing builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use stamina, and when 100% of the lowest common denominator builds across nearly all powersets and across all ATs use it, it is clearly only optional in the same sense that IOs are optional.

When one specific power is that widely used to have basic functionality (low-end builds) and top tier performance (high-end builds) something is out of whack. If it were just those going for AVs with no temps and no insps, then fine. If it were just idiots who were wasting power picks like the guys with flurry, jump kick and whirlwind. Fine. But when it is across the whole spectrum on all ATs and on all powersets that don't have a built-in substitute as well as most that do (even most WillPower and Regen builds take stamina for example), I posit that the sheer volume of those builds with stamina compared to those without is the numerical proof.

I'm sure you'll repeat your pathetic example as I've cited a number of people speaking. But the goal of the game is to have fun. Running out of endurance is not fun. Having enough endurance is not godmode. As a game, the voice of the crowd is sometimes the only statistic that is needed. I posit that endurance is one of those circumstances. Please note that I am not claiming all circumstances the voice of the majority is enough. I am claiming in this specific instance it is.

Too many people have a negative experience of the game without stamina. As people have a negative experience they leave the game. That's not good for the company that makes the game's revenue. In turn that is not good for those of us who want the game to stick around. Endurance is not like a pony, it is not optional it is not a luxury. It seems to be the core throttle mechanic for experience gain. It is also the most obvious and basic limit on a new player's fun. That's qualitatively different from a pony. If you can't see that basic fact, then you truly do deserve to be ridiculed.