Deus_Otiosus

I'm not convinced they actually need a buff.

I think a lot of players take their massive base mitigation for granted (or downplay it), underestimate their melee contribution in relation to that mitigation (even though they aren't high end damage dealers) and assume that every situation will be fully saturated buffs to the caps.

So, basically a pointless "buff" for Brutes since none of them could ever actually hit that cap.

Good start.


On top of their mitigation, it's too much.

We have Buff/Debuff ATs already, and they aren't gigantic sacks of un-killable HP.

And if you buff the Brute defensively to the point where their base mitigation matches a Tanker's, then their offense will need to be nerfed to compensate.

I never want to see that happen.



IMO Tankers are already too survivable to add buffs and debuffs to the AT. They don't need this.

This game is not World of Warcraft.

This game doesn't require any AT to get any content done.


Having specific ATs for things, just makes some of those encounters smoother or easier.


Case in point - I've run wildly successful (read: surprisingly smooth & fast completion) all VEAT BAFs & Lambdas, not an aggro holder in sight.


What you seem to want is to push this game and its ATs more towards WoW and less like CoH, my opinion is that this is an absolutely horrendous idea.

That might be true of Brutes and Scrappers, but not Tankers.

Tanker SD is generous enough in base defense that you don't really need to focus on all that much positional defense slotting.


It also gets an amount of resistance & +HP built in that no amount of chasing will ever help SR.


So maybe some recovery, regen and some more recharge.


Here's a high end SD/DM/Soul Tanker build.

I think it would be pretty hard for an SR/DM/Soul to get more out of the overall package than this build does.

(Take note of the staggering 3K HP before using OWTS)

First I don't really agree with Ultimus' proposal for a lot of reasons.


On the other hand, I think whatever the canonical roles were when CoV came out is a thing of the past. I think at least Synapse sees it this way as well.

While that was discussing Stalkers, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think it wouldn't be applicable to Brutes & MMs and their original design intent.

Seeing as Brutes now have a Taunt aura in every one of their secondaries, including Regen, I think its pretty safe to say that they are clearly intended to hold aggro.

Whether or not that is only part of the definition of tanking and how much it represents is another matter.

Gloom only helps to a point, not even Gloom can make up the gap on a combo like DM/SD for example. The combination of AAO & Soul Drain is just too powerful on the Scrapper for the Brute, even with Gloom, to compete.

Overall, yeah I agree that Scrappers & Brutes are fairly well balanced against each other. Each has a few advantages over the other depending on powerset combos.

If you don't have endurance issues, I think Spiritual is a good choice for Fire/Fire/Fire.

Faster Healing Flames, Burn, FE, FSC, etc.

I think, mechanically (concept aside), if you are going to be building with IOs that SD is easily the stronger option.

Softcapping is easy for an SD Tanker, and you can reasonably incarnate softcap to at least 1 or maybe 2 positions with some effort. You can incarnate softcap all three positions if you are willing to sacrifice some rech.

You get a huge +HP boost, very solid resistances for a set that is also softcapped and a usable T9 that can hardcap your SM/L resistances and push everything else into the 40-50% range (except psi).

On top of that you get one of, if not the, most powerful taunt aura in the game.

AAO's +damage component & Shield Charge are just icing on the cake at that point.

It's not a bad idea mechanically (kind of like Call to Justice), but please think of a different name and way to sell it.


The number of Tanker-is-the-defacto-leader players I run into while leveling is annoying enough without some in game mechanic giving confirmation to players who hold this utterly ridiculous belief.

How small is small to you?

Some sets or combos, especially ones that can leverage musculature as well as persistent +damage boosts can see something like +20 to +30% higher ST DPS.

DB/Ela with musc for example.


This isn't to downplay your frustration, but the ST DPS difference can be pretty pronounced.

Whether or not you value it personally, is another story.


If you're focused on team play, and you're not interested in holding aggro - I think the Scrapper is just a better choice as a damage dealer.

Solo, I agree in that I stick to sets with Taunt auras for my Scrappers. Luckily, SD is probably one of the best sets in the game and it works very very well for Scrappers.

It's not avoiding them that's the issue for me, its being forced to avoid being in melee range.

My Corrs just hop around and hang back at range, being a force multiplier for a league of 12-24 people while blasting away. Basically, wildly more useful to any league than any 1 melee character could ever be.

My Melees have to run in and out of combat constantly and stand there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the patches to disappear.

Apex, Keyes, TPN, MoM - all of these have area denial tactics that basically penalize melee characters for the simple fact of being melees.

Always good to take it a little slower on a MoM.

Really?

If you're serious about making a statement like this, I'd ask for you to sit down and mock up some simple comparison builds in mids.

Try WP, SD, Ela, DA for example.

Go ahead and build those, and look at just how much more actual mitigation the Tanker has.

SD for example, SD Tanker's can actually incarnate softcap to at least one or two positions while still getting about 40-60% Global Recharge.

They can have about 2800 HP to start, and can actually hit the Tanker HP cap with OWTS running (3500 ish). For comparison SD Brutes usually sit about 2400 HP and can hit about 2800 with OWTS (both require slotting Heal IOs in OWTS).

The tanker can sit around 40-50% SM/L res and can cap their SM/L resistances with OWTS. The Brute can barely hit the Scrapper RES cap of 75% with OWTS on most builds.



A lot of players just don't appreciate how much extra base mitigation the Tanker actually has.

I think you're right, only two powers to really leverage the extra end mod won't be a huge difference.

I'm pretty sure for an Invuln that Cardiac will provide a better overall reduction in endurance consumption than Agility will provide in added recovery - and a boost to your resistances is always nice.

Still, with enough recharge you could get CP to about 50% uptime and agility will boost rech.

My opinion is that you will have no choice but cardiac.

On the Beta server I tooled around with a TW/WP Brute with QR, Stamina, Superior Conditioning, Physical Perfection, and T4 Agility Core - and I still ran out of end frequently. (That's 4 perf shifter procs, numi proc & miracle proc - QR & Stamina 3 to 4 slotted).

Granted I had 6 piece Obliteration sets in the PBAoEs (I wanted to see if it was sustainable, Oblits have +rech and +1.88% SM/L Def)

Now, if you have a low rech build, and you franken slot your AoEs with Eradications/Cleaving Blows (which isn't a bad idea, since energy damage is one of your weak points) - you might be able to get away without it - but I really think Cardiac is the best option here.

There is nothing to justify, they never attain Tanker level mitigation.



This.




And if you're a Brute and someone else is tanking you should have made a Scrapper instead.

Its a catch 22 for both ATs.

Your scenario also assumes that there is only ever 1 target - a single AV.

Trials have plenty of adds, ambushes, etc - which not only creates space for multiple ATs to hold aggro but also creates space for multiple Tankers.



To be perfectly honest, I don't want any Tanker taking aggro from my Brutes because aggro is intrinsic to their Damage performance - I'm OK with the risk associated with it, it's pretty much the core of the Brute AT.

I hate when that happens.

Thanks for taking the time to retype it all out.

I'm going to cut to the points I want to address.


I think you overestimate the Brute resistance sets ability to hit the softcap for the most part.

I will agree that +DEF buffs are common for sure, and there are definitely enough +DEF bonuses to be had to softcap every Brute secondary (even if I think that is often detrimental to my performance standards).

Some things to think about:

Yes the Brute can build for defense, the Tanker always does it easier. This means more room in the build for more rech, more +HP, more recovery, etc.

I have another point, but I'll save it for your next one.


Incarnates also brought us a new softcap number to reach, with only 1 melee AT able to actually consider building for it in any seriousness.

Incarnates also brought outlier damage types to the forefront.

It also brought us massive spike damage.

All three of those play to the Tanker ATs strengths (depending on primary of course), not the Brutes (at least not without buffing).



Cardiac is definitely a huge boon for Brutes, its pretty much my defacto Brute alpha slot. It shores up Res and the end recovery is pretty much a godsend to a go-go-go play style fueled by high EPA attacks.

I really doubt you will see many Brutes going Resilient. It's there, I've tried desperately to see if it made sense on any of my builds, but it doesn't.

Even with all of this, I think it pushes at most 3 Brute secondaries into very powerful resistance categories: Invuln, DA & Ela. However the Tanker numbers are still vastly superior.

As I said before the outlier damage types have moved into the prime time. This brings Tanker base Resistances & Tanker base HP into play IMO.




I agree in terms of most buffs, but not the two critical ones that truly separate Brutes and Tankers at this point in the modern game:

+Resistance

+HP


These two are always scarce.



I'm not trying to thump my chest with this, but I have run something on the order of 12 characters to all T4s.

Most of them have 30 to 60 EMP merits stored up.

Some of them have alternate T4s just for fun.

A few of them have as many as 8 to 20 unused Very Rare salvage with nothing to use them on.


I have easily run over a thousand incarnate trials at this point, I run BAF, Lam and Keyes nightly. (If I had to take a rough guesstimate, I think it would be about 1200-1300 trials)

In my opinion, and my experience, Resistance buffing even after the changes is very rare.

Enough resistance buffing to put the average Brute to their resistance cap is basically nonexistent.

The only time I see it regularly is BAF because there are 24 people in a long tank and spank fight and often quite a lot of Barrier. This depends on the league of course, as some leagues have low level incarnates with no Destiny at all.

Keyes & Lambda are the opposite. They require a lot of movement and small team targets. Its not often to be heavily buffed on either of these trials.



On the other hand an Invuln Brute will have lower defense numbers to build off of for damage beyond SM/L, and a harder time building for both defense and recharge.

Perma DP Brutes will be sitting about 3K HP, Perma DP Tankers will sit 3500.






I stand corrected.

In which case, I think increasing the strength of Gauntlet a bit to bring it closer in line for better overall threat generation.

Which is to say a bit different from just increasing Tanker threat across the board. (which I disagree with)


I also think adding a simple movement speed decrease to gauntlet might be interesting. This emphasizes the Tanker's "stickyness" and their control aspect, without being yet another force multiplication power like bruising.

That depends, only one Brute will get to reap the rewards of holding aggro and therefore higher Fury.

The rest will not be at their peak.

A Brute that does not hold aggro and deal damage should have been a Scrapper instead.

That's probably an extreme opinion, but it's how I feel.


Can and Do are the operative words here. I think a lot of dedicated Tanker players are often put off by the Brute's potential.

But its potential, not a baseline and it's not consistent.




I think that underplays the dynamic of higher base DEF + RES + HP.

I'm putting various mock up builds together in anticipation for TW.

I've built both Tanker and Brute TW/ELA builds for comparison.

I can't get the Brute past 1800-1900 Hp and meet all of the other needs I have.

The Tanker sits at 2400+ HP and is softcapped with ease, tons of rech, room to spare.

The Brute has around 60% SM/L res, the Tanker is at 80%.

The differences are a lot larger than people make them out to be.




To be honest there are a lot of times I'd like to turn melees away period (I don't).

Most trials are overflowing with superfluous levels of melees.


People really need to play more support.

Warmace picks up a bit later on, once you have both Whirling Sword & Crowd Control (especially crowd control).

Until then its going to feel sluggish.

As far as smashy sets, its SS, WM & SM for the most part. BA has KD but its not going to be any speedier than WM.

StJ is pretty fast and has some KD, but it's pretty hard to beat SS, WM & SM overall for smash-factor.

Couple of things.

While Defenders do get Fire Blast, they don't get Scourge.

The OP has a Fire Blast defender, but its Force Field - not a debuffer, and not a debuffer with Scourge.


It wouldn't take much to get a feel for the difference either - you can roll a Fire/Dark Corr and have Tar Patch, Rain of Fire and Fire Ball...by level 6.


I was on an ITF last night watching my RoF hit for 9 damage per tick, +a little reactive...and then it began to Scourge.

I'm not sure if this is directed at my last post or not.


Let me clarify, since I should have been clearer anyway.


I see Brutes who actually take Taunt, they're among the minority of Brutes that do but there are definitely Brutes that take it (myself included).

What I meant was I don't see Brutes who just spam taunt repeatedly. I see a lot of Tankers do this, I see enough Tankers do this so often that it feels like an epidemic.

When I say "taunt spamming" I mean literally that, hitting Taunt as often as it recharges or something nearly as ridiculous.


In a situation like that, I think most Tankers will be able to pull aggro off of any Brute that is not simultaneously taunt spamming.


This is my experience from nightly trial running on Freedom & Virtue - two servers with extremely different player cultures but also very highly (the two highest?) populated.



So what you're saying here is in effect what I was saying in opposition to your earlier comments in the thread.

You're stating very clearly here that some Tankers, or more correctly some players, are unable to understand fundamental things like AV positioning and that this has nothing to do with someone playing a Brute specifically.