Super Strength Compared to Other Sets and Balance
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-08-06 12:03 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I would agree with you if this was a conversation about IO's or something, but in the case of powersets you would be paying for variety, not performance. In my mind as long as no paid sets are better than Super Strength numerically, there's no risk of pay to win. With TW, you're paying for roughly the same performance as SS in a shinier package and with different mechanics. |
Originally Posted by parabola_EU
I would say though that they have an interesting dilemma with bringing new powersets into the game - particularly those that have to be paid for. If they aim them all at the top end of performance then people will buy them but they risk overshooting and then having to nerf later bringing with it much rage from those who bought it or just having a situation where all legacy sets start to look very sorry indeed. Get a paid for powersets performance too low though and they lose sales defeating the entire object (from thier point of view). They really can't do anything other than try to find new and interesting ways to hit more or less the same spot over and over again.
|
As for nerf rage, that's what beta testing is for. They've done a pretty good job with that so far imo.
Quote:
So something along the lines of...|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
How would I change Rage? If I was going to make a change today, I would probably eliminate the current Rage crash except for the -end. Then I would alter the buff so that the first 60 seconds you would get +80% damage and +20% tohit. The second 60 seconds you would get +50% damage and +15% tohit. The damage and tohit buffs would replace instead of stack. That means the faster you recharge it, the more of the high buff you would get (theoretically speaking at 400% recharge you could have it all the time). There would be a reward for higher recharge, but you couldn't double stack the power. And if you activated it while it was still up, the endurance crash would occur immediately.
|
Rage:
+ 5% to-hit for 60 seconds (does not stack)
+30% to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/P damage for 60 seconds (does not stack)
+15% to-hit for 120 seconds (does not stack)
+50% to S/L/E/N/F/C/T/P damage for 120 seconds (does not stack)
-25% to Endurance after 120 seconds (stacks)
The main difference here is that the endurance crashes would stack and happen at whatever stacked delay, exactly how they do now, rather than immediately on activation of the next version.
The next question then becomes, would you consider the frequent endurance crashes to make it balanced when compared to sets which only have Build Up and similar or shorter recharge on their single target powers (ex: Fire Melee, Katana) once you boost Jab and Punch to .84/3s and 1.32/6s? Street Justice has a 3/6/8/25 sec recharge set of single target attacks as well - which is where the changes to Jab and Punch would put SS - and Combat Readiness has the lower damage boost for only 10 seconds while the combo levels go away as soon as you activate the next finisher. It may end up needing more of a penalty than just the endurance, I think, or maybe set it to a 60sec 90sec duration on the split so that it's not perma with SO recharge slotting but can be with IOs and ditch the crash entirely a la Soul Drain.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
The devs should take heed of an old adage, if it 'aint broke, don't 'fix' it. SS is clearly one of the better melee powersets, but most melee sets are very competitve with it, and a set like TW is superior in both single target and aoe damage. Clearly SOME players do not like how SS works for whatever reason, but MOST players love SS as-is. Now if SS was the only real choice in terms of melee powersets, I could see a problem, but that is clearly not the case. SS gets a lot of play, not only because it's a good powerset, but because SS is one of the most popular powers in this genre. If the devs wanted to play around with a second version of SS, maybe that would be the way to go, then the few people who don't like SS as it currently functions can play the alternate set.
I'm a melee enthusiast and I would rate the following powersets all to be in the same neighborhood of quality - TW, SS, DM, FM, STJ, Kat, KM, ElM, MA. I have not played mace or battle axe due to creative reasons, but statistically they both look decent. The only sets in my experience that are lagging behind the other sets and not really very competitive, are ice melee and energy melee. If the devs are looking to 'fix' anything, they should start there.
My thoughts:
-I would give Rage the Fiery Embrace treatment and split the damage buff with bonus smashing damage instead. It would grant a damage buff of 40% and add 50% of the base damage of a Super Strength's attack in bonus damage. The 40% damage buff would stack when you stack Rage, but the 50% in bonus damage wouldn't, thus taking some of the potency out of doublestacking + non-SS attacks.
On the upside, SS gains more damage over the cap, while still suffering the increased end drain from the crash.
-I don't want Jab turning into a quick little attack. That doesn't fit the feel of super strength at all to me. If anything, the set needs a second heavy hitting attack besides KoB. I'd vote for lowering Hurl's cast time and increasing its damage before I'd touch Jab.
.
I personally think the best long-term fix for Super Strength is a completely new set, in the vein of Martial Arts splitting off into Street Justice. IMO for such an iconic concept, the set really shows its age, and even with the alternate animations I'm not sure how much can be done for it. Call it whatever you want--even "Super Strength 2" would work for me. But more likely "Mighty Punch" or something would be better.
As to what to do with the existing set... well thats a good question. The "Rage" power in it doesn't do much for me conceptually though.
Quote:
That was done already. Its called Titan Weapons.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I personally think the best long-term fix for Super Strength is a completely new set, in the vein of Martial Arts splitting off into Street Justice.
|
TW apparently performs better than SS and illustrates the concept of having super human strength better than SS does because TW has you lifting and wielding something very heavy, something SS doesn't.
As long as we can't throw cars, punch enemies through walls or batter them with lamp posts, SS will always be found wanting. Because the only other way to show superior strength is to have its attacks do much more damage than the next set. Indeed, being so iconic I expect SS to be the crown jewel of melee sets. But the reality is it's an old set with old animations, other sets do better stuns, better knock and better damage yet it still comes under fire by the nerf herders so that poses a bit of a conundrum.
Chalk it up yet more reasons why we need a CoH 2; environmental interaction/destruction and better execution of existing power sets. And yes, I would re-roll my SS characters for a 'CoH 2' but I won't re-roll them for a "Premium Super Strength 2" set in this game. I wont reward the devs with more money by buying a new set that intentionally makes my existing characters obsolete because they wont/can't make the changes needed to the existing set.
.
Quote:
So Stone Mastery would retain the overpowered buff from Rage but other sets would lose it? |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I haven't read that thread, but the easiest way I can think of is to only have Rage boost Smashing damage instead of all damage types
|
That doesn't seem fair. Not that Stone Mastery deals a whole lot of damage outside of PvP anyway.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Embrace of Fire doesn't assist all Dominator APP/PPP powers equally. Why should Rage?
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So Stone Mastery would retain the overpowered buff from Rage but other sets would lose it?
That doesn't seem fair. Not that Stone Mastery deals a whole lot of damage outside of PvP anyway. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Why should Fiery Embrace? Why should Build Up? Why should Soul Drain?|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Embrace of Fire doesn't assist all Dominator APP/PPP powers equally. Why should Rage?
|
Why should Embrace of Fire not equally assist all dominator APP/PPP powers?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Well that really doesn't seem on point. It's not hard to find fire powers that do good damage. (*Cough*) fireball (*Cough*)|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Embrace of Fire doesn't assist all Dominator APP/PPP powers equally. Why should Rage?
|
If anything that is an argument to make embrace of fire, get the fiery embrace treatment.
Quote:
I actually expected it to at the same time they were changing all of the others. Especially since Embrace of Fire is available fairly early for Dominators and only significantly boosts one primary and one APP, and the changes to FE in Fiery Aura were done to prevent that exact thing from happening.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well that really doesn't seem on point. It's not hard to find fire powers that do good damage. (*Cough*) fireball (*Cough*)
If anything that is an argument to make embrace of fire, get the fiery embrace treatment. |
But the idea that Rage has to be of help to all damage types equally - when it's a permanent buff on SO slotting that also increases to-hit - isn't matched in behavior by every power, and the complaints about SS being overpowered are usually listed in conjunction with non-Smashing damage powers like Burn, Fiery Embrace's bonus damage, Gloom, and whatnot.
So if it doesn't buff Gloom, Burn, and FE damage as much as it does Fossilize, is that crippling? It's still a permanent +20% tohit power for the other damage types, +80% to all damage from your primary, most power pool attacks and some secondary and ancilliary/patron attacks, and I figured that getting rid of the crash would make up for the lower damage on the other types.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Anecdote: on beta I'm now using Nova against single bosses. It works because I'm stealthed: I don't have to eat the cast time of Nova with the boss punching me in the head, and I can then chain BU/Aim/Nova/Fastsnipe. That's a lot damage in a very short window: with Defiance buffs it can two-shot some bosses.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
As I said: ST is so low that its not justified even if the set scored over 9000 in AoE damage.
|
There is a point when high AoE becomes high single target damage. And apparently its when your AoEs are hitting for scale 4 damage.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Stop messing with my hyperbole, you know what I meant! |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Anecdote: on beta I'm now using Nova against single bosses. It works because I'm stealthed: I don't have to eat the cast time of Nova with the boss punching me in the head, and I can then chain BU/Aim/Nova/Fastsnipe. That's a lot damage in a very short window: with Defiance buffs it can two-shot some bosses.
There is a point when high AoE becomes high single target damage. And apparently its when your AoEs are hitting for scale 4 damage. |
Besides, Melee sets dont get Nukes.
Now, if the devs rahter fix Ice Melee by turning Frozen Aura into a Nuke... I may be fine with it!!
On the other hand, if memory does not fail me, basically all blast sets get nukes. This would mean that even insanely high AoE compared to other ATs would still not justify extreme ST inferiority among it's peers... do you agree with that?
I did the maths years ago on the European forums.
I worked out how the Tanker secondaries can be seen or deemed to be pretty much balanced but I took secondary effects into account.
Superstrength needs 1 use of Rage to put it in line with everyother secondary.
But then there is still that other advantage in how it's more consistently up increasing the damage on power pool attacks.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
It depends on what you mean by "extreme inferiority." AR doesn't have particularly good single target, but I believe its high AoE potential more than makes up for that. I think Staff Fighting's high AoE more than makes up for its lackluster ST, because its kill speed is still going to be faster than a high ST moderate AoE set against normal spawns.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
On the other hand, if memory does not fail me, basically all blast sets get nukes. This would mean that even insanely high AoE compared to other ATs would still not justify extreme ST inferiority among it's peers... do you agree with that?
|
Remember my notion of the standard spawn for mitigation? Its also useful in this context: real offense is composed of single target and AoE, and the interesting question is how long does a set with a mix of both take to bring down certain kinds of spawns. Say one boss, two Lts, and 6 minions. A high AoE low ST set would wipe out the minions fast, and the LTs would be right behind them. It would then take longer to take out the last boss standing. But while a low AoE high ST set could take down the boss faster, it would take down the LTs slower.
One simplistic but interesting question is to ask, if everything gets hit by everything, what happens? At level 50, it'll take about 860 damage to take down the Lts. That will leave the boss with about 1710 health. So in an ST/AoE mixed offense, a "balanced" attacker will have about twice the ST output as AoE per target, when you factor in the time to generate the AoE (which can't use used to generate ST damage). It *suggests* that there is such a thing as "too much AoE" but also such a thing as "not enough AoE" - we want our single target damage to kill the boss at about the same time AoE kills the Lts.
This is a very simplistic model, but it highlights the fact that bad X doesn't make up for great Y, but it also suggests that the balance between the two depends on the spawns you encounter. At +0x1, the situation is heavily slanted towards single target. At +0x8, its heavily slanted towards AoE. Also, ranking doesn't matter: what matters is the absolute relationship between absolute single target damage and absolute AoE damage. The third best AoE and third worst ST could end up being the fastest killer.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Meh, just play a Stalker with a good AoE set. AS will make up the ST difference.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It depends on what you mean by "extreme inferiority." AR doesn't have particularly good single target, but I believe its high AoE potential more than makes up for that. I think Staff Fighting's high AoE more than makes up for its lackluster ST, because its kill speed is still going to be faster than a high ST moderate AoE set against normal spawns.
Remember my notion of the standard spawn for mitigation? Its also useful in this context: real offense is composed of single target and AoE, and the interesting question is how long does a set with a mix of both take to bring down certain kinds of spawns. Say one boss, two Lts, and 6 minions. A high AoE low ST set would wipe out the minions fast, and the LTs would be right behind them. It would then take longer to take out the last boss standing. But while a low AoE high ST set could take down the boss faster, it would take down the LTs slower. One simplistic but interesting question is to ask, if everything gets hit by everything, what happens? At level 50, it'll take about 860 damage to take down the Lts. That will leave the boss with about 1710 health. So in an ST/AoE mixed offense, a "balanced" attacker will have about twice the ST output as AoE per target, when you factor in the time to generate the AoE (which can't use used to generate ST damage). It *suggests* that there is such a thing as "too much AoE" but also such a thing as "not enough AoE" - we want our single target damage to kill the boss at about the same time AoE kills the Lts. This is a very simplistic model, but it highlights the fact that bad X doesn't make up for great Y, but it also suggests that the balance between the two depends on the spawns you encounter. At +0x1, the situation is heavily slanted towards single target. At +0x8, its heavily slanted towards AoE. Also, ranking doesn't matter: what matters is the absolute relationship between absolute single target damage and absolute AoE damage. The third best AoE and third worst ST could end up being the fastest killer. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
In this context I'm defining "extreme inferiority" as the discrepancy between Ice Melee and other melee sets.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It depends on what you mean by "extreme inferiority."
|
Quote:
| AR doesn't have particularly good single target, but I believe its high AoE potential more than makes up for that. |
Quote:
| Also, ranking doesn't matter: what matters is the absolute relationship between absolute single target damage and absolute AoE damage. The third best AoE and third worst ST could end up being the fastest killer. |
I rounded things to make discrepancies between sets actually obvious. Dark Melee, War Mace and SS (without external powers) dish about 30% more damage than Ice. Stone, Fire and Energy are at about 38.6% more than Ice.
Dual Blades is the closest rank wise and it still has about 15% more DPS. In my eyes, that's a bit extreme.*
*Remember there is rounding involved, the numbers are not 100% accurate, they are just pointing at the address of their appropiate ballparks.
Yeah, in the end they have to work towards the middle (or the upper end of it maybe) and try to keep as much variety in the game as possible. Variety almost inevitably leads to imbalance but thats the price you pay for having an interesting game.
I would say though that they have an interesting dilemma with bringing new powersets into the game - particularly those that have to be paid for. If they aim them all at the top end of performance then people will buy them but they risk overshooting and then having to nerf later bringing with it much rage from those who bought it or just having a situation where all legacy sets start to look very sorry indeed. Get a paid for powersets performance too low though and they lose sales defeating the entire object (from thier point of view). They really can't do anything other than try to find new and interesting ways to hit more or less the same spot over and over again.