What customer related info could NCsoft include in a sale?
By
BlueBattler,
Posted on: 2012-11-19 17:27 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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In all honesty, we don't know if they will, or not. The data will exist, but who knows if a "new owner" would get that information if the game was purchased as part of the package. We don't know if NcSoft, etc. will have the ability, or willingness, to extract that information and give it to a different company. That would be up to NcSoft and any potential new owner to sort out amongst themselves. One would hope so, but like life, there are no guarantees beyond death and taxes.
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Originally Posted by ImpulseKing
I know this is probably covered by the EULA, but I'm not certain where. Asked another way, if the game is sold after shutdown how will the new owners know about things like veteran status or prior purchases?
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
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With Freedom, it's in many ways simpler. What spots are filled in on the Paragon Reward Table, and what store items are owned by the player (or what temp powers/etc. does the player have)? From a game standpoint, if someone has 75 spots filled on the reward table, it doesn't matter if that was 75 months worth of subscription or all from points.|
Originally Posted by ImpulseKing
I know this is probably covered by the EULA, but I'm not certain where. Asked another way, if the game is sold after shutdown how will the new owners know about things like veteran status or prior purchases?
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The trickier issue is what non-game info is provided. I don't think there'd be any problem with providing NCSoft Account name and password. Email is a little more sensitive, and wouldn't be completely necessary but would mean if you don't remember your password no way to recover.
In theory, to provide maximum privacy, something could be done with plaync.com where you log in and say "please send my info to the guys who bought CoH", would require some work plus how long does it stay (and what afterwards, are those accounts not claimed just lost).
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If NCsoft is really that concerned about privacy issues, the solution is simple. When we log into our NC account, there's a form we can enter and digitally sign to transfer our data to the new owner, and possibly even customize what forms of information get transferred.
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The problem is that does add a burden on the seller, it's not a simple "you give me the money, I give you the tapes and the deal is done" situation.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
If NCsoft is really that concerned about privacy issues, the solution is simple. When we log into our NC account, there's a form we can enter and digitally sign to transfer our data to the new owner, and possibly even customize what forms of information get transferred.
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It would take some technical wizardry, but it could be a lot worse. The cost of it would be a pebble drop in the pond.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
The problem is that does add a burden on the seller, it's not a simple "you give me the money, I give you the tapes and the deal is done" situation.
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And if you mean that it makes the sale less valuable... if someone DOESN'T transfer their character data, they either
A: Don't trust the new company
B: Don't want to play the game anymore
C: Plan on starting over with new characters
So, has the buyer really lost anything besides spam rights?
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Oh, I doubt that's a concern.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Yeah, but if someone DOESN'T transfer their character data, they either
A: Don't trust the new company B: Don't want to play the game anymore C: Plan on starting over with new characters So, has the buyer really lost anything besides spam rights? |
The concern is more - there are additional costs on the part of NCSoft to create and maintain that forum, a reason to not do the deal. And if they do add that form, how long does it stay up?
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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I've been thinking about this, and I don't see any way they can pass on the information and have it be anything less than a nightmare in the making. Both the legal problems that may come up with sharing someone's account data, and the chance of data coming out messed up.
IF someone else was to buy the game and SOMEHOW get it going on the old game engine again, I see only two choices. Buy everything again, or everybody gets all permanents that were already for sale. Consumables will likely be lost, I'm afraid, as will all characters.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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That would be the way to do it, and i *believe* the <edit>best</edit> way to do it, as it would be on a case by case basis. From what I can remember, they did this with the EU version of Aion.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
If NCsoft is really that concerned about privacy issues, the solution is simple. When we log into our NC account, there's a form we can enter and digitally sign to transfer our data to the new owner, and possibly even customize what forms of information get transferred.
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But then again, I believe there are laws in place for EU companies which prevent client information from being passed on without the clients consent. (T-Mobile fell foul of this due to some rogue staff selling information a couple of years ago.)
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If they're that bothered by it, they can charge me a service fee, whatever.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Oh, I doubt that's a concern.
The concern is more - there are additional costs on the part of NCSoft to create and maintain that forum, a reason to not do the deal. And if they do add that form, how long does it stay up? |
How long it stays up I guess is up to them. After a certain grace period though, I guess if anyone wants, they could possibly get it done via a service ticket instead?
Once it's set up, the automated transfer service is less trouble though. My domain registrar got bought out once and set up a service like this, and that was active for a couple years.
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If the game is sold, it will be sold lock, stock and barrel. The same as if the game was live and wasn't shutting down.|
Originally Posted by ImpulseKing
I know this is probably covered by the EULA, but I'm not certain where. Asked another way, if the game is sold after shutdown how will the new owners know about things like veteran status or prior purchases?
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Therefore, all information would be transferred over to the new company, effective some date in the future from the signing date, and the new EULA would be in place, and DOUBLY ANNOYING TO GET PAST, and a special one time log in highlighting the specific changes from the old EULA would be mandatory to read (or at least scroll down through) to get past it.
And if you don't agree to that, well, tough. The bought your information that pertains to your using the game, information that is required for you to *continue* to use the game, which would be the intent of the sale in the first place.
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If it's sold. If they structure it that way. It's entirely possible, after the game is shut down, that the customer data could be a non-factor, and JUST the IP will get sold, along with the code and/or hardware to run it...
... but everyone would start over. The old data would NOT be coming along. This is possible number 2, and is only an option due to the shutting down. If it were rolling along, this isn't on the table.
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And that's pretty much it, I'd gather. But then, I'm no lawyer. Easiest analogy... AT&T buys another, smaller, telco. AT&T now owns all your stuff that you had with that telco. Everything works the same, no action needed by you.
Or that telco shuts down. You go to AT&T, get the same service, but have to start all over.
Think that about covers it...
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
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Please note that more than likely there will be a hiccup if this happens for those EU account holders, and more than likely also in breach of several EU laws.|
Originally Posted by houtex
If the game is sold, it will be sold lock, stock and barrel. The same as if the game was live and wasn't shutting down.
Therefore, all information would be transferred over to the new company, effective some date in the future from the signing date, and the new EULA would be in place, and DOUBLY ANNOYING TO GET PAST, and a special one time log in highlighting the specific changes from the old EULA would be mandatory to read (or at least scroll down through) to get past it. And if you don't agree to that, well, tough. The bought your information that pertains to your using the game, information that is required for you to *continue* to use the game, which would be the intent of the sale in the first place. --- If it's sold. If they structure it that way. It's entirely possible, after the game is shut down, that the customer data could be a non-factor, and JUST the IP will get sold, along with the code and/or hardware to run it... ... but everyone would start over. The old data would NOT be coming along. This is possible number 2, and is only an option due to the shutting down. If it were rolling along, this isn't on the table. --- And that's pretty much it, I'd gather. But then, I'm no lawyer. Easiest analogy... AT&T buys another, smaller, telco. AT&T now owns all your stuff that you had with that telco. Everything works the same, no action needed by you. Or that telco shuts down. You go to AT&T, get the same service, but have to start all over. Think that about covers it... |
This is why I feel that there will be a page on the NCSoft master account page to transfer the information across.
My information is held with Ncsoft Europe and *not* NCsoft Interactive. They can sell my information over my dead body... and I *will* sue them if they do it.
Sorry if this screws up any sales of the game, but its my private information, and will not let it get transferred without my permission.
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Except the rumor du jour is that the sale is on hold until the game shuts down in order to clear contractual entanglements. To me, that sounds a lot like NCSoft didn't want to get involved with the mess of transfering accounts, subscriptions, points, character data etc...|
Originally Posted by houtex
If the game is sold, it will be sold lock, stock and barrel. The same as if the game was live and wasn't shutting down.
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My bet would be - even if the long-shot comes through, it'll be a fresh start.
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They can't sell "the game", because they don't own the game engine. They can sell the IP, and I'm pretty sure any art from the game, but not the entire game.|
Originally Posted by Brillig
Except the rumor du jour is that the sale is on hold until the game shuts down in order to clear contractual entanglements. To me, that sounds a lot like NCSoft didn't want to get involved with the mess of transfering accounts, subscriptions, points, character data etc...
My bet would be - even if the long-shot comes through, it'll be a fresh start. |
Given that, I'm not sure if anyone other than Perfect World would really get much use out of customer files for a game they have to rebuild.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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No, they license the engine. You'd have to ask someone who knows the contract details whether the license is transferable, but it'd hardly be unusual for it to be. Certainly people who *ought* to know are behaving like it is.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_M
They can't sell "the game", because they don't own the game engine. They can sell the IP, and I'm pretty sure any art from the game, but not the entire game.
Given that, I'm not sure if anyone other than Perfect World would really get much use out of customer files for a game they have to rebuild. |
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Ohh, good point. I didn't think about it being transferred.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
No, they license the engine. You'd have to ask someone who knows the contract details whether the license is transferable, but it'd hardly be unusual for it to be. Certainly people who *ought* to know are behaving like it is.
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"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
Even if the license isn't transferable - given how fast Cryptic and PWE moved to quash the rumor that the shutdown was due to the license expiring, I don't think either company wants to be "the reason the deal fell through". So they'd presumably cut a licensing deal.
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The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I want to say that Jack said the engine would go with the game if the game were to be transferred, no problem.
I *want* to say that... Seemed like that was put to bed way early in the speculations...
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I'm curious, does the EULA differ from the NA to the EU? All I see in it is "NCSoft", not "NCSoft:ParticularRegion" or anything that would say it's with a particular division... So if you agreed to it and played the game, the same rules apply, excepting of course any 'except if local laws are violated'... in which case.. what law is violated if your account information, needed to go with the game so you can follow it, is transferred, possibly less the credit card information, maybe?
I imagine in that case, we'd all be asked to put in a new set of payment information if we wanted to continue.
Then again, IANA Interational Lawyer, so I really don't know how that'd work. I know it'd just be transferred here in the States, because we lost that right a while back in terms of businesses pr parts of buisnesses being bought/sold... that info goes with. I know my email account's company/info has been sold twice, and they never asked me about if I had an issue... it just kept working.
Which is all I asked of it, really. And so far, no regrets/concerns due to the two sales.
Same is true for mortgages, they just move to the new company, and all your info goes with.
I'm really curious how that would have worked in the EU...
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
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Although the EULA is essentially the same (it might even be identical) the fact that NCsoft have an office in the EU, and that it is the EU office that holds all of the subscriber information means that they have to follow EU laws and regulations for those accounts.|
Originally Posted by houtex
I'm curious, does the EULA differ from the NA to the EU? All I see in it is "NCSoft", not "NCSoft:ParticularRegion" or anything that would say it's with a particular division... So if you agreed to it and played the game, the same rules apply, excepting of course any 'except if local laws are violated'... in which case.. what law is violated if your account information, needed to go with the game so you can follow it, is transferred, possibly less the credit card information, maybe?
I imagine in that case, we'd all be asked to put in a new set of payment information if we wanted to continue. Then again, IANA Interational Lawyer, so I really don't know how that'd work. I know it'd just be transferred here in the States, because we lost that right a while back in terms of businesses pr parts of buisnesses being bought/sold... that info goes with. I know my email account's company/info has been sold twice, and they never asked me about if I had an issue... it just kept working. Which is all I asked of it, really. And so far, no regrets/concerns due to the two sales. Same is true for mortgages, they just move to the new company, and all your info goes with. I'm really curious how that would have worked in the EU... |
Whilst in the US, as you said, the information is *willingly* traded between corporations, in the EU we have the nice tick boxes for "passing information onto Partners and 3rd parties".
Also we have the data protection act, which means that *by law* we are allowed to view all of the information that a company holds on us (there might be a small fee included in this one, but it generally gets waived from what I can tell), so that we can correct any wrong stuff that is held.
In terms of the "account information", even an email can be viewed as "personal information", along with payment details.
Now saying that, and this is where the greyness kicks in, is if the Game account name is "personal information"... in my mind it is.
Now, NCsoft already have an account transfer system setup for Aion EU, where you have to login to your master account page to then transfer your Aion game information over to Gameforge.
You cannot login to Aion (on gameforge) and expect your characters and stuff to be present without doing this, even though Ncsoft no longer have *nothing* to do with the day to day running of Aion in the EU region.
I would expect something similar to happen if City of heroes was passed onto a 3rd party (at least for EU account holders).
If it's a choice between no game at all or starting fresh, I'd be perfectly willing to start all over and I'd like to think a fair number of other people would be as well.
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I would as well. Although some restructuring would be wise in that case. For instance the auctionhouse would need to be accessible by a base number to even be viable. And with the auctionhouse comes IOs and the entire crafting system.|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
If it's a choice between no game at all or starting fresh, I'd be perfectly willing to start all over and I'd like to think a fair number of other people would be as well.
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I DO think it might be a good time to eliminate base salvage and brainstorms from the system though.
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.
If the game is "saved" we are very likely looking at a complete wipe of all data. I was talking with my friends about that, which is why I haven't been putting in an extra time in CoH. (never mind the fact I am too busy to play)
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I know this is probably covered by the EULA, but I'm not certain where. Asked another way, if the game is sold after shutdown how will the new owners know about things like veteran status or prior purchases?
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.