So the Kheldian Forums have been quiet about this, but...
Quote:
Warshades are excellent, but in my experience, which may be lacking to be honest, I've found that for the same influence investment, a Scrapper or Brute will be better. I suppose with the weakest combinations on the melee side, that might not hold up.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I do. In fact I have a very strong db elec scrappers that had the top scrappers pylon time for quite a while. His ST was very good, his AoE was good, and his survival was good. My warshade's ST is ok, his AoE is very good, and his survival is extreme. I would never say the scrapper was just better than the warshade unless I was just looking at ST dps in a vacuum.
|
It's hard to make an apples to apples comparison because there's so much difference between Kheldians and Scrappers/Brutes, but there's just some built in advantages the melees have that I have been unable to replicate with Kheldians. Not that I have tried mind you.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Hmm... your post reminds me of the old Japanese soldiers fighting long after the war is over. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Reminds me of the kid that breaks the toy he saw the other kid playing with because he can't get it to work like the other kid could.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
You have to understand how this just isn't correct, dude. My human Warshade is what I like to think of as a Tankinator- Raw damage isn't his only focus, though he can out AOE my Claws Brute with 3 fluffies up and pump out enough ST to solo a level 54 AV. He can also perma stun entire 54x8 groups on top of that decent damage output. He can also outlive the majority of builds in the game, with hardcapped resistance to everything and a small purple from the softcap to everything. Oh, and he also has a taunt aura 50% of the time, and provoke. He's my favorite character for a reason, and I have lots of OP characters. |
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Enjoy playing your underpowered squids, you'll always be weaker than brutes and scrappers.
|
Note the conspicuous absence of me presenting a defense against your statement for Peacebringers. In all honesty, there really isn't one.
Quote:
lol.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Note the conspicuous absence of me presenting a defense against your statement for Peacebringers. In all honesty, there really isn't one.
|
Would love to see your Warshade build. It sounds pretty awesome.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
It is. As soon as I'm about to respec out of it, I'll post it. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
lol.
Would love to see your Warshade build. It sounds pretty awesome. |
Quote:
Kheld drivers are not still fighting the war man we have Arbiter Hawk on our side he gets Khelds. The Kheld based improvement he made last year were excellent and there is more to come.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Hmm... your post reminds me of the old Japanese soldiers fighting long after the war is over.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Warshades are excellent, but in my experience, which may be lacking to be honest, I've found that for the same influence investment, a Scrapper or Brute will be better.
|
Khelds are excellent but how well they are built and who's is driving them is an important factor, much moreso than any other AT in the game and that is in fact is part of the appeal to many drivers.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
I mean the always part. Obviously Kheldians won't always outperform.
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You must not play Scrappers or Brutes then?
|
Paragon Studios, thanks for all you've done. You've made this a great game, and a great community. I see this as six years well-spent. NCSoft, I'm seriously disappointed in you. This is not how you get or keep customers.
Quote:
QFT. Khelds can have quite a steep learner curve, I'd wager Warshades even more so. Build and driver have such a huge impact on this AT that I feel we get a bad rap because of the difficulty to set up and efficiently play a kheld. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Khelds are excellent but how well they are built and who's is driving them is an important factor, much moreso than any other AT in the game and that is in fact is part of the appeal to many drivers.
|
No other AT, IMO, requires the number of binds that a kheldian needs to reach peak performance at least in my experience.
There are only two things I use binds for: Khelds and Masterminds. And my kheld has more. Also probably my most active character, can't stop and take a break while in the middle of a mob like with my Nin/Time.
Quote:
My experience has always been that Peacebringers are harder to plan and build for, since unlike Warshades the powers that Peacebringers get are often redundant between forms and lack any sort of coherent synergistic focus due to a lack of stacking options (other than Defense Debuff and Knockback).|
Originally Posted by doomrider
QFT. Khelds can have quite a steep learner curve, I'd wager Warshades even more so.
|
I started with a Warshade because it was "easier" to plan and build for with 3 distinct Forms that all served uniquely different purposes that worked well together.
After getting my Warshade to 50, I started my Peacebringer, and found it incredibly difficult to find a "center" to the powersets to build around. My Peacebringer has always felt like the overall sum is LESS THAN its parts because of how poorly the powers synergize with each other, and the almost total lack of any meaningful Control potential (due to a lack of stacking of Mag).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
My experience has always been that Peacebringers are harder to plan and build for, since unlike Warshades the powers that Peacebringers get are often redundant between forms and lack any sort of coherent synergistic focus due to a lack of stacking options (other than Defense Debuff and Knockback).
I started with a Warshade because it was "easier" to plan and build for with 3 distinct Forms that all served uniquely different purposes that worked well together. After getting my Warshade to 50, I started my Peacebringer, and found it incredibly difficult to find a "center" to the powersets to build around. My Peacebringer has always felt like the overall sum is LESS THAN its parts because of how poorly the powers synergize with each other, and the almost total lack of any meaningful Control potential (due to a lack of stacking of Mag). |
Doom was saying Warshades are harder to play well. Because they are. I don't really know what's difficult about building an entry level Peacebringer, I feel like at all times it's much harder to build and play a good Warshade. for Peacebringers you mention the different versions of every power doing essentially the same thing, so very simple logic dictates that you slot them the same way. If you slot Gravitic Emanation as an attack, on the other hand, prepare to be laughed off the forums.
An insane revamp would probably be to make it so that forms don't have their own powers....
You select from your powers as per usual, but certain ones can also work in your forms for enhanced/changed effect when said form is active. This would help take care of a few things like slotting, and offer interesting variety if done right, but would be a mandatory and difficult respec for most. It also totally flips the build dynamics on their head compared to what they currently are, and presents whole new challenges for balance.
Celtech Main Site
My DA Profile
Quote:
A complete revamp of kheldians won't happen, it would break the cottage rule so hard it would implode, and it would be overkill.
|
Originally Posted by LtZerge
An insane revamp would probably be to make it so that forms don't have their own powers....
You select from your powers as per usual, but certain ones can also work in your forms for enhanced/changed effect when said form is active. This would help take care of a few things like slotting, and offer interesting variety if done right, but would be a mandatory and difficult respec for most. It also totally flips the build dynamics on their head compared to what they currently are, and presents whole new challenges for balance. |
Quote:
You're respeccing out of your warshade build? |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
It is. As soon as I'm about to respec out of it, I'll post it.
|
What will you respec into?
I'd love to see that build too. Might inspire me to IO out Nova Bedouin.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
No, he's saying that he won't share his build until he creates a better one.
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You're respeccing out of your warshade build?
What will you respec into? I'd love to see that build too. Might inspire me to IO out Nova Bedouin. |
Quote:
.....right. Another post flew right over my head. I wondered what that shadow was.
|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
No, he's saying that he won't share his build until he creates a better one.
|
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Hahaha. Well, I'll be making tweaks once the next ATO set comes out, and even more tweaks once we get toggle suppression.
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You're respeccing out of your warshade build?
What will you respec into? I'd love to see that build too. Might inspire me to IO out Nova Bedouin. |
Quote:
That's true, I didn't focus on that part.
|
Originally Posted by Anilo
I mean the always part. Obviously Kheldians won't always outperform.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I don't know about Warshades, but Peacebringers have always had a Crashless Nuke: Photon Seekers. If you jump into a group and use those at point blank range, they are basically the PBAoE nuke combined with enough KB to fragment alpha. Recharging twice as fast as Dawn Strike and doing more damage as a whole also helps it out, too.
Dawn strike also isn't particularly nasty to PBs, since it has -100% endurance recovery instead of -1000%. The player's endurance keeps on ticking, and with conserve power cutting the costs of powers, the only detriment would be dropping the shield toggles for a second IF the build in question uses shield toggles. Even if they do, light form is still active, giving more endurance and plenty of resists, so the PB is more than capable of taking a few hits. On a PB with Dwarf, that can be morphed into for more defense and extra heals. Because of this, Dawn Strike isn't as much of a "crash" as it is just a very high costing power.
I suppose one of the reasons why it is that they aren't porting crashless nukes to Khelds (especially PBs) yet is because it is a balance issue. Even with the above, Dawn Strike is still a harsh power to use, and removing that crash would be giving PBs two costless nukes, which could be quite overpowering.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
Quote:
Thinking like this is why Peacebringers can't have nice stuff. Photon Seekers are NOT a nuke. They're a pet. Let me say it again for emphasis. THEY. ARE. A. PET. |
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
I don't know about Warshades, but Peacebringers have always had a Crashless Nuke: Photon Seekers. If you jump into a group and use those at point blank range, they are basically the PBAoE nuke combined with enough KB to fragment alpha. Recharging twice as fast as Dawn Strike and doing more damage as a whole also helps it out, too.
|
If the best use you get out of them is to use them as though they were a power in a completely different class then it's a sure indication that something is wrong with Photon Seekers, not a consolation prize for why they don't function properly as a @#$@# pet power.
Quote:
| Dawn strike also isn't particularly nasty to PBs, since it has -100% endurance recovery instead of -1000%. The player's endurance keeps on ticking, and with conserve power cutting the costs of powers, the only detriment would be dropping the shield toggles for a second IF the build in question uses shield toggles. Even if they do, light form is still active, giving more endurance and plenty of resists, so the PB is more than capable of taking a few hits. On a PB with Dwarf, that can be morphed into for more defense and extra heals. Because of this, Dawn Strike isn't as much of a "crash" as it is just a very high costing power. |
Quote:
| I suppose one of the reasons why it is that they aren't porting crashless nukes to Khelds (especially PBs) yet is because it is a balance issue. Even with the above, Dawn Strike is still a harsh power to use, and removing that crash would be giving PBs two costless nukes, which could be quite overpowering. |
Because our role as the "versatile archetype" is gradually being chipped away by powersets like Bio Armor and Staff Fighting.
No, I don't think balance is the issue. I'm gonna have to agree with the "future changes are coming so they want to hold off until those changes can be implemented" argument.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Warshades also have a crashless nuke, but its cooler cause it involves exploding cadavers.
Yes, Kheldians can be outdone by more specialized ATs, but they are more versatile. Bio Armor and Staff Fighting do not interfere with that. Staff lacks control and the ability to permanently cap its damage, turn into an ethereal werelobster and fluffy eldritch squid. Bio lacks capped resistance, the ability to permanently cap its damage, turn into an ethereal werelobster and fluffy eldritch squid.
Quote:
AGAIN. Photon Seekers IS NOT A CRASHLESS NUKE.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Warshades also have a crashless nuke, but its cooler cause it involves exploding cadavers.
|
Unchained Essence is a level 26 power. The fact that a level 32 pet is often compared with it doesn't necessarily speak well for Photon Seekers, does it?
Quote:
| Yes, Kheldians can be outdone by more specialized ATs, but they are more versatile. Bio Armor and Staff Fighting do not interfere with that. Staff lacks control and the ability to permanently cap its damage, turn into an ethereal werelobster and fluffy eldritch squid. Bio lacks capped resistance, the ability to permanently cap its damage, turn into an ethereal werelobster and fluffy eldritch squid. |
Which in and of itself isn't all that powerful. But archetypes with access to staff fighting also have access to a mitigation set that - depending on the set chosen - can use staff fighting to mitigate or augment the cost of its benefits. My sf/da brute can run all of his toggles indefinitely thanks to form of the soul, putting up resistance numbers that are VERY competitive with dwarf form, all the while increasing its own melee defense with guarded spin. Thanks to the PPP's I even have a ranged attack chain AND a single target chain that still competes with my PB chain.
And if I need a little more damage? I can switch to form of the body on the fly. Hit with a slow? Form of the mind can help with that. And I'm not even taking into account the benefits of stacking form mastery.
But the set that really raised my eyebrows is Bio Armor. It's really too soon to say to what extent it's versatile, but any armor power that carries: Maximum HP, Nearly Infinite Endurance, Absorption, Regen, Healing AND debuffs regen, resistance and damage can be combined with oh, say staff fighting for a real competitor in the versatility field.
My point is that - while these two sets in a vaccum do not invalidate the versatility of an entire archetype, they are indicative of a game environment that is valuing kheldian versatility less and less. I haven't even touched on things like incarnate powers.
And I never said these sets (and sets like them) were replacing the versatility kheldians enjoy. I said they were chipping away at it. If the design philosophy behind those sets is any indication of things to come, then versatility is coming to archetypes in general, and I gotta think that if - and it's a big "if" - kheldians are held back in some areas to balance their versatility, then the delay on the nuke changes *might* indicate that the price we're paying for that versatility could get looked at.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Yes, peacebringers need work. Both need toggle suppression. But Warshades are not underpowered. They aren't the best, but they aren't underpowered. PBs do need some of their powers looked at, but an AT that can cap damage, resistance, permastun entire mobs, rez itself, refill both bars nearly as often as they want, and turn into an fluffy eldritch squid and ethereal werelobster is not underpowered.
And yes, Photon Seekers is one of the things that needs looking at.
I don't know why the devs aren't giving Khelds the nuke change yet. But I also don't really care, since kheldians can easily leverage a crashing long recharge nuke. Also they have the coolest looking nuke ever.
Quote:
I didn't say warshades are underpowered, did I? I don't think I did.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Yes, peacebringers need work. Both need toggle suppression. But Warshades are not underpowered. They aren't the best, but they aren't underpowered. PBs do need some of their powers looked at, but an AT that can cap damage, resistance, permastun entire mobs, rez itself, refill both bars nearly as often as they want, and turn into an fluffy eldritch squid and ethereal werelobster is not underpowered.
|
I did say that there's nothing kheldians can do that can't be equaled or surpassed by virtually every other archetype in the game, but I would never call that underpowered, for exactly the reasons you've given. However, I'll admit the statement is a bit on the broad side.
You say warshades aren't underpowered, and I categorically endorse that statement. Fine. We'll just have to agree to agree.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]