The problem is I think that less than 30% of the customer base plays on Red side, so trying to make new content there is kind of a losing proposition.
What I think would work is allow Heroes to visit Red side for new content. I think at least some of the population would like to voyeuristically visit Red side but doesn't want to go Vigilante, so there'd be interest in sneaking over to Red side just as a Hero. This way there could be new content for Rogues Isles but all of the players would get to experience it.
New stuff is being added, just slowly, as with anything else. Redside works on an economy of zones because every redside zone is basically a combo city zone and hazard zone, which works out a bit better than the separation of the two blue side, where you have defunct hazard zones people only go to for badges or mission doors.
Devs have basically said that new content is going to be one of two things, either co-op (ex: First Ward, Night Ward, Dark Astoria) or 'equal' content, that is, when blue side gets something exclusive, red side gets something too.
For example, the Twinshot/Graves arcs, the Steel Canyon/Cap Au Diable arcs, Mortimer Kal/Admiral Sutter taskforces.
So stuff is coming, just not super fast. Though frankly I doubt we're going to see anymore exclusively redside zones anymore. So far if it's a new place to hang out it's going to be co-op, although the zone arcs don't necessarily have to be. Not to say that redside can't see zone revamps, or that blueside zones can't be revamped to co-op (ala Dark Astoria). But I don't really see any new zones being created exclusively for villains, since zones cost so much in development time and resources.
And it's true there is no Maria Jenkins style arc for redside, the same can be said of the Patron arcs for blueside, there's no equivalent. It's just one of those pros/cons about redside vs blueside. Frankly I think both sides are severely lacking in content options when it comes to the late game. Because of how higher levels require increasingly larger amounts of XP you can burn through all the available arcs without topping out, or you quickly run into repeat content on multiple characters. I'm honestly growing tired of the Peregrine contacts just because I've hit end game with enough characters I've run all the contacts multiple times because there just isn't anything else. Only to be compounded by Dark Astoria (though that's less of a problem because I -really- enjoy that).
As it is, the content in the game is just pyramid shaped. Lots and lots and lots of options in the lower ranges, but as you travel up the chain it gets fewer and far between or a similar amount doesn't have the same pay off because of higher XP requirements so you end up going through more of it, if not all of it, before moving onto to still higher range stuff. I'd personally prefer if the game was top heavier, more to do in the late game, and it is slowly improving, just, slowly being the keyword (and while trials are lategame content, I don't feel they really add as much to the end game simply because of how quick they are).
So redside -is- evolving and getting more toys, it's just taking a while.
It's also worth noting that some of the lack of content redside is a product of responding to lessons learned in blueside content.
Yes, blueside has more zones, but when you really look at it, it's not as many more as it seems. Where blueside has two zones at the same level range (Steel/Skyway; Talos/IP; FF/Bricks), the original content is exactly the same. Different contacts offer exactly the same missions (and you'll only be introduced to one of them on any given character). You do get something else to look at and a different feel for a given zone, but having two 10-19 zones doesn't actually mean twice the content.
When they realized that people weren't interested in hazard zones, they largely left them out of redside; thus the absence of a villain equivalent to the gorgeous but usually empty Perez Park, or the incredibly dull and almost always empty Boomtown.
People complained about always having to travel between zones, so they largely eliminated that redside, as well.
Yeah, redside needs more content. It doesn't have an equivalent to the Shadow Shard (though blueside doesn't have an equivalent to the patron arcs). And the "let villains run essentially heroic content for the greater good" policy of making new zones open to both factions isn't a great solution. But it's also worth noting that it isn't as unbalanced as it looks.
(I'd also argue that the overall quality of the story arcs redside is better than the equivalents blueside. I'd far rather run Vernon von Grun's arc than Unai Kemen's; or the Radio than, say, Bonefire. The best arcs blueside are better than the best arcs redside, but I'd argue that the overall average is higher redside.).
Edit: Just saw Agent White's post, and seeing that I repeated some of his points. I want to add my agreement that more 35-50 content would be welcome. Other than the (excellent) RWZ arcs and the rewritten Maria Jenkins/Tina MacIntyre arcs, there's nothing beyond legacy content until you hit level cap (oh yeah, one or two arcs in Cimerora). And the blueside material is an especially tiresome slog.
Blue side may have more content, but that's because a majority of it is really old and sucks. So it's a quantity over quality thing, where Red's arcs have higher quality where blue has more quantity. And like others have said, nowadays they keep a balance of content so scales aren't tipped one way or the other. Except when blueside got a new Positron and Sister P TF, and also got to keep the old ones. But those are an exception 'cause the old ones were terribad and needed to be tossed.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
And it's true there is no Maria Jenkins style arc for redside, the same can be said of the Patron arcs for blueside, there's no equivalent. It's just one of those pros/cons about redside vs blueside.
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Villains do sorta kinda have access to Maria's arcs. They can go rogue and run Maria's arc. Yes, I know that's not at all what the OP wants, but it is a solution of sorts.
Blueside has a lot more zones, but that just means more empty zones in general.
The "big zones" blueside for me are:
Atlas
Steel Canyon
Talos
Bricks
Founders
Peregrine
Those are truly about the only zones any toon of mine sees on a regular basis. Sure I go to Perez for a few minutes...and Skyway too, but they get very little play time compared to the others.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Mmm no, that's actually not correct. Someone can go Rogue and -take part- in Maria Jenkin's arc, but it's a fallacy to say they have access to it. Rogues and Vigilantes cannot start arcs on the opposite side. They can start Taskforces (as I've been told, haven't actually tried it yet) and do tips and newspaper missions, but the only way for a Rogue to play in maria's arc is for a hero/vigilante to start it and invite them to team. |
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Villains do sorta kinda have access to Maria's arcs. They can go rogue and run Maria's arc. Yes, I know that's not at all what the OP wants, but it is a solution of sorts.
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And I'll agree that redside vs blueside tends to be quantity vs quality with a couple caveats. Honestly I feel Redside is a bit more difficult because it has this tendency to just lob bosses and elite bosses at you during arcs (and tips and SSAs). And there's a number of contacts that're locked behind some ridiculously obscure badge requirements (some are easy. but you couldn't possibly find some without working towards them specifically). And I do think that Redside could use a -bit- more quantity. It's more economic but I'd also say it's almost too spartan in its economy. One of the nice things about Blueside's quantity is that I have -lots- of options on how to run my characters. I can do Atlas, I can run DFB, I can go to Faultline, I can go to King's Row, I can go to Faultline, I can go to Talos/First Ward (though 35+, yah, narrows in). Redside? Mercy/DFB -> Port -> Cap -> Sharkhead/First Ward -> Nerva/St Martial -> Grandville. The co-op elements with First/Night Ward, Cimerora and RWZ add -some- but it still feels pretty linear (and in fact because of the aforementioned growing XP gap, I'd say Cimerora and RWZ are almost not optional, which really kills their replay value on the 5th, 6th, etc character). There is a fair amount of redundancy in blueside that could be cut down on, but I wouldn't mind a little more Redside for the sake of variety. No matter how good the arcs are, you can and will get tired of running them too often. Actually it's part of why I'm -glad- we have the patron arcs, don't have to serve the same patron every time.
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You really should check up on things before doing a thread like this. Especially since some fool starts a thread on it every month.|
Originally Posted by deadpool415
I am just curious as to what seems a lack of content on Red side. I would first address the zone issue, as Blue side seems to have a much larger number of zones, also Maria Jenkins Arc. Red side has nothing I can truly compare to Maria Jenkins and though the missions have a nice script it seems like it lacks in some exploration terms. Red side correct me if I am wrong as not clear access to The Shadow Shard, which cuts us off from certain missions in there. I understand that with the release of Freedom it blended the two sides together, but some focus on Red side content would be nice.
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There is NO lack of content redside at all. Saying there is a 'lack' someone implies you struggle to hit 50 redside, while playing the content that is there. This is utter garbage. Redside actually seems to progress better to me, and has a LOT less of those arcs that send you around to 5 different zones over and over. Or shall I bring up PI and unai's arc? Are you classing that as 'content'? 20 missions with ruptures over and over?
About all you can actually say in there is an Imbalance in content, simply cause blue has more zones. But again..are there more zones that actually get used? Even more so with DFB below ones basically wiping out kr, steel, skyway, the hollows and faultline.. Oh what about teh Shard? Because that is such a well played bit of content..
Please think before you say there is a lack of red content. Just cause YOU may not like playing there, does not mean it is lacking in any way. Go have fun doing Unai's arc.
Having started red side and now moved blue side I completely agree with the above posters. Red side content is more streamlined and polished and there is more than enough there to progress to 50. however, I stopped doing the regular arcs years ago, I will do Trials, Random Instances or AE these days to progress and use flashback later if I need anything from the regular arcs. (Except Mayhem grr(devs please fix)).
Actually, yeah, no access to the Shadow Shard is really not a hindrance. The Shard zones have no actual story outside of the 4 Grueling task forces. There's a small arc that shows you around the place, but then it just devolves into endless repeatable missions. Villains aren't missing out because Heroes tend to skip the place as it is anyway.
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The shard is one of the coolest looking zones in the game and well worth the time to check out if you have never been there. If you ever watched the movie Avatar you can easily tell that at least one of their writers plays CoH (and has no ethical trouble ripping off ideas for their movie.)
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Actually, yeah, no access to the Shadow Shard is really not a hindrance. The Shard zones have no actual story outside of the 4 Grueling task forces. There's a small arc that shows you around the place, but then it just devolves into endless repeatable missions. Villains aren't missing out because Heroes tend to skip the place as it is anyway.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
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Yeah, I LOVE the shadow shard. I just wish that there were more reasons to go there. I would seriously love to see the Shadow Shard TFs revamped.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
The shard is one of the coolest looking zones in the game and well worth the time to check out if you have never been there. If you ever watched the movie Avatar you can easily tell that at least one of their writers plays CoH (and has no ethical trouble ripping off ideas for their movie.)
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The game has limited resources.|
Originally Posted by deadpool415
I am just curious as to what seems a lack of content on Red side.
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Most players prefer blue side.
So blue side is going to get most of the resources.
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I'll agree there. Visually it's stunning. Though practically, it's kind of a pain in the ***. It's worth checking out once or twice, but contentwise there's no real reason to go there unless you're a total masochist.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
The shard is one of the coolest looking zones in the game and well worth the time to check out if you have never been there. If you ever watched the movie Avatar you can easily tell that at least one of their writers plays CoH (and has no ethical trouble ripping off ideas for their movie.)
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I must correct you on this. It was not that players didnt want hazard zones, it was that the dev team running the game way back then decided they wanted players to do missions. So they ramped up mission completion XP. I know currently mission completion XP doesnt feel really all that great compared to the amount you get from critters now, especially bosses, but thats because they changed the XP for them too, a while later. At the time of the original mission XP change, it was rather significant. This was combined with a "half debt while in a mission" change, again, significant when the leveling XP curve was outrageous and debt was actually potent enough to be a real detriment. |
Originally Posted by Guinefort
It's also worth noting that some of the lack of content redside is a product of responding to lessons learned in blueside content.
When they realized that people weren't interested in hazard zones, they largely left them out of redside; thus the absence of a villain equivalent to the gorgeous but usually empty Perez Park, or the incredibly dull and almost always empty Boomtown. |
Prior to those changes, the player base was more then happy to street sweep both city zones and hazard zones, in fact especially hazard zones(carny town comes to mind) because you could find huge spawns on a smaller team which increased challenge and also reward rate for skilled players.
And so I must correct you- the hazard zones are ghost towns by the dev's own design.
When critter XP was changed again, there was a very brief revival of zone sweeps with small teams, but soon after they snuck in some code that made the hazard zone spawns react to team size(they used to just be huge spawns. i mean huge like 15-20 minions with a liut or two and a boss in there) so now a small team gets to face mid size or even smaller spawns. That was basically the cement shoes for the zones, and no one has looked back since.
The reason for the dev's desire to corral people into missions? "We spend all this time making these cool stories and maps, and nobody goes in them because they would rather run around on the streets blasting bad guys". Or something akin to that anyway. I actually miss making a new hero, entering Galaxy City and patroling the streets near the hospitol, rescuing citizens from thug activity like muggings. Saving that lady who was getting assaulted by some purse snatcher, and then having her run up to me to thank me after just never got old. I would save people while traveling between missions, against grey cons, just because it was the right thing to do, even if it is just a silly game. It was HEROIC. It was what originally made my wife start playing the game, she watched me save a few helpless ladies and wanted to "save people too". There's still a few legacy spawns around town that you can still do that in, but really those types of little things have gotten left behind in favor of stopping the aliens from destroying the multiverse. But I suppose I am just being nostalgic.
So, TLDR: the devs made a conscious decision to push players from one content type to another. It was not a change brought about by the players. The dev team is responsible for players abandoning the zones they created through the changes they made.
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I am fairly certain the shard will see a revamp similar to dark astoria(though possibly not with solo content in mind) as a place to work on things like omega slot. Whats scarier then Tyrant? How bout Rularuu. Incarnate level eyeball enemies....shiver.... take that defense bonus IO builds!
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Originally Posted by Agent White
I'll agree there. Visually it's stunning. Though practically, it's kind of a pain in the ***. It's worth checking out once or twice, but contentwise there's no real reason to go there unless you're a total masochist.
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Heh I learned how to navigate the shard using a scrapper with Jumping as his travel pool......|
Originally Posted by Agent White
I'll agree there. Visually it's stunning. Though practically, it's kind of a pain in the ***. It's worth checking out once or twice, but contentwise there's no real reason to go there unless you're a total masochist.
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I would still rather navigate the shard that way, than Grandville any day.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
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Aside from some of the other points made (and, honestly, I agree redside needs more zones - more *specific* redside zones - just to break the railroad feel it has now,) I think one other thing needs to be pointed out.
When you run redside - how often are you a *villain* as opposed to, essentially, a thug or a lackey? "Go rob this casino," meh. "Hey, steal this for me just to be foiled!" Eh. There are *very* few arcs that make you feel like "The Villain." It's something that's been complained about for quite some time, and is one of the things that pushed people away from redside.
However, aside from AE... it's *really* hard to write a "Universal You're The Villain" arc without making assumptions. Browse through some of the various threads about redside - and co-op - arcs. Even back in I9 with the Rikti invasion, where we got our first major co-op zone revamp... it was less co-op and really not all that fitting to a villain trying to get some sort of advantage. Sure, we had the whole "save the world" bit... but there was no option to "....and get ahead while you're at it," or even "... Or help the other side and watch the world burn." Heck, first RWZ arc even puts down redside with the "The rikti have sent an invasion force. I know the Rogue Isles don't seem like a place worth saving..." line.
Basically, if you want to be a villain, being the proactive driver of the world, forcing heroes to react to you... you can't play redside arcs, for the most part. You have to write your own way through AE with your own character's motivations.
For many people, that's just a dealbreaker.
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I would agree with this. The "contacts" system was basically directly ported from hero side and unfortunatly did not get enough attention when CoV beta was going on, as most players were concerned about the new AT's. Really, "contacts" should have been almost exclusively unlocked by saving them in missions, or buying their services. in a way, sort of like the brokers, but they ALL should have worked that way. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Aside from some of the other points made (and, honestly, I agree redside needs more zones - more *specific* redside zones - just to break the railroad feel it has now,) I think one other thing needs to be pointed out.
When you run redside - how often are you a *villain* as opposed to, essentially, a thug or a lackey? "Go rob this casino," meh. "Hey, steal this for me just to be foiled!" Eh. There are *very* few arcs that make you feel like "The Villain." It's something that's been complained about for quite some time, and is one of the things that pushed people away from redside. However, aside from AE... it's *really* hard to write a "Universal You're The Villain" arc without making assumptions. Browse through some of the various threads about redside - and co-op - arcs. Even back in I9 with the Rikti invasion, where we got our first major co-op zone revamp... it was less co-op and really not all that fitting to a villain trying to get some sort of advantage. Sure, we had the whole "save the world" bit... but there was no option to "....and get ahead while you're at it," or even "... Or help the other side and watch the world burn." Heck, first RWZ arc even puts down redside with the "The rikti have sent an invasion force. I know the Rogue Isles don't seem like a place worth saving..." line. Basically, if you want to be a villain, being the proactive driver of the world, forcing heroes to react to you... you can't play redside arcs, for the most part. You have to write your own way through AE with your own character's motivations. For many people, that's just a dealbreaker. |
for instance, instead of having to go run some errend, you could be rolling through town, and pick a random door to find random guys to fight inside, or none at all even, and random loot to gain. be it money, or componants or shematcis for some device(that you could sell if you didnt want to use it) and occasionally some guy you would have an option of saving(or disposing of).
This way, you are doing your own thing for your own gains. and that guy you (maybe) saved? He will show up on your map, and you can go to him for information. not"hey thanks for saving my bacon, now go bust up that casino" but more, " I hear there is going to be a pricey jewel in xxxxx warehouse until 4 ocklock" and then you can go there, or not. Or maybe that guy is a traitor and when you go there you get ambushed. Maybe if you tipped him for the info he would be more reliable.
There should be the normal story arcs, but they needed to have some rewards not tied to "being a good guy" like a lot of them feel now. Like rikti war zone. I would love it if you could go into a rikti cave/base, and instead of saving some longbow or fighting the boss, you could steel some rikti tech and leave. And then sell it. or use it to build a ray gun. or use it to build a portal generator, and then summon a portal full of hostile rikti wherever you want, like say, in the longbow base, or next to Seer Marino, or in that warehouse with the jewel so the guards are distracted.
See, thats a villain. You do it for money, or to further some plot, or just for fame. "Did you hear Villain X let a bunch of Rikti loose inside the university and then punched the Dean in the nose and robbed the storehouse of it's Impervium?!!" You know, that kind of thing.
Those story arcs about "that'd be bad for buisness", even in the morality tip missions- they would mean a lot more if there was actually "buisness" going on.
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They have been getting better. The new Cap Au Diable arcs were quite well done and done in the vain of A) A villain meeting a rube and taking total advantage of him and B) An arachnos agent letting you in on something and giving you free reign.
Dark Astoria as well is written pretty well. Still in the 'omgsave the world' vein but with several points where you can be a villain about it, ESPECIALLY the climax.
But yeah, most co-op content in the game is very Hero oriented. I'm kind of hoping the next co-op zone, be it Incarnate or whatever, is set up like Cimerora with both alignments getting to head in but each side having their own respective arcs (Though, hopefully arcs that actually take place IN the zone instead of running you all over ;p)
I think thats the best one could hope for, as there is an inherent problem with "co-op" zones to begin with. See, a villain may be coerced into saving the world "so theres a world to rule after!! HAHAHAHA HAAA!!!" but you would be hard pressed, i think, to coerce a hero into robbing people, destroying the world, building super weopons to hold people ransom, you know all that stuff they are sworn to fight.
Which is why I would love to see alternative mission completion things, like steeling the rikti tech. Vangard sends you to save Srgt. Cliche of Longbow. Instead you go in there and steel a rikti portal gun. From Vangard's perspective, "well, we will have to send someone else to save Srgt. Cliche, but at least Villain X busted up like 100 Rikti soldiers, should be hard for Captain Weaksauce to go in behind him now and save the day." So, I could see that kind of thing being workable in lore.
A villain side coop zone- hard to rationalize why Captian Amazing would want to help Villain X steel that Rikti Hyperlaser schematic to hold city hall ransom.
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Well described; I imagine the devs hit that wall themselves which is why they went with the red-side they did.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
However, aside from AE... it's *really* hard to write a "Universal You're The Villain" arc without making assumptions ... [snip] Basically, if you want to be a villain, being the proactive driver of the world, forcing heroes to react to you... you can't play redside arcs, for the most part. You have to write your own way through AE with your own character's motivations.
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Well, that and I think they were being highly conservative with the "T for Teen" rating. I mean, until you get to Phipps (in the I6/i7 timeframe,) they seem to be *right* along with the "No, no, nobody's killed, just.... defeated, whatever that means to you." There may be a lot of things implied at places, but aside from 1-2 arcs earlier on, you don't really deal with the *personal* consequences of your actions until you learn "Oh, a widow and her children are now blind and totally dependant on Phipps," for instance. |
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Well described; I imagine the devs hit that wall themselves which is why they went with the red-side they did.
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They've gotten a little blunter lately with actually having people die (and not just states.) But that rating concern, I think, also really held back what they could have done with redside.
However, yes, I think that wall (motivation) was a bigger obstacle. While there are... degrees of heroes (from superpowered boyscout to vigilante,) they don't make *much* difference - you're still fine saving everything from a kitten in a tree to multiple worlds. A villain, though... some just want everything for themselves, some have specific agendas, some think they really *are* doing good by their own yardstick, and some, as stated, "want to watch the world burn." Short of flat out asking at the beginning and having four (or more) storyarc tracks from 1-50, I'm not sure how they could accommodate all the various villain flavors. (And they'd still leave some out, I'm sure.)
I am just curious as to what seems a lack of content on Red side. I would first address the zone issue, as Blue side seems to have a much larger number of zones, also Maria Jenkins Arc. Red side has nothing I can truly compare to Maria Jenkins and though the missions have a nice script it seems like it lacks in some exploration terms. Red side correct me if I am wrong as not clear access to The Shadow Shard, which cuts us off from certain missions in there. I understand that with the release of Freedom it blended the two sides together, but some focus on Red side content would be nice.