Is GW2 the new business model for MMO's?
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2012-09-18 11:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Actually it's an old business model, see Diablo II with Battlenet.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
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I'd much rather MMOs go in that direction, than what seems to already be happening, where what traditionally were offline single player games (with or without an online component) move that direction (i.e. Diablo 3, where a net connection is required at all times to play, or the EA games that require a net connection but don't actually have online modes).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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The first Guild Wars launched a year after CoX did with the exact same business model, and it didn't sweep the world in 2005.
I think F2P is the model: buy the game, no subscription fee, but they nickel and dime you for everything.
GW2 does have a cash shop, but it's mostly for convenience/vanity items (extra bank space, costumes, etc.). The content is all "free" once you buy the box.
I think the Turbine F2P model used by DDO and LOTRO is the future. They seem to be doing pretty well with it.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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True, but D2 wasn't an MMO. It's closer to FPS shooters where you can get together with some friends (or strangers!) to play, but with a centralized hub (Bnet) instead of individually hosted servers.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Actually it's an old business model, see Diablo II with Battlenet.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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An interesting thing is that the items in the 'cash shop' can actually be had without spending any money, since the in-game currency can be converted to the cash shop currency. (not that that changes your point or anything |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
TGW2 does have a cash shop, but it's mostly for convenience/vanity items (extra bank space, costumes, etc.). The content is all "free" once you buy the box.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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No.
For now, GW is making money, it better be. They spent a bucket load in ads last quarter, enough to drive the company into the red when the game didnt ship in time.
That aside, though (because that line of thought gets me grumpy) GW2 sales will slow down drastically. Once this happens, the only source of income will be gone. Expansions are expensive to develop, and the team already has shown this game is overwhelming them so I doubt they cant push out an expansion in a timely manner needed to keep the profits moving in.
GW2 WILL become heavy on the micro transaction side. For now it's just cosmetic stuff, but expect PayToWin potions in the market eventually.
Anyways, truth is, lately, with the increase on Facebook games you get to play for free, and entirely free AND amazing games you can play on your phone, players are less and less likely to pay up front for anything. New flashy things get some time in the light and make some money, but that well dries up fast. It is also why few MMOs launch as free to pay (for now.)
The publishers know the first wave of users will be very willing to pay big money up front. Why say no to that money? Get the up-front box sales money, and as soon as you see numbers drop enough, you make it a free to play game at heart (Look at DCUO, Champions, Star Trek Online and Star Wars Galaxies, leaving out D&D Online and Lord of the Rings Online since those likely published under the old mindset, not with a roadmap to go free.)
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It actually amplifies my point. Yes, since you can convert in-game gold to "gems" to buy stuff, then you need never give them another cent to play the game "FOREVER".|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
An interesting thing is that the items in the 'cash shop' can actually be had without spending any money, since the in-game currency can be converted to the cash shop currency. (not that that changes your point or anything
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Of course, Guild Wars did come out with for-pay expansions, but they were about once a year or so, and again, once you buy the box, you get everything. I expect GW2 will follow this model.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I don't know... I may just not even play MMO's. COH was the first MMO I have played and I have only dabbled in a few others and didn't really like them.
I just don't like the idea of spending money and playing a game and than "poof" it's all gone and all the time and money you spent is gone. Atleast with consoles and PC games you can keep them and replay them. I suppose some console and PC games go out and you can't play them again because the technology has been upgraded but the game has not.
One thing I like about MMO's as opposed to a console or PC game is the depth and "ongoingness" of it.
If COH does go down than I may go to WOW. Just for the fact that it feels "safer." I know realistically it probably isn't but it just feels that way. I know WOW has lost subscribers but they have around 9 million people and so I can't imagine logging in one day and being surprised and completely taken off guard by a message that says the game is done!
F2P isn't necessarily a bad model - there's good F2P and bad F2P. I can't recall who but someone in the forum here recently summed up CoH's model as "too restrictive at the lower tiers and too generous at the higher tiers" and I'd agree with that. Compared with LOTRO (for example) CoH's model was more of a very extended trial than true F2P. In the very competitive MMO market we have now it's not a good idea to make your casual players feel quite so much like second class citizens.
As for Guild Wars 2... it had a great launch, but that doesn't count for much - just look at SWTOR. What it looks like a year from now will be the measure of its success.
Edit: I'm not suggesting for a moment that GW2 will be a disaster on the level of TOR, but I do wonder how many of its current players will stay with it long term. Players migrating en masse from the big game of the moment to the Next Big Thing seems to be the norm these days.
It's an F2P model with an up-front fee. What does that make it?
Frankie says it best.
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LOTRO's F2P was terrible. You think COH made you feel like a second class citizen? Well at least you could still leave Atlas Park. You could still level up to 50. You could still access missions in other zones.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
F2P isn't necessarily a bad model - there's good F2P and bad F2P. I can't recall who but someone in the forum here recently summed up CoH's model as "too restrictive at the lower tiers and too generous at the higher tiers" and I'd agree with that. Compared with LOTRO (for example) CoH's model was more of a very extended trial than true F2P. In the very competitive MMO market we have now it's not a good idea to make your casual players feel quite so much like second class citizens.
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They added the Lone Lands to the free zones last year, so you can now level (almost) halfway to cap before being pushed to the shop, and by that time you'll almost certainly have earned enough turbine points in-game to afford the next quest pack.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
LOTRO's F2P was terrible. You think COH made you feel like a second class citizen? Well at least you could still leave Atlas Park. You could still level up to 50. You could still access missions in other zones.
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For me the two biggest mistakes CoH's model made was locking IOs and Incarnates behind the cash shop and/or VIP. Sure, CoH didn't even have IOs until I8, but that was then and this is now. Modern MMO players expect things like loot, a crafting system and an in-game auction house as a core part of the game, not an optional extra.
As for Incarnates - whilst I personally don't care about endgame and never did, many (most?) people do. Again, it's a core part of MMOs - F2P or otherwise.
That's why I describe it as a glorified trial - and bear in mind that's the experience of someone with a couple of years of Paragon Rewards from my previous subscribed time. A brand new player would have had an even more restricted experience.
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I don't think the IO system had to be unlocked, but do think the SO/DO system needed a heavy revamp. |
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
For me the two biggest mistakes CoH's model made was locking IOs and Incarnates behind the cash shop and/or VIP. Sure, CoH didn't even have IOs until I8, but that was then and this is now. Modern MMO players expect things like loot, a crafting system and an in-game auction house as a core part of the game, not an optional extra.
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I would have created a few multi-trait enhancements, and simplified the enhancement typing (1 plain mez enhancement instead of 7 for each type, imagine if you required 8 damage type enhancement types?!)
The ability to have more recharge and endurance without heavy sacrifice alone would have made F2P play much more appealing.
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Lifetime LOTRO subber and founder here, just so I'm not misunderstood as not knowing enough. I still PvP there.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
They added the Lone Lands to the free zones last year, so you can now level (almost) halfway to cap before being pushed to the shop, and by that time you'll almost certainly have earned enough turbine points in-game to afford the next quest pack.
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The Lone Lands is one of the worst zones in the game. Seriously, it's an AWFUL zone. It's mono-chromatic, depressing, and boring. And the fact you can level to 30 in the game before being directed to the cash shop doesn't refute my point.
In COH you could level all the way up, and play the entire vanilla game, without having to buy anything.
The goal of a successful F2P model is not to encourage players to play free forever and feel they don't need to ever spend any money.
The goal is to make the barrier of entry extremely easy, you want to lure the player and just give enough to make them not uninstall the thing because they hit a brick wall, although mind you, a brick wall should exist at some point. You just want to make sure it's not hit in week one of play time.
A successful F2P model will have a higher percentage of players spending money in the game, either by VIP upgrades or paying for unlockables.
If anything, sometimes I do think CoH gave away too much in its F2P model, and veterans were given so many perks that many felt they were free to stop giving the game any more money, therefore they stopped doing so. I would be hated but I would have instituted a half or 2/3rds xp rewards for the F2P player, with boosts available either via purchase or via referral rewards (that’s the second thing you want out of F2P players, a LOT of referrals.)
This is also the reason why I think Starwars TOR free 2 play will fail, it still will require you to purchase a code to get started.
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No, it'll pretty much fail because it's a terrible game.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
This is also the reason why I think Starwars TOR free 2 play will fail, it still will require you to purchase a code to get started.
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The only thing worth doing in that game is playing all the storylines through. Once. As quickly as you can. Which would make it worthwhile as a single-player game, but unless they're going to charge people for the story arcs, then they're going to fail as F2P as they have as P2P, because there's nothing worth longevity in that game.
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I know enough people that love the game as it stands. It just needs LOTS of high level content. TOR is a story MMO, once you are done you are done. They need to overload that game with content ASAP.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
No, it'll pretty much fail because it's a terrible game.
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Shortly before this game was announced I started a new character. I was shocked how much content CoH has now. I am not sure I'll be able to eat through it all before shutdown, and then there are many arcs (especially the core Pretoria startup line) that can play in so many different ways.
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| Once. As quickly as you can. |
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No, you're wrong, and you don't know me at all.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I think this is why the game didn't click with you. That's not a game you play "as quickly as you can", it is a game that (until they add end game content) is just about the quest. If you rush it... what's the point?
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I'm saying that since the rest of the game is terrible, it's worth minimizing your time there. Play the story quest and enjoy it, then GTFO.
The game didn't click with me because it was TERRIBLE. And had no content aside from the "third pillar" in which choices did not matter, repeatable/grindy content was the name of the game, and the game's base performance metric sucked on most computers.
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Actually, the first GW launched with the buy the box and play free model, with paid expansion packs. They didn't add a cash shop until later.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
The first Guild Wars launched a year after CoX did with the exact same business model, and it didn't sweep the world in 2005.
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First off, you can clarify your point without getting all worked up. I was just replying to your point about rushing through based on the statements given by you.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
No, you're wrong, and you don't know me at all.
I'm saying that since the rest of the game is terrible, it's worth minimizing your time there. Play the story quest and enjoy it, then GTFO. The game didn't click with me because it was TERRIBLE. And had no content aside from the "third pillar" in which choices did not matter, repeatable/grindy content was the name of the game, and the game's base performance metric sucked on most computers. |
So, taking this as a clarification, OK, see where you coming from. I have not played the game myself so I can't argue it. All I can say is everyone I know seems to enjoy it all the way through until they run out of content. I have heard minimal complaints about the gameplay, although admittedly nor have I heard any high praises either.
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Sorry, I'm a wee bit bitter about that game.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
First off, you can clarify your point without getting all worked up. I was just replying to your point about rushing through based on the statements given by you.
So, taking this as a clarification, OK, see where you coming from. I have not played the game myself so I can't argue it. All I can say is everyone I know seems to enjoy it all the way through until they run out of content. I have heard minimal complaints about the gameplay, although admittedly nor have I heard any high praises either. |
But yeah, it took a whole gaming guild of 50+ people, gaming together for 2+ years in a very tight-knit community, most of whom are rabid fans of both Star Wars and MMOs, and within 2 months most of them could not bear to log into it because it was just bad. And these are some people who were ready and willing to completely overlook the warts and love that game.
The co-op story mode was fine and fun. I would have paid for a single-player or co-op version.
But the actual gameplay was little more than WoW-with-lightsabers, and the content had zero depth of play. Most of the systems were awful and balky (don't get me started on token drops, the UI, or the awful auctionhouse interface, gah) and it really seemed like they blew their whole wad on the story and forgot to develop the actual game to support it.
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Nobody has any idea about whether GW2 didn't meet an internal release date, but we do know whether it shipped in time: it did. They announced one date, and they met that date. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
No.
For now, GW is making money, it better be. They spent a bucket load in ads last quarter, enough to drive the company into the red when the game didnt ship in time. |
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Originally Posted by Starsman
That aside, though (because that line of thought gets me grumpy) GW2 sales will slow down drastically. Once this happens, the only source of income will be gone. Expansions are expensive to develop, and the team already has shown this game is overwhelming them so I doubt they cant push out an expansion in a timely manner needed to keep the profits moving in.
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- Guild Wars: Prophecies was released April 28, 2005.
- Guild Wars: Factions was released April 28, 2006, exactly one year later.
- Guild Wars: Nightfall was released October 27, 2006, six months later.
- Guild Wars: Eye of the North was released August 31, 2007. A little under a year later. At the time of EotN's release, they had already started devoting resources to developing GW2, and designed EotN as an expansion, as opposed to the full campaigns of Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall, to bridge the gap between them. They have said in interviews that they were becoming very adept at creating expansions within their development house, and could have kept churning them out at a six-month to one-year timeframe, but chose to develop a new game instead so that they would have a stronger base to work from.
These were full-featured expansions with dozens of hours of gameplay and at least as much new explorable landmass as Going Rogue, if not more. They chose to stick to the "buy the box, buy the expansions, play the game" model in GW2 because they believed it was more than profitable enough for GW1. This was back in the heyday of WoW, long before big-name F2P MMOs were a thing, and subscriptions were the order of the day.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
GW2 WILL become heavy on the micro transaction side. For now it's just cosmetic stuff, but expect PayToWin potions in the market eventually.
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For the record, I never spent a dime on GW1 on anything besides the boxes, and I completed everything but the hardest two dungeons in the game. Solo. I could have easily done those dungeons too if I'd felt like joining a team or working out a more clever hero build, but I didn't.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Anyways, truth is, lately, with the increase on Facebook games you get to play for free, and entirely free AND amazing games you can play on your phone, players are less and less likely to pay up front for anything. New flashy things get some time in the light and make some money, but that well dries up fast. It is also why few MMOs launch as free to pay (for now.)
The publishers know the first wave of users will be very willing to pay big money up front. Why say no to that money? Get the up-front box sales money, and as soon as you see numbers drop enough, you make it a free to play game at heart (Look at DCUO, Champions, Star Trek Online and Star Wars Galaxies, leaving out D&D Online and Lord of the Rings Online since those likely published under the old mindset, not with a roadmap to go free.) |
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2 Million units shipped in 2 weeks @ $50/unit. I think they got their money's worth from their marketing dept. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
No.
For now, GW is making money, it better be. They spent a bucket load in ads last quarter, enough to drive the company into the red when the game didnt ship in time. |
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That aside, though (because that line of thought gets me grumpy) GW2 sales will slow down drastically. Once this happens, the only source of income will be gone. Expansions are expensive to develop, and the team already has shown this game is overwhelming them so I doubt they cant push out an expansion in a timely manner needed to keep the profits moving in. GW2 WILL become heavy on the micro transaction side. For now it's just cosmetic stuff, but expect PayToWin potions in the market eventually. |
Seeing as bascailly every MMO from the eastern world has the F2P + Cashshop model I'm pretty sure that's where the money is
I must admit that I like the idea of buying a game and not having to pay the monthly fee and also not being nerfed by F2P. The F2P option for most games are not very good.
In some ways I would like to see GW2 be successful because in general I would like to see MMO's go in this direction.