Ghost's Origin?

That's a pretty good idea, actually. Ghost characters tend to have the "Clones of Myself Mastermind" problem of their nature defining what they ARE but not what they DO. This line of thinking actually uses a person's living past to describe his afterlife, and it's a very clever way to avoid an otherwise difficulty question.

To me, it's more of a catchall in cases where nothing else applies. What origin should an alien from outer space who was born able to control energy and channel it be? She's not using machines so she's not tech, she's not using magic because that's not magic, she hasn't been mutated and isn't born different. She's just sort of able to do this and has become good at it. It just doesn't fit any of the other origins.

And no, an "alien" origin doesn't cut it, because then we have to make the distinction between alien tech and human tech such as Rikti vs Praetorians, we have to make the distinction about alien magic (say, Mumra, the ever living) vs. human magic and so forth. Origins are not races, is what I'm saying, and they shouldn't be tied to races lest they start folding in on themselves.

But you are correct - you can argue that magical beings and robots and ghosts are "natural" if there exists an entire race of the things, or at least such existed at one point. My personal breakdown is that anything which is unique or at least exceedingly rare, and was ALWAYS unique or rare, probably isn't "Natural." If, for instance, you're one of 15 super robots a single creator made before he died and now the other 14 have been destroyed, you're probably Tech. If, by contrast, you come from a whole society, a whole race of robots who have enough of a population to maintain their species, or did at some point, you could be Natural. You don't HAVE to be, but you could if you wanted.

As you say, all of it is academic, so no-one is ever "wrong" with the origins they pick. I just like to have some kind of logical reason to pick one origin over another without needing to close my eyes and go "eenie meenie miney mo." I don't really expect everyone to agree with mine, but I still feel people who care about concept really should have at least some kind of ruleset of their own about which origin means what to them.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Please go back to my post and read past where I say that. The rest of the post clarifies why it can't be rejected so much as it needs to be explained a little better, is all.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This sums up precisely what I was about to type. One thing that bothers me about the natural origin is that all the origins are "natural" in the context of CoH's fictional setting. One could even legitimately argue that magic is a natural part of its fictional universe that humans simply use to their advantage, and therefore should either be considered natural for magical beings or science for humans - and in doing so, we've eliminated "magic" entirely as an origin. Natural makes intuitive sense for a character like Batman, but by also squeezing characters like Superman and concepts like the energy-alien Peacebringers into it, it gets seriously muddled. If Superman's abilities are natural, how about a dragon and its fire-breathing powers? If a dragon fits too, then what about a fairy? That's why, in choosing origins, I worry less about the technical origin and more about the story genre the character fits into. Ghosts, for the most part, would count as magic to me simply because their origins are supernatural. Part of the beauty of the game, though, is being able to pick any origin for any character to create your own unique take on it.

I did read past it, but I still don't see the point of bringing it up.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Only if you're willing to stretch a point to a ridiculous level. Of course, as we can see here, lots of people are perfectly willing to do so.

This is the crux of the problem. I would have avoided it by declaring non-magical alien beings to be of Mutant origin for game purposes, even if their abilities are common to their species. Of course I wouldn't have had a "Natural" origin either; I would have used something like "Spiritual" for highly-trained types. (Back in my old tabletop game a "natural" super was one whose powers developed without outside stimulus, what most settings call a "mutant". I did things like that deliberately to break preconceived notions.)

If no one can be wrong then no one can be right either, which makes choice of origin little more than "what ranged innate power do you want?"

False. There are natural laws, even in a world like City's. City's world allows things to happen in defiance of those laws; those things are unnatural or supernatural.

Because not even Batman can train himself to come back from the dead.

I have already demonstrated that a being with such an origin is considered Magic in the canon. If that is not sufficient to carry the day then I can't help you; if you're hell-bent on being wrong it's your problem.

You're the first.

Correct.

Correct.

An analogous, and equally as crazy, statement is: "most hero characters have numerical statistics, but the game allows some characters not to."

Canonically untrue.

And yet, I feel you are so very willing to make it your own.

Leo has said this much better than I could have.

But to be fair, let's explore the assumption that our characters must adhere strictly to existing canon/lore Can one our lore experts please point me to where it states "all ghosts are magical in origin"?

Not "This ghost character is Magic origin", or "This group of ghosts are all Magic origin." I'd like to see where it says there is no other possible origin for ghosts than Magic.

Not meant to be snarky, I'd really like to see it.

I would argue that the fact that they are possible makes them natural by definition. They're not possible in the real world, but obviously Paragon City is not in the real world.

Then you can completely erase the Magic origin, because if everything is "natural" then magic is really science.

nor is batman the sole definiton of natural, he cant bench press himself into having an energy tapeworn either, but peacebringers are natural.
you showed that a ghost is considered magic origin, congrats, much like a living person, they have that capacity that is not a statement that can be generalized to all of them. numidia, the circle, kellie nemmers, they are clearly magic because they became as they are through magical means, or in kelly's case, they can still communicate because they had the powers of a medium while alive. metronome and mother mayhem also exhibit traits that could be considered close enough to being a ghost that you could just as easily make the case that a ghost could exist through technology or mutation, both are the disembodied personalities of dead people(Russel Brandt and Shalice Tillman). and you are ignoring the fact that in night ward you find ghosts of normal people with no defined magical origin, nor are the ghosts in croatoa specifically magical, they are being harassed by magic from the red caps and the cabal's experiments, but there is no indication that their powers come from the cabal's magic, just their increased aggressiveness. finally, do you have the background on the ghost ship form talos island? what magic origin does it have. you will have to bring a bit more data points than one character to prove a universal classification of ghosts.

oh and your earlier "proof" if you are talking about blind makwa, you are wrong. he is not surprised that he apparitions are not magic, he is surprised that black magic is not what is driving the spirits of the living (not the dead, also a key difference) to be violent. he is not stating that the magic would be their origin, he thought it was the origin of their problem, he makes no statement about the origin of the spirits themselves, of the living or the dead. very important distinction that pretty much deflates this point.

lol wat

They are not ghosts. Almost only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and nuclear war.

Those spirits are found in the magical afterlife world in which they belong. Were they to cross over into the world of the living they would be undead magical beings.

The game treats them all as Magic origin. They have powers associated with Magic in the canon (netherworld related), they drop Magic salvage and enhancements, they're vulnerable to magic items (divining rod, ghost slayer axe)...magic, magic, magic, magic. There is nothing about any of them that suggests they are anything but Magical creatures. If the only thing that is going to satisfy you is a red name telling you they're Magic origin say so now so I can stop taking you seriously.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ravenstorm

...Not to mention the entire Warshade AT...

Hey, by the way, how much Natural salvage do you have?

By you.

Metronome is a disembodied entity that can possess things. That seems like a ghost to me. By your own logic (ie. the Well is magic because it seems like magic) that makes him a ghost.

I don't think this is an indicator because Shivans are also vulnerable to the ghost slaying axe. The fact that those ghosts drop magic enhancements is really the only valid part of your argument, and I agree with it.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMM!

Wehehell, I'm sure once you come up with a precise formula for ghostly magical apparitions to definitively describe what exactly a ghost is, then yeah, almost wouldn't count.

Unfortunately, the meaning of life, the existence of an afterlife, souls, spirits and all that jazz are uncertain, at least in CoX to the extent that things are often confused when encountering them, run into difficulty dealing with them or discover outright contradictions to previous expectations.




As mentioned before, the ghost slaying axe may be magical but it targets *dead* things (not to be confused with *rotting* things which would be considered *dying* things), not magical dead things. Shivians are affected by the GSA but they aren't magical. Apparently one can be undead and not magical.

So your notion that undead and ghosts must be magical is right...until you introduce a circumstance that contradicts those notions (Metronome, Mother, Shivians)...then you're no longer right.

It will take more than you saying it to convince me. Even if you say it over and over again.

Seriously.

Ghosts do not have nanites and Nictus powers aren't netherworld-related.

Natural factions drop Tech salvage or both kinds.

He's not undead. Ghosts are undead. Insubstantial beings that are not undead are not ghosts.

Use one on a Vahzilok.

Or mistakenly flagged.

I would. I mean, I can but I don't actually just roll alts just because but I described several ways a 'ghost' can be natural and Venture didn't rage over those so I'd say they're good explanations.

Ah, no, you're wrong. He died and was recovered by Praetorian Penny Yin. Not that I suppose you're above saying this is actually a kind of resurrection that left him a non-undead but insubstantial entity with powers of possession.

Also, they have to be named Fred! You can't be a ghost if you're not a Fred!

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Umbral_Aura#Eclipse

Oh, no, they just involve soul manipulation, life force, and negative energy, none of which has anything to do with spirits. Spirits and souls are actually quite distinct, you see. Because of Fred.

Sure she does.