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Which has been offered. The offer was rebuked; as were all offers.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The price would be in the millions.
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The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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Careful or else the "cause" might work so well that no company/investor would want to do buisness with them and thus the IP stays on the shelf anyways due to lack of buyers when they are ready to sell.
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Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
Give 'em Hell.
Let them know if this game dies, they will never be forgiven. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
The "PR apocalypse" is quite exaggerated. their ideas so far are comment bombing (which goes mainly ignored and just makes them look petty/crazy) and a few blogs. The time for TRUE media attention was the first few weeks after the announcement, and it never made a big splash aside from gaming MMOs and blogs. Unfortunately CoH isn't big news...because it's not a big game. I am not saying that to be mean...it's a reality.
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Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil
I'm almost afraid to post this, since doubt can be a very powerful thing, but....
Could this story of possibly selling after the shutdown just be a move on NCsoft's part to help dispel the huge post-shutdown negative PR apocalypse that they know is coming? My reasoning is this: --NCsoft already gave us some BS about "exhausting all (selling) options". --The shutdown date is a definite "start" time for us to take the gloves off and bring as much PR pain as possible. Hinting at the possibility that the game could only be sold after the shutdown might be an attempt to disorganize our efforts (by causing doubt via making us wonder if we still could save the game) and lighten the ton of bricks we plan on dropping (since some players will still be wary of irritating them to the point where they don't sell). Thougts? Please, please, PLEASE pick my reasoning apart and show me that I'm just plain WRONG! I want CoH to get its wakie and be back up and running! |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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The offer that was made by some guy who knows some guy? Or the offer by that person who knows someone who worked at Paragon? Or are you simply referring to the inquiry made by filing a support ticket? I get these "facts" all messed up 
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Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
Which has been offered. The offer was rebuked; as were all offers.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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And who what when how was these offers peresented and made? |
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
Which has been offered. The offer was rebuked; as were all offers.
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You know, especially prior to Aug 31st. If someone gave information with no source, including some of the people that just takes these things as facts, it would have been assumed to be false. Even today, by one person who gave out this information in the OP, when someone stated something about another poster, first thing was asked was evidence.
Hell even NCsoft released an officialy statement about the situtation, although a little, but more than what has been offered about the other side, yet that has been called bs. A statement from the company that has the IP and probably closer to the deal than anything. Yet, it's bs because they didnt say how they came to that conclusion. But any joe that says an offer was made, as long as it suits Titan in their campaign against NCSoft, dont need any evidence just hearsay and it's taken as fact.
I guess unlike everyone else who have to provide evidence to every claim they made on these forums, they are above that requirement because they are Titan Network huh. Very interesting, especially coming from a group that calls an official statement bs because NCSoft did not provide details but have not presented any details themselves. Rule dont apply to Titan network it seems. Even the rules they press onto others and the people there have pressed unto others here, dont apply to them. They are exempt and everythign they say and hear second third or fourth hand is supposed to be taken as fact.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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From another company it would be much more likely accepted. NCsoft's history in legal matters does nothing for their credibility when giving such a short answer.
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
Hell even NCsoft released an officialy statement about the situtation, although a little, but more than what has been offered about the other side, yet that has been called bs. A statement from the company that has the IP and probably closer to the deal than anything. Yet, it's bs because they didnt say how they came to that conclusion.
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How dare you demand anything but hearsay as evidence!
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
And who what when how was these offers peresented and made?
You know, especially prior to Aug 31st. If someone gave information with no source, including some of the people that just takes these things as facts, it would have been assumed to be false. Even today, by one person who gave out this information in the OP, when someone stated something about another poster, first thing was asked was evidence. Hell even NCsoft released an officialy statement about the situtation, although a little, but more than what has been offered about the other side, yet that has been called bs. A statement from the company that has the IP and probably closer to the deal than anything. Yet, it's bs because they didnt say how they came to that conclusion. But any joe that says an offer was made, as long as it suits Titan in their campaign against NCSoft, dont need any evidence just hearsay and it's taken as fact. I guess unlike everyone else who have to provide evidence to every claim they made on these forums, they are above that requirement because they are Titan Network huh. Very interesting, especially coming from a group that calls an official statement bs because NCSoft did not provide details but have not presented any details themselves. Rule dont apply to Titan network it seems. Even the rules they press onto others and the people there have pressed unto others here, dont apply to them. They are exempt and everythign they say and hear second third or fourth hand is supposed to be taken as fact. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Traditionally, there are three types of valuation.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
500K out of billions are pennies and not everyone bother picking up every single penny on the street they see although it would add value to their pocket.
Then again maybe they are just fine with it being worth zero. They dont seem to be hurting for cash and if no one makes an offer worth doingthe paper work over, then there would be no point. I might have a car that is sitting outside paid for but dont drive it. Doesnt mean just because someone offer 100 dollars for it and that is 100 dollars that I didnt have, doesnt mean I'm just going to take it. For 100 dollars that car will just sit there then even though that car is not gaining value and probably losing value. If I was hurting for money and had a use for it, then yeah, I might entertain the offer. 15 billion. Did I say million. That was suppose to be 15 billion but yeah I think Facebook is worth a couple of hundred billions now. and with the profit. I'm not sure if it was profitable or not but one of the dings being used against NCSoft is that the game was profitable and they shut it down so why would they entertain an offer of 500k for a profitable game? But as you said, sitting the the shelf, the IP is zero, yes if they was intending on selling it. If not, then it might come in handy down the line and by keeping it, they will save millions by not having to recreate everything over again. It's already there. But if an offer of 500k was actually made, then apparently NCSoft didnt think that offer was worth it either and thus didnt bite. It might be only worth 500k for the buyer or what ever couch change they just happen to have in their pocket, but it seems NCSoft thinks it's worth more than that. Value works in two fold, the value to the buyer, then you have value to the seller. When those number dont meet up, the buyer walks away empty handed while the seller or holder of the property still have their property and loses nothing. Not everyone go around chasing every relative penny that comes across their desk. |
One is present value valuation. You calculate every dollar you'll ever get from it in the future, adjust those future dollars for inflation. Calculating the value this way obviously requires some assumptions be made - what is the future money you'll get from it, what's the interest rate. In 1981 I got a Bachelor of Actuarial Science degree, and I can B.S. about this all day. But sometimes the calculation is easy. The present value of zero future income is zero.
Then there's market value, the greatest price someone is willing to pay. Now, neither you nor I know what offers are coming in, but you seem to be working from the assumption that the highest offer they got was 500K. If so, then the market value of CoH is 500K. (If someone made an offer of 500K on signing the deal and 500K in a year, it would not be a 1M offer, the 500K would be divided by (1+interest rate). If the offer was, say, 500K plus 10% of all gross profits for the first four years, the calculation gets more complex.) (Damn I'm B.S.ing again)
Those are the two monetary forms of valuation. If your sole goal is maximizing assets, those are the two forms you use - and corporations exist to maximize shareholder value. So the only rational reason to turn down an offer for 500K is either you are expecting a higher offer or you expect future income that would exceed 500K. If I was an NCSoft shareholder, I'd want a really good explanation of why it was turned down. Because both with what NCSoft has shown it can do, and its history with other game IP, the argument that there will be an future value without a sale is farfetched. (Frankly, of the games they killed, if they were to pick one to revisit, I'd pick AutoAssault - it's still a mostly open concept, and more easily adopted worldwide.)
Now yes, for individuals, there's also emotional value. As I'm sitting here typing, I have a cat named Odis wandering around on my desk. Future income is probably zero, discounting a potential video sent to America's Funniest Home Videos. Market price would be very low, he's a mixed breed and nothing inherently different from him and a million cats in shelters. But he's my bud and he's not for sale, period. As an individual, I can do that, because it's my money. If, say, the CEO won't sell to save face or he's got some emotional attachment to the games he funded, he's funding his emotion with the shareholder's money, not his.
And you keep saying 500K is pennies. No, it's not. It may not be the biggest inflow of cash - but if someone hacked into their bank account and transferred 500K out, they wouldn't consider it just "pennies" and let it go.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Wow... Don't they teach you anything in school these days?|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
sounds nice> i like the ring of that. Of course it would have to live up to that name.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
BTW, re the thread. Until the "people in the know" quit hiding what they "know", I'm calling BS on all of it.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I'm starting to wonder if any offer, serious offer was made, or are they going there half butt then stating that NCSoft is ignoring them wrongly when their approach and possible offer was bogus to begin with. |
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
The offer that was made by some guy who knows some guy? Or the offer by that person who knows someone who worked at Paragon? Or are you simply referring to the inquiry made by filing a support ticket? I get these "facts" all messed up
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I wouldnt be suprised if their "offer" consisted of calling customer service and saying, "hey I'll buy the IP for $5." Then go over to Titan saying that NCSoft turned down a "reasonable" offer just to work people up in a frenzy over there. Or they probably sent the offer over facebook. Or thought about making an offer for $10 million then realized they didnt have ten million and assumed that NCSoft would ignored them anyways so just said that ncsoft ignored another reasonable offer.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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of course I know what it means. You suggested it to be funny so you got a funny reply.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Wow... Don't they teach you anything in school these days?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution BTW, re the thread. Until the "people in the know" quit hiding what they "know", I'm calling BS on all of it. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Now who's making outrageous assumptions? :P
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
I wouldnt be suprised if their "offer" consisted of calling customer service and saying, "hey I'll buy the IP for $5." Then go over to Titan saying that NCSoft turned down a "reasonable" offer just to work people up in a frenzy over there. Or they probably sent the offer over facebook. Or thought about making an offer for $10 million then realized they didnt have ten million and assumed that NCSoft would ignored them anyways so just said that ncsoft ignored another reasonable offer.
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Well the credibility of the "otherside" information is not much better if not the same level as NCSoft. They are not exactly the most unbiased honest people around. |
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
From another company it would be much more likely accepted. NCsoft's history in legal matters does nothing for their credibility when giving such a short answer.
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Of course not on a legal standpoint.
But then again, if their reputation was that bad, why was it ok and generally accepted as fact of any statement they put out until aug 31st? Prior to that if anyone argued the credibility of NCSoft statements, they were immediately flamed. So what changed now? Not many including some of those that are now tooting how terribel reputation NCSoft has, wasnt making a single bit of fuss about it for years, that is until Aug. 31st and some of those same ones flamed people for bringing up NCSoft reputation over the tabula rasa fiasco. But since AUg 31st, the same statements they furiously flamed other people for over teh years, now everyone suppose to quote their bad reputation. Why is their reputation a problem now when it never was the entire time they had this game? There word was treated as final but now, since Aug. 31st it suppose to be treated like bs. I would understand more if that fiasco happened after aug 31st but that happened in what 2009-2010 Two to three years ago? Fine then why not now?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Well then I guess you should have known that BEFORE they cancelled CoH But it didn't matter then because it didn't affect your game. You know what I think would be hilarious if NCSoft was reading the forums (which I am pretty sure they have someone who does)...and they said "You know what..we can show them dishonest..." and shuts the servers down on 11/29/2012.
I have more faith in NCsoft's statement than I do from someone who knows someone who knows someone. And since no one can PROVE NCSoft is lying....
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
From another company it would be much more likely accepted. NCsoft's history in legal matters does nothing for their credibility when giving such a short answer.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Yes, because we've seen the progress done on Tabula Ras 2 and Auto Assault Retuned.|
Originally Posted by Brillig
Except this is not the way they think. Remember that there's also the right to make a second game based on the Cryptic engine and IP. Those rights could be valueless, or they could be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. NCSoft may not want to sell one without the other, as just selling the existing game could lead to interesting situations down the road (having to compete directly with the buyers, or the buyers trashing the IP so badly that a sequel tanks). NCSoft will have to take all that in consideration even if there are absolutely no plans to make a sequel.
Because of that, if you're bidding for CoH, I suspect you're going to have to be bidding for both the existing game and the rights to the sequel. That's why $500k would never cut it. |
And if you're planning on doing a sequel to a game, the first thing you do is turn down the people who know it best when they say they want to do it and then fire everyone who knows the engine and the IP.
If the CEO really is turning down deals that actually put cash in the pocket for the idea that somehow they'd do a future game and make lots of money (particularly when the people who remember the name "City of Heroes" will be the ones who will remember "Oh yeah, NCSoft is the jackass company that shut them down"), NCSoft has bigger problems than I thought.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Not THAT outrageous when you consider a support ticket was used in an attempt to open up an official discussion regarding the sale of CoH.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Now who's making outrageous assumptions? :P
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Umm... I didn't suggest it... That was my first post in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
of course I know what it means. You suggested it to be funny so you got a funny reply.
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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And no more outrageous than certain people assuming that was the entire basis for the "ignoring offers" claim. |
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Not THAT outrageous when you consider a support ticket was used in an attempt to open up an official discussion regarding the sale of CoH.
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PSSST Not everyone is boycotting NCSoft. Not everyone thinks they are in the wrong for closing CoH. Need proof...go to GW2 and join one of the MANY guilds started by CoHers after 8/31 Need more proof... How many people ARE involved over at Titan...200? Out of 50,000.... hmmm. The ANTI NCSoft group is not nearly as big as some would have you think
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Yes, because we've seen the progress done on Tabula Ras 2 and Auto Assault Retuned.
And if you're planning on doing a sequel to a game, the first thing you do is turn down the people who know it best when they say they want to do it and then fire everyone who knows the engine and the IP. If the CEO really is turning down deals that actually put cash in the pocket for the idea that somehow they'd do a future game and make lots of money (particularly when the people who remember the name "City of Heroes" will be the ones who will remember "Oh yeah, NCSoft is the jackass company that shut them down"), NCSoft has bigger problems than I thought. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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you missed the keywords there. I didnt say "they are" and "that was" the offers as people sayign about he offers that "supposedly" exists. I said I wouldnt be surprised if that turned out to be the case.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Now who's making outrageous assumptions? :P
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Please read more carefully I used the word: AN ..indicating ONE. Nowhere did I say ENTIRE/ALL. The fact that A communication of that nature is considered official inquiry is laughable. The "offers" are hearsay...not exactly what one considers proof
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
And no more outrageous than certain people assuming that was the entire basis for the "ignoring offers" claim.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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There's a difference between boycott and "I hate that NCSoft shut my game down".
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
PSSST Not everyone is boycotting NCSoft. Not everyone thinks they are in the wrong for closing CoH. Need proof...go to GW2 and join one of the MANY guilds started by CoHers after 8/31
Need more proof... How many people ARE involved over at Titan...200? Out of 50,000.... hmmm. The ANTI NCSoft group is not nearly as big as some would have you think |
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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They probably get more than that measly 500k by writing it off as a tax write off then selling it for what ever down the road if they chose to. Or better yet, they can get more than 500k from tax write off and keep it instead of taking 500k and having nothing.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Traditionally, there are three types of valuation.
One is present value valuation. You calculate every dollar you'll ever get from it in the future, adjust those future dollars for inflation. Calculating the value this way obviously requires some assumptions be made - what is the future money you'll get from it, what's the interest rate. In 1981 I got a Bachelor of Actuarial Science degree, and I can B.S. about this all day. But sometimes the calculation is easy. The present value of zero future income is zero. Then there's market value, the greatest price someone is willing to pay. Now, neither you nor I know what offers are coming in, but you seem to be working from the assumption that the highest offer they got was 500K. If so, then the market value of CoH is 500K. (If someone made an offer of 500K on signing the deal and 500K in a year, it would not be a 1M offer, the 500K would be divided by (1+interest rate). If the offer was, say, 500K plus 10% of all gross profits for the first four years, the calculation gets more complex.) (Damn I'm B.S.ing again) Those are the two monetary forms of valuation. If your sole goal is maximizing assets, those are the two forms you use - and corporations exist to maximize shareholder value. So the only rational reason to turn down an offer for 500K is either you are expecting a higher offer or you expect future income that would exceed 500K. If I was an NCSoft shareholder, I'd want a really good explanation of why it was turned down. Because both with what NCSoft has shown it can do, and its history with other game IP, the argument that there will be an future value without a sale is farfetched. (Frankly, of the games they killed, if they were to pick one to revisit, I'd pick AutoAssault - it's still a mostly open concept, and more easily adopted worldwide.) Now yes, for individuals, there's also emotional value. As I'm sitting here typing, I have a cat named Odis wandering around on my desk. Future income is probably zero, discounting a potential video sent to America's Funniest Home Videos. Market price would be very low, he's a mixed breed and nothing inherently different from him and a million cats in shelters. But he's my bud and he's not for sale, period. As an individual, I can do that, because it's my money. If, say, the CEO won't sell to save face or he's got some emotional attachment to the games he funded, he's funding his emotion with the shareholder's money, not his. And you keep saying 500K is pennies. No, it's not. It may not be the biggest inflow of cash - but if someone hacked into their bank account and transferred 500K out, they wouldn't consider it just "pennies" and let it go. |
Plus who knows, it might be the majors investors, one alone is probably worth more than 500k, that said dont sell.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Yeah those people all moved on to other games...ChO, DCUO, SWTOR, TSW, and GW2
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
There's a difference between boycott and "I hate that NCSoft shut my game down".
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Let them know if this game dies, they will never be forgiven.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU