Psionic Damage - Definitely Not Exotic
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2012-06-24 24:20 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
That is, I suspect, why Psi Blast powers (bolts of psychic energy that physically travel to the target) have positional tags, while Mind Control powers (nothing to dodge, just attack the mind directly) do not.
It's not particularly fair to SR characters, or anyone else relying almost exclusively on positional defense, true.
I simply can't agree that Psionic is 'Not Exotic' but you list Cold damage as Exotic.
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance: an exotic hairstyle.
This is really where we get into semantics and qualitative judgements, so I understand if opinions vary.
I'd suggest that Psionic damage is exotic for the two major reasons:
1. That as a damage type it is not consistently mitigated by defence sets where as most other damage types are. It is treated unusually - most sets provide a respectable measure of protection to the major types - smashing, lethal, energy, negative energy, fire and cold. Some may provide this protection in differing forms and some thematically may vary in their degree. But on the whole, those types of damage are significantly mitigated by defence powersets. Psychic and toxic are treated very, very differently.
2. That amongst enemies their resistances are quite polarised - either with very high resistances (robots for example) or very low resistances (most of everything else). This is from the ancient (and perhaps outdated?) spreadsheet where Psychic damage had a surprisingly high 'average' rate of resistance due to a few enemies having extreme levels while many others had normal (0%) levels. I say average because it was not a weighted average so is not representative of this.
Conclusion (TL;DR): Psychic damage may be becoming more common, but it is still treated by both player and enemies very differently to the other types of damage.
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Quite a few consider the Stone Armor shields as filler until you get to Granite Armor. Granite + Rooted + Earth's Embrace is a power set all its own, and the other shields are just things you have to take until you reach 32/38.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I wouldn't presume Stone = Granite and put it in the weak category even with the disclaimer [...]
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I know this isn't a universally-held sentiment, but if you drop Granite just to toggle on Minerals, you're making yourself vulnerable to the other damage types in the process. For this reason, I put Stone Armor in the "weakness" category.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
[...] I very specifically wouldn't classify Super Reflexes as strong against psionics.A significant percentage of psionic attacks are non-positional, and SR has zero protection against those.
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Mind Control (and derived works):
- Dominate
- Mesmerize
- Terrify
- Blind
- World of Confusion
- Death Cry (something Circle of Thorns has; not sure what it does)
- Enrapture (Incarnate Tsoo Herald)
- Mass Hypnosis (Malaise)
- Mass Hypnosis (Stheno)
- Psionic Lightning (used by the vortex in MoM)
- Shared Suffering Burst (MoM)
- Suffer in Silence (MoM)
- Terrifying Visage (Lamashtu)
- Total Domination (Malaise)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fact its a specific long-standing complaint I have lodged with the devs that SR's description and other comments about SR clearly indicate the set's intent was to "dodge attacks regardless of damage type" but non-positional psi breaks that intent in a non-trivial way.
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Of the powers that qualify, Dominate and Mesmerize are probably the most common, and you'll find those with Equinox Adjutants/Archons, Rikti Mentalists/Mesmerists and... not a whole lot else, at least not in the upper level range. Illusionists will spam you with Blind. Herald will surely use Enrapture a lot. Still, in the grand scheme of things, that's 4 specific enemies to watch out for.
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And just for the sake of curiosity, I ran the numbers for powers that deal Psionic damage but aren't tagged with the Psionic attack type:
- (One of the Psionic Melee powers that I can't talk about)
- Death Cry (CoT)
- Energy Torrent (Decoy Phantasm)
- Exhausting Venom (Lamashtu)
- Eye of the Storm (Staff Fighting; Form of the Mind)
- Power Bolt (Decoy Phantasm)
- Sky Splitter (Staff Fighting; Form of the Mind)
- Shared Suffering Burst (MoM)
- Suffer in Silence (MoM)
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I had a list once of all the high level critters that wield non-positional psi and I recall it being longer than four. I'll have to go back and look again.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news (don't shoot the messenger!), but non-positional psi is nearly unheard of in the game, let alone "breaking" Super Reflexes. There are 5, maybe 6 powers you'll be encountering in general game play (and Terrify isn't exactly common) that deal Psionic damage and that Super Reflexes won't protect you from. The rest are either boss- or trial-specific.
Of the powers that qualify, Dominate and Mesmerize are probably the most common, and you'll find those with Equinox Adjutants/Archons, Rikti Mentalists/Mesmerists and... not a whole lot else, at least not in the upper level range. Illusionists will spam you with Blind. Herald will surely use Enrapture a lot. Still, in the grand scheme of things, that's 4 specific enemies to watch out for. |
However, lets just take Carnies. Illusionists spam it, and Master Illusionists spam it, and Master Illusionists summon three pets that spam it. That's fairly unique: a boss that spams an attack you have zero protection from, that also casts three pets you have zero protection from, that attack while phase shifted.
I can't find my old lists, but off the top of my head these critters have non-positional psionic attacks that deal damage (as opposed to just mezzes).
High level Critter Types with non-positional psionic damaging attacks:
Carnival of Shadows Illusionist
Carnival of Shadows Master Illusionist
Circle of Thorns Possessed (Psionic)
Circle of Thorns Madness Mage
Fifth Column/Council Vampyri Equinox Adjutant
Fifth Column/Council Vampyri Equinox Archon
Rikti Mentalist
Rikti Mesmerist
Paragon Police PPD controller
That doesn't count things like named bosses or other unique critters.
Four of the high level groups you face (assuming you count Fifth and Council as basically the same group) have significant non-positional psi damage. Counted as a distinct damage type, I would bet its not the least common damage type in those critter groups.
The actual number of distinct powers that are typed Psionic_Attack only is not high, but the flip side is that the devs created a lot of mind controller-like critter types in lots of critter groups, from the Tsoo to the Rikti. In fact, it isn't long before an SR scrapper fresh out of the tutorial runs into the Lost. I'm sure not every SR scrapper has heard of non-positional psi, but every one of them has run into a lot of it over their leveling career. Probably more than Cold damage and similar to Toxic damage.
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It gets worse. Even if you manage to hold one before she summons the pets, they can phase while held, leaving you unable to keep the magnitude stacked, and creating a good possibility that she'll just summon them anyway the instant the hold wears off.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
However, lets just take Carnies. Illusionists spam it, and Master Illusionists spam it, and Master Illusionists summon three pets that spam it. That's fairly unique: a boss that spams an attack you have zero protection from, that also casts three pets you have zero protection from, that attack while phase shifted.
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IOW, MIs suck for everyone, except possibly Dark Armor tanks.
If what we can take away from this is that "Super Reflexes is weak to Blind, Mesmerize and Dominate," I think I'm still okay calling it strong against Psionic. (-:
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I'm ok with you calling SR strong against psionic also, because I'm just going to tell Synapse we should make SR as strong against psionic as GuyPerfect's guides say it is. |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
If what we can take away from this is that "Super Reflexes is weak to Blind, Mesmerize and Dominate," I think I'm still okay calling it strong against Psionic. (-:
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Hmm funny with my kat/SR I hunt down +4x8 carnies quiet alot and master illusionist or illusionist were never able to touch me (except for ocaasional %5 chance but even than I never used inspirations and I don't have aid self). I have 0 psi defense so either they don't do non-positional psi damage or I am extremely lucky that for about 2 years yet to meet carnies that actually use that power.
I checked the powers. Illusionist Blind is definitely only typed Psionic. If they keep missing you, it's not because of Super Reflexes.
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Blind and the Mind Control attacks that have historically been typed psionic only are still psionic only as of I23. There is frankly no way for an SR scrapper to not notice +4 illusionists and MIs scoring with Blind short of having a huge amount of psionic defense from somewhere else. I would need video evidence for that one.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I checked the powers. Illusionist Blind is definitely only typed Psionic. If they keep missing you, it's not because of Super Reflexes.
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Well, that's how I fly (more like "miss" the ground though instead of dodge). And if I don't understand why someone is yelling at me, did I dodge their mental assault? I think that's what is taught in marriage counseling. |
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
But "I dodge the mental assault" makes about as much sense as "I dodge the ground."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
...[I]t would be more proper to say this game is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly dying.
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Technically, by any sort of logic the devs got Blind and Spectral Wounds reversed on typing. Technically, Blind is a physical attack on the eyes. Spectral Wounds is an illusory attack on the mind.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
That is, I suspect, why Psi Blast powers (bolts of psychic energy that physically travel to the target) have positional tags, while Mind Control powers (nothing to dodge, just attack the mind directly) do not.
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In fact, Blind is actually a physical pseudo-AoE.
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I'm thinking that what probably happened was that the Blind attacks landed, but because they do no damage, weren't "noticed" by the SR scrapper thanks to Practiced Brawler (possibly double stacked at the time?) providing enough Mag Protection to not get Held (which would have been the thing to notice). You know how Scrapperlock goes, Arcanaville ... |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Blind and the Mind Control attacks that have historically been typed psionic only are still psionic only as of I23. There is frankly no way for an SR scrapper to not notice +4 illusionists and MIs scoring with Blind short of having a huge amount of psionic defense from somewhere else. I would need video evidence for that one.
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*Snrk* Dude, are you Blind? *Snrk*|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
[...] the Blind attacks landed, but because they do no damage [...]
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More specifically, a +4 MI should hit for about 355 damage with Blind at 54 vs level 50 player. 325 if you're +1 shifted to 51. The Lts 145-155. You should at least notice if four or five of them are firing at you with ~800 point volleys even through the haze of scrapper lock.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
I'm thinking that what probably happened was that the Blind attacks landed, but because they do no damage, weren't "noticed" by the SR scrapper thanks to Practiced Brawler (possibly double stacked at the time?) providing enough Mag Protection to not get Held (which would have been the thing to notice). You know how Scrapperlock goes, Arcanaville ...
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I've noticed Blind hitting through SR since before I knew what "non-positional typing" was. Now that I think about it, I might have been the one to coin the phrase "non-positional psi" specifically to complain about this problem.
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I'd say dodging a psi assault makes as much sense as not dodging it. It's not a real thing or based on anything real so who's to say you can't mentally dodge it. Maybe you think happy thoughts or focus or go all act-without-acting-zen-mind and it misses. It's as reasonable as it "hitting" and doing some damage but not full because you resisted it.|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Sound in a mechanical way, I suppose, but thematically I have a problem with positional Psionic damage. Telekinesis-themed attacks should be Crushing, sometimes Lethal, perhaps sometimes with a psionic "aftertaste." But "I dodge the mental assault" makes about as much sense as "I dodge the ground."
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Specifically for positional defense, maybe it's a visible packet of energy that you can dodge. You can use your 100% psi damage attack to break through doors and beat up robots so it must have some kind of purely physical manifestation so if it's physical, it could possibly be dodged (after all people dodge lasers in the game which should be moving at the speed of light so a blob of mean thoughts might be a cake walk in comparison).
Pinnacle
Glowworm * Brrr * Lilinoe
Protector
Kid Trance * Ms. Impala * Red Helen
Virtue
Pooka Pete
Sound in a mechanical way, I suppose, but thematically I have a problem with positional Psionic damage. Telekinesis-themed attacks should be Crushing, sometimes Lethal, perhaps sometimes with a psionic "aftertaste." But "I dodge the mental assault" makes about as much sense as "I dodge the ground."