Deus_Otiosus

Because Fire Farms in AP and CAP are all the rage, where morons charge people 8-15 million per PL-Farm run and even bigger morons pay those prices to be PLd.


At the OP: SS/FA is all over the front page, please try the scroll wheel on your mouse for instant win.

You'll have to forgive most of the more serious posters who really could care less one iota about which build is the most epic for farming stuff, because epic farming is an oxymoron - especially when there is a post on this like every two hours.

Since you've gone and done this, I will now be forced to go and test with several Brute primaries (they have varying recharge capabilities too).


It makes for interesting reading though.


Isn't that what Scrappers and Tankers get by default?

They have no inbuilt mechanics that throttle their performance. Scrappers deal damage consistently, crits can be factored into DPS.

Tankers perform at their higher Def & Resistance numbers consistently.

Brute performance however always relies on the dictates of Fury - which is subject to team comp, encounter composition (i.e. hopping around in the BM encounter instead of being able to just stand still and DPS).

It is lessened now as you said, but the variable and "downside" exists.


You're going off of Silas' 70% vs. an immobile target vs. my 80% max in the center of a spawn with full aggro. This is on a top end build that has AAO, is spamming Footstomp every 5~6 seconds, and Dark Oblit every 9-10s. I toss around a taunt or two for hard targets or when Tommy The Taunt-Bot thinks he needs to save me.

I think a fair number of players, and powersets will see that number drop even further - say 60%? (My WM brute is not built nearly as well as my SS/SD, he is forced to hang back on some occasions and WM is slow, like molasses uphill in July slow - he is usually around 60-70%)

At the top end, the only end I care about, how far of a performance drop is acceptable when some else is tanking before the Brute simply loses completely to a Scrapper who gets to deal 100% of their already superior damage all of the time.


I don't disagree completely - and for general gameplay no one will ever care or notice (I'm sure 90% of the player-base probably thinks my ideas are not only delirious, but irrelevant).

My personal theory is that the Brute's peak is already lower than the Scrapper's peak. A peak which pulls out further and further ahead the more +damage you add.

If the Brute loses the damage game so completely to the scrapper, and loses the tanking game to the Tanker on the team (who the brute is supposed to "cooperate" with, allow to them to take aggro for big important fights while the brute also accepts a damage performance loss in doing so) the Brute then serves a mediocre role on the team.

I don't sign up for mediocre.

It's an extreme opinion, but it's mine. So I will not be relinquishing aggro duty to any tanker on any Brute I have built for teaming (i.e. not dying while killing stuff in droves) - because if I do, I simply can't justify playing a Brute when I could be dealing better damage on a Scrapper while also handling "off tank duties".



I just want to add the caveat that I don't think Brutes are mediocre, I think they are amazing. But this requires them to be making the best use of both of their roles (which is actually one role), soaking aggro and dealing damage.

And regardless of my opinion, I appreciate the discussion with both of you.

I took my FM/SD Brute to test once, and gave it a full top end build with purps, glad unique, you name it.

Best I was able to manage was 240-250 DPS, with gloom, which was seamless. The Brute DoT and Gloom do nothing to come even remotely close to what AAO does for a Scrapper.

The Scrapper wins.

I just wanted to come back to this, I'm going by Bill Z's numbers here (at the top end of builds)


Scrap Martial Arts
DPS 165.4

Scrap Broadsword
DPS 154.8


I'm not sure Broadsword is really going to give you want you're looking for, if what you are looking for is ST DPS (or WP for that matter).

If what you're really looking for is to "drop stuff faster" than you do now, you really do need to choose a Secondary, and even a primary, that has more AoE damage output.

I might suggest FM/SD - but my first suggestion would be to post your MA/SR build and see if people can't help you tweak that build first.

I don't expect them to expressly take a backseat, but watching them waste their time to taunt AVs off of me that I am in no danger from is not some uncommon occurrence (when I'm on a PUG).


I agree. A lot of the PUG tankers I meet seem to do this anyway.


Given equal build investment and equivalent sets, the Tanker will always be significantly sturdier than the Brute.


If the Tanker gets to the fight first, and begins taunting like mad. Yes.

Otherwise, Brutes generate higher threat per target through damage combined with their threat mag and any secondary effects they bring.


This is my main beef. I play on Freedom, so maybe that skews things (I just like Silas' guides, so I popped in to comment).


Brutes exist to deal damage, they do this through aggro. Attacks alone, especially with the current Fury throttle cap, is simply not enough.

You can, and will generate higher fury and therefore higher damage with more incoming attacks.

Fury, is largely a competitive mechanic. it's just the nature of it.

If you're on a Brute, and you are not generating high damage through Fury and someone else is Tanking and has the vast bulk of aggro - you should be playing a Scrapper instead.

The Scrapper will be doing more damage, consistently and without regard to how much aggro they have. They will also benefit from team +damage bonuses more than the Brute will.


Brute's are the only melee AT who are rewarded, mechanically, for generating threat. The only thing that comes close are auras that grant benefits when the user is surrounded, which is not the same thing.

I think the difference would be more like 40-60% base damage (20-30% Fury).

On the times I've hung back a bit, I usually end up with something like 50% Fury as opposed to 80% Fury.

That's 60% base damage, which is almost like never turning Rage on, or never using BU - which no one would advocate doing whether it is a "blip on the radar" or not (and it's not always a blip on the radar btw, only with Fulcrum shift).

Besides, if 20% base damage isn't a blip on the radar, Silas should start endorsing Defenders over Corrs.

If you're saying, that Silas said, that Tankers should work to cooperate with Brutes so Brutes can deal optimal damage - then I suppose I missed it in his post.

I'll let you quote that part to me later since I seem to be hard of reading.

Instead what I read was,

Brutes are frequently wrenching aggro off of Tankers by kicking orders of magnitude more anus.

And it helps the team, by stuff being dead faster.


What I posted was that the Tanker should re-prioritize, and what is written there states that the Tanker should have aggro.

Brutes exist in a state of competition for aggro. Having aggro helps both the Brute (making them punch harder) and the Brute's team (keeping them from being punched hard).

Not all Brutes are designed to hold the lion's share of aggro; but the ones who are, do not require a Tanker to "save" them and there is no reason for such a Brute to specifically relinquish aggro to a Tanker in such circumstances.


Brutes and Tankers can co-exist on the same team (it's not a myth!), but it often requires a bit of ego-swallowing on both parts and often the Tanker's in particular.

Brutes that can handle the aggro they generate should be left to do so, they also tend to focus on dealing damage, because they can.

Tankers in this instance should re-prioritize, and focus on gathering excess aggro that can spill onto the squishies - especially in hectic AV fights (let's say end of the ITF, or end of LGTF) the endless waves of lower tier enemies are often the greatest threat to the support crew as opposed to the AV who will most likely be totally locked down by any competent melee engaged with said AV (if they aren't already debuffed into jelly)

All it takes is a robust or two for sets like Invuln, or WP.


@OP: If you had asked BS vs. WM I might have been able to make a strong case for Warmace. But I think on the whole, BS is a much better set than BA is.

You're still missing the point, your endurance consumption on the build is still too high.

Unless you are supporting this character with a /kin or /rad with well slotted AM or something.

And you should always properly slot QR at the barest minimum, not slotting QR and just tucking a perf shifter in there is a mistake.

QR is not physical perfection, it's better than Stamina. Slot it.

Then use Cytos.


The lower recharge number is less than 4%, which meant an huge increase in recovery, increased SM/L and better slotting overall.


Your first build will most likely bottom out.

Mids links act funny for me, I cant utilize anything but the data chunk.

Claws/Elec should be a solid combo.

Some tend to skip Grounded, I would suggest picking it up for the status protection and because it makes a nice 1 slot wonder for the steadfast unique if you decide to slot that.

SM/WP is definitely a good combo for leveling solo.

And Praetoria can be rough for pretty much any powerset, most enemy groups pack a wide variety of damage types or status effects.

They're not really the greatest cones, and the damage is not really that high (several other sets easily compete if not having better damage outright).

FA is a good set, its not as good as WP for leveling.

BA is definitely not the choice I would pair FA with for a player looking for a smooth solo experience from 1-50 that on primarily SOs.

And BA/FA is not something anyone would say has any real "shine" in the endgame.



Willpower.

Has a total package of status resistance.

Better vs. Psi (fairly common while leveling redside)

Extra HP

Fast healing & RttC by L16, neither of which are dependent on ACC or Rech. QR by L20.

Gives you both defense and resistance.

And WP is pretty much the poster-child powerset for (quote from the OP)

"I'm looking for a set that starts to shine without being fully IO'd out at maxlevel with all epic powers :3 Basically something that will be soloable and fun in the 22 - 49 range."

I cant endorse that combo for someone who wants to solo, and is looking for an smooth ride while levelling.

At the OP:

You can find nearly the same discussion in
This Thread.

I'll quote what I already said there.

1-2 End Rdx in your attacks on a straight SO build is pretty much a must have for a Brute.

Let Fury be your Damage enhancement.

If you are willing to go beyond SOs, some cheap frankenslotting is your best bet.

Rage is without a doubt useful for leveling, still the crash can be punishing at low levels - even for WP.

It's fine if you're prepared to deal with it, but as a returning player I was looking to suggest what I thought would be the smoothest ride to 50.


Even after 32, you've got footstomp which is one PBAoE on a base 20s recharge.

Claws on the other hand can have Spin, Eviscerate and Shockwave by that point - all of which are on 12-14s base rech. Spin you can have by L6, with FU to increase your to hit & damage by L8 - and no rage crashes to deal with.


Don't get me wrong, I love SS. I have a handful of SS Brutes that absolutely I swear by. It is, hands down, my favorite Brute primary.

But after leveling so many of them, and leveling a Claws brute - I think Claws is the smoother ride to 50.

I'll touch on this in response to a different quote.


I generally dislike stuns, especially on Brutes. The fear and the stuns are part of what has given DA a bad rep for brutes - they constitute a good portion of the survivability that DA is capable of, but enemies that are so frozen and unable to attack make for poor fury or at least they did for old fury, which would be frustrating to maintain in that situation - this is why Brutes don't have Ice Armor, not sure why the logic died there.

The new Fury makes it much more useable as a survivability tool, but I still prefer to simply have built-in mitigation or less mob neutralizing tools like KD, which gives more of a "breathing room" type of mitigation in comparison to stuns or fears.

That's I went for Darkest Night, skipping oth OG & CoF on my DM/DA/Soul brute.

DC means being able to run DN with no issue.


I find the redraw detrimental if you are trying to include an outside power seamlessly into your ST attack chain.

Even then claws has "redraw lite" in comparison to BA or WM.

For something like adding two TAoEs worth of extra damage, the redraw penalty is minor IMO.

You're still most likely doing more AoE damage overall after you factor the redraw (due to the number of targets), and it also gives you yet another tool for a Brute - being able to attack, and therefore aggro, 16 opponents at an 80ft range in a 15ft radius is very useful for my style of play.

I run

MG > Gloom > Smite > Siphon > Gloom > Smite

So that's two activations of smite and two activations of gloom.

IIRC I have a small 0.5s gap on the second gloom while hasten is running.

Just checked mids, and it looks like you're correct. 1.8 KB Mag.

Its funny because I used the KB to my advantage leveling up my Claws/Invuln (way back when) but then I dropped it in favor of ball lightning and e-fences at l50