Comicsluvr

Um, wasn't I10 supposed to have some luv for Bases? Or is it possible that all of that got washed out in the Riktiki press and it'll be 'stealth content'?

Um...don't mean to rain on anyone's parade but I thought I10 was going to include some luv for Bases too. Possible that the Riktiki announcement just smothered other good news?

I heard that someday Pistols might be a Corruptor set. Much with the hoping that the set includes one (and only one) Melee attack. Yeah, you can smack a person with a Pistol now...with Brawling which is about as lame as they come.

Of course I'm also the guy who advocated the Pommel Strike be added to the Ninja Sword set. I mean the animation is already done how tough could it be?

Personally I voted for Growth because if they can get that one worked out it may lead to Shrinking and Stretching.

I like the idea of the IO sets as they allow for a new level of customization for characters. I'm a nut for choices, replayability and so forth so I like that.

I also love the fact that most of my alts that are not worried about IO sets right now will never be hungry again lol! I have a lvl 8 Blaster with over a million Inf from the sale of one item! Most of my alts below the teens have over 100k Inf and can afford regular DOs and SOs for a long time.

However, there are still no new Powers, no new ATs, gear for Bases still costs too much and there is long and growing list of QoL changes that have not been addressed like server transfers, easier communications with Contacts and Brokers and so forth.

As much as the mad scientist in me likes crafting stuff I'd trade it all if we could make up a list of 25 nit-picky QoL issues and get them done/fixed.

I still maintain that it should be a player's choice as to whether to make a single Nuke-type Power or a string of lesser Powers.

Base Damage can be the same as it is currently for existing Powers that are already balanced. Like if I want a Martial Arts attack that looks like or acts like Storm Kick. Okay so I get the Storm Kick animation to start with and 3.7 Smashing dmg with a Recharge time of 6 and an End cost of 7. This should cost like 1-2 Build Points until I add stuff to it.

Scale this versus Nova with something like 5 times the damage but a Recharge of 360 and an End cost of 20 which should burn up quite a few Build Points but then you could tweak it a bit.

I suggest this because I could see the Signature Power for a Martial Artist being a series of attacks from a specific Form or something.

Just a thought...

I have yet to see a clear answer as to why Teleport distance doesn't scale by level the way all of the other Movement Powers do. Heck even Sprint scales by level IIRC. Meanwhile Teleport:

Costs more to move than all other Movement Powers combined. It's the only Movement Power I have to slot for End Redux.

Cannot be adjusted for distance without teleporting against a surface. You either have a target surface or you go the full distance...period.

Cannot be safely used in mid-air even by a skilled player if there is a lot of lag present. My lvl 29 MM uses it as his only mode of transit. Currently I switch on a Raptor or Goldbricker Pack before teleporting in the air for safety. Later on I will get Hover.

Teleport needs fixing. The Teleport Distance should scale with level. The Hover component should be longer at the end and broken if the character moves. The target reticle needs to be adjustable for distance with a mousewheel or button commands.

Just to bring it up to par with all of the other Movement Powers.

This is copied from a thread I was interested in for a new Base addition called Monitor Duty. It ties in with RP so I decided to copy it here as well:

Proposal for CoX improvement we currently call Base Monitor.

Overview: This upgrade would enable a single character to assume the role of Base Monitor and use special Base equipment to aid teams of characters in the field. Aid could come in the form of simple information, calling for outside assistance, gathering and organizing the team and emergency evac teleports to name a few.

Specifics: In order to assume the role of Base Monitor a character would have to be present in a Base where the necessary Monitoring Equipment has been installed. Clicking on this equipment would open another window (likely full-screen but not necessarily) from which the character could perform Monitor Duties.

The initial piece of Monitoring Equipment would be relatively inexpensive and draw little power but it's capabilities would be very limited. Initially the Monitor would be able to see the map of any zone the base has active Teleport beacons to. From these maps he would be able to send and receive communications in Broadcast, Team and SG channels as well as tels. He would also be able to facilitate the forming of teams by use of a Team Searching / Looking for Team roster. From this roster he could send information to various characters on teams awaiting other characters or looking for teams. Any characters in the SG whose Base he was Monitoring from might have additional information at his disposal such as mission preferences ('Don't like tunnels') and personal messages ('No PLing').

Once a team was formed they could elect to maintain contact with the Monitor or not. If they did then at the end of their mission he would receive the Mission End bonus or at least a fraction thereof for his efforts. If the team elected not to remain in contact there might be an option to Trade with the Monitor so the team might gift the Monitor for his time gathering the team.

If the Monitor maintained contact througout the mission then he would have several abilities granted to him based on how good the Monitoring Equipment was and possibly tied to the Monitor's level as well.

The initial Monitoring Station might enable the Monitor to see the mission maps as the team clears them and communicate to the team. This could facilitate searches, lost or down teammates etc.

Upgrading the Monitoring Equipment might enable the Monitor to (in no particular order) do the following:

See a small portion of the map not yet cleared by the team.

Activate ally Buffs and/or enemy Debuffs that could be defined as hacking the mission location's power systems, security, lights and so on. These Buffs and Debuffs would be small (on the order of 5%) but they would stack with the team's existing Buffs if any.

Call for outside assistance in the form of one or more groups of allies (PPD, Longbow, Arachnos, etc). Such assistance would have a time delay to arrive and a time limit on-site to prevent abuse. The typical level of the reinforcements would be dependant upon the level of the Monitoring Equipment (better is good) and the Difficulty setting of the mission. They're intended to help out...not do the mission for the team. Think of the Thug MM Power Gang War.

Teleport downed team members back to the base even if there was no Resuscitate Ring in the Base (as long as there was an ative Teleporter to that zone). The character would arrive unconscious and need to be revived by established means (Inspirations, Rez Powers, etc). Alternately a VERY expensive and sophisticated Base upgrade might enable the Monitor to use a form of Teleport Other to send the downed team member to another (cleared) point on the map such as where the team has gathered to heal up. The top end for this gear would be a system whereby the character gets Teleported to the Base, has a chance to rest and refill Inspirations and can then be sent BACK to the mission instead of having to travel back.

The possibilites for this are virtually endless. The benefits are many and range from added Base use to faster team assembly to the ability to add a 'ninth man' to the team.

The range of players that could benefit is also very wide. Tactical team experts could utilize the Team Roster function to quickly and effectively gather teams. RPers could enjoy the RP aspects of being the Base Monitor or from being on a team with a 'big brother' watching over them. Players that might have trouble finding a team could list themselves on the roster instead of spamming the Broadcast with LFT messages. If any of the Monitor functions were tied to the Monitor's level then the higher-level characters, especially 50s, could participate in missions in a whole new way. Even soloists could benefit if they wanted to do the 'one-man tac-ops' type of mission with the support guy on the radio feeding the guy in the field intelligence.

With the addition of some sort of voice-comm (teamspeak, Ventrillo) the Monitor could be an invaluable asset to the team. This could also tie-in to Inventions since some of the Monitor upgrades could be invented. There could even be a Monitor Duty badge awarded for so many hours or missions spent on Monitor Duty.

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This, my friends, is pure genius. This is like 10 pounds of awesome in a 5-pound sack. Seriously.

Addressing the concern over a sort of Signature Power Respec, could it be included as an option during a normal Respec? Like, after you've done everything else, the game would ask you if you want to change your Signature Power, or just leave it alone.

Let me toss in a suggestion: How about the option to tie SigPowers to one of a character's ordinary powers? That would, for the most part, take care of the animation, although additional effects may be added. My idea is that, when you used the Signature Power, it would also count as using the ordinary power, so they'd both have to recharge. The ordinary power would recharge at its own speed, based on Enhancements, buffs, etc., while the SigPower would recharge according to how many points you put into it. The SigPower would use the normal power's abilities as a base, and it would cost points to tie the SigPower to a regular power -the cost would be determined by the regular power, so a Tier 9 would cost more than a Tier 1. Nukes and Moment of Glory powers might have other restrictions.

Instead of spending points on damage and accuracy,a tied SigPower would have its points go into buffing the base power's abilities, and can add different damage types.


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I like this idea. Might help to get the initial Sig Power idea up and running and then it could be built on later.

Wow...this is what I was looking for. Short, sweet and to the point. Thanks for all the effort.

Once Inventions goes live I'm gonne be spending a lot of time on the test server...

Wow Scrap...most of the negative things I've said about Inventions will be trumped (not invalidated...just trumpted) by some of the stuff you put here and you Six Slot Health guide. The number of different ways you can slot Powers to get the same (or better) benefits sounds like it's going to be enormous.

Let me know if you need help compiling data...I have more free time than most.

I consider myself an avid yet casual player and I want to see the numbers. I say avid because I've been into superhero RP games since Champions and V&V all those years ago. I say casual because for the first two months or so I didn't bother to visit these boards. I wanted to experience the game for myself...to learn things on my own. I still avoid spoiler posts for that reason.

However 10 years in Quality Assurance has made me doubt the abilities of others. This is not any kind of a slam on the Dev's abilities. I'm not a computer programmer or game designer and I'm sure their skills in these area dwarf mine and always will. But the devs are human and make mistakes just like the rest of us.

I originally came to the boards because my very first character, a Blaster, was having trouble leveling in the early teens. It was then that I discovered MANY things that board-goers consider common knowledge.

No, you don't NEED to endure the Hollows. Just visit the Contact there and then head to King's Row.

You didn't run your first 6-8 levels in the Sewers? It took you HOW long to get to lvl 10? You got your Tough Badge (100k of damage sustained) HOW early? Wow...

Yeah, the first few levels can be kind of a drag, until you get a temp movement power that is. What do you mean 'Huh?' You DON'T know about the temp movement Powers? You've been using HOVER to cross the Hollows? Wow...

And my all-time favorite: Why do you Hover all the time in fights? Oh you slotted Hover for Defense! Why? No, the Def bonus is NOT 15%. Yeah I know that the mouse-over says TOs are +5% Def each...oh you slotted 3 of them? Ok...let me explain how this REALLY works...

Before the veterans here begin a bunch of finger-pointing and suggesting that EVERYONE knows that the Def bonus from Hover is actually the bonus to the BASE and not a raw number let me add that I'm a 40 year-old writer with a college degree who reads everything in-game as it comes up. Now no offense but if I didn't figure it out then a bunch of others won't either.

Not long after this last eye-opener I found the link to ShirkSilver's character planner and laid out my Blaster as he was. Now I'd figured out ED (or something like it) by just looking at the values as things were slotted. Ok...third one not as good as the first two...got it. Whoa...fourth one is a big drop...no sense in messing with that. I'll slot End Redux instead and move on. Shirksilver's planner revealed how my build was almost totally borked IMHO and no wonder I was having trouble leveling post-9 in the world of debt.

Oh btw I discovered the wonderful world of DOs not from the game anywhere but from another player. He noticed that I was lvl 11 and cued me in. I believe that the leveling message at 12 mentiones DOs but I'm not sure. Needless to say about ten seconds after I dinged 12 I was off to Cooke's for a set.

I read somewhere that an estimated 10% of the player base comes to boards. Wow...10%...I wonder what the rest of the players do? Well based on personal observation some of them leave in frustration. I teamed with a lvl 17 Blaster and the player was bemoaning how tough everything was on Diff 3 (I always forget the names sorry). I asked him if he had all of his DOs slotted (because several of my alts couldn't afford full sets at 12) and he asked what a DO was.

During the double xp weekend I gathered about a dozen of my friends together on temp accounts to play hoping that we could all form a SG like our Champions days of old. About half made it past lvl 10, those that didn't citing all of the 'stupid running around' and 'lack of in-game information' as their main reasons. I was on for most of the weekend just to answer their questions because I didn't want to send them to the boards on their first day to look for stuff that all of us felt should be available from the game itself somewhere.

So today I hit my 6-month veteran mark and more than ever I want to see the real numbers behind the game. Why? Because of all of the rumor and innuendo flying around about how this works or that works. I saw somewhere that Insps are not actually giving the listed bonuses. Do I believe the source? The OP had a post count in the mid-4 digits and while several others responded no one refuted him. So now who do I believe?

No, as much as I love this game there have been enough mistakes, misunderstandings and (IMHO) downright bits of misinformation to shake my faith in much of the information out there. Now I want to see what the real values are...not some reverse-engineered figure.

Were it not for the flubs and mistakes I would slavishly believe everything the game tells me. Now that I know that I can't I want to see for myself. To those who say that releasing the figures will destroy the immersion got news for you: The Immersive players won't come looking for it. They'll go merrily one enjoying the game as they always have.

But me...I want to see some numbers.

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To the OP: My apologies if I upset you but I'm used to working with people much less insightful than you are and as a result I like to see my information laid out in captain-dummy talk. I reread your posts and the information was indeed there...I was just accustomed to having the pertinent stuff closer to the surface.

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That's a perfectly valid criticism of my post. But I think the main reason I was irritated by your responses is that I feel like I am being threadjacked. General discussions about whether the Inventions system is too confusing or whether it's worth your while to test it out belong somewhere else.

As for the "captain dummy" talk, I am considering starting a new thread where I simply lay out the upgrade decisions as I outlined in my last post, and point interested readers here for a discussion of why.

- Protea

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You are absolutely right and I apologise. Your thread is not the place for my discussion as it is only connected by the fact that they both Involve Inventions...pretty thin I will openly admit.

Sorry for the threadjack. I fear your original post has been irrepairably damaged by my rant. I look forward to a new thread and promise to keep things on-topic.

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I love your assumptions 1 through 3... And you how you create from whole cloth not only an excuse for why you can't be bothered to test on Test, but provide yourself with an ongoing series of excuses whereby you can explain away why you cannot test inventions for yourself.


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I am NOT here to cry doom all over the place based on wild conjecture and assumption.

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The funny part is how you claim this - yet proceed to do so anyhow.

You still haven't bothered to learn the basics of the invention system. You still cannot explain how the invention system will 'blow up'. You still mistake quantity for quality.

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Ok...let's try this from the other side of the coin for a change. Stop making this all about me and make it about someone else...how about you?


Have you been to the Test server since I9 went to open test?

Have you bought or sold ANYTHING at the AH or the BM?

If so, what was it and how much did you get/spend?

Did you do this with real funds that you would have to play in real time on a real server to replace or did you use copied funds that will still be there after they're all spent?

Given that others (maybe not you...) have already admitted that they're spending more on Test than they would on Live do you think that the prices that you bought and/or sold at were an accurate reflection of the Live game prices?

If so...why considering that anything spent on test is not really gone?

If not...then why are you bothering with it in the first place?

How LONG did you play on the Test server? Four hours? Eight hours? Did you use one character or several? How much Inf did you have going in and how much did you have coming out (scratch that last one...answer is the same amount!)?

The ONLY thing I can see testing for right now is whether or not the basics of the system (buying, selling, trading, bidding etc) work and the drop rate. I see no reason why I should waste my time debugging something when others are obviously better qualified to do so and checking the drop rate is STILL only a tiny sampling of the entire system.

In order for me to get a good sampling of how well the system works for me I would have to play the same way that I do on Live. Frankly I don't think it will take another 2 months for I9 to go live and that's how long it would take for me to play each of my characters a full day's worth. Then, after all of this, there is STILL the issue of the admittedly inflated prices!

So I should go to Test, play my Brute for a day, sell the unwanted stuff at whatever the market will bear which, at the moment will be grossly inaccurate and misleading, buy the few things that I might want at prices that may ALSO be grossly inaccurate and misleading and then go back to Live? Please explain to me in the name of all that's sensible and holy how this is supposed to show me ANYTHING except how often stuff drops (in the 33-35 range only thank you) and that people will pay stupid amounts of Inf for something when they know it's not really gone?

As to the explanation of why the system will blow up? I think I covered that rather well. I'll reiterate for those skipping from the beginning of our little debate to here:

The Devs don't like surplus Inf in the system.

Not everyone will want to participate in Inventions.

Those that don't will still wind up getting the various drops.

Some of these drops will be rare recipes and/or salvage that others will covet. This coveting is the whole principle behind the idea of 'rare.'

Some players will sell the unwanted loot to those covetous players willing and able to shell out the Inf. I have no idea how much this will be (and even if you've been on Test neither do you by the way...) but even if it's only 10K that's 10K of Inf that that character did not have before. Read that as '10K of Inf that the Devs might not WANT you to have.'

IF the systems performs as I expect even a little the end result will be that those characters with tens of millions of Inf MAY only wind up with five million Inf. Meanwhile those at the low to mid range of the spectrum MAY wind up with tremendous amounts of Inf. Even if this happens and the Devs move to correct it they cannot do so immediately because the prices will be unstable when the whole thing starts out and might settle down to their own reasonable levels. However if it doesn't then the Devs will be forced to tweak it somehow which MAY upset more than a few players who will have spent how many weeks or months working with the system and getting used to it. And even IF the system gets tweaked into a proper framework the furious first weeks or months will STILL generate extra Inf (again, nobody knows how much...) which the Devs STILL don't want characters to have.

The Devs have been surprised before. The reaction/use (lack of use) of Bases surprised them. The way SGs were used to generate Pres (far less than they anticipated) surprised them. The lack of converting Inf to Pres probably surprised them. I'd lay good money that the number of players hero-side using the Sewers to avoid the first 5-6 levels of content continues to surprise them. The fact that a single character could or would amass ten or hundreds of millions of Inf seems to have surprised them. The rediculous AV regen rate surprised them. Players being able to take down Hamidon often enough to refer it as farming surprised them. I'd be willing to bet that the reaction to Dr Brainstorm's ill-fated I9 press release REALLY surprised them!

None of this is conjecture or supposition. Much of it has been said in interviews and the rest is as obvious as the sun on a hot day. None of this is crying doom.

Now given the previous track record for being surprised, coupled with the sheer level of complication involved with Inventions (not the crafting process, I mean the economic side of things), can you honestly say with any certainty that this little financial experiment WON'T blow up?

As I see it the problem is predicated on perception: The devs see gross amounts of Inf as being a bad thing. I can't peer into their minds to see why but they do and that's that.

If the fact that much of the wealth in the system was at the top end (lvl 40 and above) is what bothered them then I could see Inventions as being the beacon of hope for them. Those that already HAVE piles of Inf might be inclined to spend it to buy Invention-related stuff that they either can't get (they out-leveled that content), don't want to grind for ('I need HOW MANY of those to make my sexy new stilletto rocket boots? Forget it I'll buy them...') or just plain like spreading the wealth around ('Gee, did a costume contest every day this week. How else can I give away Inf? Oh yeah...I'll pay too much to my friend's character for that last Cape piece I need.').

However this isn't the case IMHO. The Devs don't want to redistribute the weath from the top-down or else they'd make everything under lvl 15 or so dirt cheap and everything above 40 or so exorbidantly expensive. What they want to do is pull Inf OUT of the system. The problem is that Inventions may NOT accomplish that as fast as it can be re-injected by the high-levels who farm for 100k Inf an hour. And even IF the Inf drains like water from the system so that 6 months from now the prices are where the devs pictured them what happens after all of those 40+ leveled character get everything they want? Well history tells us that they may go back to doing what they did before...earning Inf that they will either horde or inject into the system through an alt somewhere.

I'm not saying that Inventions is bad. I'm not saying that having too much Inf is bad. I'm not saying that the Devs trying to remove Inf from the system is bad.

I'm saying that the way that they hope to do it...through the Inventions system...IS bad. I'm saying that I predict that Inventions will not WAD and then the Devs will try to fix it so that it does and that, in the treatment of the patient, they may kill him instead.

IMHO the fluid dynamics of a free market economy coupled with 150,000+ highly creative players is too volatile a situation to be controlled and should never even be attempted.

I pray to lots of comic book deities that I'm wrong...

Sorry it took me so long to get there folks...I'm a Gemini...

Thank you for your support Kension...it's appreciated.

To the OP: My apologies if I upset you but I'm used to working with people much less insightful than you are and as a result I like to see my information laid out in captain-dummy talk. I reread your posts and the information was indeed there...I was just accustomed to having the pertinent stuff closer to the surface.

The reasons that I have avoided going to Test to try out Inventions for myself include but are not limited to:

1) I have no 50s with millions of Inf. My highest character is a lvl 33 Brute with something like 0.75 million Inf horded against the coming lvl 37 SO buying frenzy.

2) I have absolutely no desire to glimpse into a mock-up filled with over-inflated prices from wealthy characters out trying to kick the system's tires. This will NOT give me anything like a fair, educated idea of how the system will work. What it WILL do is give me a good idea of how Inventions would be if Inf could be endlessly copied and never run out. Live play doesn't work that way so I don't see the point.

3) The Test server will also only give me a limited idea of the range of drops over a typical play period (say a day) for the characters that I copy there. I have something like 50 characters across 4 servers...I should copy them all to get an accurate idea of how Inventions will really play out? No wait...over-inflated prices because of the Inf-copying thing...right. So even if the system looks good for 1-2 characters for a day that does NOT mean that it will work for everyone in the long term.

I am NOT here to cry doom all over the place based on wild conjecture and assumption. I really like CoX. Since I started playing it has become my third largest time-consumer after sleeping and writing which means I play a LOT. Even though I'm not a 3-yr vet like some of you or a serious MMO-player like others (this is my first in fact) I don't feel that I need to be in order to see certain things.

A) The Devs feel that there is too much Inf in the system. Even if they never admit it in so many words the numerous ways that we have to remove Inf from the game is evidence enough IMHO. Why else would it cost 250K to alter your costume? Why else would they restrict Inf trades to 100K until I9 and not allow simple ways to transfer Inf from one player-character to one of his alts without a third party? At the lowest levels of the Invention system the largest expense in the Crafting cost. Why? Because it can't be recovered in any way. Enhancements, salvage, even whole IO sets can be bought, sold and traded but the Crafting cost comes out of the system and is gone forever.

B) Not everyone is going to like or want to participate in Inventions. It has been touted as being totally optional from the start and I think that that is a major selling point. You don't HAVE to craft one thing to play...but you'll still get the salvage and the recipes through standard drops. If you don't want them what do you do? Benevolent (or wealthy) characters may simply give the stuff away or sell it so cheaply that they might as well be doing so. Others who want the Crafting badges and such might turn into misers and horde everything and that's fine for them. But the fact is that a new way to make money is being added to a game where the Devs obviously feel that there is too much already. I don't see this as being bad but I have a hunch that the Devs might.

C) As I stated before the Devs have admitted to being surprised by players before. Anyone who has ever run a RPG can recall countless times where their pool of 4 or 5 or 8 players did something that threw them. It may not happen all the time...it may not happen often...but it DOES happen. This game has how many people on the Dev team...20? There are 170,000 accounts representing (I'm guessing) over 150,000 players in this game right now. Given the fact that the Devs have been surprised before what are the chances that it can happen again? Pretty high IMHO.

When I9 goes live the Inf trade window will support values in the billions. Why did the Devs expand this window unless they felt that it would be needed for some reason? Either they feel that some characters are going to have billions of Inf (which they don't seem to want) or they believe that something somewhere in the game will cost a billion or more Inf. Now assuming that my Brute has 10 million Inf by the time he hits 50 (just grabbing a round number here...) why on earth would he NEED the ability to carry or trade a billion Inf?

My fundamental problems with the game are as follows:

I don't think that costume pieces should have ever been tied to vet rewards or badges. To me this not only interferes with concept characters but also creates an air of eliteism in the game.

'Look! I have the thing that you can't have until you've played another two years!'

I don't think that costume changes should cost as much as they do. Of all of my characters two have more than one costume and those involved free costume badges. After Inventions comes out and I craft the few items I want then that's it for me. But others love the character generator and the costume shops and have admitted to spending hours there 'shopping for new clothes.' I feel that the costume shops are simply another way to draw Inf from the game...another way to keep poorer characters from doing something fun.

I don't think that the auction houses/black market should exist in their current form because for some they will generate surplus Inf...something the devs don't want. If they don't want it then they are going to try and fix it...which might make the problem worse since by then it will have been live for 3 months, the interested players will be used to the system and the disinterested ones will have the surplus Inf already.

I strongly believe that the Invention salvage and recipes should have been designed to be bought and sold at the AH/BM as just another store with set prices for everything. This way the Devs could have direct control over the prices as well as the supply. I believe that the AH/BM system, with prices driven by the players, will make the rich a little poorer and the poor a lot richer...not exactly WAD.

IMHO the Devs should have made the Inf situation a non-issue right away by simply making a ceiling on the amount a single character could have. I have been told that a complete change-out of top-end SOs for a 50 can run something like 3 million Inf. Okay, that being said why would a character have or need more than 10 million Inf ever? If the Devs had capped Inf at 10 million per character then the hundreds of millions or even billions of Inf in the system now that they fear so much would not exist.

Another, much more useful Inf-sink would have been Bases IMHO. The exchange rate of 2000 Prestige for 1 million Inf is rediculous. I would like to see if anyone ever used this feature since it was put in. If not then the Devs should have seen right away that it was broken and tried to fix it. They did not and so it sits unused.

In order for an exchange rate to work it has to be fair for both parties on some level. Trading $100.00 bill for 5 $20.00 bills is a wash...no loss or gain. Paying $50.00 for a $60.00 radio that actually cost the vendor $20.00 and is the last one in the store works for both sides. The buyer feels satisfied that he got a good deal and the merchant both makes money and sells the thing that may not have moved for 3 months. Paying extra for something now versus waiting a few days is fair because to some the time difference is well worth the difference in price and that's their choice.

A glance by any highschool Business student would have revealed that the Pres/Inf exchange rate was flawed. The only way any player is going to exchange Inf for Pres is if he REALLY needs the Pres for something or if the rate seems pretty fair. The former is not likely to happen since there is no time-pressure in building a Base usually and the player can just do missions for an hour for the 2000 Prestige. However even a 50, IIRC, would be hard-pressed to earn 1 million Inf in an hour. Since the time investment is uneven nobody used the system. A few simple questions would have revealed the flaw: Even if I could trade 1 million Inf for 2000 Pres would I? Would the system work the other way i.e. what if I wanted to trade 2000 Prestige for 1 million Inf?

The second one would have closed the issue right there and then.

IMHO the exchange rate should be something on the order of 10-1...10 Inf for 1 prestige. If I had a 50 with 10 million Inf I could give it away or trade it to an alt (which horrifies the Devs) or I could convert it to 1 million Prestige and build a Base. Not a huge base...not a grandiose sprawling fortress...but a nice little Base.

I've gone on way too long already but I wanted to make it clear that I am NOT some nut on the streetcorner saying that Inventions will end the world because I don't like the way it works. Rather I feel like an objective analyst looking at some sort of financial/social model and seeing a trend that I don't like.

My biggest fear is that the players will do exactly what the Devs are not expecting and that the resulting action by the Devs may crash the whole thing.

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There...how's that?

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Not much better. You still haven't learned even the basic of the Inventions system, and you still don't specify why you think the system will 'blow up'.

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You're right. I decided to try a different tactic and ask what I think are pertinent questions and cut out all of the doom and rambling and unsupported statements.

You know...concise...

Now, leaving off all of the previous assumptions of the system blowing up, how about answers to the questions? Or are you just flamebaiting?

PS: As for learning the basics of the Inventions system, I'm asking the easy questions that may crop up through the normal player base. I think someone once estimated that 1% of the players come here looking for information. I'm looking for it and not finding it. Is this information covered, accurately and in depth, in the Tutorial? Because about 99% of the game population won't have gone to test before I9 hits. So are they not allowed to ask questions either? Just how much of this information will be readily available in-game?

There...you see? Another question...

Does anyone have a link to the Inventions tutorial? Searching for it brings up the hero and villain game tutorials and about a thousand posts containing the word Inventions...

Ok...concise...right...


Why are the Devs so terrified of piles of surplus Inf lying around? I can use it to help my friends and alts have nicer clothes and better Enhancements but since there is a finite ceiling so what?

Why does the crafting cost start out at double the recipe cost and wind up being equal to it? It seems to me that a simple linear progression would be best. Why juggle the numbers at the higher levels?

Summon Zombie Horde has the Unquestioning Loyalty series of IOs. The first IO gives the Zombies a Dmg and Acc bonus to the tune of 21% while I can slot Dmg and Acc to 33%. The difference (12%) is more than I can recover with Leadership. So why on earth would I slot Unquestioning Loyalty other than to save one slot?

Also, slotting the entire Loyalty set (no set bonus which is why I chose it) consumes 4 slots and gives me less Acc and Dmg than I would get from slotting 2 SOs for each. But the added component is End Redux...why?

I have heard that IOs will never wear out. The Dmg IO that I slot at lvl 10 will still be good for the same Dmg bonus at lvl 50. Granted...a lvl 50 IO would grant a higher bonus but it would also cost more. So at what point does a single IO give the same bonus as a basic, even-level SO? Using Dmg as an example will there be a single IO that will give me +33% Dmg as a single SO will now?

Although the Trade has not yet been implemented the last time I checked the Inf trade window has been expanded to now hold numbers in the Billions. Do the Devs honestly think that their new system will drain THAT much from the economy? Oh btw can't that same character go back out and do it AGAIN? If so what's the point? What part of the Invention system will require me to spend a Billion Inf?

There...how's that?

Wow...and I thought I was a numbers junkie!

I do have some questions though (years in Quality Assurance but with no Stat Analysis training...sorry):

Why did you put a Remaining column for yout TCO chart? IMHO simply showing the TCO of 285,465 would have been sufficient. Sorry to nit-pick but at first glance it was a little confusing.

I believe that the Devs have raised the crafting cost vs the cost of the actual recipe because they're trying to drain excess Inf from the system and crafting is like labor on your car...it's a non-resalable value. I can sell salvage, I can sell a recipe but I can't sell a crafting cost.

Here's my question: Why are the Devs so terrified of piles of surplus Inf lying around? The best Enhancement that you can buy is +3 so the best that a min-maxing powergamer will get is...+3. If +3 is the absolute ceiling for anything and there are other ways to remove Inf from the game like the Costume Shop, what's the harm in my lvl 50 whatever (I don't have a 50 yet...example) having 10 million Inf? I can use it to help my friends and alts have nicer clothes and better Enhancements but since there is a finite ceiling so what?

Why does the crafting cost start out at double the recipe cost and wind up being equal to it? It seems to me that a simple linear progression would be best. Why juggle the numbers at the higher levels?

From what I've seen on some of the IO spreadsheets available from outside sources most of the basic, non-set IOs actually give a lesser effect that an SO slotted for the same thing. Example: Summon Zombie Horde has the Unquestioning Loyalty series of IOs. The first IO gives the Zombies a Dmg and Acc bonus but only to the tune of 21% while I can slot Dmg and Acc to 33%. The difference (12%) is more than I can recover with Leadership. So why on earth would I slot Unquestioning Loyalty? Is it THAT much cheaper? I doubt it given the rest of your chart. And I'd rather spend the one extra slot than have to take the 12% hit tyvm.

Also, slotting the entire Loyalty set (no set bonus which is why I chose it) consumes 4 slots and gives me less Acc and Dmg than I would get from slotting 2 SOs for each. But the added component is End Redux...why? I do now know of a single MM player that slots Summon Horde with End Redux...none. I have never seen a Zombie run out of End nor am I likely to. So now the Devs are trying to make Unquestioning Loyalty look shiny and new but attaching an End Redux rider on it like some cheap bill in Congress? Someone please explain it to me...

Another question and this is the real burning one for me...I have heard that IOs will never wear out. The Dmg IO that I slot at lvl 10 will still be good for the same dmg bonus at lvl 50. Granted...a lvl 50 IO would grant a higher bonus but it would also cost more. So at what point does a single IO give the same bonus as a basic, even-level SO? Using Dmg as an example will there be a single IO that will give me +33% Dmg as a single SO will now?

I DO see a benefit in slotting things that normally fall by the wayside as characters advance like Sprint and Rest. Slot an IO in there at lvl 10 and it's good for life. But this seems pretty small return for what might be a pretty large investment in time to get it.

I forsee problems with Inventions that I have NOT seen addressed yet.

1) It will be complex. I don't care if the tutorial is an hour long and complete with glossy colored photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph written on the back of each one...it's going to be complex. New players will be overwhelmed. Relatively new players will have to go out-of-game for relavent information and become fed-up with the number crunching. Players will either ignore the system or leave in frustration.

2) Ah...ignoring the system. Inventions has been touted as totally optional. But when everyone gets Invention salvage and recipes through drops they cannot ignore them. They will have to find a way to get rid of them...like selling them. I can see this as a new form of income for those that will only dabble in the system or will 'ignore' it as they level up their character is the same old way and occasionally get that rare piece of salvage or that rare recipe that they don't want. Look...going rate for this is 100k on the market. Ok...I'll sell mine at 95% of the market price (free money since I found it lying around right?) and voila I just got 80+K after the listing fee! Now I'll rush right out and buy my shiny new lvl 25 SO...just like the Devs didn't seem to want me to do...

3) Although the Trade has not yet been implemented the last time I checked the Inf trade window has been expanded to now hold numbers in the Billions. Billions...ok...now I've heard of characters with Billions of Inf...even spoke to one who claimed to have several Billion Inf...but what in all the name of Holy heck is gonna be so expensive that I might have to actually SPEND a Billion Inf?! Do the Devs honestly think that their new system will drain THAT much from the economy? Oh btw can't that same character go back out and do it AGAIN? If so what's the point?

I am NOT trying to knock Inventions. I haven't been on the Test server because I don't want to see some artificially inflated prices from players with millions of copied Inf to throw around. I want to see what the actual prices will be. I'm eager to see some of it and find out what it holds for some of my concept characters (like wings!). But I am NOT going to be hooked into my machine for 20 hours straight trying to figure it all out. Some of my alts may wind up farming lower-level stuff for my favorite characters. Fine as far as I can see. Some of my characters will want some of the new shiny and that's fine too. The Devs have now laid a groundwork that they can expand upon with LOTS of new ideas for Powers, costume pieces and all sorts of stuff and I think that all that is great.

But I think it will all go terribly wrong...and I'll tell you why...In the meager 6 months that I've played I've seen I8 roll out (with 3+ month's worth of bugs thank you) and seen I9 on the horizon. I've also read that the Devs were surprised at how SGs and Bases were used (or underused in the case of Bases) by the players. Apparently they're also surprised that in a world where you can spend 3 million for SOs and half a million for a simple costume that there would be characters with tens or hundreds of Millions of Inf lying around. I also read somewhere that the Hamidon Raid was changed because the players found out how to take the most difficult battle in the entire game and farm it for (relatively) easy HOs that they can accumulate to make their 50s even more powerful. We players seem to surprise the Devs a lot...

I think that we're going to do it again with Inventions too. For the first few weeks there will be the typical feeding frenzy as those with piles of Inf pour it into the system to buy the stuff that they want but either cannot find or are too lazy to look for. Then the market will settle down and people like me will begin to come out. People like me with piles of salvage and recipes because I have lots of time on my hands and log way too many hours a day. People like me who want a pair of wings there, maybe a set of Rocket Boots, and then that's it for a while. people like me who have no problem selling at or below the market price just so my lvl 22 Brute can stock up on shiny new SOs and forget the other stuff.

I think that the system will have a resounding effect on the players at the far extremes of the system. I see the rich getting poor (by buying what they want instead of looking for it) and the poor getting rich (through selling the occasional rare piece that they find through casual play).

IMHO Cryptic has made a big mistake in opening Inventions up to a free market economy. They SHOULD have had markets where you could buy and sell salvage and recipes at set prices...even very high or very low ones. This way the items most desired by the 40+ers could be made pricy enough to drain the evil excess Inf from the game and the reward for the occasional rare gem that my lvl 14whatever finds is more in line with his level so he doesn't become wealthy over night. This would also enable them to fix the prices at the lower levels at a point where characters at lvl 15 and below can actually get some of the neat but unbalancing stuff to get a taste.

Sorry to have droned on too long but I sincerely feel that Inventions might blow up in the Dev's faces and make what they wanted to change worse.

I agree that after a while I statred doing them just for the travel power.

Then I started getting other temp Powers like slightly increased speed, a self-Rez, stuff like that. Now that makes it more interesting as far as end result but they could be a little more interesting, both Mayhems and Safeguards. For instance:

You hit a Mayhem and SOMEBODY ELSE steals the money before you can get there! Now you have to chase down villains/gangers while being shot at/chased by cops, Longbow and heroes! Talk about mayhem!

On the other side how about the occasional Safeguard where they hit the armored car before you can get to the bank! Now you gotta chase them down...no chance to stop them in the bank!

Btw I'd reccomend dropping the little side missions from these types of things. Wayyyyyyyyy too hairy otherwise...

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5. Don't post again.

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Of all of the flames, names, curses and junk I've read on these boards for some reason this struck me as being absolutely the rudest comment ever. Even if everything else you said was true (and not saying that it was one way or the other) this one statement completely invalidates your opinion AFAIC.

Further comment withheld to prevent ban...

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Am I the only one that already has a headache from Inventions?

Sounds far too complicated to be fun or exciting to work with at all.

Read the guides and still lost, none of them were particularly helpful but given what we know that's not unexpected.

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No...I'm beginning to hearken back to my wonderful days in Oblivion when I was trying to figure out which enchantment fit best on which weapon or armor piece without wasting space.

There's a thread running right now regarding unlocking the slots. Just from what I've read since Dr Brainstorm's ill-fated I9 press release I'm thinking that such action is more and more needed. It sounds like Inventions are going to be SO easy to mess up that if we have to do trial and error some players are going to be steamed if/when they make a mistake.

Heck, I read somewhere that the Epic ATs were set as unlocked by a 50 because they were complicated to build and play. If they think that was complicated then Inventions is going to be a nightmare IMHO.

I have a request: Could we edit a page-1 Post to include Ebon-Angel's proposed price list? It seems that that is the working list for now but having it get buried back in the thread makes it tough to find. Just a QoL issue...

Now that I've read the entire thread again (whew!) I want to make some suggestions and comments (of course):

I see no problem with the base recharge at 1000 seconds. It's an established figure in the game and obviously a limiting factor to prevent abuse. If we're working on a limit of 20 points per sig Power then I think we should cap any specific effect at 10 points (max lvl for damage). This would also give a limit of 150 feet (yes, I think something changed from yards to feet somewhere), the same as Sniper Powers are now.

As to recharge times, I think that 1 point equals -50 seconds works. This means that a straight damage sig could be lvl 5 damage (extreme) with no other effects, Melee range, full End (I think 20 is the baseline now) and a 500 second (once every 8.3 minutes). This keeps the math simple and doesn't seem to break the system IMHO since you could only get this high at the coveted 50.3 level.

However I think (unfortunately) that the Devs will try to scale damage based on type (less resisted = lower damage cap). I personally don't see this as a necessity since the recharge time is very long but they may not see it that way. Psi is almost unresisted and they may not want an Extreme Psi-based attack. Toxic is the same way.

Also, I think that Immob and Hold should be priced differently since enemies can still attack with the former and they can't with the latter. Perhaps Hold is twice as expensive as Immob?

I also like the option of several smaller sig Powers over one large ones. As I mentioned before I see one 'sig attack chain' as the same as 'one big sig power'. I can see my MA/ Scrapper with 3 sig attacks in his chain, each with a different effect. Not sure how others feel about this and input is always accepted.

More later...

Good question and one that I think we need to touch on. I was thinking that if we took one Power that it would be in the 6-8 teir range. I don't see this as overbalancing because everyone can get the same thing at the same rate. I realize that we can't just build a raw damage Power and get a tier-9 Nova but then that wasen't the point anyway.

Other thoughts along this line now that it's been brought up?

I like the idea of choosing between one uber-power and getting several lesser ones. This whole game is about making choices, sometimes tough ones, but I really like this notion.

Most of my MMs wouldn't take an uber-Power. They'd select stuff to enhance their pets.

My Blasters on the other hand? Oh heck yeah! Megawhomponyou Blast charging as we speak!

My Defender (if he ever gets that high...) would likely take something to buff the team because that what he does...whether it's one big Power or several smaller ones I don't know.

To me 'Signature Power' can just as easily mean 'Signature attack chain of my own Powers.'

True...the mark of a truly good idea is how to make it work. Whether or not it's desired becomes moot when people stop saying why and start asking how?

I like the idea as amended to small things picked up over the course of time. So many builds are so tight now and I see too many chances at abuse if some of these were slottable.

As earned, inherent abilities on the other hand I like the idea. You could try a few (those that appeal to the widest player base) to start and then add more later as the system gets tweaked. I could easily see your base ideas to start and then another one with each new Issue.

Good job...shall we start a comprehensive list of the ones we want then?

SIG POWERS GOT STICKIED!

Gratz dude...seriously this is so awesome!

All that being said I think we're on a good track here. I have to confess that even though I love the idea of multiple Sig Powers many aspects of the game are about choice so I'll settle for 1 Sig Power per character.

I love the idea about accumulating a few more points after hitting 50. Just a few...to add the last touches of 'epic-ness'.

I missed a couple of pages...do we have a solid, workable list of effects? If so I'll just reread the whole thread.

Wow!