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Quote:I'm not convinced they actually need a buff.So you don't want Tanker buffs? Do you just want nerfs? Or neither? Serious question I am trying to understand your direction you are coming from.
I think a lot of players take their massive base mitigation for granted (or downplay it), underestimate their melee contribution in relation to that mitigation (even though they aren't high end damage dealers) and assume that every situation will be fully saturated buffs to the caps. -
Quote:So, basically a pointless "buff" for Brutes since none of them could ever actually hit that cap.Once again you have misread my posts. I never said anything about buffing BASE mitigation. I stated that streamlining the four tank AT's so that they all share the same res/def/hp CAP.
The Tanker would still have the highest base mods. The only thing this would change for Brutes would be they would get a higher HP cap which would be around 160% (260% if not counting base). The Kheldians would see the most benefit from this.
Good start.
Quote:On top of this, Tankers would be getting team buffs, like shouts, that increase the team's HP, resistance, defense, debuffs enemies res, def, etc. (Not all at once, just one at a time)
We have Buff/Debuff ATs already, and they aren't gigantic sacks of un-killable HP. -
Quote:And if you buff the Brute defensively to the point where their base mitigation matches a Tanker's, then their offense will need to be nerfed to compensate.What I am saying is that if you buff the Tanker so much defensively that it stands out from the other ATs, you will have a godmode character that can never be killed.
I never want to see that happen.
IMO Tankers are already too survivable to add buffs and debuffs to the AT. They don't need this. -
Quote:This game is not World of Warcraft.Well other games manage to do this, World of Warcraft has 4 unique tanking classes with all the same caps yet different flavors.
This game doesn't require any AT to get any content done.
Having specific ATs for things, just makes some of those encounters smoother or easier.
Case in point - I've run wildly successful (read: surprisingly smooth & fast completion) all VEAT BAFs & Lambdas, not an aggro holder in sight.
What you seem to want is to push this game and its ATs more towards WoW and less like CoH, my opinion is that this is an absolutely horrendous idea. -
Quote:That might be true of Brutes and Scrappers, but not Tankers.That was my conclusion as well, although SR does at least compensate slightly by allowing you to use alternate set bonuses instead of chasing positional defense.
Tanker SD is generous enough in base defense that you don't really need to focus on all that much positional defense slotting.
It also gets an amount of resistance & +HP built in that no amount of chasing will ever help SR.
So maybe some recovery, regen and some more recharge.
Here's a high end SD/DM/Soul Tanker build.
I think it would be pretty hard for an SR/DM/Soul to get more out of the overall package than this build does.
(Take note of the staggering 3K HP before using OWTS)
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Quote:First I don't really agree with Ultimus' proposal for a lot of reasons.Originally Posted by ArcanavilleThe Tanker is the singular "tanking class" as such, and on the red side the canonical role of tanking was split between brutes and masterminds.
On the other hand, I think whatever the canonical roles were when CoV came out is a thing of the past. I think at least Synapse sees it this way as well.
Quote:Originally Posted by SynapseI think it's safe to say that the original design of some archetypes differ from reality.
Seeing as Brutes now have a Taunt aura in every one of their secondaries, including Regen, I think its pretty safe to say that they are clearly intended to hold aggro.
Whether or not that is only part of the definition of tanking and how much it represents is another matter. -
We're seeing new sets more frequently with new animations and new interesting mechanics. (although I think beam needs a bit more kick than it has).
I'm OK with this. -
Quote:Gloom only helps to a point, not even Gloom can make up the gap on a combo like DM/SD for example. The combination of AAO & Soul Drain is just too powerful on the Scrapper for the Brute, even with Gloom, to compete.Beyond those two things I feel that Scrappers and Brutes are fairly well balanced. The extra hit points for Brutes is worth the damage difference.
(While Brutes have gloom their damage doesn't seem to be that much lower than Scrappers.)
Overall, yeah I agree that Scrappers & Brutes are fairly well balanced against each other. Each has a few advantages over the other depending on powerset combos. -
Quote:If you don't have endurance issues, I think Spiritual is a good choice for Fire/Fire/Fire.I actually went for the Spiritual alpha..that is the recharge one, right? That's the one I took..I figure it will bring up my heal faster, as well as Consume when I respec. I have to kee telling myself I am not a Stone tank in Granite, I am a fire Brute!
Once I get my head wrapped around that, survivability should increase for me...
Thanks for the replies!
Faster Healing Flames, Burn, FE, FSC, etc. -
Quote:This has probably been discussed, but searching didn't bring up anything for me and I wasn't in the game when SR got proliferated to tankers.
SD is something I know a lot about for tankers. It's easily softcappable and has some sweet bonuses on top of that which are well known and need not be listed.
So my question is, what advantages does SR have compared to SD? The most obvious thing is the ability to softcap sooner, but what about in the long run? Does it really shine with certain secondaries?
DDR is something to consider, but I've managed to become almost capped on my SD/SS tanker.
What do you guys think? What are your experiences?
I think, mechanically (concept aside), if you are going to be building with IOs that SD is easily the stronger option.
Softcapping is easy for an SD Tanker, and you can reasonably incarnate softcap to at least 1 or maybe 2 positions with some effort. You can incarnate softcap all three positions if you are willing to sacrifice some rech.
You get a huge +HP boost, very solid resistances for a set that is also softcapped and a usable T9 that can hardcap your SM/L resistances and push everything else into the 40-50% range (except psi).
On top of that you get one of, if not the, most powerful taunt aura in the game.
AAO's +damage component & Shield Charge are just icing on the cake at that point. -
Quote:I can't find my old post on this, but I had at one point proposed a change to Tankers which gave them a power similar to Domination in terms of how it was used. Called something similar to "Battle Commands," it built off of a Tanker's inclination to lead the charge.
Basically, Tankers get a bar that fills up as they are attacked, like a combination of Fury and Domination. When in the 90-100% range, Tankers can click on a new power that was an minor AoE team buff, but affected the Tanker with a stronger buff. While the team may get a decent recharge, EndRed and +DMG buff, the Tanker got a much stronger one. In this way, it would help the Tanker out while solo, but would also help them out on teams. Having two Tankers on the team would mean that they could alternate this buff, or stack it.
It's not a bad idea mechanically (kind of like Call to Justice), but please think of a different name and way to sell it.
The number of Tanker-is-the-defacto-leader players I run into while leveling is annoying enough without some in game mechanic giving confirmation to players who hold this utterly ridiculous belief. -
Quote:How small is small to you?As if Brutes didn't have enough advantages over Scrappers, chasing enemies all over the maps basically takes all scrappers except for Shield, Invuln, and WP out of play for me. Remember when people were concerned that Brutes would marginalize Scrappers when the sides were consolidated? That's basically what happened for me. Other than Shield, which is better on scrappers, I just make all my scrappers Brutes now. The small advantage scrappers have in damage just doesn't compare to large boost to survival Brutes have.
Some sets or combos, especially ones that can leverage musculature as well as persistent +damage boosts can see something like +20 to +30% higher ST DPS.
DB/Ela with musc for example.
This isn't to downplay your frustration, but the ST DPS difference can be pretty pronounced.
Whether or not you value it personally, is another story.
If you're focused on team play, and you're not interested in holding aggro - I think the Scrapper is just a better choice as a damage dealer.
Solo, I agree in that I stick to sets with Taunt auras for my Scrappers. Luckily, SD is probably one of the best sets in the game and it works very very well for Scrappers. -
I wonder if there will be a new thread on some variation of this theme this every week.
http://tinyurl.com/43fnznd -
Quote:It's not avoiding them that's the issue for me, its being forced to avoid being in melee range.Avoiding the pink (not blue) patches of death is fairly easy, I found.
My Corrs just hop around and hang back at range, being a force multiplier for a league of 12-24 people while blasting away. Basically, wildly more useful to any league than any 1 melee character could ever be.
My Melees have to run in and out of combat constantly and stand there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the patches to disappear.
Apex, Keyes, TPN, MoM - all of these have area denial tactics that basically penalize melee characters for the simple fact of being melees. -
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Quote:Really?I didn't mean that there was. I'm not a number grinder but there appears to be greater disparity between the damage of a Tank and Brute than there is between their survivabilty.
If you're serious about making a statement like this, I'd ask for you to sit down and mock up some simple comparison builds in mids.
Try WP, SD, Ela, DA for example.
Go ahead and build those, and look at just how much more actual mitigation the Tanker has.
SD for example, SD Tanker's can actually incarnate softcap to at least one or two positions while still getting about 40-60% Global Recharge.
They can have about 2800 HP to start, and can actually hit the Tanker HP cap with OWTS running (3500 ish). For comparison SD Brutes usually sit about 2400 HP and can hit about 2800 with OWTS (both require slotting Heal IOs in OWTS).
The tanker can sit around 40-50% SM/L res and can cap their SM/L resistances with OWTS. The Brute can barely hit the Scrapper RES cap of 75% with OWTS on most builds.
A lot of players just don't appreciate how much extra base mitigation the Tanker actually has. -
Quote:I think you're right, only two powers to really leverage the extra end mod won't be a huge difference.So, on a TW/Invul scrapper, how would agility alpha compare to cardiac?
On paper, agility seems far more attractive with the +recharge and the def which would put my 4 energy type defenses comfortably close to 45%, however with only stamina and PP being the only two endurance modification tools it probably won't save the character's blue bar as much as cardiac does.
I'm pretty sure for an Invuln that Cardiac will provide a better overall reduction in endurance consumption than Agility will provide in added recovery - and a boost to your resistances is always nice.
Still, with enough recharge you could get CP to about 50% uptime and agility will boost rech. -
Quote:My opinion is that you will have no choice but cardiac.Yep, TW/DA. Two massive end eaters. But DA is remarkably click free (just click once your heal), and allows for a slower pace of slaughter due to a non-end costing stun. TOE +END plus tons of recov ios can make up for cost of end. I see it being somewhat less clicky than elec, and getting more for its money out of +softcapped melee and 35%ish ranged def. If I have to, I can always just get cardiac.
On the Beta server I tooled around with a TW/WP Brute with QR, Stamina, Superior Conditioning, Physical Perfection, and T4 Agility Core - and I still ran out of end frequently. (That's 4 perf shifter procs, numi proc & miracle proc - QR & Stamina 3 to 4 slotted).
Granted I had 6 piece Obliteration sets in the PBAoEs (I wanted to see if it was sustainable, Oblits have +rech and +1.88% SM/L Def)
Now, if you have a low rech build, and you franken slot your AoEs with Eradications/Cleaving Blows (which isn't a bad idea, since energy damage is one of your weak points) - you might be able to get away without it - but I really think Cardiac is the best option here. -
A friend of mine got turned away from a team on his Fort because "we have too many melee".
Let that sink in a moment.
Some people, are just dumb. -
Quote:There is nothing to justify, they never attain Tanker level mitigation.Hi All,
So my question is "Where is the justification for Brutes and to a lesser degree Scrappers being able to deal alot of damage while being able to attain very good survivability while a Tank isn't allowed to build for damage?"
Quote:As often as people in this thread have thrown around that Brutes/Scrappers are effectively just as tough as Tankers because they still never die, it simply isn't true. It's not true at lower levels, and it's not true at the highest levels like Incarnate trials.
This.
Quote:The same cannot be said for tanking; there is a much smaller niche for tanking. Once someone is tanking, you don't need someone else performing it. A Tanker who wants to tank and is doing everything they can (solid build, good attack chain, utilizing Taunt) can have their threat surpassed by a Brute.
Its a catch 22 for both ATs.
Your scenario also assumes that there is only ever 1 target - a single AV.
Trials have plenty of adds, ambushes, etc - which not only creates space for multiple ATs to hold aggro but also creates space for multiple Tankers.
To be perfectly honest, I don't want any Tanker taking aggro from my Brutes because aggro is intrinsic to their Damage performance - I'm OK with the risk associated with it, it's pretty much the core of the Brute AT. -
Quote:I hate when that happens.I had a nice reply typed out earlier and the forum going down ate it... Grr, okay, let's try this again.
Thanks for taking the time to retype it all out.
I'm going to cut to the points I want to address.
Quote:It doesn't take the perfect situation for it to happen. To be clear, I'm not saying it happens all the time.
When IOs were first released, there were a lot of options available - defense included, but there were significant restrictions that prevented mass defense stacking. Over time, multiple changes were made to defensive set bonuses (positional / typed cross over, grouped type bonuses, stronger typed bonuses), more set bonuses were added, etc. This paved the way for more and more people to stack +def. At first, this was a boon for Tankers, who had bigger defense mods. Due to the non-linear nature of mitigation stacking, they could reap the rewards well. As things progressed, it got to the point where more and more people could soft cap - even sets with no inherent defense to begin with. The Tanker's larger defensive mods started going to waste.
I think you overestimate the Brute resistance sets ability to hit the softcap for the most part.
I will agree that +DEF buffs are common for sure, and there are definitely enough +DEF bonuses to be had to softcap every Brute secondary (even if I think that is often detrimental to my performance standards).
Some things to think about:
Yes the Brute can build for defense, the Tanker always does it easier. This means more room in the build for more rech, more +HP, more recovery, etc.
I have another point, but I'll save it for your next one.
Quote:Then came Incranate Abilities. First was Cardiac with its resistance enhancement, but Resilience (I think?) is coming and it's even stronger. There is also Destinty to consider, for example Barrier's persistent +def/+res.
Incarnates also brought outlier damage types to the forefront.
It also brought us massive spike damage.
All three of those play to the Tanker ATs strengths (depending on primary of course), not the Brutes (at least not without buffing).
Cardiac is definitely a huge boon for Brutes, its pretty much my defacto Brute alpha slot. It shores up Res and the end recovery is pretty much a godsend to a go-go-go play style fueled by high EPA attacks.
I really doubt you will see many Brutes going Resilient. It's there, I've tried desperately to see if it made sense on any of my builds, but it doesn't.
Even with all of this, I think it pushes at most 3 Brute secondaries into very powerful resistance categories: Invuln, DA & Ela. However the Tanker numbers are still vastly superior.
As I said before the outlier damage types have moved into the prime time. This brings Tanker base Resistances & Tanker base HP into play IMO.
Quote:Also with Incarnates came Leagues. This brought more buff/debuff potential to bear. It was, however, limited as I doubt buffers would spend time buffing the entire league. Since then, buffs were changed to be AoE. This means that it doesn't even take as much effort by the buffer to apply it to people outside their team. Just stand in a large group, and there is a strong chance buffers will focus their attention there. (I know I tended to on my Kin. And do note that it was a huge QOL change for buffers. I'm not saying that it wasn't justified, just the consequences of it.)
+Resistance
+HP
These two are always scarce.
I'm not trying to thump my chest with this, but I have run something on the order of 12 characters to all T4s.
Most of them have 30 to 60 EMP merits stored up.
Some of them have alternate T4s just for fun.
A few of them have as many as 8 to 20 unused Very Rare salvage with nothing to use them on.
I have easily run over a thousand incarnate trials at this point, I run BAF, Lam and Keyes nightly. (If I had to take a rough guesstimate, I think it would be about 1200-1300 trials)
In my opinion, and my experience, Resistance buffing even after the changes is very rare.
Enough resistance buffing to put the average Brute to their resistance cap is basically nonexistent.
The only time I see it regularly is BAF because there are 24 people in a long tank and spank fight and often quite a lot of Barrier. This depends on the league of course, as some leagues have low level incarnates with no Destiny at all.
Keyes & Lambda are the opposite. They require a lot of movement and small team targets. Its not often to be heavily buffed on either of these trials.
Quote:These little changes, by themselves, aren't bad. It's their cumulative effect. Brute Invuln, for example, never used to be able to hit the Scrapper res cap, let alone the Tanker one. These changes are pushing them closer and closer to being able to hardcap s/l permanently. Does everyone build that way? No. Is everyone IOed/"purpled" out? No. I'm not daft.
We're only halfway through the Incarnate system, though. I don't see this trend reversing.
Perma DP Brutes will be sitting about 3K HP, Perma DP Tankers will sit 3500.
Quote:Anecdotally, I can't remember ever seeing Gauntlet sway a mob against an AT with taunts. Taunt? Yes. Taunt + Damage? Yes. Gauntlet? Never.
Against an AT without taunt effects? It doesn't matter because they're trivially easy to hold aggro over.
Getting back to you, Deus, as you can see, your assumption is faulty. Tankers do not have the advantage in AoE threat. Tankers are at a threat disadvantage compared to Brutes. Honestly, the one thing that Tankers have over Brutes is an AoE -range debuff rather than single target.
I stand corrected.
In which case, I think increasing the strength of Gauntlet a bit to bring it closer in line for better overall threat generation.
Which is to say a bit different from just increasing Tanker threat across the board. (which I disagree with)
I also think adding a simple movement speed decrease to gauntlet might be interesting. This emphasizes the Tanker's "stickyness" and their control aspect, without being yet another force multiplication power like bruising.
Quote:No, my frustration is multi-faceted:
*) Brutes can deal more damage than a Tanker. Cool, they're supposed to be between a Scrapper and Tank.
*) Brutes can tank. No biggie.
*) Brutes stack better than a Tanker. Damage rarely goes out of style and Bruising doesn't stack. Ookay.
The rest will not be at their peak.
A Brute that does not hold aggro and deal damage should have been a Scrapper instead.
That's probably an extreme opinion, but it's how I feel.
Quote:*) Brutes can hit Tanker survivability numbers. (Some easier than others, be it builds, teams, etc.) This is progressively getting easier. Err...
But its potential, not a baseline and it's not consistent.
Quote:So, Tankers have higher defense mods, otherwise they really don't have anything going for them over a Brute.
I'm putting various mock up builds together in anticipation for TW.
I've built both Tanker and Brute TW/ELA builds for comparison.
I can't get the Brute past 1800-1900 Hp and meet all of the other needs I have.
The Tanker sits at 2400+ HP and is softcapped with ease, tons of rech, room to spare.
The Brute has around 60% SM/L res, the Tanker is at 80%.
The differences are a lot larger than people make them out to be.
Quote:(For the record: I have been turned down from Incarnate trials because they didn't want/need another Tanker. BAF no less...)
To be honest there are a lot of times I'd like to turn melees away period (I don't).
Most trials are overflowing with superfluous levels of melees.
People really need to play more support. -
Quote:I took a break from my Claws/EA scrapper to make a WM/SD brute the other day. I had a lot of fun cracking things with my mace, but waiting for a button to mash was killing my buzz.
Is there something else I could pair with /SD to get the same WM feel without the WM recharge blues? Does the pace pick up later on?
I'd rather not play SS/SD, since I'm already playing an SS/FA brute with a buddy.
What would you suggest?
Warmace picks up a bit later on, once you have both Whirling Sword & Crowd Control (especially crowd control).
Until then its going to feel sluggish.
As far as smashy sets, its SS, WM & SM for the most part. BA has KD but its not going to be any speedier than WM.
StJ is pretty fast and has some KD, but it's pretty hard to beat SS, WM & SM overall for smash-factor. -
Quote:- Fire/ Corrs are great Although if you spend a lot of time playing a /Fire Defender you might not want to play Fire/ again any time soon.
Couple of things.
While Defenders do get Fire Blast, they don't get Scourge.
The OP has a Fire Blast defender, but its Force Field - not a debuffer, and not a debuffer with Scourge.
It wouldn't take much to get a feel for the difference either - you can roll a Fire/Dark Corr and have Tar Patch, Rain of Fire and Fire Ball...by level 6.
I was on an ITF last night watching my RoF hit for 9 damage per tick, +a little reactive...and then it began to Scourge. -
Quote:I
Some people may not come across taunting brutes "on their server" but on other servers some people have brutes with taunt as a set mule and use it on an AV with gusto, compromising the rest of the PuG.
I'm not sure if this is directed at my last post or not.
Let me clarify, since I should have been clearer anyway.
I see Brutes who actually take Taunt, they're among the minority of Brutes that do but there are definitely Brutes that take it (myself included).
What I meant was I don't see Brutes who just spam taunt repeatedly. I see a lot of Tankers do this, I see enough Tankers do this so often that it feels like an epidemic.
When I say "taunt spamming" I mean literally that, hitting Taunt as often as it recharges or something nearly as ridiculous.
In a situation like that, I think most Tankers will be able to pull aggro off of any Brute that is not simultaneously taunt spamming.
This is my experience from nightly trial running on Freedom & Virtue - two servers with extremely different player cultures but also very highly (the two highest?) populated.
Quote:Originally Posted by New DawnI play my Brutes as Tanks, if a Tank isn't redirecting damage away from team or a team doesn't make use of safe standpoints. I might as a Brute try to make the situation safer, this is why I would still prefer Tankers to have to work at taking aggro from a Brute.
You're stating very clearly here that some Tankers, or more correctly some players, are unable to understand fundamental things like AV positioning and that this has nothing to do with someone playing a Brute specifically. -
It looks like you don't have a L50 Fire Blast Corr.
This would be my first recommendation.
I really love my Fire/Dark, Fire/Time & Fire/Rad Corrs.
The Fire/Dark is probably the most survivable, with the best combination of control/debuff (and a pet).
The Fire/Rad is great when I just want to focus on shooting more than anything, and when I want to profit from my teammates deaths. Good times.
The Fire/Time is a very strong build, but its also pretty busy overall. Its probably the most well rounded of the 3 but the somewhat longish recharge on Slowed Response is a little irritating at times.
If you just want ranged damage without the support, but you're having a hard time getting into a Blaster - you might try a Dominator.
Fire/Fire is a very fun, high damage build.