Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I know I sort of have a habit of badmouthing the game's writing and nit-picking fairly minor plot points, and I'm more guilty than most of getting too used to complaining to appreciate legitimate improvement |
Try to read past the first sentence, please.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
where've you been, Sam?
I've missed your sunny optimism! =D
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Burned out on all the name-calling over Performance Amplifiers or whatever those were called.
Honestly, though, I do think the writing in this game has improved, and greatly. It's hard to appreciate it when I've followed it every step of the way - the change is quite gradual - but seeing some of the more errant old content really puts newer content in perspective. For instance, I sometimes tend to be cynical towards Dark Astoria, but it's still a VERY solid story despite some minor flubs here and there. It's easy to dismiss a good story over small faults, which is why First Ward was such an eye-opening experience. It reminded me just how far we've gone, and it's actually quite uplifting to thing about the game in this respect.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Hey, that's what /ignore's for! |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Burned out on all the name-calling over Performance Amplifiers or whatever those were called.
|
Quote:
| Honestly, though, I do think the writing in this game has improved, and greatly. It's hard to appreciate it when I've followed it every step of the way - the change is quite gradual - but seeing some of the more errant old content really puts newer content in perspective. For instance, I sometimes tend to be cynical towards Dark Astoria, but it's still a VERY solid story despite some minor flubs here and there. It's easy to dismiss a good story over small faults, which is why First Ward was such an eye-opening experience. It reminded me just how far we've gone, and it's actually quite uplifting to thing about the game in this respect. |
Most of the stuff that drives you crazy is still a huge improvement on things that were 'gold standard' when I started my hiatus.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
The understatement just made me chuckle.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Try to read past the first sentence, please.
|
Quote:
The funny thing is I don't actually mind most of the REALLY old stuff. I find that what the writers have reached recently is pretty much the perfect balance between the old and the new. I actually tried playing through First Ward with Nuclear Toast the other day, and the result is my head got overloaded. There's something to read and something to respond to nearly all the time in that zone, so I was trying to pay attention to the story AND banter with NT and the result is I got a headache. Contrast this with, say, Dark Astoria, which has both a pretty good story with a lot to read AND a lot of uninterrupted action.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
If you want to really have your eyes opened take a year off like I did.
Most of the stuff that drives you crazy is still a huge improvement on things that were 'gold standard' when I started my hiatus. |
Additionally, I'm also rarely affected by mediocre content. If it's just "eh," I don't really care one way or the other. It's when it's really good or REALLY bad that I have to stop and try to figure out WHY this is like that. I know you're referring to the older zones and contacts, but they're more or less mediocre, with some good stories if you know where to look. I can't muster up the will to rage about them, and there's really not much that's remarkable about their stories. Most of what REALLY bugs me is fairly new, roughly I17-I18 in age.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I really, really, REALLY like the Dark Astoria stuff I've played so far.
Which is surprising, given that the 'original' was my favorite zone in the entire game.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
It's kind of the perfect storm of circumstances, really. It has the "edge" of First Ward but the closure of ye olde content. It has the fleshed-out characters of newer storytelling, but without the annoying quirks. It's an ostensibly dark story that still manages to stay positive for the most part. I can't really fault it on any fundamental level. I can pick minor complaints, sure, but those aren't important, plus I can do that with everything.
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I really, really, REALLY like the Dark Astoria stuff I've played so far.
Which is surprising, given that the 'original' was my favorite zone in the entire game. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
See, I hate Katie Douglas for completely different reasons...
One of my first playthroughs of First Ward was on a highly trained psychic character (a Fortunata), and it just flat out pissed me off that the way she was written (Such as being able to read the PC's mind with absolutely no effort) absolutely trivialized my character's own power(s).
That just annoyed me so much that I hate her, even on characters who's minds she actually WOULD be able to read.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Quote:
Understandable...but all things considered, Penny Yin came about doing the same thing. Are we going to hate any character that comes along and claims the title of 'Most Powerful [insert]' or are we looking at the circumstances? While Katie may be a particularly strong, headstrong and obnoxious psychic, does that really undermine your Fortunata who can wade through fields of apparitions and come back to tell the tale (while little lady Katie goes *kaboom*(read: dies))?|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
See, I hate Katie Douglas for completely different reasons...
One of my first playthroughs of First Ward was on a highly trained psychic character (a Fortunata), and it just flat out pissed me off that the way she was written (Such as being able to read the PC's mind with absolutely no effort) absolutely trivialized my character's own power(s). That just annoyed me so much that I hate her, even on characters who's minds she actually WOULD be able to read. |
Ironically, I've been playing First Ward myself namely because I've never gotten around to playing Night Ward and since the one I had planned to play it outleveled it before I ever knew about it, it took a while to come up with a character story reason (and a new character) that explains this.
Playing through FW on a magic robot, I find Katie cynically humorous. Beyond that, with the interaction of the Apparitions possibly affecting the resolve and actions of everyone, Katie herself has the main strength of being a good telepath and a skilled teleporter but she's hardly a fighter (combat prowess, not fist-fighter). I'm okay with that. Some people play 'plot device' because it can make things easier to explain and she dabbles in that field while being somewhat funny while doing it and doesn't take away from my characters who fulfill their own position as 'plot device'...but then that's a whole other beef I'd have with the story...that we can't lose. Even if we had the tech to write such branches into every story, it's the pain-in-the-*** playerbase that would get on my nerves with relentless whining that they don't want their heroes to fail.
Anyway, tangent off: It's fair and all to hold your opinions of the game and the story and the writers. But if you're looking for a remedy or a ray of sunshine to the every gray skies of lore and storytelling, it's near impossible to find and/or keep. I find, looking at media with the eye of a critic can really ruin your outlook on a lot of things. That's why I don't particularly care to critique people's stuff, their art, their writing or whatever if only because it feels like you have to be intentionally *looking* for something to comment on or critique rather than enjoying something for what it is.
A lot of people can and still have fun and/or enjoy things like games and movies, but I find I cannot. I watch a movie, laugh at the funny, cheer at the important good parts, love the action parts and then when it's over, put it down and walk away. I find myself enjoying the old content for what it was (although a lot of time it's more telling than showing) but at the end of the day, it was an excursion designed to burn some time. Burning more time complaining about it feels unproductive to me. Granted, I love discussing stuff and having a back and forth about such things (I can definitely see how Katie could be hated or how her dialog wouldn't work with certain types of characters) as that's more an interaction with those you're discussing with. But it's hard for me to go out of my way to really say if something's good or bad which is different from liking and disliking.
Another tangent: I found Dark Astoria to be 'meh'. I guess it's easier to feel it's so awesome because they put more at stake, but that doesn't automatically make things better.
Quote:
If anything it annoys me more because my character is demonstrably stronger than her. That just goes to show that there's absolutely no possible reason she should be able to read my mind. And yet she does.
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Understandable...but all things considered, Penny Yin came about doing the same thing. Are we going to hate any character that comes along and claims the title of 'Most Powerful [insert]' or are we looking at the circumstances? While Katie may be a particularly strong, headstrong and obnoxious psychic, does that really undermine your Fortunata who can wade through fields of apparitions and come back to tell the tale (while little lady Katie goes *kaboom*(read: dies))?
|
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
You hate everything.
Quote:
In the matrix, the oracle could tell things about what would happen while the one, someone obviously more powerful, could not.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
If anything it annoys me more because my character is demonstrably stronger than her. That just goes to show that there's absolutely no possible reason she should be able to read my mind. And yet she does.
|
Like I was mentioning, combat prowess doesn't always equal plot prowess and vice versa.
Unless there's a mission demonstrating your fortunata reading his/her foes' minds into defeat, who's to say who's better at reading thoughts. Reading thoughts is not a combat oriented skill and therefore is not intrinsic to your character's powers because no such mechanics are available in this game.
That isn't to say I'm saying you don't have a leg to argue on, I'm just saying it's a plot-driven point all the same that our characters are in the same 'I always win' plot point position.
Quote:
No, that's Venture.
|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
You hate everything.
|
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
|
Quote:
They're both pretty strong in the Dark Side. Buuut yeah, I gotta give the award to Venture. Sam I at least agree with from time to time.
|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
No, that's Venture.
|
Quote:
Not to mention Sam's capable of of enjoying things, like an anonymous on any 4chan board other than /b/.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
They're both pretty strong in the Dark Side. Buuut yeah, I gotta give the award to Venture. Sam I at least agree with from time to time.
|
Venture is like... Well he's like an anon on /b/.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
|
Quote:
The thing is, if I repeatedly find myself disliking a work in progress that I used to like, I start asking what changed, and mostly, what can I do about it. In most forms of media, there are only two options, suck it up and hope for things to change or walk away and never look back. In MMOs, and especially in this one, I have a third option, which is to complain about stuff in the forums and hope that a red name will read it and sympathise.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I find, looking at media with the eye of a critic can really ruin your outlook on a lot of things. That's why I don't particularly care to critique people's stuff, their art, their writing or whatever if only because it feels like you have to be intentionally *looking* for something to comment on or critique rather than enjoying something for what it is.
|
In this case, the whole Who Will Die, Death Incarnate, Death from Below and the rest of the recent plague of necrofilic paraphernalia were preventing me from enjoying the game. I don't like emo stuff, which is why I'm playing a supposedly cheerful and lighthearted superhero game instead of a vampire or zombie survival-horror. I love it when a plan comes together, A-Team style, and this can't happen if everyone around me is six-feet under as the story-arc comes to an end. I fully agree with Sam, except, ironically, about First Ward and Katie Douglas (which I really like), so I take my time letting everyone involved know I don't like it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Another tangent: I found Dark Astoria to be 'meh'. I guess it's easier to feel it's so awesome because they put more at stake, but that doesn't automatically make things better.
|
P.S. I can't believe Katie Douglas asked me to pinky-swear in Night-Ward! I though she was supposed to be mentally 15, not 5? Sam, the mood might be heading in the right direction (let heroes be heroes), but the writing seems to be dumbing down abit. Heeroos not need be dumb! Urgh!
Quote:
Add "Who doesn't remember that my former Warden was the person who helped her out in Imperial City."|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
las is a confused but mostly friendly character who's often overwhelmed by the weight of drama, but usually handles this in a positive manner. In First Ward, Katie Douglas is intentionally described as unhined, paranoid, weird and having a problem with other people.
|
Although that does highlight the nice development of conversation trees. Like Dominatrix 'remembering' you if your character went on the right missions in Praetoria.
Quote:
The newest incarnate arc, Belladona Viatrano (sp?), will remember you too, not -sure- of the trigger but for my Resistance character she remembered he'd worked for Robert Flores.
|
Originally Posted by _Tacitala_
Add "Who doesn't remember that my former Warden was the person who helped her out in Imperial City."
Although that does highlight the nice development of conversation trees. Like Dominatrix 'remembering' you if your character went on the right missions in Praetoria. |
Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if she rememebered players who chose the loyalist option when they met her in GR, she's refuse to talk to them |
Originally Posted by Agent White
The newest incarnate arc, Belladona Viatrano (sp?), will remember you too, not -sure- of the trigger but for my Resistance character she remembered he'd worked for Robert Flores.
|
And from the same arc, I'm petty sure that Chimera would also be upset meeting those players too.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Don't know, don't know what all the dialogue triggers are. I'm sure we haven't found all the different variables in Dark Astoria, like Kadabra Kill/Sigil mentioning the Thief of Midnight badge, etc.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm pretty sure that if she rememebered players who chose the loyalist option when they met her in GR, she's refuse to talk to them
And from the same arc, I'm petty sure that Chimera would also be upset meeting those players too. |
Quote:
Actually that reminds me of a situation with a character of mine, loosely based on something called a Blank or a Null from a certain sci-fi universe set in the 41st millennium. Without going too much into details, these people are more or less "psychic black holes", and it's dangerous for a psychic to even stand in close proximity to them, never mind casually jumping in and out of their mind.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
See, I hate Katie Douglas for completely different reasons...
One of my first playthroughs of First Ward was on a highly trained psychic character (a Fortunata), and it just flat out pissed me off that the way she was written (Such as being able to read the PC's mind with absolutely no effort) absolutely trivialized my character's own power(s). That just annoyed me so much that I hate her, even on characters who's minds she actually WOULD be able to read. |
It's that kind of thing which makes me realise the CoH writers have a more or less impossible job - they are writing a story but leaving a hole for the player protagonist, and said protagonist is a completely unknowable value. My character could be a fairly ordinary everyman, or a time-travelling robot, or a mutated goat with telekinetic powers for some reason, or whatever. If they have to tip-toe around every possibility then I'm not sure we'd ever get any sort of story beyond "the bad guys are doing stuff, go stop them".
Sure, it may not be perfectly suited to your specific backstory, but there has to be some give and take here.
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton
Meh, First Ward is...convenient. Good streamlined leveling with some pretty major disappointments. "Whats that you say? You are the one who reminded me that I was once a police officer, reunited me with my wife and best friend, and freed me? Nah, don't remember you." Or "You are the one who reunited me with my father, and helped me free the other seers? Nope. You're the jerkhole who came in here possessed, and I blamed for all this, even though you weren't even HERE when the attack happened." But when I can get past my utter hatred of the breaking of Katies character, the rest of the zone isn't to bad.
Edit: Its also kind of aggrivating when people get angry at the game for not playing to THEIR rules. "I AM THE MOST POWERFUL PSYCHIC IN THE WORLD, YOU CAN NOT READ MY MIND PEASANT!" I get it, you made this character with this back story and these abilities. I just think its silly and a little self centered to expect everything in the game to comply with that.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
Or "How First Ward made me appreciate how far our writers have improved since!"
I don't like First Ward, I make no bones about it. It's a depressing, go-nowhere story that simply stops, and the horrid character derailment of Katie Douglass is probably one of the worst things to happen to a named character until SSA1 divided by zero. However, replaying First Ward now with the promise that Night Ward will make me hate it less by the time I'm done with it, I'm starting to see a very positive side of this game's writing - our writers are learning.
I know I sort of have a habit of badmouthing the game's writing and nit-picking fairly minor plot points, and I'm more guilty than most of getting too used to complaining to appreciate legitimate improvement, but this has never been more obvious to me than re-running First Ward right now as we speak. When I ran First Ward, I was too focused on the admittedly quite complex plot to pay too much attention to the story's style, but replaying it now really shows me a lot of the very bad habits that I'm happy to say have been bred out of more current content. And again, Katie Douglass is probably the best example.
In Praetoria proper, Katie Douglas is a confused but mostly friendly character who's often overwhelmed by the weight of drama, but usually handles this in a positive manner. In First Ward, Katie Douglas is intentionally described as unhined, paranoid, weird and having a problem with other people. Yes, I've seen the arguments about why she might have become that, but as with most fiction, "RP arguments" can explain everything at all. The problem with Katie isn't the "what" of it, it's the "why." I can see an explanation for Katie becoming what she is in First Ward, but WHY did she need to be brought there in the first place? I don't have an exact answer, but I do have an assertion - at the time, our writers felt that angry, angsty, annoying characters and depressing, unrelenting drama were what made a good story. And it... Really doesn't.
Here's the key phrase, though: "At the time." When First Ward came out, hating it was hard, because the story it tells actually is solid on a technical level. For every bad thing I came up to say about it, I could say so much worse about older content. I shudder to even remember the absolute frikkin' MESS that is Roy Cooling. So at the time, First Ward for me was just something that "wasn't for me," but was otherwise good, or about as good as we had. This is no longer the case. I've played through Dark Astoria, I've played through SSA2.1, I've played through Belladonna Vetrano's arc. I've seen that our writers can do so, SO much better.
This is where the thread title comes into play. I've tried to do what I can to cling onto my attachment to Katie Douglas as a character. Explain the change away, try to reinterpret her representation. Then I ran into the "I'll never forget what happened here and I'll always connect it with you, because I have to be a stubborn annoying spiteful jerk!" and I realised it's time to just let the character go. Katie has been screwed up and there really is no recovering from it, but I'm OK with it. She is no longer some vestige from a previous age. The writers of today seem perfectly capable of writing characters I can care about. Heather Townsfield, the new take on Penny Yin, even Dominatrix of all people are well-written enough for me to care.
In a nutshell, what I'm saying is I no longer hate First Ward. I don't like it, gods no! But I can see it now for what it is - an early attempt by our current writers before they quite got a grasp of writing for City of Heroes. As such, it reminds me that these guys do a good job, and when they don't, they at least learn from it. And that's actually worth a lot more than one zone's worth of content, at least to me.