More Pool Power Changes
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-18 19:08 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
That effect is completely separate from the other effects of the power. It's the Afraid effect. All fear powers used to cause fleeing, but it was hated by the players so the Terrorize effect was added and all "Fear" powers became Terrorize.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Just to kind of throw my hat in. I wonder if the "run away" effect gained in things like caltrops is possible to be enforec without the Slow?DoT effect. Because an Toggle or Hybrid toggle aura that causes that effect with some of the self-buffs of current Unyielding would be pretty cool. I'd especially love it if it made you Walk(but doubt it would)
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You could have a power that was nothing but Afraid... though there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as hated as it was years ago.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Sure. Place/Taunt + Fear = Self buff. |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
That's no longer going to be an issue. The single target taunt is being eliminated.
Presence will be: Pacify - Single Target Placate Provoke - AoE Taunt Intimidate - Single target Fear (Increased to mag 3, chance for mag4, reduced end cost.) Invoke Panic - PBAoE Fear (Increased to mag3, reduced end cost, increased Accuracy, increased "range" (I assume the mean Radius as it's a PBAoE)) Unrelenting - Self +Damage, +Recharge, +Recovery, HoT, Self Rez if defeated. Unrelenting honestly seems entirely out of place to me. In a pool dedicated to agro management and control you get a self buff?  |
It's the same logic as Wombat + Taco = Wet Paint.
Unrelenting seems more like something that'd go in Speed, or Fighting, not Presence. It seems like a cool power, depending on exact numbers, but certainly out of place.
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I was under the impression it was an AI thing brought on by the DoT+Slow in the AoE. |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
That effect is completely separate from the other effects of the power. It's the Afraid effect. All fear powers used to cause fleeing, but it was hated by the players so the Terrorize effect was added and all "Fear" powers became Terrorize.
You could have a power that was nothing but Afraid... though there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as hated as it was years ago. |
In any case Presence always felt like either the "Ventriloquism" power or the "I AM THE NIGHT!" power so two fears, a placate and a taunt make sense. An aura that has some kind of control effect does too and I like the idea of just sending them running in fear as you approach. A taunt aura could work too but I'd hope those self-buffs wouldn't be removed if so.
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Quote:
The rumoured Sorcery is rumoured to have a fairly random selection of different types of power.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Sure. Place/Taunt + Fear = Self buff.
It's the same logic as Wombat + Taco = Wet Paint. |
I really should do something about this signature.
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If it had a very short duration, it could be useful as a toggle on a ranged attacker. Makes mobs move away, but only a short distance.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
You could have a power that was nothing but Afraid... though there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as hated as it was years ago.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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Eh, no. It would never be allowed to go live in that state.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Or more likely: Field Medic will buff self heals except when those self heals take resistance enhancements.
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You CANNOT advertise a power as "buffs healing" and then have a whole bunch of healing powers which are completely unaffected.
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| I will be very surprised if the fact that having resistance means that powers have to be set to ignore buffs things gets fixed in I24 (fixed eventually, maybe, in I24 no way). |
If they can't fix that, they will simply change Field Medic, either the way it functions, or into a completely different power. The cottage rule doesn't apply until a power goes live. We have seen MASSIVE changes to powers on the beta server, there is no reason to assume the pool changes are anything like set in stone.
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| I also can't see the devs going through ALL self heal powers in the game and making them immune to outside buffs (which would be a specific nerf to those powers) just to make them all behave the same with one power. |
I really should do something about this signature.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
When nothing critical is affected, it goes to the bottom of the priority heap. But when it prevents a new power working, it jumps to the top.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Eh, no. It would never be allowed to go live in that state.
You CANNOT advertise a power as "buffs healing" and then have a whole bunch of healing powers which are completely unaffected. |
I'd like you to be right and see it work somehow, but I'm not at all certain that it definitely will.
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Incandescence is not advertised as a heal buff, or a defense buff, or any other specific type of buff. Chances are, you will have SOMETHING that it buffs.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Incandescence already fails to buff a variety of powers, and Incandescence is relatively new, and they didn't change things when Incandescence came out.
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If you advertise a power of buffing something specific, then you dam well better make sure it buffs all instances of the thing it claims to buff.
It's the specificity that makes Field Medic different from Power Boost and related powers.
I really should do something about this signature.
I agree with your reasons that it would be a good thing to do, and it's worth bringing up during beta. I'm just not convinced that it will necessarily happen. Power Boost doesn't say anything about not working with certain powers (in fact, it says "your power effects, like {list of effect types} are all improved," emphasis mine), nor Incandescence, and yet here they are.
Use of the word "like" implies a degree of vagueness.
But it would be very unlikely that you use a Power Boost type power and have NOTHING at all be effected. It's almost always going to be of some use somewhere.
However, the vast majority of players are not expert on game-play mechanics. Many will choose Field Medic specifically to buff the self heal for a defense set. They will expect it to work (even the DEVELOPERS expect it to work). If it does nothing, they will feel they have wasted a power pick.
But this really isn't a big deal to fix. We have seen powers undergo huge revisions on beta, most recently with Bio Armor, which is very different now to the version that first hit beta, and even more different to the leaked version, which had several completely different powers. The idea that the new pool powers are likely to go live in a form unchanged from what we have seen is really quite ridiculous.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Yeah, but the idea of "presence" itself means affecting how someone reacts (or doesn't react) to you. It means being charismatic or intimidating enough to steal the spotlight, or persuasive enough to pass the spotlight onto someone or something else.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
The rumoured Sorcery is rumoured to have a fairly random selection of different types of power.
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So it is rather baffling that the fifth Presence power will be "now I'm less tired!" with no direct effect on enemies at all. That doesn't match the theme at all.
As useful as the new ability looks (heck, I don't mind having another Self Rez), it doesn't really fit the pool's theme at all.
Could make it an ally buff instead of a self buff, but that overlaps with Leadership.
Plenty of time for changes anyway.
I really should do something about this signature.
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It implies vagueness that the list is not exhaustive, but when it specifically lists "defense buffs" as one of the kinds of effects that will be improved, one would certainly expect it to improve defense buffs, and certainly not to exclude only some defense buffs for no reason that would be apparent to someone without knowledge of the technicalities of the way powers interact, and the reasoning behind it. And you would DEFINITELY expect that, if it specifically lists knockback, it should at least affect SOME knockback, because such a simple text error shouldn't have made it through beta, and even if it did should not have gone uncorrected for years. What a player might reasonably expect just from reading the description is not necessarily what they get.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Use of the word "like" implies a degree of vagueness.
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Again: I agree with you that it should be addressed. I'm still not convinced that it will definitely be addressed, or that "it will never be allowed to go live in that state". It's the certainty I disagree with, not the reasoning.
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You filed a bug report on that recently?|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
And you would DEFINITELY expect that, if it specifically lists knockback, it should at least affect SOME knockback, because such a simple text error shouldn't have made it through beta
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It's a different set of developers now. It's quite likely they don't even know.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Slight correction: This was done as a means of giving Fear powers a purpose in I4 Arena PvP. Prior to I4, "fear" type powers would use the effect of Afraid, which is nothing more than an AI flag to cause the critter to run away from the source of the effect. Obviously, this couldn't work on players (some games have tried it and it sucks), so a different effect was needed which wouldn't require the AI piloting a player character. Hence, Terrorize, which acts like a hold but one that suppresses itself for a very small window whenever the Terrorized target is attacked.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
All fear powers used to cause fleeing, but it was hated by the players so the Terrorize effect was added and all "Fear" powers became Terrorize.
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I'm still not entirely sure how Terrorize works, but I do know that being unable to queue up powers while Terrorized so that they can fire whenever the short window of opportunity presents itself means you have to basically spam the button and flood your Combat channel with "You can't use powers while terrorized."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sure you can. Take a look at set bonuses. The ones that "Improve Healing" don't buff self heals with Toxic resistance. Incandescence and Clarion both claim to improve heals but actually only improve certain types of heals.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
You CANNOT advertise a power as "buffs healing" and then have a whole bunch of healing powers which are completely unaffected.
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Issue 24 has been described by the devs as "fix everything". So if it doesn't get fixed in issue 24, it will never get fixed at all. If they can't fix that, they will simply change Field Medic, either the way it functions, or into a completely different power. The cottage rule doesn't apply until a power goes live. We have seen MASSIVE changes to powers on the beta server, there is no reason to assume the pool changes are anything like set in stone. |
As for changing Field Medic I find that extremely unlikely. The purpose of that power is to make Aid Other and Aid Self more effective and it works just fine for that (since both of those will benefit from it). I doubt that the devs are going to change it just because some powers in other sets don't benefit from it.
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Correction correction: Fear powers were converted to Terrorize in I3, before PvP hit test. The change was meant to address the fact that players did not like using Fear powers with the original mechanics, in particular Cloak of Fear and the Spectral Terror were explicit offenders.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Slight correction: This was done as a means of giving Fear powers a purpose in I4 Arena PvP. Prior to I4, "fear" type powers would use the effect of Afraid, which is nothing more than an AI flag to cause the critter to run away from the source of the effect. Obviously, this couldn't work on players (some games have tried it and it sucks), so a different effect was needed which wouldn't require the AI piloting a player character. Hence, Terrorize, which acts like a hold but one that suppresses itself for a very small window whenever the Terrorized target is attacked.
I'm still not entirely sure how Terrorize works, but I do know that being unable to queue up powers while Terrorized so that they can fire whenever the short window of opportunity presents itself means you have to basically spam the button and flood your Combat channel with "You can't use powers while terrorized." |
Terrorize is essentially a non-detoggling hold that has a small chance to suppress if the target is attacked. For critters, it usually boils down to them being able to attack once every eight to twelve seconds if continuously attacked. I've always suspected that Terrorize is the ancestor of all suppression effects.
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Just to kind of throw my hat in. I wonder if the "run away" effect gained in things like caltrops is possible to be enforec without the Slow?DoT effect. Because an Toggle or Hybrid toggle aura that causes that effect with some of the self-buffs of current Unyielding would be pretty cool. I'd especially love it if it made you Walk(but doubt it would)
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.