Let's talk about a Stone Armor Revamp
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-28 23:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I just got my Dark/Stone Brute to 50. The only noticeable downsides of the set is the -Speed/Travel and -Recharge. The -Recharge I can take, but the -Speed/Travel is killer. I take and use TP, but TP is not a great power for a crutch. I've also got a 50 Warshade so TP use is not new to me, but I shouldn't have to tp over a curb to fight a mob. I can't say I'd cry if they never made a change, but the -speed overly penalizes the set. I understand the impetus was for concept reasons, but -Rech and -Dam is enough of a downside to making the set balanced imo. The -Speed/travel is what makes it unfun. I think the suggestion to make rooted function similarly to grounded with no move penalty (especially since while lvling that is your mez prot power) and halving the move penalty in granite would go a long way to making the set more fun, more playable and not in any way unbalance it in comparison to other layered mitigation sets like Dark Armor and Invincibility.
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You don't have to TP, you could do what so many other ATs do to overcome that weakness. Pop a break free. |
Originally Posted by Sir Hextor
but I shouldn't have to tp over a curb to fight a mob
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It's not like you need to do it often, so you don't need to carry too many.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Revamp? Nuh!
Remove the movement penalty from rooted. That is all.
THEN- allow some time to pass so the change can be data mined and some actual opinions can be formed if anything else needs to be looked at.
Essentially, rooted is a forgotten leftover from game launch when the devthink was movement penalties are a good mechanic for tankers! Well, no it wasnt, thats why it got taken off of invuln. It is NOT FUN. Hence, it should get removed from rooted so players can choose to run non-granite and move freely with lesser def values, or "tank up" and get some penalties for it. As it is, the player is penalized for both methods for no good reason and the result is granite only builds cause who in their right mind would stack armors when you cant move either way?
Granite as it is currently is a unique, interesting mechanic. NO TOUCH!! At least, not until there is a suitable option in place to use the set without it. Then we can come back to it.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I would be more interested in drawbacks that were not really drawbacks.
 That said, I do love the idea of an Earth TP as you describe, and with the right animation time it would still be a negative, so your idea is pretty cool. |
It still a drawback, because you still have to stick to Teleport and can't just jump. The only difference versus the way it currently works is the dropping of a pool power. It's less of a drawback compared to now, for sure, but not a free ride.
Stone Armor is like Spines. The reason it hasn't been touched in so long, is because any attempt to 're-balance' it, would necessitate a complete overhaul of the set. You can't just remove the movement and recharge penalty and say it's golden, after all. The OP idea of spreading the is interesting... except the part where it suggests running up to 7 toggles at once, JUST from the single set.
If this ever gets ported to Scrappers (or even Stalkers, though that seems unlikely at this point...) I expect this powerset to be changed to a point of being almost unrecognizable from its current form. But until then, it will remain one of the CoX Elephants in the Room.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Stone Armor isn't going to be touched by the devs without getting some kind of nerf, likely severe ones. They said as much to me when I suggested a few fixes so that a Stone character could actually participate in a Seed of Hamidon event without just leeching off the seedlings at ground level.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Stone Armor is like Spines. The reason it hasn't been touched in so long, is because any attempt to 're-balance' it, would necessitate a complete overhaul of the set. You can't just remove the movement and recharge penalty and say it's golden, after all. The OP idea of spreading the is interesting... except the part where it suggests running up to 7 toggles at once, JUST from the single set.
If this ever gets ported to Scrappers (or even Stalkers, though that seems unlikely at this point...) I expect this powerset to be changed to a point of being almost unrecognizable from its current form. But until then, it will remain one of the CoX Elephants in the Room. |
Stone characters are like Daleks, easily thwarted by something as simple as a staircase, or a curb, or a 2-foot drop. Unlike Daleks, Stones can't just level the place to avoid dealing with it.
Humor finished, time for business here. I don't see 7 toggles as being too much, really. Build properly and they don't drain your endurance too fast, or even better, they drain slower than you recover. Push comes to shove, pack a few blues. Of course, this comes from the perspective of a player whose main is a Crab that runs 9 toggles at all times and has over 60% ranged Defense when solo, without even having Hybrid unlocked yet.
Building Stone so that the basic four armors can be run together with Rooted and Mud Pots is trivial. Pair it with elec melee for an almost cheating fix, but that applies to any other hungry set. Mitigation of endurance use is something that everyone has to deal with. Some sets and combinations have it easier than others.
The nerf is coming, one way or another. There will be a point where critical mass on this set is reached and the devs finally end up taking a look at it to make corrections to something they should have looked at a long time ago.
There should be reasonable suggestions out there for what they do rather than having them pull a regen on it when the time finally comes.
I agree that 7 toggles in a set, and needing them all, is not totally a bad thing. Ok, maybe not 7..cause most other sets have 3-5? More if the case or dark armour..but you can argue those 2 'offensive' ones can be alternated.
Stone would have..Rock armour, Brimstone, Crystal, Minerals..and Granite. Added to mudpots and rooted. Actually..changed my mind..that is a LOT.
But again..tweak the powers. The first 4 could stand to have much lower end costs, since atm, their cost seems based on a 'normal' set, and the idea if you dont have granite, you run all 4 (or 3..i forget if Minerals is exclusive). Lower the cost assuming the building together idea suggested, with granite coming last and capping off the set.
I mean capping as in, finishing. Not capping res or anything. The values before granite should NOT be as high as someone said..70% res, 20% def. Thats an insane amount without a tier 9. Only Invul could get near it, all while only hitting 70% on s/l.
Maybe 50-60% res to most? Some defence.
Then you would have a set with 7 toggles, a passive, and a heal click. Which is pretty similar to others. SR is a very pick hungry set..you basically want all 9. Invul also (i guess tanks could skip a passive and Unstop)..likewise Regen..you want nearly everything.
As long as the powers are actually worth taking..
I also love the idea of an inbuilt teleport, movement. Thinking something like teh Glacius guy in Killer Instinct, who melds into the ground and moves. Could be a bit much work though.
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I agree, that suggestion was especially out of line considering the current version of Granite itself only gives +50% resists to all but psi, and the only capped resist without slotting granite for resist instead of defense is Toxic from earth's Embrace stacking with the native 50% in Granite, current AND proposed. With three SO's of resist and 3 SO's of Defense slotted in, granite alone has 31.2% defense and 78% resist to ALL types of damage except Psi. With Stone Skin, S/L is 88, with a single +resist SO slotted into Stone Skin, that's 90% resist and capped for S/L.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
I agree that 7 toggles in a set, and needing them all, is not totally a bad thing. Ok, maybe not 7..cause most other sets have 3-5? More if the case or dark armour..but you can argue those 2 'offensive' ones can be alternated.
Stone would have..Rock armour, Brimstone, Crystal, Minerals..and Granite. Added to mudpots and rooted. Actually..changed my mind..that is a LOT. But again..tweak the powers. The first 4 could stand to have much lower end costs, since atm, their cost seems based on a 'normal' set, and the idea if you dont have granite, you run all 4 (or 3..i forget if Minerals is exclusive). Lower the cost assuming the building together idea suggested, with granite coming last and capping off the set. I mean capping as in, finishing. Not capping res or anything. The values before granite should NOT be as high as someone said..70% res, 20% def. Thats an insane amount without a tier 9. Only Invul could get near it, all while only hitting 70% on s/l. Maybe 50-60% res to most? Some defence. Then you would have a set with 7 toggles, a passive, and a heal click. Which is pretty similar to others. SR is a very pick hungry set..you basically want all 9. Invul also (i guess tanks could skip a passive and Unstop)..likewise Regen..you want nearly everything. As long as the powers are actually worth taking.. I also love the idea of an inbuilt teleport, movement. Thinking something like teh Glacius guy in Killer Instinct, who melds into the ground and moves. Could be a bit much work though. |
Ironically, the +resist from an even-level SO in that default slot for Stone Skin is more powerful in it's +resist than a +5'd Steadfast Unique, which only reaches 89.63% S/L resist combined with Granite. It does, of course, add that 3% global defense.
I just want to restate this yet again: My proposed changes for this set would result in no net gain or loss to the survivability of the set IN GRANITE from what we currently have on Live. It would instead buff the other armors to Granite baseline in what they already do, bringing minerals down to a baseline of 20% before enhancements, and then Granite would drain the +defense to Psi from Minerals while leaving the magnitude 30 Confuse protection active, and 'use' that power from Minerals to fill in the holes for the other powers.
Do you have Rock Armor toggled on? Great, Granite gives a baseline +50% Smashing/Lethal resist if Rock armor is on. Do you have brimstone on? Granite fills in the missing +20% base defense to Fire/Cold. Is Crystal Armor detoggled? Granite doesn't bother filling in the 50% E/N resist since you haven't bothered defending. What are you facing, level 54 Hellions?
That's the thing that most people forget about Stone Armor because they never bother really learning it. Each armor is useful against distinct types of damage. If you aren't facing Fire/Cold damage, why do you even have Brimstone on?
Oh, and before anyone says that the idea above where a power has different effects based on whether or not another power is active is impossible? You're wrong. They found a way to do it for Bio armor. Standard Code Rant and all that, yeah, but something tells me it would be a good way to fix Stone by importing the same ideas.
I'd be mostly happy with the set if the movement penalties were a great deal less irritating and didn't disallow nearly all movement powers. I'd be completely mollified if Granite were customizable along with that.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Perhaps make Granite Armor a super-awesome 'Absorb' power now that we have such an effect in game?
Granite Armor becomes a 'not suckage' click power that stacks extremely well due to it's absorbtion nature.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
That;s a good idea too. Since we are going to have..TWO sets using absorb and nothing else. Well..the tank and fender ato procs (round 2) have it also.
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Not to be confrontational, but this toon of yours, I assume it is running on SO's. Because just up thread, you were the one saying that the game is balanced around them and not IO's. I know I am not the best build maker, so please understand that the one thing that made my stone tank bearable on SO's was that I could just run granite, and not have to run 5+ toggles draining my end dry. And even then, I had to use every trick available at the time in order to not toggle drop. I was pretty aggressive though... Now with IOes, one has a choice to build to negate stone armours penalties, or build to negate granite. |
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Humor finished, time for business here. I don't see 7 toggles as being too much, really. Build properly and they don't drain your endurance too fast, or even better, they drain slower than you recover. Push comes to shove, pack a few blues. Of course, this comes from the perspective of a player whose main is a Crab that runs 9 toggles at all times and has over 60% ranged Defense when solo, without even having Hybrid unlocked yet.
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I now look at granite as a true oh crap power that is crashless. Looked at in that light, I will take a bit of a damage and recharge debuff over end drain any day.
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| The nerf is coming, one way or another. There will be a point where critical mass on this set is reached and the devs finally end up taking a look at it to make corrections to something they should have looked at a long time ago. |
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| There should be reasonable suggestions out there for what they do rather than having them pull a regen on it when the time finally comes. |
Even if the powers team did take a look at it, I wouldn't be scared that it will be nerfed. If anything, the current team has my full confidence that they will be able to change things around and still maintain the theme and fun of the set while making it perhaps a bit cooler to play.
The only thing I really want for stone, is to be able to walk up a set of stairs. Other than that, I can work around just about anything else.
In this thread, there appear to be two camps.
1. Change the mechanics of the set, redistribute defensive values, or add a new one like TP or absorb
2. Remove the movement penalty in rooted, or granite, or both.
So far, in this thread, there are more players interested in just removing the movement penalty, although we are only on page 2. This is of course a very narrow sample size, but, given the choice between a total overhaul and dropping one number value off of one power, which do you think is more appealing to the dev team when considering a set that has been here since launch?
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Quote:
Fair enough, but I don't think the current powers team is interested in half-measures. If they were, they'd just have made Dimension Shift an immobilize and call it a day on the Grav updates.|
Originally Posted by Eldagore
In this thread, there appear to be two camps.
1. Change the mechanics of the set, redistribute defensive values, or add a new one like TP or absorb 2. Remove the movement penalty in rooted, or granite, or both. So far, in this thread, there are more players interested in just removing the movement penalty, although we are only on page 2. This is of course a very narrow sample size, but, given the choice between a total overhaul and dropping one number value off of one power, which do you think is more appealing to the dev team when considering a set that has been here since launch? |
I'd love for Rooted to lose the -Jump, but I don't know if that would solve the Jekyll and Hyde feel of the set.
Global name: @k26dp
not a ton of Stone experience here, but my brute is 27 and I'm really enjoying him so far.
He may not be high enough for Granite yet, but he's certainly high enough for me to have become thoroughly disenchanted with Rooted. The movement pentalty & inability to jump is a ridiculous price to pay for status protection. It seems to me a relic of a previous regieme's balance ethos- remember when status protection on /inv meant you couldn't move at all? Game balance through player irritation/annoyance is an old philosophy that is happily largely extinct aside from a few remaining exceptions like Rooted.
Another old problem still present in /stone is incompatible toggles.
DA was originally a nightmare of incompatible toggles, which they eventually fixed.
Granite may be all that, but making it incompatible with all your other defensive toggles is an old, bad idea and it should be changed, even if that means reducing its stand-alone efficiency.
(the whole toggle thing HAS to be a Jack Emmert hangup- I remember when his "fun solution" to the 'problem' of Instant Healing was to make Instant Healing incompatible with Integration? *eyeroll*)
I'm having fun with the set and I'll keep playing it regardless, but those two old style design quirks strike me as the place to make whatever changes may come.
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See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I only have one Stone Armor character, but she's a level 50 Stone/fire that I parked after the hassle of dealing with just getting her on enough teams to get her basic Spiritual Alpha. I have been fiddling with builds ENDLESSLY in mids to try and figure out the best ways to build for effectiveness both in and out of granite, but with the current bug that always displays run speed at 1.4mph it's a little hard to know what's useful to counteract the immense slows.
I consider my experience with Stone armor from playing it more valuable than my time trying to fix it. In the end, though, Stone is a relic that needs some serious polish.
The only way it will GET that polish is if there are some nerfs that come with reexamining the set. THIS WAS TOLD TO ME DURING THE ISSUE 21 BETA. I have no reason to believe that this stance has changed yet.
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I'd have no problem trading some of the "balance" imposed by the annoying QOL penalties the set brings to the table for a reduction in game efficiency. |
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
The only way it will GET that polish is if there are some nerfs that come with reexamining the set. THIS WAS TOLD TO ME DURING THE ISSUE 21 BETA. I have no reason to believe that this stance has changed yet. |
There are far better ways to balance a set than sure it's amazing, but we'll make it so annoying no one will WANT to play it.
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My City Was Gone
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This looks a lot like posts I have made in the past on the subject. You and I are on the exact same page on this one, goat. I do think though that they should alter rooted first, and then let players have a go with the set for a while before messing with granite.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
not a ton of Stone experience here, but my brute is 27 and I'm really enjoying him so far.
He may not be high enough for Granite yet, but he's certainly high enough for me to have become thoroughly disenchanted with Rooted. The movement pentalty & inability to jump is a ridiculous price to pay for status protection. It seems to me a relic of a previous regieme's balance ethos- remember when status protection on /inv meant you couldn't move at all? Game balance through player irritation/annoyance is an old philosophy that is happily largely extinct aside from a few remaining exceptions like Rooted. Another old problem still present in /stone is incompatible toggles. DA was originally a nightmare of incompatible toggles, which they eventually fixed. Granite may be all that, but making it incompatible with all your other defensive toggles is an old, bad idea and it should be changed, even if that means reducing its stand-alone efficiency. (the whole toggle thing HAS to be a Jack Emmert hangup- I remember when his "fun solution" to the 'problem' of Instant Healing was to make Instant Healing incompatible with Integration? *eyeroll*) I'm having fun with the set and I'll keep playing it regardless, but those two old style design quirks strike me as the place to make whatever changes may come. |
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Quote:
Agreed rooted needs the slow and -jump removed, there is no reason to keep it except for concept. which the power already breaks by letting people walk. Just change to power so that the regen only works on the ground like grounded does. Sort of like Antaeus.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
not a ton of Stone experience here, but my brute is 27 and I'm really enjoying him so far.
He may not be high enough for Granite yet, but he's certainly high enough for me to have become thoroughly disenchanted with Rooted. The movement pentalty & inability to jump is a ridiculous price to pay for status protection. It seems to me a relic of a previous regieme's balance ethos- remember when status protection on /inv meant you couldn't move at all? Game balance through player irritation/annoyance is an old philosophy that is happily largely extinct aside from a few remaining exceptions like Rooted. Another old problem still present in /stone is incompatible toggles. DA was originally a nightmare of incompatible toggles, which they eventually fixed. Granite may be all that, but making it incompatible with all your other defensive toggles is an old, bad idea and it should be changed, even if that means reducing its stand-alone efficiency. (the whole toggle thing HAS to be a Jack Emmert hangup- I remember when his "fun solution" to the 'problem' of Instant Healing was to make Instant Healing incompatible with Integration? *eyeroll*) I'm having fun with the set and I'll keep playing it regardless, but those two old style design quirks strike me as the place to make whatever changes may come. |
I disagree with making granite stack with the rest of the toggles in stone. Well not really disagree, it is just granite would be completely overhauled before it has a chance to happen, much to the outrage of a lot of the stoners out there. I just don't see Granite staying a toggle and being balanced. The numbers would be too low as a toggle compared to the clicks in other sets. I can see lowering its numbers some making it a click and adding the new absorption mechanic, but then that is me there will be people outraged with any change to granite.
Dirges
1st 50 was a Stoner/SS.
Halve the -Rech, -Dam, and -Runspd in Granite.
Halve the -Runspd in Rooted.
Fixt.
Is powerful enuff, even with SOs. Reduce the 'costs', and is still a penalty for use.
Personally don't mind looking like a Dev Earth peon....
Can you tell I'm so frustrated, I'd be happy with ANYTHING? Toon worthless in most Incarnate content b/c of Big Circles of Death.
Can I trademark that? 'BCoD'?
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I admit having zero experience with granite- hit 28 last night.|
Originally Posted by Dirges
I disagree with making granite stack with the rest of the toggles in stone. Well not really disagree, it is just granite would be completely overhauled before it has a chance to happen, much to the outrage of a lot of the stoners out there. I just don't see Granite staying a toggle and being balanced. The numbers would be too low as a toggle compared to the clicks in other sets. I can see lowering its numbers some making it a click and adding the new absorption mechanic, but then that is me there will be people outraged with any change to granite.
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But I dislike toggles that disallow other powers on a philosophical level.
Of course, I may feel differently about it once I get Granite... =P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Yeah, this. I love my Stone/Stone Tanker, but there's some trials where he just dies over and over, because he frequently can't move fast enough to get away from the Instant Death Area (whether it be purple circles or Flow Lightning). He's also not exactly great at things like the middle part of the Lambda trial.|
Originally Posted by Bigfeeler
Can you tell I'm so frustrated, I'd be happy with ANYTHING? Toon worthless in most Incarnate content b/c of Big Circles of Death.
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Bear in mind that I try to stay out of Granite as much as possible, due to the recharge and damage penalties. I didn't respec out of all my other armors; I turn them on and off as needed. (And in the Incarnate trials, I need all of them). So even running JUST Rooted, with loads of +Runspeed buffs, he's still about as maneuverable as... a rock.
Stone Armor was designed for a very different game than the one that has Incarnate trials in it.
To the OP: (I didn't bother reading any other responses because I don't really care what they have to say) No. Don't stack Granite with the other armors. On my Stone/Mace tanker, I'm well above soft cap in S/L/E/Ne/Psi and about 50% fire resist as well as decent S/L resist (43%). Those who run perma-granite are gimping themselves and seem to enjoy doing nothing but soak damage for the team. The individual defense types of Rock Armor and Crystal Armor could be increased, sure, but I don't agree with the school of thought that seems to see Granite Armor as the only viable power in the set. I have Granite Armor, sure, but I use it as was intended - an oh sh*t button. I don't relish the prospect of running around in Granite 24/7, so don't advocate as though all Stone/ tankers do.
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
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*weeps bitter tears of rejection*
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Originally Posted by BlueRidger
To the OP: (I didn't bother reading any other responses because I don't really care what they have to say)
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
That said, I do love the idea of an Earth TP as you describe, and with the right animation time it would still be a negative, so your idea is pretty cool.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.