Analysis of Basic IO Costs [long]
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2007-04-20 09:58 in The Market and Inventions
Part II
This post will analyze the current cost of the TO/DO/SO upgrade path and compare the resulting total cost of ownership with never-expiring Invention Origin enhancements. Starting from some basic design goals and the existing upgrade economy, I will derive suggested total costs for common Invention Origin enhancements.
Note that I have not looked at what common IOs actually cost; I deliberately did this calculation before looking so that I would have an unbiased outlook.
I know that others have posted on this, but the calculation is so long I thought it needed its own thread. Lemur_Lad can snowflake me all he wants 
I. Groundwork
Power curves
The power curves for common IOs and TOs/DOs/SOs are quite different. While IOs gradually increase in power with level, the current system (with required upgrades every 5 levels) gives a sawtooth pattern. Power bumps up at levels 2, 7, 12, etc, then gradually decrease. For each of the three domains of this graph (the TO, DO, and SO domains) the average value of this sawtooth function is a constant.
It is possible, though hardly common practice, to bump up the average value of the sawtooth by refreshing enhancements twice or even three times per 5 level period. We will use the cost of this uncommon practice in comparing costs with IOs at some of the mid- to high-level upgrade points.
Terminology
First, for a given enhancement slot in a given power, we will call the cost of investing in enhancements for that slot over the lifetime of a character the total cost of ownership (TCO) of that slot. For TOs/DOs/SOs (hereafter referred to as TDSOs), that total cost is paid out in increments. For common IOs that survive the life of the enhancement slot, that cost is paid out in one lump sum.
Note that the inf savings, if any, of switching over to an IO system midway through the career of the character actually decrease with level, because of the costs already paid out into the TDSO system.
Note also that IOs do in some sense become obsolete; the point at which an IO is superceded by the average benefit of the TDSO system is called the crossover point, and the number of levels between the purchase of the IO and the next crossover point is called the IO's lifetime.
Guiding principles
In order to determine a fair price for common IOs, we need to establish some guiding principles, which are the mathematical expression of desired game results. They are fairly easily stated as follows:
[*]Common IOs need to be economically competitive with the SO upgrade path. This is something of a sine qua non; if they are not economically competitive, no one will use them when there is a way to get equivalent power with TDSOs, i.e. prior to lvl 45. The savings also have to be substantial enough to justify the additional complexity of dealing with storing, sorting, and potentially even buying recipes and salvage.
[*]Common IOs need to be economically feasible for characters with no inf benefactor. If the system is economically beneficial but out of reach for poor characters, due to lower TCO but a staggering up-front cost, we end up with a "rich get richer, poor get poorer" kind of system.
[*]Common IOs need to have a tangible and substantive cost. While perhaps not directly unbalancing, having common IO costs that are too low will neuter crafting badges and render the use of consignment for recipes moot.
You may ask whether it's possible to satisfy both the second and third constraints simultaneously. I do think this is possible, and I'll explain why in the calculations.
II. Calculations
Average benefit for TDSOs
We would like to know what the average of the TDSO sawtooth is for the best-case upgrade scenarios, so that we can compare them to IOs:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Upgrading once per 5 levels: (+3, +2, +1, 0, -1): Avg TDSO level: +1
Upgrading twice per 5 levels: (+3, +3, +2, +1, 0): Avg TDSO level: +1.8
Upgrading thrice per 5 levels: (+3, +3, +3, +2, +1): Avg TDSO level: +2.4
</pre><hr />
Note that upgrading multiple times every 5 levels doesn't give quite an overall +1 benefit, since the bonus is still capped at +3; still, we can fudge factor this a bit and say that to get +2 average SOs, you'll need to upgrade twice, and to get +3 average SOs, you'll need to upgrade three times.
TCO Table for Damage TDSOs
I chose damage TDSOs because the numbers are (usually) round, and they are perhaps the most common enhancement type overall. Other types of enhancements are simple scale factors of these numbers: accuracy is slightly more, recharge slightly less, etc.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Level Type Cost Remaining
5 TO 500 284965
10 TO 1000 283965
15 DO 5985 277980
20 DO 7980 270000
25 SO 30000 240000
30 SO 36000 204000
35 SO 42000 162000
40 SO 48000 114000
45 SO 54000 60000
50 SO 60000 0
-----
Total TCO 285465
</pre><hr />
Comparison Table for Damage IOs
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Level IO % Equiv Lifetime Breakeven Cost
10 11.7 -3 DO 5 1000
15 19.2 +3 DO 10 13965
20 25.6 -3 SO 5 N/A
25 30.2 -1 SO 0 none
30 34.8 +1 SO 23 240000
35 36.7 +2 SO 18 408000**
40 38.6 +3 SO 13 486000***
45 40.5 +4 SO 8 N/A
50 42.4 +5 SO 3 N/A
-----
** Attaining this value with SOs requires double upgrades; breakeven cost is 2x
*** Attaining this value with SOs requires triple upgrades; breakeven cost is 3x
</pre><hr />
To calculate the breakeven cost, I looked at the corresponding table entry in the TCO table above. For example, after buying a level 25 damage SO, I have 240k inf left to invest in that slot. If at level 30 I buy a damage IO instead, I have saved myself 240k minus the cost of that damage IO.
I did fudge the breakeven costs a little bit. In order to get +3 DO efficacy, a character would need to upgrade 3 times every five levels; but the difference between a +1 and a +2 DO is much less than the difference between a +1 and a +2 SO, so the double- or triple-purchase upgrade plans are not very appealing. At the higher levels, however, these other purchase plans are the only real way to compare IOs to TDSOs, so I left them in place.
The breakeven cost represents the maximum anyone should be willing to pay for an IO. In other words, going above this cost would immediately violate the first guiding principle I listed above.
In order to be competitive with TDSOs, IOs need to cost significantly less than the breakeven cost. But how much less? To answer that question, I need to point out an anomaly in the comparison table:
At level 25, there is no power incentive to use IOs as opposed to SOs. A level 25 IO is actually less powerful than its TDSO equivalent. This is the only level in the entire curve where the lifetime of the IO is "zero".
There is a subtle opportunity here. Characters with inf benefactors have zero incentive to use IOs at that level; instead, the rational plan is to use SOs at 25 and switch to IOs at 30. So level 25 IOs are only relevant to poor characters. We can tweak the cost of these IOs in order to satisfy the third guiding principle above, by making level 25 IOs cost the same amount as level 25 SOs. Characters can then buy into the IO system with enhancements that never expire and pay only a small penalty in their power curve. The rich might still be able to get richer, but the poor can now get richer, too.
With all this in mind, I present:
III. Final Results
Suggested Total Costs for Damage IOs
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Level IO % Equiv Lifetime Breakeven Cost Suggested Cost
10 11.7 -3 DO 5 1000 1500
15 19.2 +3 DO 10 13965 9000
20 25.6 -3 SO 5 N/A 12000
25 30.2 -1 SO 0 none 30000
30 34.8 +1 SO 23 240000 120000
35 36.7 +2 SO 18 408000 240000
40 38.6 +3 SO 13 486000 300000
45 40.5 +4 SO 8 N/A 400000
50 42.4 +5 SO 3 N/A 500000
</pre><hr />
Note that the values for 45 and 50 IOs represent an extrapolation of the table's existing trends, since there is no direct comparison in the TDSO system.
I think this table does a good job at satisfying all constraints. IOs represent a cost savings opportunity, at the burden of increased complexity. The cost savings are substantial enough to warrant spending some money in the Consignment system acquiring recipes and salvage pieces. At the same time, they are expensive enough that crafting badges and memorized recipes have a tangible benefit.
Recipe vs. Crafting Costs
The above costs represent the total of the recipe and crafting costs. In the interest of simplicity, I would suggest splitting this equally between the two (i.e., at level 10, the recipe costs 750 inf and the act of crafting costs 750 inf).
Parting thoughts
That was quite a long post - even longer than I'd imagined. As I mentioned before, I have not actually looked at what the inf costs are in game for crafting various levels of common IO.
I'm hoping that what I see in-game will mesh with these calculations, in which case, perhaps this post will guide some of the justifications for the rates staying as they are. If not, then this is my argument for rebalancing around the numbers I give.
Peace,
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
Part III
Now that I have finally had time to dive into this again (apologies, devs and other testers), let's look at the actual recipe + crafting costs for basic IOs:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Lvl Recipe Craft Total Recommended % of Rec.
10 1700 3400 5100 1500 340%
15 3550 7100 10650 9000 118%
20 16350 32700 49050 12000 408%
25 17550 35500 53050 30000 176%
30 30975 41300 72275 120000 60%
35 47025 63700 110725 240000 46%
40 74475 99300 173775 300000 57%
45 177200 177200 354400 400000 86%
50 464400 464400 928800 500000 185%
</pre><hr />
There are some interesting properties of this table.
First, I strongly believe that the level 10 and 20 IOs are grossly overpriced. There is absolutely no incentive to even craft one of these things given that the 5 levels it will take for them to become obsolete compared to TDSOs will take very little time to work through, and you'd be better served fighting and gaining XP than dealing with the salvage involved.
It's possible that badgers will flood the market with level 10 IOs they crafted, but other than that, level 10 IOs are going to be completely ignored. Why even have them if they cost this much? Level 20s have a tangible advantage in their bonuses, but they become outstripped so quickly by SOs that again I think most people will ignore them in practice.
As an aside, I was astonished that the recipe cost at 10-20 is so significantly less than the craft cost. If the devs inverted this relationship, lvl 10 and 20 IOs might still see some use by people who got lucky drops. As it stands, even the crafting cost for these items serves to marginalize them.
Second, I think there is a problem at levels 25-40. In this level range, basic IOs are still expensive enough that non-twinked characters are going to have huge difficulty justifying the expense. Yet they are so cheap at 30 compared to the current cost of twinking characters with SOs that sugar-daddy sponsors would be foolish not to use them. This is exactly the rich-get-richer, poor-get-poorer problem I was trying to avoid in my analysis: twinking not only gives you more power over the life of the character, it also saves money. I don't think twinking should be encouraged to that extent.
I would like to re-iterate my suggestion that level 25 IOs be normalized in cost to SOs. They are weaker than SOs at that level, so fully twinking min-maxers will ignore them anyway. This is the golden opportunity for Cryptic to allow people to buy into the IO system in a deliberate way that won't cripple the characters' other slotting at that level.
Last, I will fully admit that the numbers for levels 45 and 50 basic IOs were kind of pulled out of a hat. I actually have very little problem with what Cryptic chose to do here. The level 50 cost seems a bit high, but given that it can potentially allow 2-slotting instead of 3-slotting, it's hard to figure out how to map that onto an inf cost.
OK, that's it for now. Devs, you now have my opinion on record
Peace
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
Nice, nice work.
fascinating!
Something seems dramatically wrong with those numbers that would show IOs being more cost effective. A high level 50 SO is *only* about 45,000 while a level 50 basic-IO is over 500,000.
Even combining three SOs are you looking at less than 1/2 of the cost of a basic IO that you bought the recipe for and then crafted (and possibly had to buy expensive salvage.)
I have *never* come close to wiping out my influence with buying SOs (I believe it is roughly 2,500,000 inf to fully SO at level 47.)
60+ slots is 21,000,000... and I only have about 12-20 million on my flush high level characters.
Basic IOs seem to be set up to remove influence from the high level game for a small increase.
Still here, even after all this time!
Wow...and I thought I was a numbers junkie!
I do have some questions though (years in Quality Assurance but with no Stat Analysis training...sorry):
Why did you put a Remaining column for yout TCO chart? IMHO simply showing the TCO of 285,465 would have been sufficient. Sorry to nit-pick but at first glance it was a little confusing.
I believe that the Devs have raised the crafting cost vs the cost of the actual recipe because they're trying to drain excess Inf from the system and crafting is like labor on your car...it's a non-resalable value. I can sell salvage, I can sell a recipe but I can't sell a crafting cost.
Here's my question: Why are the Devs so terrified of piles of surplus Inf lying around? The best Enhancement that you can buy is +3 so the best that a min-maxing powergamer will get is...+3. If +3 is the absolute ceiling for anything and there are other ways to remove Inf from the game like the Costume Shop, what's the harm in my lvl 50 whatever (I don't have a 50 yet...example) having 10 million Inf? I can use it to help my friends and alts have nicer clothes and better Enhancements but since there is a finite ceiling so what?
Why does the crafting cost start out at double the recipe cost and wind up being equal to it? It seems to me that a simple linear progression would be best. Why juggle the numbers at the higher levels?
From what I've seen on some of the IO spreadsheets available from outside sources most of the basic, non-set IOs actually give a lesser effect that an SO slotted for the same thing. Example: Summon Zombie Horde has the Unquestioning Loyalty series of IOs. The first IO gives the Zombies a Dmg and Acc bonus but only to the tune of 21% while I can slot Dmg and Acc to 33%. The difference (12%) is more than I can recover with Leadership. So why on earth would I slot Unquestioning Loyalty? Is it THAT much cheaper? I doubt it given the rest of your chart. And I'd rather spend the one extra slot than have to take the 12% hit tyvm.
Also, slotting the entire Loyalty set (no set bonus which is why I chose it) consumes 4 slots and gives me less Acc and Dmg than I would get from slotting 2 SOs for each. But the added component is End Redux...why? I do now know of a single MM player that slots Summon Horde with End Redux...none. I have never seen a Zombie run out of End nor am I likely to. So now the Devs are trying to make Unquestioning Loyalty look shiny and new but attaching an End Redux rider on it like some cheap bill in Congress? Someone please explain it to me...
Another question and this is the real burning one for me...I have heard that IOs will never wear out. The Dmg IO that I slot at lvl 10 will still be good for the same dmg bonus at lvl 50. Granted...a lvl 50 IO would grant a higher bonus but it would also cost more. So at what point does a single IO give the same bonus as a basic, even-level SO? Using Dmg as an example will there be a single IO that will give me +33% Dmg as a single SO will now?
I DO see a benefit in slotting things that normally fall by the wayside as characters advance like Sprint and Rest. Slot an IO in there at lvl 10 and it's good for life. But this seems pretty small return for what might be a pretty large investment in time to get it.
I forsee problems with Inventions that I have NOT seen addressed yet.
1) It will be complex. I don't care if the tutorial is an hour long and complete with glossy colored photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph written on the back of each one...it's going to be complex. New players will be overwhelmed. Relatively new players will have to go out-of-game for relavent information and become fed-up with the number crunching. Players will either ignore the system or leave in frustration.
2) Ah...ignoring the system. Inventions has been touted as totally optional. But when everyone gets Invention salvage and recipes through drops they cannot ignore them. They will have to find a way to get rid of them...like selling them. I can see this as a new form of income for those that will only dabble in the system or will 'ignore' it as they level up their character is the same old way and occasionally get that rare piece of salvage or that rare recipe that they don't want. Look...going rate for this is 100k on the market. Ok...I'll sell mine at 95% of the market price (free money since I found it lying around right?) and voila I just got 80+K after the listing fee! Now I'll rush right out and buy my shiny new lvl 25 SO...just like the Devs didn't seem to want me to do...
3) Although the Trade has not yet been implemented the last time I checked the Inf trade window has been expanded to now hold numbers in the Billions. Billions...ok...now I've heard of characters with Billions of Inf...even spoke to one who claimed to have several Billion Inf...but what in all the name of Holy heck is gonna be so expensive that I might have to actually SPEND a Billion Inf?! Do the Devs honestly think that their new system will drain THAT much from the economy? Oh btw can't that same character go back out and do it AGAIN? If so what's the point?
I am NOT trying to knock Inventions. I haven't been on the Test server because I don't want to see some artificially inflated prices from players with millions of copied Inf to throw around. I want to see what the actual prices will be. I'm eager to see some of it and find out what it holds for some of my concept characters (like wings!). But I am NOT going to be hooked into my machine for 20 hours straight trying to figure it all out. Some of my alts may wind up farming lower-level stuff for my favorite characters. Fine as far as I can see. Some of my characters will want some of the new shiny and that's fine too. The Devs have now laid a groundwork that they can expand upon with LOTS of new ideas for Powers, costume pieces and all sorts of stuff and I think that all that is great.
But I think it will all go terribly wrong...and I'll tell you why...In the meager 6 months that I've played I've seen I8 roll out (with 3+ month's worth of bugs thank you) and seen I9 on the horizon. I've also read that the Devs were surprised at how SGs and Bases were used (or underused in the case of Bases) by the players. Apparently they're also surprised that in a world where you can spend 3 million for SOs and half a million for a simple costume that there would be characters with tens or hundreds of Millions of Inf lying around. I also read somewhere that the Hamidon Raid was changed because the players found out how to take the most difficult battle in the entire game and farm it for (relatively) easy HOs that they can accumulate to make their 50s even more powerful. We players seem to surprise the Devs a lot...
I think that we're going to do it again with Inventions too. For the first few weeks there will be the typical feeding frenzy as those with piles of Inf pour it into the system to buy the stuff that they want but either cannot find or are too lazy to look for. Then the market will settle down and people like me will begin to come out. People like me with piles of salvage and recipes because I have lots of time on my hands and log way too many hours a day. People like me who want a pair of wings there, maybe a set of Rocket Boots, and then that's it for a while. people like me who have no problem selling at or below the market price just so my lvl 22 Brute can stock up on shiny new SOs and forget the other stuff.
I think that the system will have a resounding effect on the players at the far extremes of the system. I see the rich getting poor (by buying what they want instead of looking for it) and the poor getting rich (through selling the occasional rare piece that they find through casual play).
IMHO Cryptic has made a big mistake in opening Inventions up to a free market economy. They SHOULD have had markets where you could buy and sell salvage and recipes at set prices...even very high or very low ones. This way the items most desired by the 40+ers could be made pricy enough to drain the evil excess Inf from the game and the reward for the occasional rare gem that my lvl 14whatever finds is more in line with his level so he doesn't become wealthy over night. This would also enable them to fix the prices at the lower levels at a point where characters at lvl 15 and below can actually get some of the neat but unbalancing stuff to get a taste.
Sorry to have droned on too long but I sincerely feel that Inventions might blow up in the Dev's faces and make what they wanted to change worse.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to have droned on too long but I sincerely feel that Inventions might blow up in the Dev's faces and make what they wanted to change worse.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except your lengthy drone doesn't actually make any points on how the Inventions system might 'blow up'.... It's just a lengthy and pointless drone with a little dooooooooooom sprinkled in for spice.
Being concise is a virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't been on the Test server
[/ QUOTE ]
Then all you are doing is crying dooooooooooom without even knowing the most basic facts of the Invention system.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
[ QUOTE ]
Even combining three [level 50] SOs are you looking at less than 1/2 of the cost of a basic IO that you bought the recipe for and then crafted (and possibly had to buy expensive salvage.)
[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's not true. A doubly-combined level 50 SO is not the equivalent of a level 50 IO. A doubly combined level 50 is the equivalent of a level 40 IO. In addition, if you buy that level 40 IO when you hit level 37, you get three rounds' worth of doubly-combined SO valuation - the ones you would have purchased at level 40, level 45, and level 50. By that metric, level 40 IOs win by a fair margin over SOs.
That is the whole point of the analysis. Basic IOs are a ridiculously good deal at 30, 35, and 40. They are completely ignorable at 10 and 20. They are worth buying at 15. 25 is an anomaly because SOs are actually more powerful.
But at 45 and 50, they are not directly comparable to SOs, because they represent a level of power you cannot buy into in the current TDSO system.
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you put a Remaining column for yout TCO chart? IMHO simply showing the TCO of 285,465 would have been sufficient. Sorry to nit-pick but at first glance it was a little confusing.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Remaining column shows the most important number in that table: the Remaining number is the opportunity cost of switching over to a basic IO midway through character career. That's how much inf you save if you never have to upgrade your enhancements for that slot again.
I know the post was long and wordy, and I probably could have represented the information better, but that is a critical point so I wanted to underscore it.
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
Ok...concise...right...
Why are the Devs so terrified of piles of surplus Inf lying around? I can use it to help my friends and alts have nicer clothes and better Enhancements but since there is a finite ceiling so what?
Why does the crafting cost start out at double the recipe cost and wind up being equal to it? It seems to me that a simple linear progression would be best. Why juggle the numbers at the higher levels?
Summon Zombie Horde has the Unquestioning Loyalty series of IOs. The first IO gives the Zombies a Dmg and Acc bonus to the tune of 21% while I can slot Dmg and Acc to 33%. The difference (12%) is more than I can recover with Leadership. So why on earth would I slot Unquestioning Loyalty other than to save one slot?
Also, slotting the entire Loyalty set (no set bonus which is why I chose it) consumes 4 slots and gives me less Acc and Dmg than I would get from slotting 2 SOs for each. But the added component is End Redux...why?
I have heard that IOs will never wear out. The Dmg IO that I slot at lvl 10 will still be good for the same Dmg bonus at lvl 50. Granted...a lvl 50 IO would grant a higher bonus but it would also cost more. So at what point does a single IO give the same bonus as a basic, even-level SO? Using Dmg as an example will there be a single IO that will give me +33% Dmg as a single SO will now?
Although the Trade has not yet been implemented the last time I checked the Inf trade window has been expanded to now hold numbers in the Billions. Do the Devs honestly think that their new system will drain THAT much from the economy? Oh btw can't that same character go back out and do it AGAIN? If so what's the point? What part of the Invention system will require me to spend a Billion Inf?
There...how's that?
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
[ QUOTE ]
There...how's that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not much better. You still haven't learned even the basic of the Inventions system, and you still don't specify why you think the system will 'blow up'.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
Nice job.
I know Posi said that it is easier to adjust cost down, rather than upward, should it turn out that the cost was wacky. That explains the current cost structure to me. Based on his statement, I would expect it to be high. Sure looks like it is, and they have the wiggle room.
The pre 30 IO's are my concern. If IO's would level with you, or would be combinable, I think that would go a long way toward easing the pre 30 IO cost/benefit issue.
One thing I have noticed, my lowbies are raking in the money on the test server, I'm thinking this will help newer players. I see this as making the game more fun to the newer player.
A new player puts a boresite on the market, and he set for that character, when it sells. Before the "markets" the only way this was possible was to either know someone, or buy the inf from outside the game. I know if this happened to me, I would be all over how the system works, and would be inspired to sell and buy other things, just for the challenge.
One thing I have to say in closing, is I've noticed an improvement in my characters from the IO's and I'm looking forward to I9, and to be honest, I didn't think it had much to offer to me.
Just Lucky that way...
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have noticed, my lowbies are raking in the money on the test server, I'm thinking this will help newer players. I see this as making the game more fun to the newer player.
[/ QUOTE ]
Won't be happening quite as much on Live.
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have to say in closing, is I've noticed an improvement in my characters from the IO's and I'm looking forward to I9, and to be honest, I didn't think it had much to offer to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm noticing some slight improvement - but then few of my chars are in a position to really take advantage.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There...how's that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not much better. You still haven't learned even the basic of the Inventions system, and you still don't specify why you think the system will 'blow up'.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. I decided to try a different tactic and ask what I think are pertinent questions and cut out all of the doom and rambling and unsupported statements.
You know...concise...
Now, leaving off all of the previous assumptions of the system blowing up, how about answers to the questions? Or are you just flamebaiting?
PS: As for learning the basics of the Inventions system, I'm asking the easy questions that may crop up through the normal player base. I think someone once estimated that 1% of the players come here looking for information. I'm looking for it and not finding it. Is this information covered, accurately and in depth, in the Tutorial? Because about 99% of the game population won't have gone to test before I9 hits. So are they not allowed to ask questions either? Just how much of this information will be readily available in-game?
There...you see? Another question...
Does anyone have a link to the Inventions tutorial? Searching for it brings up the hero and villain game tutorials and about a thousand posts containing the word Inventions...
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
[ QUOTE ]
I'm looking for it [information] and not finding it.
[/ QUOTE ]
One of your questions:
[ QUOTE ]
So at what point does a single IO give the same bonus as a basic, even-level SO? Using Dmg as an example will there be a single IO that will give me +33% Dmg as a single SO will now?
[/ QUOTE ]
indicates to me that you didn't read even the post you are responding to, much less do much investigation in other parts of this forum.
The table is posted in Part II of my analysis and understanding it is an integral part of the numbers I come up with. If you didn't even glean this much out of my post, I am not sure how to help you. I realize my analysis is long, and perhaps could be tightened up, but the information is there before your eyes.
The answer to this specific question, by the way, is "a level 30 IO gives roughly the same bonus as an SO". (That's an approximation; if you want the exact percentage, see the aforementioned table.)
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
I've only played for a couple days on test, just to see what the system would be like. I logged on a level 22 tanker, and only fooled around with the basic IOs, not the sets or dual-aspects ones. My impression?
I liked it. I liked that at level 22, I could slot a level 25 IO for a boost that was very close to what an SO would give me. I could sell salvage (getting salvage is inevitable), have more than enough influence to pick up a quite a few IOs, and have my hero decked out with a rather large percentage of IOs by the time I hit level 23.
Was I spending more influence than if I bought SOs? Yes. I was also making more influence because I was selling salvage. Since I wasn't trying to get sets, my rares sold for good money, funding my basic IOs. I was enhanced to fully near-SO capabilities by the time I was level 23! And I would never have to worry about changing out or combining those IOs because they went red!
While your analysis may or may not be accurate when it comes to analyzing the cost of IOs compared to SOs, you also have to take into account that the economy will be drastically different now. There are more ways to make money. How this will all play out in the marketplace has yet to be seen, since something like economy can't adequately be analyzed on the test server. After all, for many people, test characters aren't treated as seriously as their "real" characters, so I was much less conservative when it came to spending money. But still, the economy will definitely change. Will $50,000 mean the same thing later as it does now? No.
Personally, I like the convenience of not having to worry about maintaining my enhancements. Yeah, I'll eventually want them upgraded, but on my terms and when I'm ready. Not because they're yellow and about to turn red when I level.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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I liked that at level 22, I could slot a level 25 IO for a boost that was very close to what an SO would give me. I could sell salvage (getting salvage is inevitable), have more than enough influence to pick up a quite a few IOs, and have my hero decked out with a rather large percentage of IOs by the time I hit level 23.
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So you chose to slot N level 25 IOs rather than N*2 level 25 SOs? Interesting. You made the decision I would like to see encouraged, but I had the impression that players would be dissuaded from doing so by the sizable sacrifice required in the *number* of enhancements the player could afford at 22. (Note that you're also sacrificing performance, slightly.)
Here is what I plan to do for my own characters, who are going to be funded by my own 50s via my SG (yes, I twink):
pre-level 12: Use drops only
Level 12: Outfit using lvl 15 IOs
Level 17: Nothing
Level 22: Outfit using level 25 SOs
Level 27: Outfit using level 30 IOs
Level 32: Nothing
Level 37: Nothing
Level 42: Upgrade selective 1 or 2-slotted aspects to lvl 45 IOs
Level 47: Upgrade selective 1 or 2-slotted aspects to lvl 50 IOs
This is only 3 rounds of "required" enhancement purchases for the entire career of my character, compared with 8 currently. The last two rounds will not be full upgrades and may depend on whether I can respec to change slotting around.
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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First, I strongly believe that the level 10 and 20 IOs are grossly overpriced. There is absolutely no incentive to even craft one of these things
...
Second, I think there is a problem at levels 25-40. In this level range, basic IOs are still expensive enough that non-twinked characters are going to have huge difficulty justifying the expense.
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Okay good I'm not insane. You noticed the exact same thing that I did. Until my toons get into the 30s, they are always dead broke every level. The crafting costs are ludicrous. It's not worth starting until I'm 35 and have -some- influence to spare.
But then again... some devs seem to view the game as if it doesn't begin until then.
--
My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
Comicsluvr, I empathize with your viewpoint. I too spent days "raging against the machine" and trying to illustrate why this system would be more bad than good for CoH/V.
Of course, then I actually went to Test and tried it out. Shut me up good. 
First off, the expectation that the tutorial is going to teach you "everything you need to know" about the invention system is misguided in the extreme. Just like powers descriptions don't teach you "everything you need to know" about powers. The tutorial teaches the basic information you need to know about the systems and how they work. That's all it NEEDS to do, and it accomplishes that very well. If you want in-depth information, there's a wealth of it available from the oft-misused thing called "the community". The tutorial isn't going to tell you what "the best" set bonus is for your character since that's highly subjective. It's not going to tell you that SOs are going to provide a higher bonus at 22 but will degrade over time thus possibly making IOs (or a mixture of IOs and SOs) a better value for your character.
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is with lots of excess inf floating around the game prior to the consignment house's rollout. There was little to nothing to DO with the inf prior to this. If you weren't an Icon junkie or altaholic, it would be easy to accumulate hundreds of millions from regular gameplay. God forbid you actually exemplared ever, it'd get even worse. But then, I have over a dozen characters on 5 servers who have 1 or more million influence and they can't even choose travel powers yet. They benefited from that excess influence when it was handed out in the form of costume/bio contests (which don't seem quite as lucrative now as they once were).
My suggestion to you is, log in to Test and look around. It'll give you your own educated perspective on the system, rather than having you form a misguided, largely incorrect viewpoint based on bits and pieces of information with no context. Protea's findings mirror my own and have helped me form a battle plan of sorts so I'll hit the ground running, so to speak, when this goes live. For the first month or so, I see my low level characters becoming very wealthy, very fast (relative to what they could expect during i8) and thus, being able to fund their own enhancements much sooner. But, I see a major discrepancy between the performance (in this respect) of my heroes as opposed to my villains (who might have quite a tough row to hoe).
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
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My suggestion to you is, log in to Test and look around. It'll give you your own educated perspective on the system, rather than having you form a misguided, largely incorrect viewpoint based on bits and pieces of information with no context.
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It might have been more useful to explain what happens differently in practice than in the theory. I'm a little lost on what is uneducated or incorrect about analyzing the actual numbers.
--
My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
Thank you for your support Kension...it's appreciated.
To the OP: My apologies if I upset you but I'm used to working with people much less insightful than you are and as a result I like to see my information laid out in captain-dummy talk. I reread your posts and the information was indeed there...I was just accustomed to having the pertinent stuff closer to the surface.
The reasons that I have avoided going to Test to try out Inventions for myself include but are not limited to:
1) I have no 50s with millions of Inf. My highest character is a lvl 33 Brute with something like 0.75 million Inf horded against the coming lvl 37 SO buying frenzy.
2) I have absolutely no desire to glimpse into a mock-up filled with over-inflated prices from wealthy characters out trying to kick the system's tires. This will NOT give me anything like a fair, educated idea of how the system will work. What it WILL do is give me a good idea of how Inventions would be if Inf could be endlessly copied and never run out. Live play doesn't work that way so I don't see the point.
3) The Test server will also only give me a limited idea of the range of drops over a typical play period (say a day) for the characters that I copy there. I have something like 50 characters across 4 servers...I should copy them all to get an accurate idea of how Inventions will really play out? No wait...over-inflated prices because of the Inf-copying thing...right. So even if the system looks good for 1-2 characters for a day that does NOT mean that it will work for everyone in the long term.
I am NOT here to cry doom all over the place based on wild conjecture and assumption. I really like CoX. Since I started playing it has become my third largest time-consumer after sleeping and writing which means I play a LOT. Even though I'm not a 3-yr vet like some of you or a serious MMO-player like others (this is my first in fact) I don't feel that I need to be in order to see certain things.
A) The Devs feel that there is too much Inf in the system. Even if they never admit it in so many words the numerous ways that we have to remove Inf from the game is evidence enough IMHO. Why else would it cost 250K to alter your costume? Why else would they restrict Inf trades to 100K until I9 and not allow simple ways to transfer Inf from one player-character to one of his alts without a third party? At the lowest levels of the Invention system the largest expense in the Crafting cost. Why? Because it can't be recovered in any way. Enhancements, salvage, even whole IO sets can be bought, sold and traded but the Crafting cost comes out of the system and is gone forever.
B) Not everyone is going to like or want to participate in Inventions. It has been touted as being totally optional from the start and I think that that is a major selling point. You don't HAVE to craft one thing to play...but you'll still get the salvage and the recipes through standard drops. If you don't want them what do you do? Benevolent (or wealthy) characters may simply give the stuff away or sell it so cheaply that they might as well be doing so. Others who want the Crafting badges and such might turn into misers and horde everything and that's fine for them. But the fact is that a new way to make money is being added to a game where the Devs obviously feel that there is too much already. I don't see this as being bad but I have a hunch that the Devs might.
C) As I stated before the Devs have admitted to being surprised by players before. Anyone who has ever run a RPG can recall countless times where their pool of 4 or 5 or 8 players did something that threw them. It may not happen all the time...it may not happen often...but it DOES happen. This game has how many people on the Dev team...20? There are 170,000 accounts representing (I'm guessing) over 150,000 players in this game right now. Given the fact that the Devs have been surprised before what are the chances that it can happen again? Pretty high IMHO.
When I9 goes live the Inf trade window will support values in the billions. Why did the Devs expand this window unless they felt that it would be needed for some reason? Either they feel that some characters are going to have billions of Inf (which they don't seem to want) or they believe that something somewhere in the game will cost a billion or more Inf. Now assuming that my Brute has 10 million Inf by the time he hits 50 (just grabbing a round number here...) why on earth would he NEED the ability to carry or trade a billion Inf?
My fundamental problems with the game are as follows:
I don't think that costume pieces should have ever been tied to vet rewards or badges. To me this not only interferes with concept characters but also creates an air of eliteism in the game.
'Look! I have the thing that you can't have until you've played another two years!'
I don't think that costume changes should cost as much as they do. Of all of my characters two have more than one costume and those involved free costume badges. After Inventions comes out and I craft the few items I want then that's it for me. But others love the character generator and the costume shops and have admitted to spending hours there 'shopping for new clothes.' I feel that the costume shops are simply another way to draw Inf from the game...another way to keep poorer characters from doing something fun.
I don't think that the auction houses/black market should exist in their current form because for some they will generate surplus Inf...something the devs don't want. If they don't want it then they are going to try and fix it...which might make the problem worse since by then it will have been live for 3 months, the interested players will be used to the system and the disinterested ones will have the surplus Inf already.
I strongly believe that the Invention salvage and recipes should have been designed to be bought and sold at the AH/BM as just another store with set prices for everything. This way the Devs could have direct control over the prices as well as the supply. I believe that the AH/BM system, with prices driven by the players, will make the rich a little poorer and the poor a lot richer...not exactly WAD.
IMHO the Devs should have made the Inf situation a non-issue right away by simply making a ceiling on the amount a single character could have. I have been told that a complete change-out of top-end SOs for a 50 can run something like 3 million Inf. Okay, that being said why would a character have or need more than 10 million Inf ever? If the Devs had capped Inf at 10 million per character then the hundreds of millions or even billions of Inf in the system now that they fear so much would not exist.
Another, much more useful Inf-sink would have been Bases IMHO. The exchange rate of 2000 Prestige for 1 million Inf is rediculous. I would like to see if anyone ever used this feature since it was put in. If not then the Devs should have seen right away that it was broken and tried to fix it. They did not and so it sits unused.
In order for an exchange rate to work it has to be fair for both parties on some level. Trading $100.00 bill for 5 $20.00 bills is a wash...no loss or gain. Paying $50.00 for a $60.00 radio that actually cost the vendor $20.00 and is the last one in the store works for both sides. The buyer feels satisfied that he got a good deal and the merchant both makes money and sells the thing that may not have moved for 3 months. Paying extra for something now versus waiting a few days is fair because to some the time difference is well worth the difference in price and that's their choice.
A glance by any highschool Business student would have revealed that the Pres/Inf exchange rate was flawed. The only way any player is going to exchange Inf for Pres is if he REALLY needs the Pres for something or if the rate seems pretty fair. The former is not likely to happen since there is no time-pressure in building a Base usually and the player can just do missions for an hour for the 2000 Prestige. However even a 50, IIRC, would be hard-pressed to earn 1 million Inf in an hour. Since the time investment is uneven nobody used the system. A few simple questions would have revealed the flaw: Even if I could trade 1 million Inf for 2000 Pres would I? Would the system work the other way i.e. what if I wanted to trade 2000 Prestige for 1 million Inf?
The second one would have closed the issue right there and then.
IMHO the exchange rate should be something on the order of 10-1...10 Inf for 1 prestige. If I had a 50 with 10 million Inf I could give it away or trade it to an alt (which horrifies the Devs) or I could convert it to 1 million Prestige and build a Base. Not a huge base...not a grandiose sprawling fortress...but a nice little Base.
I've gone on way too long already but I wanted to make it clear that I am NOT some nut on the streetcorner saying that Inventions will end the world because I don't like the way it works. Rather I feel like an objective analyst looking at some sort of financial/social model and seeing a trend that I don't like.
My biggest fear is that the players will do exactly what the Devs are not expecting and that the resulting action by the Devs may crash the whole thing.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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But at 45 and 50, they are not directly comparable to SOs, because they represent a level of power you cannot buy into in the current TDSO system.
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Since at lvl 50 an SO lasts just as long as an IO why cannot you not just use their respective bonus values?
lvl 50 SO 32% 60K
lvl 50 IO 42% 464K (maybe twice that).
Interestingly I wonder if Damage IOs won't sell for more than SOs because you will still 3 slot (and so gain little benefit) where as Accurancy and End is a different story.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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A) The Devs feel that there is too much Inf in the system.
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What they fail to understand is that all of the influence flows like wine after level 35 or so. Through the teens and 20s, a lot of us struggle to pay for our enh's. Buying inspirations? Schaa. I understand the prices at higher levels, but the lower tiers are brutal.
I agree that we should have set prices. The auction house is just another system for power gamers to exploit, making the problem worse for the high end money hoarding.
I'd rather see personal apartments than dump more into unused bases, though.
--
My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
I love your assumptions 1 through 3... And you how you create from whole cloth not only an excuse for why you can't be bothered to test on Test, but provide yourself with an ongoing series of excuses whereby you can explain away why you cannot test inventions for yourself.
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I am NOT here to cry doom all over the place based on wild conjecture and assumption.
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The funny part is how you claim this - yet proceed to do so anyhow.
You still haven't bothered to learn the basics of the invention system. You still cannot explain how the invention system will 'blow up'. You still mistake quantity for quality.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
Part I
This post will attempt to analyze the inf costs of basic (non-set, single aspect) IOs. This is an area that I believe still needs some balance work, and I'm hoping that the devs have time to address a few concerns.
Part I of the post is this section, the introduction.
Part II is a re-post of something I wrote up in the closed beta, before I had seen the actual crafting and recipe prices as they appeared on the tables. Other than a few edits for clarity I am re-posting it verbatim. Part II is itself a long post, so be warned.
Part III is a comparison of the recommendations I made in Part II with what actually exists in-game on Test. I believe there are some ranges of basic IOs where the cost is out of line with the value of that IO when compared with training, dual-origin, or single-origin enhancements available at the same level range.
OK, let's begin. Remember the next post is a few weeks old at this point.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines