Mastermind vs. Illusion Controller

I was thinking about rolling up an Illusion Troller ("Wow, five pets!"); started Midding up to see what I would need to keep them perma and then the same "Wow, X pets!" dilemma that I had with Dark, Fire and Plant cropped up:

Is it worth the effort when I could just roll up an MM?



What say the forumites?

TIA.

MMs don't have access to Illusion Control so I'm not sure I see the dilemma here.

well mm take some work as well to keep the pets buffed and stuff, and for illusion a majority of your pets are essentially unkillable anyway (only one to worry about is the phantasm)

otherwise i say that they are fairly the same, they both take some work to make good (unless you plan on going with bot/trap or bot/ff as neither of those take really any effort to play lol)

Illusion trollers really don't play like a MM since you don't give commands. I have two Illusion troller my original toon Ill/kin and my AV/GM killer Ill/Rad. I have had much joy with both. I might add I have a Ill/Dark on BETA that is sick as well.

The next controller I'm making (I have a 50 Fire/Storm/Pyre and a 50 Dark/Dark/Soul) will be a Plant/Nature when Nature Affinity is live, but I've also been toying with the idea of an Ill/Time, as my experience with Dark Control has given me a glimpse of how awesome multiple pets can be as far as soloing.

I've never played a Mastermind, frankly, because I don't want to bother with macros and keybinds, and from what I've learned, to be brutally effective keybinds for switching pet stance and such are almost essential.

I'm just lazy and I like to kill things, so "set-and-forget" is the way to go for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

I thought I would like ill/kin or /rad but the lack of pet control still turns me off. I need to be able to send my pets after a single target or call them back to safety.

Yeah, and then there's bodyguard mode, which Illusion/ doesn't get.

I'm sure Illusion is effective it's just that Illusion and Masterminds are pretty different in a lot of ways. Bots/FF almost unkillable, Bots/Dark pretty sick too. But it's hard to make up for having literally an unkillable pet, and MMs often don't really "get going" until late, after the final pet upgrade. So I feel it's really down to personal preference and play style.

Apples vs watermelons

This really is an apples-to-watermelons comparison. If it's all about the pets and you don't care what archetype you're playing... Crab Spiders can have six pets, the same as most Masterminds, and they offer a very different playing experience.

The trouble (?) with Masterminds is that your actual character is quite feeble and harmless... you wield power through your pets, and as your pets get killed your power is diminished. The Illusion controller doesn't have these issues. His attacks have real, noticable effects that can turn the tide of battle, and his Phantom Army can be thrown into any fight and survive. (Crab Spider pets are neither indestructable nor controllable, but the Crab has far greater personal firepower and toughness than either the Controller or Mastermind.)

Illusion was worth it before it was possible to make the pets perma. Why wouldn't it be now?

Not that it's news, but I really, really, REALLY dislike Illusion, so I'm fairly strongly biased towards "Just roll a mastermind." Illusion's one of the only sets I've felt I *needed* to IO to have work properly, which I just don't like - if I want to chase that, it should be because I want to, not because I "need" to. Without PA, it's a fairly weak control set, IMHO.

If you're interested in Storm, you get that with masterminds, as well. It tends, as I recall, to be fairly well regarded in the hands of a MM as well.

I guess the only real answer I can give is "It's all in your personal preference." The only - *only* - reason I kept plugging away with my Illusion 'troller to 50 (and yes, hated at least 3/4 of the time I did so) was because I was trying to get one of each 'troller primary (a) completed (32) and (b) to 50... then we got Electric. And dark.

If you don't like controlling pets, or are trying to finish a collection, roll Illusion, sure. Honestly, I think anyone even remotely interested in control should try it... once. (Then get a real controller that can bring real control)

Otherwise, if I want pets... MM.

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My first 50 was an Illusion/Empathy Controller... an amazing combo back when you could have three Phantasms and hit them with Empathy buffs, but not especially impressive today. However, I do still like Illusion Control, and it's largely because I like pets.

Illusion CAN have great DPS but it's situational, and it's all because of that illusionary/imaginary damage. Since part of your damage heals back in a few seconds, you really need to concentrate on a single target and finish him before he heals. Well, your pets have other ideas. They like to randomly attack everyone in the room. So, when you're attacking a single target, your damage can be really excellent. But you can also throw your pets into a big crowd and feel like you're treading water as you watch your damage healing back.
Your own use of controls and your movement can help to direct their damage against specific targets, and you can pick off the wounded with Spectral Wounds.

Permanent Phantom Army is certainly desirable. If you have a secondary like Radiation or Time that gives you a recharge boost, go for it. If not, you'll have to decide for yourself how much of your build to sacrifice on the altar of recharge bonuses. I personally found that a short gap in my PA coverage was not really a problem. Spectral Terror and your own controls can keep things manageable if your Phantom Army disappears briefly. Even the Phantasm Decoy has a taunt to help distract your foes.

I have both..My Ill/rad can be a bit frustrating at times(Then again i am probably doing it wrong) Endurance issues(Big one for me right now), AOES, that one guy that decides to break free of all your pets and fly over to slap you in the face. On a troller with no defense that hurts let me tell you! But MMs have some issues as well....

Ill/rad is expensive but you have been around awhile so that might not be an issues for you.If it is.. you defiantly want to get a secondary with some + recharge (rad, time etc) It helps keep the cost of perma down

The biggest difference i can think of is lack of pet control.. When you have a target and you want to fire on JUST that target Illusion pets just do there thing, granted MM pets do there thing too but at least you can scold them!

Personally? I prefer my MMs (I Still adore my Ill/rad though) I Use bots you don't have to spend Billions to make one decent.

Now if you Do not want to play the pet mini game which is a massive amount of micromanaging Go Illusion.

One last thing.. If you do Itrials.. Illusion In my opinion does a bit better on high movement trials.

One thing though, I find I don't manage my MM pets that much. Yes, when the going gets tough, the Masterminds issues a lot of commands. But most of the time I don't have to do that.

Put pets on aggressive, put pets on follow. That happens about once per spawn. Or less, if things are really going well, I can just leave pets on aggressive for a whole mission and they're fine. Occasionally I issue a command (follow, usually, sometimes attack).

Bots do good damage though, and are pretty tough, so I might be biased. I tried Ninjas and Necro, didn't find those as easy to deal with (played neither to very high levels though).

I am not going to say some people here don't know what they are talking about, I will say they appear to have a fairly limited perspective regarding this issue.

An Ill/Rad with perma-PA is the prototypical power Illusionist since the perma-PA will keep the enemies off you and eventually kill any foe, even GMs because of Rad's debuffs.

Eventually.

The benefit of MMs is that you can get a much higher damage potential out of them even more than what an Ill/Rad can do... but you have to work harder at it with more management (but not with a multitude of binds and macros... attack aggressive, passive, and body guard modes are all you really need). And with MMs, the fine controls do come in handy at times.... it's aggravating when your PA is attacking underling monkeys and avoiding the Elite Boss attack you; MMs don't have that problem ("attack my target! attack my target! ah! ah! ah!).

Thanks for all of the input.