Scrapper vs Brutes.
By
4c3Player,
Posted on: 2012-07-28 19:01 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Broadly speaking, Brutes are slightly more durable than Scrappers, deal slightly less damage, and have to chase Fury. They have taunts built into their attacks (but only against the targets they hit, not AoE like Tankers have), and all their secondaries have a taunt aura, so on a team they'll be drawing aggro to some degree even if they aren't actively trying to tank.
The Fury mechanic gives Brutes a "selfish" incentive to gather aggro, which was thematically kind of interesting when all Brutes were Villains (the Tanker takes aggro to protect his teammates; the Brute hoards aggro because it benefits him personally).
On a team, Brutes are sometimes expected to tank, especially if a Tanker is not present, but they can just as easily fill a damage role, depending on their preference and the team's needs.
In simpler terms, Brutes have the option to be a tank because of added survivability and passive taunting, Scrappers are able to do more damage and can avoid the aggro should there be a tank-like meat shield on the team
I personally put it down to what sets I want to use. Should it be elemental, I tend to go Brute. Natural and/or weapon based sets I tend to go Scrapper (Or Stalker, but that's another story).
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
good info you two.
who would deal more damage on average say comapared to a brute that is about half fury bar compared to a scrap that crits once or twice a mish.
(That is about how much I crit on my scraps on average, some not at all in a mish and some up to three times, and brutes I average about half fury bar over all. But never cmpared the damage numbers.)
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
Against a Brute with half fury? I think the Scrapper does more damage there, and a Scrapper's crit chance goes up against higher ranked enemies so the Scrapper would be better against harder targets.
The question is, do you want to miss out on sets like Stone Melee and Super Strength? The damage difference between the two ATs isn't very large, so it can be as simple as which do you find more fun.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
Quote:
Scrappers deal more damage than Brutes even with high Fury; with low Fury (half is pretty low, since the i19 changes), the Scrapper wins no contest.
|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
who would deal more damage on average say comapared to a brute that is about half fury bar compared to a scrap that crits once or twice a mish.
|
usually I enjoy brutes more. Scraps are ok but I only see a crit about as often as I see purps. Think I only crit against a boss was twice. Everytime I play a scrap I get the feeling of hell, if I aint crit to off these dudes quickly every so often, I might as well bump up my hp and armor and get a brute, at leastI know the damge scale doesnt depend on chance. and brute SS is good too. one of the sets I mostly for a brute because the damage that comes with Rage and the fury bar.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Quote:
Yeah I said half because that is what I average solo especially moving from mob to mob. Lot of times the next mob is not very close and I dont use travel power between groups to rush (from playing patience with tank damage.)
|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Scrappers deal more damage than Brutes even with high Fury; with low Fury (half is pretty low, since the i19 changes), the Scrapper wins no contest.
|
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Your perspective of having bad luck is skewering your perception.
not this again. Well this is not perception. it's count. and what happens. And to make sure. I played scrap yesterday. Only one crit in entire mish, on a minion. Might play again today and see what happens and take note.
How often do you crit?
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Seriously, if what you're saying is true, you've encountered a major bug that affects multiple parts of the game's RNG. If that is so, odds are very good that you're not the only person experiencing this bug. And if that is so, bugs can be fixed.
Can you record and post your combat log from a mission or two? Make a new thread for it in the bug forum maybe? The first step in fixing any bug is figuring out exactly what the bug is, and seeing exactly what's happening can help nail down what's going on. You say defense and crits don't work well for you; what about procs? Hit rolls? Streak breaker? Powers with a chance at a secondary effect? Etc, etc.
first of all how do you record the log and second of all how do you post files to this forum?
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
I will toss a fireball at a x8 spawn and crit 4 of the mobs. I seriously can't be bothered to count how many times I crit in a mish. I would need at least ten more fingers and toes. 
My advice, roll a scrapper that has a taunt aura and you get the best of both worlds. Just so happens that 2 scrapper sets with taunt aura's(invuln and shield) can be built to be bordering on the ridiculously survivable side. Bonus points for shield being better on scrappers as well(does more damage than on a brute).
Fire/shield is insane.
Quote:
wow. but dont have a fire scrap so cant compare on that part there. all I need for me is three fingers four just in case I'm lucky that night. The rest of the fingers are bored. I'd probably go with the invul. It's more resistance based. I rolled a invul scrap one time long ago but think I deleted it after a while to make space. Dont remember it being super good nor super bad by level 25. Might give it a try again.
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I will toss a fireball at a x8 spawn and crit 4 of the mobs. I seriously can't be bothered to count how many times I crit in a mish. I would need at least ten more fingers and toes.
My advice, roll a scrapper that has a taunt aura and you get the best of both worlds. Just so happens that 2 scrapper sets with taunt aura's(invuln and shield) can be built to be bordering on the ridiculously survivable side. Bonus points for shield being better on scrappers as well(does more damage than on a brute). Fire/shield is insane. |
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Can also slot the crit chance ato in one of your attacks to increase your crit percentages. Course if it's as bad as you say, that would only be like an extra crit every 2 missions...
And layer your defenses on your invuln. That's the strength of the set. Can layer defense on top of your resistances and be perma hp capped.
yea. This one got four crits on CoTs office map, matching my record again.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Quote:
Might do that and see what happens. Is the crit chance ato thing another random based thing or does it increases the chance of a crit by a set amount?
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Can also slot the crit chance ato in one of your attacks to increase your crit percentages. Course if it's as bad as you say, that would only be like an extra crit every 2 missions...
|
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Quote:
The odds of critting are 5% on Minions and below, 10% on Lts and above, and 15% on specific powers (usually the final attack in the set).|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
not this again. Well this is not perception. it's count. and what happens. And to make sure. I played scrap yesterday. Only one crit in entire mish, on a minion. Might play again today and see what happens and take note.
How often do you crit? |
The situation you described is highly unusual. The odds of getting only one crit in an entire mission (assuming a regular length mission with regular spawning) is incredibly low.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
first of all how do you record the log and second of all how do you post files to this forum?
|
/copychat "CritTest"
Then, you can paste into something like Word or Notepad.
We'll always have Paragon.
alright then. well given there is one boss per mission usually out side many CoT mishs and that being 10%, and about three minions per group, with 5% chance to crit each one, and maybe a few 1LT and 1 minion group with ten and 5% chance to crit, I dont see how it would be very low prob to crit only once in a mish. Then again, low probability it might be just as low probablity for very rare recipes to drop but some people do get three or two per mish at times, while some people get one per mish while some people never seen a purp, and others maybe got two total out of a whole stable of level 50s. But supposedly the odd of purple drop is less than 1% but some people see them on the regular which on paper would be very low probabilty but in reality, it happens.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
So what advantages do brutes have over scrappers? and what situations would a brute shine over a scrap, solo and or on teams.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Personally, if I wanted good crits; I'd go Stalker:
Guaranteed crits from Hide (w/both a proc and a power that can put you back into Hide)
10% chance to crit outside of Hide (regardless of critter rank)
+3% to crit outside of Hide per nearby teammate (assuming max 7); +21% (=max 31% chance to crit on teams)
Assassin's Focus buff to Assassin's Strike crit % (out of hide)
===========================================
Other than that:
Brute damage buffing is more consistent than Scrapper crits; especially when dealing with Lts, Minions and below.
Built in Brute taunting creates fewer runners than Scrappers for more consistent damage.
More control over your bonus damage.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
yeah made a stalker before the changes. I enjoyed the stalker. It's crit system was easy. You're in AS, you hit, you crit, that simple. And didnt notice any crits prior outside hide so that must be new too. And the 3% crit per team member may help if I revive a stalker or build another. But the guranteed crit alone was good enough for me.
|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Personally, if I wanted good crits; I'd go Stalker:
Guaranteed crits from Hide (w/both a proc and a power that can put you back into Hide) 10% chance to crit outside of Hide (regardless of critter rank) +3% to crit outside of Hide per nearby teammate (assuming max 7); +21% (=max 31% chance to crit on teams) Assassin's Focus buff to Assassin's Strike crit % (out of hide) =========================================== Other than that: Brute damage buffing is more consistent than Scrapper crits; especially when dealing with Lts, Minions and below. Built in Brute taunting creates fewer runners than Scrappers for more consistent damage. More control over your bonus damage. |
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Quote:
Other things being equal, the Brute will generally survive better, plus all secondaries have a taunt aura, plus I believe all attacks have single-target punchvoke (vs. Tankers' AoE punchvoke). So even with less damage on paper, a Brute may be able to leverage that damage better because it's more often surrounded by enemies than some Scrappers. On the other hand, even with more survivability on paper, a Brute may have a tougher time staying alive because it's more often surrounded by enemies than some Scrappers. And then there's Super Strength/Fire, which puts out crazy damage to make Scrappers jealous (even my IO'd out AoE-spec'd Fire/Shield is sad in comparison), and I'm told that Titan Weapons/Fire is in the same boat.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
So what advantages do brutes have over scrappers? and what situations would a brute shine over a scrap, solo and or on teams.
|
I'm almost never on a team larger than two or three, so those were mostly solo and tiny team observations. A Brute is probably more team-friendly, as it can generally do a better job of keeping aggro off the squishies. But it can be more difficult to keep Fury up on a team, so damage output probably suffers compared to Scrappers. End game incarnate trials seem to like to require everyone to run away to avoid damage, which will probably swing damage even more towards the Scrappers on the incarnate trials, since they don't have Fury to lose, and are always at full attack strength.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Yea that is the type of compare I was looking for. yea small teams if eve nthat and solo play is usually my situation 90% of the time while the other 10% is for the occasional TF/SF/Trial until they make most of those soloable.
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Other things being equal, the Brute will generally survive better, plus all secondaries have a taunt aura, plus I believe all attacks have single-target punchvoke (vs. Tankers' AoE punchvoke). So even with less damage on paper, a Brute may be able to leverage that damage better because it's more often surrounded by enemies than some Scrappers. On the other hand, even with more survivability on paper, a Brute may have a tougher time staying alive because it's more often surrounded by enemies than some Scrappers. And then there's Super Strength/Fire, which puts out crazy damage to make Scrappers jealous (even my IO'd out AoE-spec'd Fire/Shield is sad in comparison), and I'm told that Titan Weapons/Fire is in the same boat.
I'm almost never on a team larger than two or three, so those were mostly solo and tiny team observations. A Brute is probably more team-friendly, as it can generally do a better job of keeping aggro off the squishies. But it can be more difficult to keep Fury up on a team, so damage output probably suffers compared to Scrappers. End game incarnate trials seem to like to require everyone to run away to avoid damage, which will probably swing damage even more towards the Scrappers on the incarnate trials, since they don't have Fury to lose, and are always at full attack strength. |
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Quote:
It's a 5% chance to crit per attack.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
alright then. well given there is one boss per mission usually out side many CoT mishs and that being 10%, and about three minions per group, with 5% chance to crit each one, and maybe a few 1LT and 1 minion group with ten and 5% chance to crit, I dont see how it would be very low prob to crit only once in a mish.
|
If a mission has, say, 10 mobs of 3 minions each, and each minion takes 3 attacks to defeat, thats 3 attacks times 30 minions for 90 attacks made in that mission with a 5% chance to crit on each attack (assuming you never use a power with a higher crit chance).
The odds of critting once in 90 attacks is .95^90, or approximately 1%. Thus, the odds of you critting at least twice per mission is 99%.
That chance goes up if you use an attack with a higher crit chance, if you fight any Lts or higher, and if it takes more attacks to down an enemy.
We'll always have Paragon.
In general, what is the difference between a scrapper and a brute and how does these differences define the different roles they play on a team? Outside of damage of course.
-Female Player-
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard.