Super Strength Compared to Other Sets and Balance
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-08-06 12:03 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I haven't read that thread, but the easiest way I can think of is to only have Rage boost Smashing damage instead of all damage types, or buff the other types a smaller amount and/or for a shorter duration, like Embrace of Fire/old Fiery Embrace. With that change Rage affects every attack in Super Strength plus a few outside of it at full strength, but it would lessen the effect on Gloom, Burn, etc. - which would still benefit from the +tohit, even if there is no +damage.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I was looking for a way to reduce the overpoweredness of non-SS attacks buffed by Rage without gimping SS in the process.
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Whether or not that would "gimp" the set, since usually the best attack chains use a lot of external powers, remains to be seen.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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There are many things that can be done. My personal proposal is to turn Rage into a Toggle. Lower the boost to non-Smashing types to 40%, and apply the player a -res debuff (resistable) of -15% res.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I haven't read that thread, but the easiest way I can think of is to only have Rage boost Smashing damage instead of all damage types, or buff the other types a smaller amount and/or for a shorter duration, like Embrace of Fire/old Fiery Embrace. With that change Rage affects every attack in Super Strength plus a few outside of it at full strength, but it would lessen the effect on Gloom, Burn, etc. - which would still benefit from the +tohit, even if there is no +damage.
Whether or not that would "gimp" the set, since usually the best attack chains use a lot of external powers, remains to be seen. |
Rage was always meant to boost everything but come at a penalty. The penalty has never been tackled propperly, IMO, and double stacking not only negates the -def penalty but also increases the magnitude of Rage beyond what was intended.
There is another way I can think about Rage, and thats to just turn it into a Fiery Embrase-like power. This would mean that it activates bonus damage on all Super Strength attacks only. It still would require a penalty, but not that big of a penalty.
I said what I did because your view of balance only cares about single target damage and nothing else whatsoever - come on, you know that's a ridiculous view. When it comes to sets, you have to take everything into account, and if you disagree, feel free to send it to the developers, because they would be on my side, trust me.
EDIT: I'm not looking to argue - I was just stating that I found it surprising to see ice melee looking better than I thought it was on paper - I have a 50 SR/Ice and I was just asking if it felt so weak due to lack of burst, since much of it is slow DoT. I didn't find it fair to discount an entire set just because the single target damage was weak since according to that chart it has pretty high AOE damage.
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Thats a ridiculous conclussion. There are two minimum levels of performance for offensive sets, both independent: ST and AoE.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
I said what I did because your view of balance only cares about single target damage and nothing else whatsoever - come on, you know that's a ridiculous view.
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Just because you do very good AoE does not mean you are excused from having garbge ST damage. It's like a playground seesaw. Balance in game is not like a weight balance, but more like a Seesaw. The point is not to keep it horrizontally flat, but to compensate in one side for what is in the other without ever allowing either side to touch the ground.
From that point of view, Ice Melee didnt just hit the ground in the ST side, it broke through the ground and made a hole kids can't get out of without help.
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| I didn't find it fair to discount an entire set just because the single target damage was weak since according to that chart it has pretty high AOE damage. |
What's the source on this image?
And am I correct in reading it as showing Energy Melee as one of, if not -the- worst set based on these four metrics?
Simple answer to: How to Balance Super Strenght ?
The problem of the power set superiority damages is ONLY because of Rage stacks SO just FIX rage how it works. It means only make it work like hasten, don't change its base stats just simply make it not allow to stack rages buffs but make new buff replace last one AND move away the time penalty of 20seconds with no damages and -def: that will give any level SS the ability to permanently have a rage buff of 80% with no crash time and balancing then all pool and in the same time make it more playable and more fun for all.
In conclusion: RAGE NOT STACKABLE AND NO CRASH. Simple as that, no need to spend years debating this is the best and easiest fix to balance the pool (no stack = nerf but no crash = up =>Overall result is a balance of that power that allow to balance all SS set !)
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Exactly, which is why I found your post odd.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Thats a ridiculous conclussion. There are two minimum levels of performance for offensive sets, both independent: ST and AoE.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Just because you do very good AoE does not mean you are excused from having garbge ST damage.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
It's like a playground seesaw. Balance in game is not like a weight balance, but more like a Seesaw. The point is not to keep it horrizontally flat, but to compensate in one side for what is in the other without ever allowing either side to touch the ground.
From that point of view, Ice Melee didnt just hit the ground in the ST side, it broke through the ground and made a hole kids can't get out of without help. Look at Spines (not in this chart but ammong scrappers it IS also the worse ST set.) It's already confirmed to be getting a buff in I24, for the same reasons: Higher than average AoE performance does not justify mediocre ST performance. |
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I want to hear Arcanaville's answer to this.
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Originally Posted by Titan_Destroyer
Simple answer to: How to Balance Super Strenght ?
The problem of the power set superiority damages is ONLY because of Rage stacks SO just FIX rage how it works. It means only make it work like hasten, don't change its base stats just simply make it not allow to stack rages buffs but make new buff replace last one AND move away the time penalty of 20seconds with no damages and -def: that will give any level SS the ability to permanently have a rage buff of 80% with no crash time and balancing then all pool and in the same time make it more playable and more fun for all. In conclusion: RAGE NOT STACKABLE AND NO CRASH. Simple as that, no need to spend years debating this is the best and easiest fix to balance the pool (no stack = nerf but no crash = up =>Overall result is a balance of that power that allow to balance all SS set !) |
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False. The problem is not Rage stacking, it's how Rage affects powers that don't belong to Super Strength in addition to how stacking nullifies the -def penalty.|
Originally Posted by Titan_Destroyer
The problem of the power set superiority damages is ONLY because of Rage stacks SO just FIX rage how it works.
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Your solution retains the ability to buff outside powers and removes all penalties, it basically magnifies all that is wrong with the power.
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This chart is the result of an analysis I did long ago on offensive set balance. You do are reading it wrong, Energy Melee is showing at the top for single target, tied up with 2 other sets for 1.8 score.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
What's the source on this image? And am I correct in reading it as showing Energy Melee as one of, if not -the- worst set based on these four metrics? |
Since it's relatively old, it does not include any set introduced with or after GR launched (this means Kin Melee not there either)
On the blue number metrics, lower numbers are better. EM gets a good endurance cost score thanks to Energy Transfer being mostly powered by your HP instead of your endurance.
EM does suck for AoE.
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Ice Melee looks to have better AoE than how it feels in play because of Frost. The metric just goes on total damage, without taking into account that it is a rather slow DoT. Short cones aren't exactly the nicest powers to use, either.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
That graph makes Ice Melee look balanced, but it feels pretty weak to me; perhaps due to its lack of burst?
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I really should do something about this signature.
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I believe you came to a false conclusion.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
I said what I did because your view of balance only cares about single target damage and nothing else whatsoever
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The fact that Rage is allowed to stack is problematic. I wouldn't allow it to stack myself. However, that doesn't "fix" the set, it changes it to one where Rage doesn't stack.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
I want to hear Arcanaville's answer to this.
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How would I change Rage? If I was going to make a change today, I would probably eliminate the current Rage crash except for the -end. Then I would alter the buff so that the first 60 seconds you would get +80% damage and +20% tohit. The second 60 seconds you would get +50% damage and +15% tohit. The damage and tohit buffs would replace instead of stack. That means the faster you recharge it, the more of the high buff you would get (theoretically speaking at 400% recharge you could have it all the time). There would be a reward for higher recharge, but you couldn't double stack the power. And if you activated it while it was still up, the endurance crash would occur immediately.
I would then increase the single target damage of the set by buffing Jab and Punch. I would buff Jab by increasing its damage to 0.84 and its recharge to 3.0 seconds, and change its animation to a more Shadow Punch-like animation (cast time 0.83). I would increase Punch to 1.32 DS and its recharge to 6.0 seconds.
Past that point, it would depend on how much latitude I had in introducing new mechanics to the set to improve its single target design.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
That graph makes Ice Melee look balanced, but it feels pretty weak to me; perhaps due to its lack of burst?
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Originally Posted by Starsman
If you think standing 15% lower than the second worst single target set is "balanced" The set is lacking heavily in single target. In fact, So is Dual Blades if you don't account for combos (and this chart does not account for combos.)
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Originally Posted by Garent
I believe you came to a false conclusion.
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Yeah that's why I asked about the lack of burst - although I never considered Frost to be a small aoe - it's pretty wide and goes nearly as deep as you can get when surrounded.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Ice Melee looks to have better AoE than how it feels in play because of Frost. The metric just goes on total damage, without taking into account that it is a rather slow DoT. Short cones aren't exactly the nicest powers to use, either.
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As I said: ST is so low that its not justified even if the set scored over 9000 in AoE damage. I didn't mention it for many reasons. One is that it breaks the seesaw floor. The other is one that can be easily seen in the chart: sets with top notch ST damage perform better in AoE than Ice.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
No mention whatsoever of its high AOE ratings on the graph, so no, I don't think so.
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Not only is Frost better than most give it credit for, it has a good range and is considered ranged, meaning it takes range SOs and ranged AoE IOs. Slotting a regular Air Burst set plus the right selection of perfect zingers will leave you with a 14.42ft radius, 7.45s recharge, 94.88% accuracy and a bonus 10% regen bonus. Not bad for a very cheap slotting option.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Yeah that's why I asked about the lack of burst - although I never considered Frost to be a small aoe - it's pretty wide and goes nearly as deep as you can get when surrounded.
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Also something my chart does not visualize: the power has a 10 target cap. If you are good with cones (I know I am, but I don't have an Ice Melee anymore) you can really exploit this power.
Ice melee is never about the WOOMP factor though. It's more... well like falling asleep in the snow. The "target" of the snow does not realize he is slowly but still quickly getting killed by the cold.
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Fire Melee shouldn't count as that is it's entire design goal: be higher damage than any other set.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
As I said: ST is so low that its not justified even if the set scored over 9000 in AoE damage. I didn't mention it for many reasons. One is that it breaks the seesaw floor. The other is one that can be easily seen in the chart: sets with top notch ST damage perform better in AoE than Ice.
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Yeah I use it whenever I can - and if I recall, Frozen Aura does Footstomp damage, with a smaller radius and only with Build Up vs Rage.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Not only is Frost better than most give it credit for, it has a good range and is considered ranged, meaning it takes range SOs and ranged AoE IOs. Slotting a regular Air Burst set plus the right selection of perfect zingers will leave you with a 14.42ft radius, 7.45s recharge, 94.88% accuracy and a bonus 10% regen bonus. Not bad for a very cheap slotting option.
Also something my chart does not visualize: the power has a 10 target cap. If you are good with cones (I know I am, but I don't have an Ice Melee anymore) you can really exploit this power. Ice melee is never about the WOOMP factor though. It's more... well like falling asleep in the snow. The "target" of the snow does not realize he is slowly but still quickly getting killed by the cold. |
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I was thinking Super Strength, but yea there is Fire too.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Fire Melee shouldn't count as that is it's entire design goal: be higher damage than any other set.
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Considering he made the graph, I think the graph's mention of area damage counts.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
No mention whatsoever of its high AOE ratings on the graph, so no, I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by Titan_Destroyer
Simple answer to: How to Balance Super Strenght ?
The problem of the power set superiority damages is ONLY because of Rage stacks SO just FIX rage how it works. It means only make it work like hasten, don't change its base stats just simply make it not allow to stack rages buffs but make new buff replace last one AND move away the time penalty of 20seconds with no damages and -def: that will give any level SS the ability to permanently have a rage buff of 80% with no crash time and balancing then all pool and in the same time make it more playable and more fun for all. In conclusion: RAGE NOT STACKABLE AND NO CRASH. Simple as that, no need to spend years debating this is the best and easiest fix to balance the pool (no stack = nerf but no crash = up =>Overall result is a balance of that power that allow to balance all SS set !) |
Alternatively, we could just leave Super Strength alone. It's probably the most popular and effective melee set in the game. If anything, other sets should be balanced around SS, not the other way around.
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Doesn't that lead to the dictionary definition of power creep though? After they've buffed everything else to where SS is there is bound to be one powerset that has crept that little bit further ahead than the rest ... Then everything else has to be buffed again ... And again ... And again ...
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Alternatively, we could just leave Super Strength alone. It's probably the most popular and effective melee set in the game. If anything, other sets should be balanced around SS, not the other way around.
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Titan Weapons does a great job of being different than SS, not too far ahead and not too far behind- It's the same relative performance with different limiting factors, momentum and redraw instead of a Rage crash. Personally I think the best solution is to leave legacy sets alone for the most part since especially melee-wise nothing is really *dramatically* under performing, but when designing new sets keep SS and TW in mind as the bar. It is an old game after all. If people are going to cry for SS nerfs though, I just think the opposite would be a more appropriate solution.
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Originally Posted by parabola_EU
Doesn't that lead to the dictionary definition of power creep though? After they've buffed everything else to where SS is there is bound to be one powerset that has crept that little bit further ahead than the rest ... Then everything else has to be buffed again ... And again ... And again ...
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In teams, with certain AVs and most GM encounters can fail should you not have enough ST damage output. Although the community in this game tends to not be elitist, if all we had was ice melee in a team, TF targets would actually get hard to kill.