How did Bio get nerfed?

Yeppers.

Specifically? I don't have the original numbers to say anything about how the defense/resistance changed, the in-game numbers are missing a lot of entries (including the strength of the procs, which fire at a 100% rate for damage and heal in any powers that can be slotted for damage), and many of the posts by Synapse talking about them are worded along the lines of "significantly reduced" and things like that.

The -regen was cut in half (to -100%), the -damage now only works in Defensive Adaptation, the strength of the +resistance and +defense in Evolving Armor while in Defensive Adaptation was reduced (I forget the amounts), DNA Siphon was reduced in effectiveness across the board, and penalties were applied (-7.5% resistance to Offensive for Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers, -30% damage to Defensive) when not in Efficient (or no adaptation as it was originally - Efficient was added later and several things that were just "on" got attached to it). Those are off the top of my head, but it's not comprehensive and not specific on most of the values.

And it's still a good set, although I'd dispute the spreadsheet-only claims that some have made that it leaves everything else in the dust once you include pool powers.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Haha!

This just may be my new sig. I've never been more excited for a set before and now I honestly dont care very much for it. It can go either way whether I purchase it or not.

Do tanks not have the -Res in Offensive mode? I hadn't noticed or bothered to double check that, but I thought they did.

In regards to the "nerfing" that was done, it's good to keep perspective on the issue. While terms like "significantly reduced" were used, Defensive mode for a Tanker with ten mobs around it can still cap S/L Res, and soft cap F/C/E/N. For a brute, that's 67.5% S/L and 35% on the defense numbers (that's with Tough, Weave, CJ). So while some might say the powers were gutted they were only cut down to very impressive numbers, as opposed to uber-insane numbers.

Also, the regen in Efficient was recently reduced slightly and its recovery was also improved slightly. The overall effect in game was a minor reduction in survival numbers but a noticeable increase in endurance use. And I expect the -Res will be removed from Defensive mode as it negates a lot of the damage debuff penalty.

Don't let someone's chip on their shoulder and ability to exaggerate greatly deter you from a good set.

Then perhaps you can define what you mean. Because it implies something not accurate to the build on Beta. Or did you actually play the build on Beta now?

My excitement stemmed from a melee toon that had decent debuffs. Allowing its damage output to be upped. Fire Aura is one of my favorite armors and I'm tired of making characters with it. Bio was going to be my new go to.

Fingers crossed that radiation armor has sick debuffs.

For what it's worth, Offensive mode still carries -Res in it and grants Toxic damage procs. I'd suggest test driving it on Beta and judge for yourself. Unless you play against a lot of AVs or GMs, I don't think you'll notice the reduction to the -regen.

Tankers have a larger -resistance penalty as it follows AT modifiers.

And you've been spearheading any sort of push for removing the -resistance, so saying you expect it is misleading - you want it would be a better wording. The -damage penalty provides a ~15.4% reduction in damage dealt compared to Efficient Adaptation, and Defensive Adaptation has already been reduced in effective twice since your video.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

WHAT???? Reppu got it nerfed into oblivion???? My better half had a stroke last month. Thankfully he is a lot better now, and, now that I am no longer horribly worried about him, I have just now started getting excited about Bio....and now you say Reppu ruined it????

Really

That is what I get for looking forward to something

Pancake

Lisa.

And for what it's worth, Offensive Adaptation makes the set slightly worse than Fiery Aura for both damage and survivability unless you get good mileage out of the -regen against AVs and GMs.

If you want another Fiery Aura you'll be disappointed. If you want a set that lets you decide on the fly (to a limited extent) whether you want to be a Tanker, Brute, or Stalker then you'll like Bio.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Trust me, my wording isn't misleading. Certainly not misleading like "beaten mercilessly into a bloody pile of bio mass" is.

Defensive mode approaches Granite-like levels of survival and it's not even getting a quarter of the debuffs. You don't expect that to be balanced? A reduction of 30% damage is a lite price to pay. We don't even have to worry about a recharge reduction.

Worse survival than FA? That's subjective at best.

But it's true, if you want FA 2.0, look elsewhere. Same if you're looking for Granite 2.0. This set is about great adaptability, and it's a very good strength.

Stop trying to BS people. It's a good set. It is not Granite Armor v2.0, and claiming otherwise is just as misleading as saying that it's garbage that's been nerfed to oblivion... probably moreso.

You have limited resistance to anything but S/L even in Defensive, your oh-so-vaunted defenses are torn apart easily by debuffs (the most common source of which is one of the damage types you have the least defense against), the absorb mechanic acts as a preemptive heal on a longer-than-normal heal recharge, DNA Siphon also has a longer-than-normal heal recharge timer and requires multiple targets around to really be effective, which is a problem that the tier 9 also suffers from.

For a short burst you can approach Granite, sure - but then so can Stalker Ice Armor using Icy Baston. In other sets and for longer bursts try counting the tier 9 performance of Invulnerability - the HP crash of which can be put off for just shy of 6 minutes with Burnout.

Like I said, you want it and you're ignoring benefits that other sets have to try to get it.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I think that line is as likely to be true as telling some one he likes to put pins in his eyes.

Synapse wanted, from the start, for defensive adaptation to lose in the offensive side, and offensive to lose in the defensive side. The initial patch attemtped to do this by disabling traits of powers while in certain adaptations and little else. He toyed with -recharge and +recharge among other things, but that didnt work out as he desired.

At the end, -damage and resistable -res were picked as the ways to achieve the goal. Those penalties are not going away, they are required to fullfill Synapses goal for the set.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Didn't I just say that it's not Granite 2.0??

My only desire is to make sure the set is balanced enough so that we don't see other adjustments after going live. The amount of survival given to Defensive mode is not offset enough while -Res is still present. I've run around in Defensive through plenty of mobs, and I'm hardly noticing any reduction in kill speed on my Brute. When I turn on Offensive, I notice a reduction in survival AND a damage increase. Defensive should reflect that better.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm nerf herding or something. But I'll stress that I suggested removing any -recharge penalties and I've also suggested making PA auto-hit.

[edit] Basically, the -res in Defensive is like turning around and adding -tohit debuffs for Offensive mode. You're negating the penalty. You're putting in something that is antithesis to its purpose. It makes no sense to be there. Better to balance it now than after plenty of people have noticed that Defensive mode is getting off easy.

If you are talking about removing -resist from Deffensive, I would expect it to go away and would not attribute it to any specific poster's feedback. It just makes sense with Synapse's post that offensive gets offensive tools, deffensive gets deffensive tools, and efficient gets some in-betweens and endurance management.

Yes. After claiming that it was approaching Granite with less than a quarter of the penalties. And with an edit in the post that may have included the line about Granite 2.0, or I may have missed it prior to clicking to quote it or I would have called out the doublespeak then.



First sentence is an opinion - one I obviously don't happen to share - and the highlighted portion of the second sentence is likely why you feel that way. +/- damage on a Brute is watered down heavily. The set exists for more than one AT, so don't balance it for just one.

I see where you're trying to go with it, but that's a bad analogy - the -resistance is there in all forms, not just Offensive. The -damage is the penalty for Defensive and provides enough of one that its penalty is similar in magnitude to the boost in damage you get for Offensive Adaptation and still reduces you below baseline assuming you took another set. That's why I'm okay with leaving the -resistance alone... even with it you're still at less damage than, say, Willpower or Invulnerability.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

"Approaching" implies falling short of, it is not the same as "being". No doublespeak was used.

Ok. I don't notice the decrease in damage all that much on a tanker either. Does that help?

Second sentence is an opinion - one I obviously don't happen to share.

Now, if you're going to say that the penalty in damage in Defensive is similar in magnitude to the boost for Offensive, then that would mean the penalty in Offensive needs to be similar to the boost in survival Defensive has.

I don't particularly care to follow that line of reasoning, because that would require a bigger survival penalty for Offensive was in order. Instead, I think the penalty should compare to the boost inside the same adaptation. So Defensive gets a pretty big survival boost. -30% damage, without a -res to offset it, is a fair price.

And I'd say it's ok if you're at less damage than WP, because I think Defensive is capable of being more survivable than WP. I know you'll say that's opinion, but the side-by-side comparison video Arcana posted suggests otherwise. It's at least more useful than just saying something based off opinion alone.

[edit] Also, don't insinuate someone edited a post just to negate something you said. It only comes across as an attempt to slander.

The clause of "with less than a quarter of the penalties" most certainly implied that you felt it was a far better trade, and as such a replacement. That's what led to the comment about doublespeak - the impression you provided through your use of wording was that you were far better off than any other set while using Bio in Defensive. I expect most IO builds won't bother to use Defensive even if the penalty was only the -damage just because you won't need the extra survival, but I want the -resistance to stay for two reasons: if you really need Defensive on a team you'll want the rest of the team doing more damage, and the debuff makes it far more likely that the mobs stay focused on you. Having the -resistance isn't just a personal benefit, and it's a unique thing that the set offers as a whole-team benefit similar to Shield having Grant Cover. Unlike Grant Cover its beneficial on its own enough that you're unlikely to skip it when soloing.

In any case, it's obvious that we disagree on the -resistance; you seem to feel that any and all offensive boosts should be removed from defensive mode and I don't.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

She did state "I'm going to advocate and push for this to be nerfed. Rather heavily." But to be fair mostly all of the subsequent statements have been about balance since that original position is not really workable within a BETA discussion thread.

While there have been balance adjustments/nerfs within the set, some that I did not like at all, I would not say the set itself has been nerfed into oblivion. It is ok.

Well, when I said it's not getting a quarter of the debuff, I was speaking in terms of balancing the set. That's why it was mentioned to begin with. Keep things in context, and you won't have to accuse me of something I'm not doing. And if it is a better trade, that still does not mean it replaces Granite. I'm saying what it pays in proportion to its boost is better. Not that it's survival is better, or on par, with Granite.

To put it another way, "Defensive approaches Granite-level survival while it doesn't approach Granite's penalties at the same rate of balance."

Side note: I'm not continuing this in hopes of changing your opinion about the balance of the adaptation. I'm addressing the issue that you're accusing me of something that's not true and hope to clear up the confusion there.

I got two Bio's into the 40's when it first hit. It was a bit unbalanced and needed work, who would think that first run out in BETA...right? LOL!

Anyway I stopped testing them right after getting pwnd in Night Ward after some changes. TBH, I cannot for the life of me remember exactly which changes I hated the most and felt made the set not as fun as it was before but that is not important IMHO.

The set is still ok, but just not something I would play.

In the end what I think matters not, what the majority of people that are going to pay for the set think is and they seem to like it as is, just like Beam and Beast Mastery.